Reader Posts
« previous | TPM CAFÉ READER POSTS HOME | next »
Endgame Signals?
As Josh pointed out on the home page, Politico has an article up essentially stating that the media has kept the Clinton candidacy afloat. Does this signal a shift in how the campaign will be covered in the wider media? How will Vandehei and Allen's peers interpret this article? Does it even matter?
Add to this Richardson's endorsement which, despite Mark Penn's words to the contrary, is significant - significant enough to make headlines. This may just be a way for Obama to move the news cycle beyond Reverend Wright, but I think there is a bigger picture here.
Though it is early, Obama seems to have successfully navigated through his worst weeks of the campaign. The "More Perfect Union" speech was well received by the media and a savvy political move - giving the story the Fox treatment just makes one look like someone who's living in the past. The story isn't over, but it's fading fast and the narrative seems to be "let's move forward".
I have the sense that the general public, mainstream media and especially the super-delegates were waiting to see Obama's reaction to the latest controversy. What could have signaled his endgame, in fact became a signal that while this is the end, it is his opponent's. Vandehei and Allen seem to be telling their counterparts that the party's over - it was fun, but it can't last forever.
And what about Richardson? Is this more than political theater? Is there significance to the DNC and superdelegates that it's time to close ranks? Has the party decided that a nasty fight in Pennsylvania and beyond would once again snatch defeat from jaws of victory? And let's not forget that Michigan and Florida revotes are not happening.
It will be interesting to see the reporting over the next couple of weeks. The super-delegates can't realistically move en masse, that would appear to be undercutting that remaining states' votes. But they can trickle in over the next several weeks which would keep the news and momentum positive for Obama. Combine that with the news beginning to be reported through the lens of near-impossible delegate math and it could dramatically affect the outcome in Pennsylvania.
I don't want to give the media undo power, yet it is primary filter through which we view this campaign. What gets reported and how will continue to affect elections. There are signals that it may be time to move on to the next round.


Comments (91)
I would be shocked if HRC drops out before Pennsylvania, but if her campaign is in a money crunch, and super-delegates shift en masse, it may just happen. It would be like Christmas, so I doubt it will happen.
March 21, 2008 3:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
I certainly don't expect Clinton to drop out before Pennsylvania. But I do wonder whether this is the beginning of the end for her in terms of horse-race narrative in the media. I even think the Chris Wallace "Obama-bashing" comments are part of that.
I think that there may be a collective sense that the story is over. It's ineffable and and difficult to quantify - but I'll be interested to see the feeling that gets projected by the media in the coming weeks.
March 21, 2008 3:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've been getting a strong sense that the media is sick of this "horse race" for the last 24 hours. It's not just a preponderance of "Can Hillary win?" and "Obama survived!". It's the tone of the coverage itself - exasperated, disinterested boredom.
While the news outlets and journalists certainly find a horse-race narrative more interesting, and sell more papers/ad space, I think at some point even they get sick of portraying it that way when it reduces to boredom.
Maybe this is just a one-day thing and tomorrow they'll shrug it off and dive back into the "HILLARY AND OBAMA NECK AND NECK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111" but I doubt it. Even the media I know isn't that fickle.
March 21, 2008 4:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
With either Clinton or Obama as the Democratic candidate, it is going to be hard to defeat McCain in November. That, I think, is an unfortunate truth. To optimize our chances I think it is essential for all Democrats to face the truth - our candidate will either be Obama, badly wounded, and campaigning for the support of a fractured party, still licking its wounds from a long drawn out primary campaign, or it will be Obama, fresh from a 4 month respite from campaigning against Clinton, and with a united Democratic Party behind him.
The latter should be the choice of all Democrats. And, that will occur only if Clinton and her supporters are ready to accept the reality that this isn't Clinton's year. Clinton needs to put the needs of our country above her personal desires and graciously concede now.
March 21, 2008 3:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not so gloomy about our chances in November. The polls aren't particularly predictive at this point. Rather, I would look to the money and turnout we've seen in just the primary combined with the lackluster support for McCain amongst Republicans.
We're just tired and down from a (seemingly) long primary fight.
March 21, 2008 3:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
well stated, hoppycalif2. I will be repeating your words, in effect, all weekend long when I get together with family at Easter. (We are split almost along gender lines between the two which for me is as much of a non issue as race) It is vision and integrity that matter to me.
March 21, 2008 4:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
When Novemeber comes and americans have to fill their gas tanks with five dollar a gallon gas, pay for it with a U.S. dollar that isn't worth a quarter, do you really believe the vast majority will go to the polls and vote for John more-of-the-same McCain? I think the wheels will come off the McCain campaign wheelchair long before Novemeber.
March 21, 2008 3:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
The politico article really surprised me. I felt that the nomination was decided after the potomac primary. The media seemed poised to declare it over then too with some willing to endulge the Clintons until Texas/Ohio and others suggesting she should save face and exit before then. After her wins the media seemed eager to have a race to report on for 7 weeks. I never expected anyone in the media to abandon a narrative that gives news channels so much to report on.
March 21, 2008 4:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed. My first Cafe post was along those lines. I think the horse race story may be running out of steam, though. We are a people of short attention spans and there is way too much time before the next primary. People will get bored if there is nothing new. Ratings will drive the network narrative as much as anything. Barring a major news event, daily campaign conference calls will get old fast.
