An odor is beginning to waft from the Democratic Party
----------------------------------------------------

I agree. Bush is known as the president who stole an election by stopping the vote count in one state. Obama, if he wins, will be known as the candidate that stole an election by disenfranchising all the voters in 2 states. Hard to believe that would be what the democratic party stood for. That stench will stick to the party and its nominee a long time.

Atually.... you nut-job.

Hillary, if she "steals" this nomination will be known as the woman who broke rules, slandered a good man, committed election fraud for her own ambition. Destroying the Democratic Party is a noble cause, isn't it... Shrillary?

Bitch Isn't The New Black.... It's Just The Same Old Bitch.

The race isn't quite over yet...Maybe that "thing" hiding in the Obama closet will come out in a few days and if it does, maybe Hillary will come into the nomination with flying colors. I am hoping at some point, the American people will see that voting for Obama, while polar opposite from policy than BUSH is like BUSH in his arrogance and lack of policy, foreign or otherwise. I am praying...

Then there's the "anyone but Hillary" vote of the white male and senior voter. Let's be reasonable here. There's a compelling reason why the Republicans want to run against her so badly.

God knows what they've got. But this attitude that Obama is irreparably damaged and Hillary will not be eviscerated is just, well, b.s.

Oh I see, now that Obama and the Limosine liberals have managed to disenfranchse Florida and Michigan, they want to do the same to all the remaining states. Of course the Obama loving, Clinton bashing press and blogs would love her to quit while little is known about Obama. The more that is known about Obama's past the worse he does with blue collar workers. Hillary will stay into the convention. I do not hear calls for her to quit coming from any of her supporters.
I for one think that Obama should quit. I think he is full of manure and is running the most divisive primary campaign in history.

That's a reply, but it's not an answer to my question.

This is very interesting. Usually people argue it the other way around -- that it's up to Hillary to decide whether or not to run and that we Hillary supporters have no need or desire to become Obama supporters so long as our candidate is in the race. You're saying the opposite, that we should be the ones telling her to stop.

Of course, both factors are in play. Hillary's support is very close to 50% of the Democratic party. Yes, we have a peculiar nominating system and 2 large states have now been excluded from that, but you can't ignore the notion that the party is pretty much evenly divided over its preference right now.

Hillary can drop out and take a choice away from half of us. It's true. But I think that our fellow party members in states that haven't voted yet would still like to have a say.

It's just too early for this kind of thing.

HOLD ON.....I talked to Hillary this morning and she said she would stop if Barack had cosmetic surgery on his ears!

David Brooks? No wonder you guys support Obama.

Get back to me when Barry's got 2025. Till then, you're just talking smack as punks are wont to do.

In the end, it really makes no difference whether Obama or Clinton gets the nomination because neither of them will win in November.

"you're just talking smack as punks are wont to do."

A real class act

Obama's online supporters are who's harming the party, if anyone. Obama & Hillary are simply campaigning for the nomination, yet the Obamaheads keep repeating the same things, over and over, all while ignoring their own pleas.

Excuse me but Hillary Supporters are dreaming if they think she is not going to get clobbered by the republicans in November. She has been handled with velvet gloves compared to what she and Bill will face in November She is actually the republcans one chance of winning this fall. The republicans will unite and pull out all of the stops to keep the Clintons out of the white house. And since I have lost all respect for them and could not vote for them on any ticket... my guess is that Hillary is the answer to the republicans prayers.

Hey Brian, it's your former fiction class student here. Your analysis is absolutely correct. As many have speculated, at this point Hillary is not banking on the 2008 nomination, but rather attempting to bloody her opponent into failure and thus setup a 2012 run.

You mentioned "Today, for example, she tells a Philidelphia newspaper that pledged delegates aren't really pledged. She's more than hinting that she's willing to win by snatching away delegates won by Senator Obama in fair democratic elections."

