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I am outraged by Real Clear Popular Vote Analysis

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Not outraged by the Politico column?

Where do I start?

 1. After the primary season is over, we will count primaries only, and add Florida.  I will give in on not adding Michigan, though as a Michigander, I am outraged by what Dean did to us. There will be several ways to look at the popular vote.  Remember Florida 2000?  The results were examined under at least 9 difference set of assumptions.  Here are the assumptions on the popular vote, and likely winners:

    1. Sanctioned primaries and caucuses, with estimates.  Obama likely wins
    2. Sanctioned primaries only (no caucuses, which are un-democratic, and will likely never be used again).  Michigan and Florida are not in here. Obama likely winner
    3. Sanctioned primaries, caucuses, and Florida.  Clinton likely winner, but this will be very tight.  Hillary is going to win PA by over 300,000 votes
    4. Sanctioned primaries, caucuses, Florida, and Michigan, but Obama gets all uncommitted in Michigan: Clinton likely wins
    5. Sanctioned primaries, caucuses, Florida and Michigan, with only Hillary’s vote counting in Michigan (Obama knew he would lose so he took his name off the ballot). Clinton wins
    6. All primaries, with Florida and Michigan (Obama gets uncommitted).  Caucuses are out.  Clinton likely wins.

 

  1. Let’s start using the electoral college analysis that will performed by the major polling outfits.  If you combine this data with the different popular vote scenarios above, you will find that Clinton has a legitimate case to be made. 
    1. Let’s tale the midpoint of the scenarios above, and say the popular vote is about 50-50.  That is close to what it will be, though I am inclined to believe that Clinton will be ahead by a point (under certain scenarios).  What we will have is Clinton winning 50% of the vote but only about 47% of the delegates (though this will likely be 52-48 at the end).  That tells you that the delegate selection system is unfair and undemocratic.  Let’s be consistent democrats: if we believe in popular vote, let’s believe in popular vote.
    2. The number of states won is totally and completely bogus.  It is irrelevant in any evaluation, and needs to be omitted from any discussion.  In this scenario, Americans abroad, with 22,000 votes, counts as much as the 2.7 million Texas voters.  And that big Obama win in the Virgin Islands is as important as California?  If we want to start counting states, here is how to count: What is the electoral college vote totals of states won by Clinton and Obama.  Ok, that does not make sense?  Well it makes more sense than equating the Virgin Islands with California.  Of course, this state total is supported by the Obama for President channel, aka MSBNC.
    3. Can you say 527 group and Wright?  It will be grainier than a Willie Horton ad.

 

  1. Conclusion: The Politico column, like you JM, and the entire MSNBC Obama for President Channel (sans Pat B), see everything through Obama-colored glasses.  This is the bias in the media.  It is not as simple as anti-Clinton bias, though that certainly exists.  Example: Russert states that if Michigan and Florida count, black people will riot in the streets of Denver (he does not say it like this, but that is his conclusion).  He says this cannot be fair.  But what about the other perspective; lets say Michigan and Florida are given 50-50 as Obama wants.  Why is this not totally unfair to Clinton?  You, JM, and Russert and Matthews and Dowd and Gloria B, as well as all the other Obama-chill up their leg crowd only see the race from Obama’s perspective.

 

  1. The race card:
    1. Obama is very talented and gave a nice speech.
    2. Obama joined the Wright church to enhance his street cred in the Chicago black political community.
    3. The Clinton campaign, with very high probability, had the Wright clips all along, but chose not to use them.  Yet Bill Clinton’s comments are called coded racism, and called the ghettoization of Obama.  If the Clintons wanted to use the race card, they would have pushed the Wright tapes much earlier than the republicans have.