March 21, 2008 4:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
"I never expected anyone in the media to abandon a narrative that gives news channels so much to report on."
Possibly they think that the Big Speech will ignite a lengthy conversation on race that they can report on instead. Or that the release of Clinton's records as First Lady will allow them to make Monica Lewinsky a household name again.
I may be on a limb here, but I think Mike Huckabee's response to Obama's speech was the tipping point.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gTFLOu8fjxU
The big question about Obama was always whether he really had the ability to make Republicans willing to meet him halfway on anything. If not, it was a better strategy to elect someone who could dig in her heels and fight for everything the Republicans wouldn't give.
I think that watching a recent Presidential candidate happily support Obama and undercut what must have been Karl Rove's pet talking point for the general election, we have our answer. Huckabee probably just blew his chances to be the Republican VP candidate, but he's still probably the most popular politician in the Bible Belt right now, and if his point of view is popular there, Obama has just won big-time.
Oh, and Huckabee's definitely going to get his knuckles wrapped for this.
March 21, 2008 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
My Huckabee-respect-o-meter needle flew up to the green when I saw him defend Obama that way. It's the last thing I think anyone expected, both because it's a REPUBLICAN defending a DEMOCRAT, and because it's a white man actually suggesting hey - maybe Wright is right.
I think in some sense it gave the rest of the media permission to look at the issue that way.
March 21, 2008 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
huck has been a wild card. many times he has been extremely reasonable and likable. but then he would transform into gomer pile.
March 21, 2008 8:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL! The mental image you just generated is hilarious! :)
March 21, 2008 9:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
And, as if on queue, I see TPMEC has a story that the FEC reports the Clinton campaign is in the red. Do these smoke signals indicate fire?
March 21, 2008 4:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Take a deep breath folks and don't forget that everyone was saying the same thing before New Hampshire, Super Tuesday, Texas and Ohio.
Also, the media has been in the tank for so long, I don't even remember a day recently when the math wasn't brought up on TV followed by resounding "Impossible!".
It will when when one of them chooses to end it. Or superdelegates. Not a day before.
March 21, 2008 4:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was definitely thinking about New Hampshire when I posted this. The difference, I think, is the time span. My suspicion is that NAFTA-gate actually prolonged this race more than anything (I'm not sure Obama could have won Ohio, but I do think winning by 10 instead of 8 or 5 was enough.) I think that hurt Obama in Ohio especially and gave Clinton the media bounce she needed to keep the campaign alive. Had she won Mississippi and/or Wyoming I think her footing would be surer and she could claim some momentum, but that didn't happen.
As FlyOnTheWall has posted (don't have the post handy, sorry) - the elections have been fairly predictable based on demographics. I think interest in the campaign story is waning which affects how the story is reported which affects the outcome to some extent (Clinton still wins Pennsylvania, but it was expected so not a big story...Obama wins North Caroline...yawn.) Unless there is something to grab viewers/readers, the media moves on to the next interesting thing.
If the collective sense is that the race is over, the super-delegates will end it without suffering any backlash. As long as it's a horse race, that won't happen. I think that's the media impact on the race regardless of other factors.
March 21, 2008 5:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
The press loves the "horse race". It is why they persist in this. Without the internecine Democratic fight, nothing much will happen until the "main event" later in the year.
We'd just have to content ourselves with Britney Spears and Heather Mills McCartney until then.
March 21, 2008 4:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
By the way - thanks to everyone who recommended not to mention the thoughtful comments.
March 21, 2008 5:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
So sad that idiotic hasn't posted here...
March 21, 2008 5:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
The "Hillary Can't Win" meme is popping up on cable news left and right this afternoon.
March 21, 2008 5:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, but there are those that are ardently defending the "neck and neck" perspective. The big picture, of course, is that Hillary's chances rest upon bloodying Obama to the point that super-delegates are willing to nominate the candidate with fewer states, fewer pledged delegates, and less of the popular vote. All agree that this would be disastrous for the party and certainly cast a shadow over the race in November, a mere 2.5 months after the coup Hillary is banking on in Denver. With this knowledge, it is somewhat scandalous that Democrats are allowing the race to continue on this course. One would expect the prospect of a McCain presidency frightening enough to sway even the most ardent Clinton supporters. But even supposed progressives in the blogosophere are still holding out hope and helping Clinton bloody the presumptive nominee. It's quite a display and won't be forgotten easily.
March 21, 2008 6:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think the MSM's just waiting to see which way the wind blows tomorrow. Or tonight. The shit is flying so fast this past two weeks that the minute an event is reported you either discover it's false, or that it's a spin, or that the public or other news outlets prefer to spin it another way, or that something bigger has happened.
At some point the MSM's pandering to pundits, polls and public opinion was bound to get them all balled up. Maybe they'll become like an oraborus, and swallow themselves up, and someone here can start building an investigative news structure from scratch. Oh, wait, isn't that what all this blogging is about?
March 21, 2008 7:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gee, all this time I thought Hillary was ahead in the math. The MSM and Hillary really fooled me. I should never have voted for her.
But something tells me that this going at least thru N.C. and Indiana.