In fact many pledged delegates are already reporting that her campaign is in fact actively working to turn them
http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/?p=935

Sadly the fact is that this lie, or the recent Bosnia sniper lie won't bother her supporters despite the comment on February 19th by Howard Woflson: "We have not, are not, and will not pursue the pledged delegates of Barack Obama."

Unfortunately too many of her supporters are all too willing to champion the mud-slinging win-at-all-costs unethical politics that have defined exactly what this election cycle should not be about.

And over the weekend her campaign floated the absurd idea that super-delegates should make up their minds based on the electoral college value of the states won by each candidate.

Magister: "*The same setting as when Obama said his bit about the Democrats having no ideas."

I love how you threw that in there.

Are you saying Obama actually said that?

Or, are you saying Hillary is being misquoted like Obama was?

It would be more believable if it was another Clinton "misspeak" if she didn't have her surrogates spouting the same lie that Wright is a racist.

Wow, Obama shills have swarmed every democratic blog on the web. He must be blowing quite a bit into this.

Me too, slouch. I voted Obama in my state's primary and continue support him. I live in flyover country, in a literal cabin in the woods, am white, female, 57, former hippy, also ex-republican (thank ya, dubya), mother of 5, granny of 10, with only two years of "post secondary" education. I drink Wal Mart store-brand instant coffee. (I know--ICK.) I am the working poor.

Ms. Behavin:

It is very rude to swamp a post with a massive reply that doesn't reply to the original post at all. Your post inserted here is better placed as an original post of its own. Please use that route in the future, and/or reply directly to the topic of the original post.

MsBehavin, you oughta not give McSame all this great political advertizing for FREE.

The longer this goes on...the higher McCain's numbers climb. He started out with "no chance" and is now winning.

"Obama is not what he claims to be."

And you just intuit this by your magical powers?

I'm struck by the irrational nature of the anti-Obama crowd. They can't even say why they don't like him, just a "hunch".

This lends itself to the impression that they are merely prejudiced: Judging someone not on their record or merit, but on preconceptions.

I find this remarkable because of the verifiable history of lies and cowardice of Obama's rivals, McCain and Clinton.

Rude? A post? Oh because it isn't all obama all the time? Oh I see.

Thanks for your direct answer.

The original post did not mention forcing the idea on anyone, just askign why not adopt it yourself. I am truly confused why sober minded people wouldn't want her to bow out now. I believe her chances are much less than 5%. But whatever the odds, I can't abide the scorched earth strategy to fight the upHill battle.
Honestly, if I were a Hillbacker I would call for this to end now, gracefully, and look on to a great future, different path. Or I would switch loyalty to someone not willing to risk the 2008 election by creating so much ill will between fellow Dems.
In my eyes they couldnt be more different- both flawed, candidates: the uniter v. the divider, the leader v. the victim, but even so, I would want Obama to stop (and I believe the media would crucify him )if his odds were so long and the path to winning so destructive. Better Hillary elected than our majority divided. For a 1 in 100 shot, no. I pledge allegiance to the obvious Dem candidate...

Stop and consider what has been revealed about Hillary through her Bosnia Sniper story. She told a very vivid detailed story of how she ran through a sniper gauntlet. She even disputed Sinbad's version, which has since been proven to be true.

Hillary now says that she misspoke or got confused, or got it mixed up with some other sniper experience that she never endured either.

It now comes down to only one of two options: Either Hillary is lying or she is delusional.

If you give her the benefit of the doubt, then you have to conclude that she actually believed that the event actually happened as she described it.

We now know that it did not, so there is a reasonable chance that Hillary may actually not have a very firm grip on reality. In other words, she may be delusional.

Do you really want someone like that answering the Red Phone, and responding from a memory bank of false recollections, that she is convinced actually happened.

We are talking about the Commander in Chief position here folks, with all the awesome powers of War and Peace that position controls.

What if Hillary does not really have a firm grasp on reality. Her Bosnia Fairy Tale could lead reasonable people to conclude that might just be the case.

Mindless name calling is not usually persuasive.