 

  1. As a Hillary fan, here is my objective view:
    1. I have watched almost all 20 debates, and she is simply more prepared and more knowledgeable than Obama.  I know others think grasp of issues is not as important as vision and choirs, but that is my bias.  They are both good, but she is simply better than him. 
    2. She should have pushed her Senate experience, reaching across the aisle, more than her first lady experience.  Obama has never reached across the aisle.  We heard he did this in the Illinois legislature.  We also heard W. did this in the Texas statehouse.  Hillary is respected by colleagues on both sides of the aisle.
    3. The 47% of people who oppose Hillary is based on irrational fears and biases.  Can this be changed?  Absolutely.  What JM and others in the media have never discussed is how Hillary, as the nominee, will get a serious look by the country, and an examination that is not based on Monica or her 1993 health care initiative.  People will see what we have during the primary season, and her negatives will go lower; the 527’s cannot bring up stuff we do not know about her, and people will grow to respect her.
    4. The red phone ad was lame, and likely moved less people than is claimed.

 


Comments (53)

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I think one of the big issues that Hillary has to overcome is the war vote. It did not help that the 600,000 pages study that showed no connection between Al Quiada and Iraq came out. It was just another point to why the war sucks big time.

For a progressive lefty leaning Democrat, that vote and the Kyle-Lieberman amendment was her Senate resume. Even though I was leaning towards voting for her at the beginning of this primary, it was not based on her Senate work, but on the sympathy that she had gotten from me during her time as First Lady and how strong I thought that she was during the difficult times. It was a woman to woman thing.

So it may have been good strategy for her to use her First Lady experience more than her Senate experience because of the war and her First Lady experience was more sympathizing.

But this did not accure to me until I read your post :) So I hope I made a little sense :)

Janeo

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I'm not sure how you can be objective yet admit you're bias. Objectivity is not based off opinion.

Howard, thank you so much for your post!

I feel for the folks in Michigan and Florida, but don't blame Dean. Your legislatures got you in this mess - direct your anger there. It would be different if they weren't warned, but they were and they spit in the party's eye anyway. It stinks for the individual voters who had little say in the events, but direct your venom where it belongs.

I didn't read your post past the rant about Florida and Michigan.

So that you know...

The rules were established over a period of many months. Michigan (Sen Levin, and Debbie Dingell) and Florida (Meek) both had representation on the core commission that crafted the rules. They interviewed dozens of other Democrats. The rules were then finalized by yet another committee before finally being ratified by nearly 450 Democrats from acroos the nation.

The common voters of the states voted their representatives to state office of their own volition, if those same representatives make a stupid choice - so be it. The states brought their misery upon themselves.

This is a Democratic Republic - you lives with the decisions of the folks you voted in to speak for you on a myriad of issues. The voters of both states therefore - did get a chance to vote.

The decision to strip Michigan and Florida was done by committee, and on that committee sat several big guns from the Clinton campaign, including Harold Ickes who cast to strip.

So you know - your argument dies in the first paragraph. I cannot trust - given your apparent lack of knowledge pertinent to the first argument - why would I waste time on the rest of the post?

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I agree with tpartier...

We can rehash, re-explain, re-visit the Florida Michigan mess one more time, if you wish. But Howard Dean didn't create the problem. Nor did either of the candidates, although one of them (the one of the female persuasion) weaseled on pledges and promises that her opponents were forthright about.

But finally, one thing you must grasp: This is not about the "popular vote. This isn't high school and Hillary isn't Tracy Flick.

This is about delegates. It takes delegates to win, and Hillary is behind. Without continuing her scorched earth, bring out your bigots campaign, she will not win. Ed Rendell said as much today on the telly.

Clinton and her supporters need to begin the "acceptance" phase of their grief because of her loss.

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But NH screwed with the rules too.without penalty. So much for fairness!

Hmmm, lets see
1. Sanctioned primaries and caucuses - you know, the legal ones - Obama wins
2. But if you throw out the caucuses, cause Hillary didn't win them, even though many states have historically used them and will continue to do so - Obama wins because your scenario is faulty
3. Sanctioned primaries, caucuses and Florida - Obama still wins, just ask John King, he'll bring up his touch screen map
and so on
and so on
and so on
Final scenario, the good witch from Kansas waives her wand over Hillary who clicks her heels three times and....Hillary Wins!!