I think I'll let MSM keep fooling me till then.
March 21, 2008 7:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think she's been hanging on in hopes that Obama was going to stumble and take a big fall. But if Rev. Wright didn't take him down, what is going to?
March 21, 2008 7:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Typical white women might start crossing the street.
March 21, 2008 7:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
You meant they'd stop crossing the street, right?
March 21, 2008 7:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
? Not sure what you mean?
March 21, 2008 7:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, I get it, you meant women who supported Clinton will go over to Obama. My bad. There's so much talk of typicality in the conversations about race that I thought you referred to white women who cross the street when they see a black man. I, for one, didn't have to cross any street at all.
March 21, 2008 8:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
does that make you a black women?
March 21, 2008 8:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
or a white women? Not sure.
March 21, 2008 8:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Probably too late to answer, but a white jewish woman, make my own coffee, and wear orthotics, not Birkenstocks.
March 22, 2008 12:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
One of the problems you encounter when employing the kitchen sink strategy is that, if your adversary remains standing, there's nothing left to throw.
March 21, 2008 7:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
And your dirty dishes pile up.
Maybe the next strategy code name will be baby + bath water.
March 22, 2008 12:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Just for giggles I checked out the InTrade markets on our favorite two Dems. There's been movement over the past few days, but damned little trading. In other words, everyone's just holding their breath, waiting for something to happen. Maybe they'll just shut up for a while.
March 21, 2008 8:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wish that I didn't have to talk to you in riddles. But I get your last sentence.
March 21, 2008 8:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry if you are offended. But I think a lot of people seem to be offended my that typical white women comment that Obama made.
I'm not offended cause I know what he meant. But whatever.
Thought I would clear up my end.
March 21, 2008 9:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not offended at all. Sorry if my tone was off. All this is becoming socialogically faskinatin', so no blame.
March 22, 2008 12:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Clinton's have been living under a state of delusion since Super Tuesday. That's about the time that we started to see the John King's of CNN and Chuck Todd's of MSNBC presenting the mathematical impossibility of Hillary ever making up the numbers.
Hillary cannot avoid the cold tyranny of proportional representation combined with an inferior ground game and a narrow financial base. Then there's the lack of planning for anything after Super Tuesday. She's being beaten at this game fair and square.
To sustain the MSM narrative, we have seen cable news present countless scenarios of Hillary sweeping the remaining states with 65% of the vote to demonstrate what she has to do to peg back Obama's delegate lead. All logic and precedent informs us that that's not going to happen short of an anti-Obama tsunami.
In the interim, Clinton, Inc has indeed dropped all their weaponry on Obama. There's also been an overeliance on exaggeration and conflation, which is beginning to catch up with her. Witness Hillary's dramatic description of her arrival in Bosnia - accompanied by Chelsea, Cheryl Crow and Sinbad. Hillary's description of the aircraft coming under fire has now earned her the top designation of 4 Pinnoccio's from the Washington Post - basically meaning that she talks with forked tongue.
It's particularly interesting that they could not find anything that Obama actually DID to fell him with a fatal blow. Instead, the narrative construction has been to turn something he DIDN'T do into a negative - i.e. Why didn't Obama denounce Wright?
All the better that they deploy a tactic that discretely spilled gasoline on the softly glowing embers of racial politics. The Clinton's have always known that the race card would become their best hope when all else would have failed. I'm now certain that there's a (purely political) part of Bill Clinton that has discreetly admired and respected fellow southern boy Lee Atwater. I admire Bill Clinton, but he has certainly brought himself down a few notches with the racially divisive game they have been playing.
Living up to his ever more formidable reputation, Obama seems to be heading toward being considered as having been burnished by the Wright flap. Obama's gifted facility with language must be extremely confounding for the Clinton's. He continues to inspire even when defending himself. Now that takes talent!
Indeed, if the Clinton's cannot construct a mortally wounding event into Obama's candidacy, then Hillary is toast. That's a pretty grim position to be in while proposing yourself as the better choice.
I very much doubt that we'll be seeing a Clinton concession anytime before Pennsylvania. But the narrative emerging at the end of this week will further erode an already quite tenuous construction (not even an argument) that she can become the nominee. This will further reduce the cash flow, which will further erode confidence, and accelerate the downward spiral.
Prediction: Hillary will yield gracefully after Pennsylvania but well before Denver. Eventually, the tribal elders will march on Chappaqua and genuflect in her honor and she will finally hear them.
Further prediction: Hillary's real test, indeed the very measure of her character, will be how hard she fights for the nominee in the general. Stay tuned.
March 21, 2008 9:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree Anthony. I am not worried about November, regardless of who the nominee is. I remember a point in the spring of 1988 when Mike Dukakis was 15 points ahead of George Bush - Iran Contra was still being felt, it looked like the party was unifying behind Dukakis and that Bush Sr was dogmeat, and then the tide of history crushed Dukakis like the tide of history is going to crush John McCain. Recession, foreign policy failure, scandal after scandal, domestic incompentence, lobbyist influence, past v future, 73 years old? Not a chance, that's why the right wing is trying so hard to help Hillary and destroy Obama.