" There are many more reasons, but I have to eat dinner. "

Wait! Don't go eat yet. Your post makes no more sense than if I were to arbitrarily substitute Obama's name for hers. It's just a list of loving notions about your candidate, which you already KNOW Obama supporters don't agree with. Take them one by one and see if you can be convincing.

Start with this one, my fav:

3)What does Hillary know about the military, and how does she know so much?

Obama's campaign did not disenfranchise voters in Michigan and Florida. The Dem party in both states decided to break the rules knowing that their votes would not count.

The reason for this was to gain more attention early in the race and, most importantly, gain more ad dollars. They didn't predict a close race and figured the case would be closed by the time their primaries were held.

I'll say it again, those states sold their votes. They flat-out traded them for cash.

On TalkLeft, which is the sanest of the pro-Hillary blogs (and that does not say much) there is post that essentially says that Hillary is staying in for the good of the party, because she and her campaign know Obama can't win and love the country too much to bow out and cede this to McCain. I shit you not. So, I guess that is your answer, for some. How, exactly, hillary is going to win with hard negatives of 50% plus alienating some of the core constituencies of the party I do not know.

I was an Edwards supporter first and wrote and asked him to drop out for the good of the party, I feared he was splitting the Progressive vote and would lead to the nomination of someone who could not win in November.

By the way, "the Republicans are going to do it," is not an excuse for Hillary.

Something that I don't get about the anti-Obama crowd: How did they come to HATE him?

Have they all been following him for years, building up this hatred? When we were coming up to 2008 and there were a couple of dozen Democratic candidates, there weren't any whom I HATED. I've love Obama since first reading "Dreams from My Father" and then "The Audacity of Hope." I thought, now there's a thoughtful, complex, grounded fellow! But I figured that there was no way a majority of Democrats, let alone a majority of voting Americans, could also embrace a President Obamba. So I threw my early support behind Edwards, and I put Obama in my second spot, Biden third, Dodd forth, and Richardson fifth.

Hillary? I've never cared for her, and I really, really didn't want to re-install the Clintons back into the White House. (Actually, I didn't much care for Bill either -- except for when the Republicans pulled that impeachment crap, then I supported him relentlessly against all my Republican in-laws.) But I looked to Hillary as the likely candidate, and I figured I could live with that.

Then people started catching on to how fresh and intelligent and cool-headed Obama was, and I realized that my original hunch was fairly widely shared. Many, many people seemed to "get" Obama as I did. So I switched my support from Edwards to Obama. But I still figured that Hillary would win. Too much momentum and machinery behind her. Too much "inevitability." Still ...

But now that Obama has locked-in a mathematically insurmountable lead, garnering more than twice as many votes in the primaries as John McCain, and 700,000 more than Hillary, suddenly things have gotten very, very ugly. Had Hillary done what Obama had done, I believe that Obama would've conceded (graciously, as he has always done in every primary contest he's lost -- quite unlike Hillary!), and I would've gone easily back to my personal Plan C, which was to support Hillary all the way to the White House. (Then cringe for eight years as she triangulated every move.)

But I didn't HATE her all these years. It's only been since post-Super Tuesday that I've come to deeply dislike her and her ways. And, now, with Obama leading in every way, except by the "Clinton Rules," and her bringing down the Democratic Party for her own ambitions, I fully HATE her. Gasp, I even find myself agreeing with David Brooks!

But for those who HATE Obama: Did that come before Super Tuesday? What was the progression there? And who were your second, third, and fourth choices? (Or is that the rub? Did you not have a Plan B, let alone a Plan C?)

Tell your story.

I love the reply from TerryCarroll so much I wish it would fit on a campaign SIGN to hold up at a campaign RALLY.

Choozyguy, curious, what reply are you referring to?

Louisville, I never heard anything so crazy in my life. There really is no communicating with Hillary's supporters, is there. You all sound so exactly the same that I tend to suspect there are only a handful of you, paid Clinton staffers, posting night and day at all the Democrat/progressive blogs. I'm speechless, sorry, depressed, shaking my head, and done with ya.