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That was quite funny

You got me on this one

Good work showing the bias of the media slants. If anyone is unsure of the media bias towards Clinton, take a hard look at MSNBC, CNN or ABC blogs on any given day (Jake Tapper is the most vapid pseudo-journalist in my book). The only criticism I'd make is your assumption about the caucuses. I agree that they are less democratic but how can you count them out at this point? Is there a serious move to eliminate them in the future? Anyway,I hope that the whole system is reformed, standardized and pushed in to as democratic a direction as is practically possible (starting with the super delegates).

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Total popular vote count does not represent ANYTHING MEANINGFUL. How many participants are there in a caucus and in a primary? Correct, primaries have several dozen times more voters than caucuses. So caucus sates' outcomes practically don't count! That's 15 states! People say disenfranchising two states (which broke the rules) would be a great injustice. How about disenfranchising 15 states which played by the rules?!

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Howard, face the facts,Obama's got it in the bag.I know it's not easy to accept, particularly when the clintons are trashing the party and thier reputations while cribbing from Rove's playbook. It's a real shame Bill and Hill have endorsed McCain as part of their kitchen sink attack, as there was the possibilty of a unity ticket before they got truly ugly with the fear and smear stuff. To quote Bill "in the primaries you fall in love, in the general you fall in line" Take some time, deal with it, then let's send McCain back to AZ.

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If Barack is the nominee, he will have my 100% support. I just want it to be fair, and lets see where the popular vote falls.

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Which popular vote totals are you going to be looking for? There are multiple ways to view them, as this poster has so graciously provided.

Personally, I think it was a big mistake to remove Florida and Michigan delegates, but at this point there isn't really a good way to go back and fix it. To include Michigan, Hillary is given her 300,000+ votes, and Obama receives 0. That is clearly wrong.

Caucuses aren't my favorite approach, but they have been used for years, and were part of the nomination process from the beginning. To take the totals out of the popular vote seems very wrong.

I still have some issues with Obama, but I have to say that the one thing that impresses me most about him is the way he has run his campaign. He assessed the requirements to win, contested every state, followed the DNC guidance, and financed his campaign well. He spends his money wisely, and pays his bills on time. As the nomination process was laid out from the start, he has emerged as a clear winner. I am not saying that the nomination process is 100% fair, or that he will continue to win, but he did a darn good job planning and carrying out a campaign.

"no caucuses, which are un-democratic, and will likely never be used again"

Serious question here. Can anyone show me who was arguing that caucuses are undemocratic BEFORE this primary season?

"Obama has never reached across the aisle."

This is just false. For one piece of evidence, there's the Lugar-Obama Bill, which passed in May 2006, a bipartisan effort to keep weapons in the former Soviet Union from falling into terrorist hands.


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Phoebe, the reason you never heard the "caucuses are undemocratic" argument before is that it is bogus b.s. I do not recall any of the Hillary people arguing that Iowa was undemocratic until they loss. Nothing but the sourest of sour grapes.

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Caucuses are undemocratic because:

1. It is not a secret ballot. This is the biggest problem. If you are there with your boss, are you going to support the candidate you really want? On the margin, some will not do so. The lack of a secret ballot is a HUGE issue, and it is why there will likely never be caucuses used again.

2. Due to the time commitment, the number of people participating in caucuses is minimal.

Please explain to me how caucuses are undemocratic? I recommend you define democratic before you make that broad brush statement.

democratic: pertaining to or of the nature of democracy or a democracy.
democracy: government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
Caucuses are democratic. Everyone who attends is given a vote. Nowhere in the definition of democratic does it say you get a secret ballot.

Many residents of less populated states love caucuses because it is free speech and political debate in the public square. Caucuses are also great for building committed grass roots leaderships and party activists.

State party leadership decides how they select their nominating delegates based on DNC rules.

Work to change the system (organize a group to bring about that change!) and what you perceive to be unfair or inappropriate. Right now we have a process in place. Like it or not that is what we have.

I am against the DNC dictating too much to the individual states about how they select nominating delegates. Too much national control is NOT good. Each state has unique needs. The more state and local control, the better the process works at addressing those needs. Call me a Blue Federalist if you will.