I do think the continuation of a divisive and exhausting campaign will have a deleterious effect on the Dem nominee in November. Not enough to win it for McCain, even if Hillary is the nominee, but enough to make it much closer than it ought to be. It's obvious that the only way Hillary can win the nomination is through a brawl, and I would like nothing better than to have put an end to that possibility two weeks ago, but the reality is that she earned the right to continue her campaign in Ohio and Texas -- even if Rush helped her do it -- she earnded the right to see this through to the end of the election cycle. After Puerto Rico, if she is 100 elected delegates behind, behind in popular vote, behind in # of states won, and behind in swing states -- all of which is true today -- then (but only then), she has to step aside.
Before then, she has every right to continue. No, she doesn't get away with this cheating bullshit and get the MI and FL votes to stand -- that would be completely unfair and in violation of the rules of the nominating process as established by the Party and agreed to by the candidates before they took place. But she has earned the right to compete through to the last primary in Puerto Rico. That said, if she (aided and abetted by Penn and Wolfson) continues this bizarre strategy of torching the house to beat Obama -- alleging issues about Rezco while entertaining Rich and others who actually got favors for huge donations, conceding McCain's experience as a qualification for CiC while questioning Obama's, launching a false attack on NAFTA when it turns out you were an active supporter back at the beginning after all, etc. -- when she continues down that path, I think the superdelegates have the duty to step in and say "no, we are not going to allow a candidate who is almost hopelessly behind by every metric there is to fracture and destroy the party and damage its chances for a broad based victory in November by countenancing any further brawling along these line" One can only hope.
But even with all this carnage, or potential carnage, I am absolutely certain that the GOP will go down in flames in November -- I just wish it would end, and the negative energy would stop.
March 21, 2008 11:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
As the old saying goes, what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.
March 21, 2008 11:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Politico article cited in this post was loooonnng overdue, IMHO. As I've already said in previous posts, the corporate media was sustaining corporatist Hillary's campaign on a kind Schiavo-esque life support since at least the Potomac primary. It's nice to finally see some extra-blogosphere acknowledgment of that dynamic.
BTW, does anyone else find it perplexing and/or amusing that it seems to be shrill dead-ender night on the TPM front page? In all fairness, I have decided that if Hillary were to secure the nomination by superdelegate coup I'd be writing in Obama come the general. However, I don't imagine anyone here would give a shit, let alone post that on the front page.
Maybe I don't use enough exclamation points.
March 21, 2008 11:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
personally i will be one of the 5 dems voting for mccain if hillary loses. EOS
March 22, 2008 12:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
just curious as to why?
March 22, 2008 1:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I agree that McCain and Clinton's voting records are similar in some respects. They both voted to authorize the war, for instance, and I think he also voted for the bankruptcy bill.
But are there any specific issues that makes him seem like a preferable candidate to anyone but Clinton?
March 22, 2008 4:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe she likes the idea that McCain will get the chance to get more "prolife" judges on the Supreme Court. His judges will also be more likely to be on the side of corporations, and increased governmental authority over individuals. McCain is going to have to throw a lot of bones to the religious right, his lobbiest friends and will need to be "strong" and not cave to the civil liberty freaks, to get reelected in 2012.
March 22, 2008 11:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
The definite article "a" refers to one thing. the "e" in "women" refers to more than one woman. How can anyone tell what you think you mean if you can't keep straight the difference between singular and plural? Just asking ...
If I might make a suggestion, why not ask: "Why did the white woman cross the street?
Possible answers: (1) To avoid coming into contact with the ominous-looking black man approaching in her direction. (2) To vote for You-Know-Her who defends sleeping blond white girls (but not black ones) by answering phone calls in her pantsuit at 3:00 AM -- the scary goblin hour. (3) To get to the other side. (4) All of the above.
Now I know why Gore Vidal called Americans "among the most easily frightened people on earth." Quite an under-statement, that. To which Darth Cheney would probably nod and sneer: "So"?
March 22, 2008 1:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
I wonder what has changed in the last couple of weeks that put Obama over. Did he hit that magic 2040 mark? Did Clinton’s campaign get derailed by some scandal or revelation casting doubt on her judgment or damaging her ability to run against McCain? I mean if something were to come out that could be used over and over to decimate her campaign in the GE, I could see how she would be forced to concede- for the good of the party and all. I'm getting a bad feeling again about Dem chances.
March 22, 2008 1:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
What seems to have changed in the past week or two is that more and more people have sat down with a pencil and paper and a calculator, as I did weeks ago, and figured out what Clinton would have to do to win enough delegates to be ahead of Obama. The numbers were daunting when I ran them, and they are much more so now. Because Democratic delegates are awarded approximately proportional to the percentage of the votes won by a candidate, it isn't possible to gain as many delegates as Clinton needs without winning the remaining primaries by an average of 60% to 40%. That just isn't going to happen.
All that keeps Clinton going is the cooperation of the press in treating her as a very close second to Obama. Once the press decides to report the fact that she is too far behind to catch up, the Clinton campaign will be treated as quixotic and her donations will dry up even further. In addition, most elected Democrats, who are super delegates, will do all that is needed to decide the candidate sooner rather than later. Clinton is aware of this, and I hope will realize that her best move is to be a gracious loser.