No, I posted it, not the campaign, and it came from The Hillary website, I guess I blew that somehow when the URL didn't post with it... I am usually not so careless.... Apologies all around. Guess I won't be running for Pres any time soon..

Louisville, thank you for your rational post. I think you can find some Hillary supporters who do hate Obama (go to Hillaryis44.org), and I believe for them it's because he had the gall to challenge her when it's her turn. Hillary to some women is a victim, and in this race, then, Obama becomes the victimizer.

But, I have to admit, I don't see what Hillary has really done that would make her so worthy of being president. She;s enormously capable, but we're not running on capability but rather experience, right? It seems like she's been a fairly inconsequential senator. She was certainly the most active first lady since Eleanor R, and I admired her then. I was glad she was running for the senate and I hoped she would use her platform and her celebrity to do a lot of good. But I don't see that she has. Some of her votes I find far too expedient--the war, flag burning, K-L. I mean you only vote for a flag burning amendment if you are clinically retarded or else trying to protect yourself politically. Hillary is not clinically retarded. Every politician compromises, but as I said in another thread I find her too willing to sacrifice the right for the expedient.

But I admired her before this campaign. I thought she could not win, but I admired her. But I can't abide what she is doing--this whole "kitchen sink," the plagiarism kerfuffle, her Wright comments. She is trying to bring down the probable nominee. She is being Rovian.

The other thing, honestly, is the spin. It's not her fault Mark Penn is an idiot, but she did hire him, and the constant X state doesn't matter, Y state is a caucus, it's the popular vote, Bill Richardson doesn't matter, the MI and FL votes were totally fair elections, have really turned me off.

As for Obama, I think this country needs someone now who can inspire us, who can appeal to the best in us after 8 years of soeone who appealed to the worst in the country. Obama has the potential to be truly transformative. We need a leader.

I realize that this isn't my post to begin with, and that I came in with a reply fairly late in the round, but I've gotten a number of responses, however no one has done what I've done. I stated my "opposite side of the coin" -- what would get me to HATE Obama. (And I appreciate that most -- all? -- of you have stepped away from that extreme term.) I have stated my "selection process" toward backing Obama, who my second, third, fourth, and fifth choices were. I have stated my "history" with Hillary and Bill, and how that has evolved.

Please, Hillary supporters. Tell your side of the story, unfiltered, without posturing and snark. I'm very, very new to the Talking Points Memo blog (2 weeks?), but I stayed here because I found that there was a fair degree of straight mature discussion, in which people don't simply hide behind pseudonyms (my name is Terry Carroll; I live in Oakland, California; I'll be 48 in four weeks; I have a virtually unused master's degree in American history; I'm a photographer; married, no children). Please, give me some straight discussion on point.

Hi Terry,

I had the privilege of meeting Joe Wilson at a fundraiser in SF last December for Charlie Brown (CA-04). It was a small party where we got to talk extensively. He and Charlie are true American heros.
Joe is a serious Hillary supporter because he knows her and truly believes that she is best prepared to end the war and properly do the diplomacy around the world that needs to be done to undo Bush.
he has a passionate 3/20/08 post at Huffington post on the 3 am phone call if you want to read his own words. He moved me in person and really convinced me that I was right to trust her.

carol

The arrogance is about his personality, not his refusing the VP slot. I don't think he should take the VP slot now. that would be silly. I just think he is too arrogant to ever reach out an olive branch to her if he gets to the nomination. I think they should both fight on until all the states vote.

I'm not put off by the contest between them. He is too new and too unknown to have confidence that he will survive a battle with the republicans.

About proving his mettle (thanks!): if Hillary throws him punches now and he parries them well then he will be a stronger candidate. Hillary is already viewed as strong because she has survived so much of this stuff. she doesn't need to be beat up any more for us to know all we need to about her, Obama is untested.