Don't forget the Obama-Coburn Transparency Bill - it's the reason why we have access to earmarks and information on gov't spending.

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On caucuses:

If Hillary thinks they are so "undemocratic", she should take the moral high road and renounce all the delegates she got from that very immoral, undemocratic process. Somehow I doubt she will do that, don't you?

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She hardly won any of those, so it would not be that big a deal.

Lack of a secret ballot is not what voting should be about.

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Actually, some caucuses do have a secret ballot. In Iowa, they are done in a room with everyone participating. Agreed - not a secret ballot, but they've done in that way in Iowa for a LONG time - and I've never heard "non-democratic" complaints about it before.

Other caucuses do have a secret ballot. I believe Nebraska was a caucus state this year. The way they did it was that each voter marked their preference on a slip of paper and they stuck it in a box. Then they counted the caucus votes and picked delegates. I refer you to the many pieces of reporting that appeared on the Nebraska caucus.

Also, PLEASE don't diminish the good work he did in Illinois. The comparison to Bush's work in Texas isn't quite apt - Illinois, for all that Chicago pushes it Democratic in National elections, tends to be a pretty red state. Just about every county outside Chicago is conservative-leaning. When Obama was in the state senate, we had a Republican governor (the recently convicted George Ryan) and a Republican legislature.

Not only did Obama cross the aisle to get a lot of great legislation passed, he made friends with his colleagues - Republican and Democrat alike. The legislature here can be extremely partisan, but Obama was universally known as an honest, collegial, hardworking guy. To just dismiss his time in Illinois as "insignificant" is not only wrong, it is Penn-tastically awful.

Here's a link to a list of the bills that Obama sponsored and passed in Illinois.

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/07/29/us/politics/20070730_OBAMA_GRAPHIC.html

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Good work done in Illinois? Chicago his HOMETOWN is the murder capital of the US. Nice job Barack

What a stupid reply. Do you honestly believe one person can be responsible for the murder rate in a state? If so, HRC represents NYC - is she responsible for THEIR murder rate? She lived in Illinois before Barack got there - does that mean she made a mess for him to try and clean up? This is just a dumb argument.

Why don't you try READING the link I attached to my earlier comment. Sen. Obama sponsored 112 bills regarding crime in Illinois - two passed included videotaping of interrogations (considered landmark nationwide because of the support it received from the police departments across the state), and the protection of minors accused of crimes.

One person cannot be responsible for the murder rate, but Sen. Obama has done a great deal to help police make sure that once they apprehend a suspect they can get a clear, fair conviction.

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"The number of states won is totally and completely bogus. It is irrelevant in any evaluation, and needs to be omitted from any discussion."

Oh, please give me a f*cking break. You know what the number of states won shows me? Three things:

1) The ability to create a ground organization in varying states, which will help you contest those states in the fall. For example, Obama has shown he has a soliod ground game in Nebraska, Kansas, Texas, Wyoming, and Georgia. Are these "Democratic states"? Of course not. But neither is California a GOP state, but McCain plans on invading that turf. The more you make your opposition pay attention to and spend money in "safe" states, the less they can attack you elsewhere. Hillary, in contrast to Obama, writes these states off.

2) Geographic diversity. Obama has won solidly in every sector of the country. Hillary, in contrast, has done nothing in the Plains, little in the South, and nothing in the Pacific NW. See number 1, above.

3) There is something psychologically unsettling to see the "Red states" maps from 2000 and 2004, where the Dems were really only competitive on East, North and West coasts, leaving millions of square miles of Red in the middle. Obama changes this equation. Hillary, because of 1 and 2 above, has to rely on the status quo.

4) Somehow, I bet, just as "small states" and "Red states" are not important because Hillary lost them, I bet the number of states would be "important" if Hillary was more competitive, numerically.

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Obama is winning in states that the other side will not have to defend.

How many states does Obama bring into play that Clinton could not compete in?
* Maybe Georgia
* Maybe North Carolina
* Maybe Virginia
* Maybe Louisiana
But after the Wright fiasco, it is doubtful that Obama will win any southern state.