March 22, 2008 2:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hoppy, I understand that Clinton isn’t likely to catch up in pledged delegates but neither is Obama likely to get to the majority without the SDs swinging as a group. No one has won the nomination until they reach that 2040 threshold. Fla. and Mi. will have to be dealt with. At the time the DNC decided they had to punish them, many in the DNC were admitting that in the end they couldn’t disenfranchise them (and Clinton was saying the same thing, only signing and honoring a pledge not to campaign there).
So it will come down to the SDs at the convention and contrary to the campaign spins, they follow their own counsel, not delegates or popular vote. Besides, the only way they could really conform to the will of the people since caucuses don’t reflect it, would be to go by the polls at that particular time.
That said, I don’t see HRC getting there unless she wins big from here on out and it becomes apparent that Obama’s problem is going to hamstring him, not out of the question. Everyone is parsing the videos of Wright but those are the tip of the iceberg compared to Obama’s handling of it and the church philosophy and associations that will dribble out for months. But it seems like week by week, McCain gains a little more against either one.
March 22, 2008 2:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
What's changed is that Barack Obama got derailed by scandal about as much as Hillary Clinton in the last couple weeks, which is to say he didn't get derailed.
That, plus the math finally makes sense to the crowd that determined their profession based on an inability to do the math.
Oh, and that whole Tuesday "More Perfect Union" speech. Perhaps you missed it. Here in wrestling country (Iow), it's known as 'reversal, two points.'
And Mark Penn finally got them, with the strawberries; it was geometric logic.
And a guy named Bill Richardson endorsed Obama. Something about uniting people, and raising the level of dialogue, if someone could explain what that's all about...
Oh yeah, Chris Wallace just told his bosses to call off the dogs. It turns out that playing the snip-clips of half a sound bite was marginalizing FOX, not Obama. Faith in the American People wins out!
And the Politico happened to realize that the emperor's gossamer wardrobe was just air.
And Mike Huckabee just pulled a Hillary, and backed up the guy in the other party...
March 22, 2008 3:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
I’m 110% sure my math is right (wait, did I carry the 2?). Yeah, they laughed at me, but I knew I had them and there was a duplicate key, there was…The only reversal I’ve seen is when Obama said he didn’t hear the “comments” in church (to Anderson Cooper), then said he did (in the Speech), then said he didn’t (Larry King). But the establishment wants to see him in it and he may be able to get past it; time will tell.
Bill Richardson did endorses him, But after Az. and Hispanic SW were spoken for. Don’t fret though; Geraldo Rivera is leaning and may endorse him on Cinco de Mayo. Chris Wallace, Politico and Mike Huckabee? Wow, that’s like having Fox, Drudge and God on our side. Look, I’m not a fanatic of either candidate, but it’s premature to count Clinton out. Personally, I want to see them on the same ticket but the partisans may have nixed that. The one (or two) who can beat the Republican Captain Queeg and his Clue game (it was Al Qaeda in Iran with the WMD) is the nominee for me. But elections are always funny that way; they’re never over till they’re over.
March 22, 2008 1:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Math You Can Believe In, Huh? This is not a new argument, and Hillary still isn't going anywhere until the primary season is over. Nor should she. I'm not sure why Obama supporters are so against having all the states have a voice. If it's already over...what are they worried about?
If Obama has already won, then he's won. Clearly he hasn't, because otherwise there'd be no debate. If it's up for discussion, then it's not over.
If the superdelegates had faith in Obama, they would use the math argument to push Hillary out. But they won't, because (sorry kids) major questions remain and are arising about Obama's electability and even those who won't admit it know it. His inability to win over working class whites and Latinos poses a serious electoral problem. Rev. Wright is a major general election question mark. Contrary to the wishful thinkers here, the Wright story is not over and his speech did not play nearly as well with independents, working class whites and Latinos as it has in the MSM and left-wing blogosphere.
There's no reason for anyone to drop out until every state has weighed in. I defer to the words of Bill Clinton on this: chill out, and let the voters decide. The Dems are in trouble in November regardless.
March 22, 2008 5:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Translation: let's not really look at the bloodying of our own and what that could do to our frontrunner. Nope, let's not look at WHY 'the Dems are in trouble in November regardless' [your words], the WHY being that the Hillary camp is willing for Dems to be divided and 'to be in trouble in November' if that gives her campaign the only path left.
Hillary cannot win now in any fashion except to by continuing to bloody another Dem.
March 22, 2008 8:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not sure why Obama supporters are so against having all the states have a voice. If it's already over...what are they worried about?
Because the Clinton campaign has said their voice doesn't matter. According to them, the voice of the people only matters until the end of the primary, then the Super Delegates are welcome to contradict them.
Herein lies a huge contradiction and the most incendiary rational for her candidacy. She has set-up a situation where if the SDs come in now in favor of Obama, then they're undercutting the will of the people. However if they come in for Obama after the primaries they're undercutting the Democratic Party because he can't win. Either way Hillary's supporters feel like the legitimate nominee - Hillary - has been usurped. Despite the fact that Obama will have won more votes, more delegates and more states.
The irony is that there is little doubt in the outcome at this point but Hillary's dependence on the super delegates leaves her with two paths to the nomination. Both would take a cataclysmic event to undermine Obama's candidacy. It's only a matter of whether Hillary is viewed as the person who hastened his demise, or not.