About the math. If we were republicans with winner-take-all primaries Hillary would have won by now. He is not closing the deal with the power brokers (super delegates) so far. She still might win and it won't be so called back room deals it will be by the system working the way it was designed to work. the system gives an insurgent candidate like Obama a real chance that he would not have in republican rules, but have some checks in the system (super delegates) in case the insurgent is too risky for the general election. he's not 'winning" because he won't get the 2025 without using supers himself.

To all Obama cult members, read this:
PJB: A Brief for Whitey
posted by Linda
By Patrick J. Buchanan

How would he pull it off? I wondered.

How would Barack explain to his press groupies why he sat silent in a pew for 20 years as the Rev. Jeremiah Wright delivered racist rants against white America for our maligning of Fidel and Gadhafi, and inventing AIDS to infect and kill black people?

How would he justify not walking out as Wright spewed his venom about “the U.S. of K.K.K. America,” and howled, “God damn America!”

My hunch was right. Barack would turn the tables.

Yes, Barack agreed, Wright’s statements were “controversial,” and “divisive,” and “racially charged,” reflecting a “distorted view of America.”

But we must understand the man in full and the black experience out of which the Rev. Wright came: 350 years of slavery and segregation.

Barack then listed black grievances and informed us what white America must do to close the racial divide and heal the country.

The “white community,” said Barack, must start “acknowledging that what ails the African-American community does not just exist in the minds of black people; that the legacy of discrimination — and current incidents of discrimination, while less overt than in the past — are real and must be addressed. Not just with words, but with deeds … .”

And what deeds must we perform to heal ourselves and our country?

The “white community” must invest more money in black schools and communities, enforce civil rights laws, ensure fairness in the criminal justice system and provide this generation of blacks with “ladders of opportunity” that were “unavailable” to Barack’s and the Rev. Wright’s generations.

What is wrong with Barack’s prognosis and Barack’s cure?

Only this. It is the same old con, the same old shakedown that black hustlers have been running since the Kerner Commission blamed the riots in Harlem, Watts, Newark, Detroit and a hundred other cities on, as Nixon put it, “everybody but the rioters themselves.”

Was “white racism” really responsible for those black men looting auto dealerships and liquor stories, and burning down their own communities, as Otto Kerner said — that liberal icon until the feds put him away for bribery.

Barack says we need to have a conversation about race in America.

Fair enough. But this time, it has to be a two-way conversation. White America needs to be heard from, not just lectured to.

This time, the Silent Majority needs to have its convictions, grievances and demands heard. And among them are these:

First, America has been the best country on earth for black folks. It was here that 600,000 black people, brought from Africa in slave ships, grew into a community of 40 million, were introduced to Christian salvation, and reached the greatest levels of freedom and prosperity blacks have ever known.

Wright ought to go down on his knees and thank God he is an American.

Second, no people anywhere has done more to lift up blacks than white Americans. Untold trillions have been spent since the ’60s on welfare, food stamps, rent supplements, Section 8 housing, Pell grants, student loans, legal services, Medicaid, Earned Income Tax Credits and poverty programs designed to bring the African-American community into the mainstream.

Governments, businesses and colleges have engaged in discrimination against white folks — with affirmative action, contract set-asides and quotas — to advance black applicants over white applicants.

Churches, foundations, civic groups, schools and individuals all over America have donated time and money to support soup kitchens, adult education, day care, retirement and nursing homes for blacks.

We hear the grievances. Where is the gratitude?

Barack talks about new “ladders of opportunity” for blacks.

Let him go to Altoona and Johnstown, and ask the white kids in Catholic schools how many were visited lately by Ivy League recruiters handing out scholarships for “deserving” white kids.

Is white America really responsible for the fact that the crime and incarceration rates for African-Americans are seven times those of white America? Is it really white America’s fault that illegitimacy in the African-American community has hit 70 percent and the black dropout rate from high schools in some cities has reached 50 percent?