What states does Obama allow McCain to compete in that McCain would not compete in against Clinton?
* California, the big one
* New Jersey

Building a base in Kansas is a waste of time.
In the year 3012, the democrats will not compete there.

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I'll let you all in on some inside information.

This Primary is over for Clinton!

This race is not going to PA. you are going to see a massive shift in SD in the next 2 wks. You can take that to the bank!

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"no caucuses, which are un-democratic, and will likely never be used again"


Please explain why the caucus is un-democratic?


I argue for caucuses.

1) It is the only chance grassroots voters and regular voters, who are not party insiders, have the opportunity to become a delegate and have a voice in the elections.

2) According to Texas law voters have the right to take off work from work to vote without reprisal or punishnment from their employer. I do not know if other states have similar laws, but I would tend to think so.

3) It gives voters a chance to discuss the candidate and why they support him or her. Caucus goers are generally more informed about the issues.



Potus Obama 2008 , although the name indicates perhaps a little bias, is absosmurfly correctamundo. The race is over. The only thing keeping it alive is the MSM's eagerness in swallowing the Clinton spin.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9149.html

Again with the Michigan/Florida "disenfranchisement hooey. There was a magnificent TPM Reader Post about this that is an entertaining yet poignant read:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/03/a-brief-history-of-the-michiga.php

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Copied and Pasted from Daily Kos:

Clinton is losing
by kos
Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:29:52 PM PDT

Let's count the ways that Obama is winning:

1.) Pledged Delegates: (Using AP's numbers, with Obama's count in parenthesis)

Obama: 1,390 (1,411)
Clinton: 1,248 (1,250)


2.) Popular vote: I updated this post with results from Mississippi. I took out the Texas caucuses just to give this the best pro-Clinton spin possible, though I still think the caucuses are a separate contest and need to be accounted for. (Obama ended up winning Mississippi by over 100,000 votes.)

Obama: 13,614,204
Clinton: 12,801,153


3.) Primaries Won: There are 37 total primary contests. All Obama has to do is win three more and he notches the lead in these contests. He can do that easily with just three out of Montana, South Dakota, Oregon, Indiana, and North Carolina.

Obama: 16
Clinton: 12


4.) Caucuses Won

Obama: 14
Clinton: 3


5.) Overall contests Won: It's a 2-1 Obama advantage (includes territories and Democrats Abroad).

Obama: 30
Clinton: 15


6.) Red and Blue States Won (including DC, not including territories or Democrats Abroad):

Obama: 16 Red, 11 Blue
Clinton: 8 Red, 6 Blue


8.) Money Raised (through February)

Obama: $168 million
Clinton: $140 million

"So that leaves the Clinton campaign with what, exactly? Big states! Big states! Big states! I addressed that one yesterday.

"Team Clinton has nothing except schemes of coup by super delegate, which they apparently think they can do by insulting entire Democratic constituencies and most of our nation's states.

"But really, what else do they have? Their campaign is losing by every metric possible."


More from the Daily Kos:

http://dhinmi.dailykos.com/

"1. She can’t win the nomination without overturning the will of the elected delegates, which will alienate many Democrats.
2. She can’t win the nomination without a bloody convention battle — after which, even if she won, history and many Democrats would cast her as a villain.
4. Nancy Pelosi and other leading members of Congress don’t think she can win and want her to give up.
Same with superdelegate-to-the-stars Donna Brazile.
6. Many of her supporters — and even some of her staffers — would be relieved (and even delighted) if she quit the race; none of his supporters or staff feel that way. Some think she just might throw in the towel in June if it appears efforts to fight on would hurt Obama’s general election chances.
7. The Rev. Wright story notwithstanding, the media still wants Obama to be the nominee — and that has an impact every day.
9. Many of the remaining prominent superdelegates want to be for Obama and she (and Harold Ickes) are just barely keeping them from making public commitments to him.
12. This is a change election, and Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton can never truly be change.
14. Even though her campaign staff is having more fun than it has for a long time, there’s hardly anyone there who, given half a chance, wouldn’t slit Mark Penn’s throat — and such internal dissension won’t help her in the home stretch."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/22/15416/3084/808/482277

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Obama never reached across the aisle in the Senate?!?!? Excuse me:

the Coburn-Obama Government Transparency Act of 2006 (became law),
**The Lugar-Obama Nuclear Non-proliferation and Conventional Weapons Threat Reduction Act, (became law),
**The Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act, passed the Senate,
**The 2007 Government Ethics Bill, (became law),
**The Protection Against Excessive Executive Compensation Bill, (In committee)
Author of the De-Escalation Plan for Iraq

What do you consider "reaching across the aisle" for Hillary? The Flag burning amendment, and votating against the cluster bomb ban?