Here are the two scenarios for Hillary:
1) Continue her take-no-prisoners approach and hope that Obama is damaged enough for SDs to choose her. Leaving the Democratic Party bitter, divided and weak.
2) 'Suspend' her campaign. Then if something comes out on Obama that severely damages his candidacy, she has enough delegates that the Super Delegates could legitimately swing the nomination to her. In this case, she puts the party above personal interest, and becomes the savior of the Democratic Party.
March 22, 2008 11:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
How can the race not be over if there are primaries in PA, NC, OR coming up and Mrs. Clinton has nothing on her schedule for Good Friday? Mr. Obama is out there flying wildly from PA to OR, four speeches to his usual mobs, Q&As with voters up close and personal and Mrs. Clinton is at home in Chappaqua with no events scheduled? The tube is going to run that big, silly smile and the whispered hint into the ear of the other big, silly smile with the roar of the crowd and blue and red signs all bouncing around all evening and Mrs. Clinton is sitting quietly at home with her advisors and husband and no news is coming out of her campaign? She's not even going to church on Good Friday?
And the mob is beginning to understand the race speech for what it really was - a tender but honest consideration of why they still fear going over to that new Jamaican restaurant that got such good reviews in the city magazine.
March 22, 2008 7:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's the most interesting data point I've heard so far.
I thought her campaign was getting quiet lately. Not a lot of announcements except about FL & MI. Almost as if they knew that was their last chance to make this look like a horserace.
Then, it comes out that the campaign is in the red.
And then her schedule gets strangely empty. I'm not making predictions yet, because they'd just be wishful thinking. But there does appear to be some stock-taking going on in the HRC camp.
March 22, 2008 9:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
The only news scheduled to come out before the PA primary is Hillary's tax returns. Her WH schedule will divulge more damaging info as reporters pore over it and trickle out articles that put the lie to her experience claims. A prime example is the WaPo report that shows her story about running from snipers at the Bosnian airport in 1996 is a complete fabrication. Another is her cheerleading on NAFTA. A few more revelations like those and the media will go overboard and brand her a laughingstock. That backfired once but if they keep it respectful this time they'll seal it.
Other than that we may see more endorsements, most likely for Obama. We'll also see a slow but inexorable march of super delegates to Barack.
Once again I think Obama managed the Wright and Rezko controversies masterfully. He was either very lucky or intentionally pushed the timing to get them frontpaged and out of the way at this point. Either one could have been devastating if they'd happened in the midst of primaries a week apart. As it is the Rezko story is over and he has 4 weeks to put the Wright story behind him. The cablenets can't talk about it much more because there isn't any more news there. They have to move on because the economy is falling apart and Iraq is boiling up again.
It's a hoary old maxim that a month is a lifetime in politics. The overarching story you see today will be vastly changed by April 22 because of the intervening news cycles. She'll win PA but it won't be a blowout and it won't be nearly enough. There will be death knell sooner or later when one of her big supporters or a Nancy Pelosi, Al Gore or Howard Dean endorses Obama or publicly says it's time for her to concede.
March 22, 2008 11:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
In defense of MSM, at least CNN,
They have always made it clear that the math for HRC was a daunting task to overcome.
With that said, Hillary had 3 options:
1. Try to get FL and MI to count in some way. By
counting the existing tally or by a re-vote.
Either way, Hillary's math would look more
respectable.
2. The super delegate argument, that they should
vote their "conscience". Freeing them from the
math.
3. The electability argument.
It seems that she has lost on MI and FL.
She has won on the super delegate argument. At least the Obama camp is willing to go along counting on the super delegates to go with the "will of the people".
It remains to be seen if Hillary can win the electability argument. Super delegates are political animals. They look at the polls like the rest of us. So far all we can see is that Obama got hurt by Wright, but that it has leveled off. His speech plays well to Democrats but not to the Republicans.
I think the super delegates will at least wait to see the results of Pennsylvania, NC, and IND before they flood over to Obama. And we should also wait, before sending Hillary off as a racist monster.
On the race thing, Obama's speech on race isn't an epiphany to any of us who live in urban centers. It will be more interesting to see how it plays out in the rest of America.
March 22, 2008 11:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
I see it coming down to a very contentious brokered convention. I don't think Fla. and Mi. are settled. Obama and most Dems have said that their votes must be counted somehow. I hate to say it because I like Dean, but by letting this go on, a brawl in Denver just might be the result. I hope the animosity all around doesn't close the door on a combined ticket.
March 22, 2008 1:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
BrandoPolo, it's pretty interesting that Hillary supporters are now talking about prolonging the primary season when a few short months ago her minions were trying to jump MI and FL to the front of line when they assumed their state organizations, her name recognition and money advantage would make her the nominee by the end of the night on Super Tuesday.
Terry MacAuliffe her finance chief and former head of the DNC is the architect of the frontloaded primary system. The idea has always been to avoid these kind of long, wasteful, dirty primary fights. She built her campaign on that frontloaded primary system and when it didn't work what do we get? On to the convention! Let every state vote!
You don't get to change the rules in the middle of the game. Pretending Hillary is still viable when her organization is so bad she can't even win the delegate count in states where she's barely won the popular vote is foolish.