Is that the fault of white America or, first and foremost, a failure of the black community itself?

As for racism, its ugliest manifestation is in interracial crime, and especially interracial crimes of violence. Is Barack Obama aware that while white criminals choose black victims 3 percent of the time, black criminals choose white victims 45 percent of the time?

Is Barack aware that black-on-white rapes are 100 times more common than the reverse, that black-on-white robberies were 139 times as common in the first three years of this decade as the reverse?

We have all heard ad nauseam from the Rev. Al about Tawana Brawley, the Duke rape case and Jena. And all turned out to be hoaxes. But about the epidemic of black assaults on whites that are real, we hear nothing.

Sorry, Barack, some of us have heard it all before, about 40 years and 40 trillion tax dollars ago.

Obama disenfranchised MI and FL?!!??!!

Are you effin' kidding?!!

That was the fault of those state's Dem parties and their legislatures. They knew the rules. They knew the penalities.

We NEVER heard ONE word of protest from Hillary about it until she realized she was losing this race.

So stop with the twisting and turning of the truth.

Barack Obama is responsible for bringing millions of new Democrats to the polls for the first time in their lives. He is responsible for getting more people to realize the power of the vote than anyone in recent history.

I am supporting Hillary Clinton for many reasons.

People say that she cant win the race but infact, I believe she already has and is being shut down by Democratic insiders who potentially have something better to gain with Obama.

Hillary is winning the big blue states. NY, NJ MA, OH, CA, and soon, PA. Obama is winning states he will lose in November. Do we think that those large electoral red states will support Obama? What about Florida?? Where Obama has declined any support for a redo? People are not looking at the big picture.

I would like anyone to tell me what Obama has achieved in his political career? He talks a good rap and oooh, it sounds so lovely--the CHANGEs he speaks of or does he?? What will be his CHANGES?? Or, are we going to just focus on RACE?

Where is his MAJOR ECONOMIC ADDRESS?? Hillary came out and did it first, followed by McCains weak speech yesterday.

I have to say.. If this primary season does not start to resemble something more even handed I cant give my party any support in November.

Do you even recoginize the arrogance of your post: My candidate is winning at this moment, so let's end the race now.

Obama's lead is not insurmountable. Even excluding Florida and Michigan, his popular vote lead is 2.4%. By almost all accounts that number is suppose to shrink, and possibly disappear entirely by the end of the primaries. That is hardly an intimidating obstacle, especially when he is about to lose big in the biggest State left to vote.

What is clear is that at the end of the Primarys neither Hillary nor Obama are going to have won enough delegates to clinch victory. If Obama wanted a clear Democratic Nominee he had two choices don't run, or win big. He did neither.

But to answer directly the question you asked, we LET her continue Because:

1. We want her to be president
2. there is no indication that Obama is capable of doing the job.
3.because Obama indoctrinates his children in hate by taking his children to witness that racist demagoge every Sunday.
4.Because we think that Barack Obama is an empty suit.
5.Because, while I have no idea what a community organizer is, it sounds like a euphamism for unemployed, it doesn't strike me as a qualification for President.
6. Because we don't want to be associated with Barack Obama's internet supporters, who claim they want to unite the country, but spew so much venom that no ones who wasn't already an Obama supporter would want to have anything to do with them.

Ahhhh Annie, That is disappointing to hear a Dem spout that stuff. Turn off your radio...Don't listen to those guys. Where ..oh where OH WHERE is any proof of wrongdoing. I hear "talk" innuendo. Always the same smear tactics taken on Mr.& Mrs. Clinton.

Goodness. Annie, your a Dem....:(

Um, Sisyphustjns, Do YOU understand that the only way for Hillary to overcome Obama's lead is to destroy him, as I suggested in my original post. Is that how you want to win? And also, it doesn't sound like you know much about Obama's church, or that you've even bothered to listen to Senator Obama or read any of his positions. You just sound like an angry crank. A little like Rush Limbaugh, actually.