Have you read Obama's policy papers on the website? Hillary may have clicked off some facts on healthcare, but by the last 5 debates, Obama was just as knowledgeable as Hillary and looked great in the debates.

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Read my Comment lower down in the comments. I list a number of bills Obama authored or co-authored of great import, and required working across the aisle.

And yes, throughout his 8 years in the Illinois Senate, he was brilliant at working across the aisle, BUT -- and here's the important point -- for progressive issues. It's one thing to cave to Republicans and call it bi-partisan. It's another thing to listen to all sides and craft progressive legislation that even makes Republicans understand, like the videotaping of interrogations. It's not just that Obama got it through the state legislature; it's that when he had used his effective skills, the law and order people saw that such legislation was in their best interests as well.

THAT is what Hillary cannot do, has never done, and will not be able to do as president.

I'm a public defender, so I have to love the bill on videotaping interrogations, but that was passed amidst huge scandals in the Illinois criminal justice system that led the state's Republican governor to declare a moratorium on the death penalty and review of all death sentences in the state. I just don't think it's credible to hold up Obama's eight years in the Ill. State Senate (the majority of which, I believe, were spent in the minority party) as a great selling point for a candidate for Pres of the US. I feel the same way about his two years in the US Senate, one of which was spent running for President. If that's our best argument, we're cooked in November. Now, it may be that the voters don't mind (or even prefer) someone with little to no experience - they elected Bush, after all, but let's not get all worked up over his record as a State Senator.

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Young latte sippers....are always there. They, as opposed to single moms...can afford babysitters. Always with the "entitled" thing. Can you stop watching Fox and Anderson Cooper?

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Yeah, state senate and what 1 year in the senate before he runs for President? Doesn't hold a hearing on his committee the whole of 2007? yeah..thats what i want as president

I don't agree that the country needs to get to know Hillary Clinton. Is it still possible that someone doesn't know who she is?

If one of those orienting questions they ask when you are admitted to the ER is "Who is President?", I think we can assume the vast majority of voters think they know her.

And what is their memory of her? Lots of mud still adheres, even if unfair.

Well done. I too (a tepid and inconstant Clinton supporter) was peeved by the Politico and NYTimes articles. Nothing wrong with the Obama folks trying to peddle his inevitability - that's politics - but it's shocking how eager the punditocracy has been to bury Hillary. Ever since Iowa, we have been serenaded by a constant chorus of columnists and talking heads urging Clinton to drop out of the race. If I were a superdelegate, I would think long and hard about voting against the candidate who won New York, California, Ohio and is likely to win Pennsylvania by a wide margin. Many of Obama's wins came in States that he has no chance of winning in November. His victories in caucuses may not be a true measure of the depth of his support in that they favor a candidate with a strong organization and motivated supporters. It is not clear if he would have won nearly as much support in a true primary. Yes, this is the deeply flawed, crazy quilt of a system we have for selecting the nominee. But this insane system also says that if a candidate does not meet the required number of pledged delegates, he/she needs superdelegate support to win. So Obama supporters who trumpet his lead in pledged delegates should accept that the Supes may not believe he is the strongest candidate. There is certainly a strong argument to be made for both sides. However, the fallout if Hillary should win would be enormous and might cripple her in November.