Obama is going to be the nominee. The only question that remains is whether Hillary can and will bloody him up enough to give the win to McCain in November. If that happens I guarantee you she has as much chance of ever being president
as Joe Lieberman.
March 22, 2008 11:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Right, that would be because Obama is taking and courting Lieberman votes.
March 22, 2008 11:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
"I'm not sure why Obama supporters are so against having all the states have a voice. If it's already over...what are they worried about?"
It's about maximizing our chances for Nov.
Notice Edwards didn't stick it once he knew he couldn't win. Clinton is just being a selfish jerk. She can't win, and is hanging on and harming our chances. Even worse, she and Bill keep praising McCain.
March 22, 2008 11:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
"It's about maximizing our chances for Nov."
I think the camps have a different take on that statement.
March 22, 2008 12:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, let's see which take on electability is more plausible:
1) Finally convinced that white resentment will make Obama unelectable, superdelegates throw their votes to Clinton. But since Obama has a pledged-delegate lead, the fight stretches to the convention floor. In Denver. In August. While demonstrators fill the streets. With the general election two and a half months away.
2) Or, convinced that Obama's pledged-delegate lead is insurmountable, superdelegates start to throw their votes to Obama -- say, by early May. Donations dwindle, and a oxygen-starved Clinton campaign throws in the towel to preserve HRCs chances for a leadership role in the Senate. Leaving the party six months to unite before the general election.
In scenario #1, neither candidate really ends up electable. The only end-game that produces an electable candidate is scenario #2. If you've got another victory scenario for Clinton, I'm happy to listen to it. But if it involves Denver, it's not a victory scenario for the Party.
March 22, 2008 12:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I posted about comment about this somewhere else. But can't find it. I'll try a short version before I run out.
Hillary runs off a series of convincing victories in remaining primary contest. Most important being PA, Indiana, NC a few others would help.
Polls show that Obama is declining in the polls. Most notably with white male voters.
Hillary argues that the GE will not be a 50 state strategy but in will be a red state/blue state game. She argues that she will stronger in that kind of a contest.
Obama gives his best speech, endorsing Clinton. Obama's flock begrudgingly follows.
Hillary is elected POTUS.
Anyway thats the short version. Need to go. Leave a reply if you want. Check back later.
March 22, 2008 12:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's a pretty good scenario. If Wright ends up hurting Obama a lot more than the recent polls suggest, the first few steps of this scenario are conceivable.
The part where I think it becomes inconceivable is where a candidate who has won more delegates in the primary magnanimously bows out because he's presumed to be unelectable for demographic reasons. The problem isn't just that this gesture would require unrealistic magnanimity; the problem is that it would require him to embrace defeatist assumptions about race relations that are anathema to his whole project.
March 22, 2008 1:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
And Hillary wins the nomination. This greatly energizes the Republican base and lengthens McCain's coattails considerably. Democratic gains at House and Senate levels are depressed. Hillary wins POTUS: as the candidate with the highest negatives, she's viewed as extremely toxic by incumbent Republicans. No legislative progress is made in Hillary's term as Republicans can't dare to be seen cooperating with Hillary and hope to maintain their seats, and the Dems don't have the required super majority to push their agenda through. Four more years of stalemate and screeching.
Obama has the longer Democratic coattails. Dems get a bigger majority in both House and Senate. Republicans are more open to dealing with Obama, and Obama is more open to dealing with Republicans. Actual progress in addressing and solving America's problems occurs. The Dems position is fortified for further elections.
I believe Hillary could be a good president. I also believe that Obama has the potential to be a great president. I'll go with the potential for greatness.
March 22, 2008 2:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think you're right that the superdelegates aren't going to end this before PA. Money problems, and HRCs own reflections on her Senate career, might be a more likely game-ender.
But, just to correct one detail: it's not true that the speech played well with Democrats and not with Republicans. It played well even with hard-right people like Chris Wallace, Charles Murray, and Mike Huckabee. And here are the relevant parts of the CBS poll:
"The poll shows 69% of registered voters saying Obama did a good job of addressing race relations, and 71% said he did a good job explaining his relationship with Jeremiah Wright. The poll also showed 63% saying they agree with Obama on race relations.
Among voters who have followed the Wright controversy, only 14% said they were less likely to vote for Obama as a result — with an equal 14% saying they were more likely to vote for him, and 70% saying it would make no difference."
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/cbs_poll_has_mostly_good_news.php
There's reason to be cautiously hopeful about race relations in America.
March 22, 2008 12:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry. This was supposed to be a reply to airwon at 11:06.
March 22, 2008 12:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the numbers. I think generally it looks positive for Obama, and I think most agree with that.
Just wanted to point out that the survey doesn't always break down the Democrats and the Republicans
However it does break them down on the question,
AGREE WITH OBAMA'S VIEWS ON RACE RELATIONS IN U.S.?
On that question there is a noticeable difference with party affiliation.
This will hurt him at some level. Just don't know by how much?
March 22, 2008 12:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
"I'm not so gloomy about our chances in November. The polls aren't particularly predictive at this point. Rather, I would look to the money and turnout we've seen in just the primary combined with the lackluster support for McCain amongst Republicans."
I've wondered about this too.
Think about it: Obama and Clinton are bashing each other every day. Obama had a miserable few weeks. McCain is riding high.
And yet, the polls show them essentially tied.
McCain on a good day and Obama on a bad day -- tied?
What will happen if Obama hits his stride and McCain stumbles?
March 22, 2008 12:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
If no one else has noticed, let me tell you something: Obama is not a WASP. This is America, the land where not being a WASP eliminates a lot of potential voters for you. There is still a substantial percentage of voters who can be scared out of their wits by the thought of someone with a different skin pigmentation being president, and a far too high percentage of voters who are far too prejudiced to ever vote for such a person for any office.
Once the real campaign begins, the Republicans will use the above facts to their best advantage, making sure everyone is aware of those facts in ways that help them to gather nearly 100% of the votes of Americans who still have those attitudes. We will be deluged by Willie Horton ads, but with Obama as Willie Horton, a former drug abuser, a former basketball playing urban neer do well, an African American, with the emphasis on Africa.
Then there is our thirst for war: McCain will play that card daily, winning the 30% of the voters who still are sure that we must "fight them there so we don't have them roaming our streets raping our women". Yes, I am being hyperbolic.
November's election will be a very difficult one for Democrats to win. The worst possible thing we can do is to assume anything else.
March 22, 2008 12:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
You sound a lot like Pat Buchanan and the generation he would have raised.
About how many voting americans do you think that would account for?
March 22, 2008 2:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
airwon Lieberman has been surgically attached to McCain's side lately. Any fools who still believe in that clown have obviously voted for and are going to vote for McCain. Won't stop Obama from taking CT again in the general though.
Polls also show Obama is more popular among Democratic voters nationally than Hillary. Most of his wins have been blowouts formed with a massive grassroots effort. Most of Hillary's wins have been by much smaller margins and in states where she had big city mayors and state party politicians with their political machines behind her from the start.
You can be sure the voters in the states she's won and the apparatchiks who man those party organizations aren't going to throw away this opportunity or their careers by sitting it out or voting for McCain in November when Obama is the nominee. And yes he'll get millions of votes that would otherwise go to McCain if Hillary were the nominee.
Given the choice between a candidate who runs and acts like a Republican, who proclaims real change is a false hope, and a Republican they'll vote for the less phony of the two, the real Republican.
Given the choice between the guy who was against the war in Iraq from the beginning, who didn't sign the Lieberman-Kyl bill, who doesn't call for more coercive diplomacy, who isn't funded almost entirely by the wealthiest people in this country and the Republican they'll pick the candidate who pledges true change, Obama.
March 22, 2008 12:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
BTW, everyone in the whole freakin' country seems to forget that
superdelegates can change their minds at any time either before or at the convention.
A "committed" delegate isn't committed at all; the current "superdelegate count" is basically a straw poll, not binding on anyone in any way.
Many superdelegates committed to Obama or Clinton before before the primaries and caucuses were well underway, before Obama seemed even remotely viable. Obama's gotten more "commitments" in the past month or so, but if he falls way behind or gets into some serious PR trouble that calls his viability into question, his "committed" delegates can follow the current polls and facts and switch to Clinton, which would force Obama to quit. The same goes for Clinton's supposed "delegate lead"; if there's clear public support for an Obama presidency, they'll jump ship.
Sorry for all the quotes; I'm feeling a bit over-punctuated today.
March 22, 2008 1:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I want to congratulate Obama, his wife, the Rev Wright, MSNBC, and all you Obama bloggers. Your hatred of the Clintons and your willingness to slime them more than the Republicans ever did, has made me feel that I cannot ever support Obama and would not vote for him if hell freezed over.
The thought of Rev Wright staying in the Lincoln bedroom as Obama's guest makes my skin crawl.
Congratulations, you have guarenteed McCain the nomination with your vile hatred! Way to go!!!
Hopefully Hillary will still prevail but otherwise Go Ralph!!!
March 22, 2008 1:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
I will overcome my intense, searing hatred of all that is Clinton to vote for her, if I had to.
Why aren't you going to be able to overcome your unreasoning and emotional hate of Obama to vote for him in the fall?
Why is your hate turning you into a turncoat? Why do you want more Republican control over America? Do you think they've done a bangup job of it so far?
March 22, 2008 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
The fact that Obama is going to win our nomination speaks well to the basic intelligence and courage of Democrats and like-minded Independents and Republicans who reject the politics of fear.
We've taken a dim view of ourselves because of the outcome of the past two elections. It's time to get over that disappointment and embrace the reality that, just maybe, 2008 ain't 2004.
March 22, 2008 1:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
And my cynical take is that the February sweeps weeks are over and so is the free press given to Hillary. Taken in conjunction with her report of financial woe in February that just surfaced, the corporate media whose primary goal is profiability will now realize that their falsely generated breathless excitement is now going, going, gone.
Now things are going quiet and the MSM will move to another target with some sputtering about Wright and Obama and some sympathy press when Clinton announces her folding of the campaign. The primary is over except for the sputtering at the end which we always seem to have.
Hillary ran a fairly decent campaign. She and her paid-too-much staff got snookered by GOTV efforts that by-passed the anemic local Democratic party structures--and believe me, these structures are anemic.
My two cents....
March 22, 2008 1:18 PM | Reply |