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Caucuses are very very undemocratic. Your a working mom with 3 kids. You have a great job that you work 9 to 5. 5 you get off and get by the babysitter and get the kids home to do homework and into bed. Tell me when she is going to be able to get a caucus that is held during the workweek and at night? Please. You people call yourselves Progressive when all you seem to be is snotty nosed elite. Live in the real world for a change

Do you know who has historically been overrepresented at caucuses? Not young latte-sipping-elitist-types. They have families and full days too, you know. No, it's Retirees. Old folks with time on their hands. In other words, Hillary's base. If Hillary was better organized and didn't treat the nomination as something she was entitled to, you would not be complaining about the undemocratic nature of caucuses. So, stop Buffenbargering Obama supporters.

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Very good point.

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The electoral map from 2000 was same for every election going back to the 50's bar none. And, no, sorry Idaho/Wyoming,ND/SD/UTAH/ALASKA/SC/MS/GA/MS/AL don't matter to Democrats. We ain't going to win them with any candidate. Look at the polls here of McCain versus either candidate in those states. The Dem.loses handily. We want to WIN. Not lose again. Course losing is in our bloods...so maybe we should.

The fact that he accomplished so much while a member of the minority party says a lot. The Dems in US House and Senate would have regained the majority well before 2006 if they had developed the diplomatic skills and cooperative spirit of Sen. Obama.

AGAIN - here's a link to a list of some of the bills he sponsored and passed in the Illinois Senate. It's laid out in chart form (with pretty colors) so you might be able to adequately gather its meaning.

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/07/29/us/politics/20070730_OBAMA_GRAPHIC.html

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Howard, I think you are absolutly right, but you will never get an Obama supporter to think clearly let alone analyticaly.

Just like the hard line Bushkies, they will never admit that they have been hood-winked(Obama), he should have shucked and jived (he still learning).

Wow - if you're indicative of the Clinton campaign, then no wonder (and thank goodness) she's losing.

Four years of this blind bigotry is just more than what we need right now.

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I realize the Obama supporters are with him in an emotional manner, but i am impressed by how
many of them are trying to use analytical arguments.

I don't agree with many of their arguments, but they have validity, and I must respect their well thought out opinions.

However, some of them are a bit much and over the top. Just like the candidate.

to me, lets see what happens in PA.
A 300,000 vote win for Hillary will open some eyes to the popular vote possibilities. And maybe people will focus on the substance of Hillary Clinton, and why she is such an excellent candidate. Obama is a very good candidate as well - I just think she is better.

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so, anyone for Clinton is a bigot, or possibly anyone with a different opinion.

as you read thru these august comments ,I think you will find that the Clinton haters, outnumber the Obama uninspired by a very large number.

No, I'm not saying just any clinton backer is a bigot. I'm saying YOU are. Why don't you "shuck and jive" your way to a blog that appreciates your foul language? I hear hillaryis44.org is receptive to your kind of posts.

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"PLEASE don't diminish the good work he did in IL"

800 bills sponsered and passed in 8 years, 100 per year, 2 per week. Is this really possible? Could he cross the isle that many times, talk to enough people of the other party and convince them to support his bill, then

Maybe he can walk on water.

By the way, there didn't seem to be much substance in any of the bills.

Would you happen to know how many were actually implemented?

The link I gave you used a color coding system to distinguish between proposed and passed. He's not responsible for whether or not it's implemented (or vetoed) once it makes it through the legislature. But he did get 'em passed.

Yup, he worked hard for Illinois. Now you know why folks from Illinois love him. Why is it so hard to fathom that a politician might do actual WORK?

As for blind bigotry, do you mean to tell me you "didn't mean anything" when you said:

Just like the hard line Bushkies, they will never admit that they have been hood-winked(Obama), he should have shucked and jived (he still learning).

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What blind bigotry are you talking about?

It's purely black and white

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Here's a link to a list of the bills that Obama sponsored and passed in Illinois.

The sample shows that 10 of 16 passed..62.5%

Give him the benefit of the doubt, 823 sponsered,
62.5% passed =514 passed = 64/year, 1.28/week on a 50 week work year, and another 309 sponsered, but not passed. Do you think IL Gov is in session 50 weeks/yr.

Sorry, I still don't think that it's possible.

By the way, isn't sponsered/passed but not implemented, like a speech with no action?

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