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Desidero: a response to Obama's fact check

A thoughtful post, but some counter points:

 "What I don't see is…how Obama…can compare whatever racist mumblings of his white grandmother to the prepared sermons of a preacher before his flock."

 The point here, as you can probably tell, is how these relationships parallel one another.  The stock counterpoint I've encountered most frequently has been "Obama can't choose his grandmother, but he can choose his pastor."  I suppose that's true to an extent, but it ignores what he was saying about personal nature of those connections by grilling him (rather obtusely, I’d say) on the literal bearing of these relationships.  I mean, yes, technically, he can "choose" another pastor.  But he can also "choose" to spurn his grandmother.  I've written before that my father, for all his wisdom in many areas, carries some unquestionably blue-collar baggage when it comes to homosexuals, hispanics, etc.  If that was all he was, or even what most of him was, just because begot me doesn't mean I'm contractually obliged to love and honor him.  God knows some people really hate their parents.  The point Obama was attempting to make, I thought, was that his relationship with Rev. Wright extends to a level far deeper and meaningful level than heated, three-minute youtube clip. He said as much.  Besides putting Rev. Wright's anger in a historical and cultural context, which he asks us to try and understand--not condone, but understand--he also asked us to cease our self-righteous chatter of gavels that in effect relegate a well-respected religious scholar and noted community activist to the cartoonish embodiment of "black hate."

 

Personally, I don’t see the difference between “racist mumblings” and “prepared sermons.”  Both are releasing pent up prejudices.  How is giving greater articulation to the same fundamental anger any worse or different?  It’s all catharsis for the same emotional undercurrent.  Does the fact "mumblings" could be better checked on second thought make the emotion less prevalent? How it’s expressed has less bearing than why it’s being expressed in the first place—at least in terms of this example.

 “He excuses Rev. Wright's anger because of when he grew up, but Wright was quite a bit younger than Martin Luther King, who had many more fights to wage against worse conditions, and who managed to keep his message of love and hope even while standing up to racism. Malcolm X split from the intolerance of his church and made his way into a more accepting if not humbled view of humanity.”

 

I think it’s pretty dense to suggest that just because Jeremiah Wright was younger than Martin Luther King, Jr., he has somehow been spared the worst parts of discrimination.  His age has absolutely no bearing on the nature, frustration, and pain of his experiences of being a black man living in America, and it’d be terribly thick to assume otherwise.  Furthermore, throwing up Martin Luther King, Jr. as an appropriate model for constructive protest holds Wright up to a very naïve standard of conduct.  How many Gandhis do you know, personally or historically?  Anger is a far more natural and inevitable human response than is becoming a historical paragon of peace.  I’m not saying it’s preferred, but I mean, let’s get real here.  To cynically dismiss Obama’s message as you have done on TPM numerous times, I’m guessing that your worldview is littered with half-empty glasses.  Expecting Wright to take some notional highroad shows a pretty credulous idealism, no? 

 

As for Malcolm X, he left the Nation of Islam not because of its anti-white rhetoric, but because he was spiritually repulsed by the adultery of its leader, Elijah Mohammad.  What’s more, the event that directly precipitated Malcolm’s departure had nothing to do with the NOI’s spiritual hypocrisy at all, but came when Mohammad silenced Malcolm for, interestingly enough, describing the assassination of JFK as “America’s chickens coming home to roost.”  Malcolm X did eventually recant his earlier anti-white rhetoric after leaving Elijah Mohammad, but it wasn’t a matter of him simply growing disgusted or shocked with the racist views of the Nation of Islam.  He had vocally espoused those ideas for over a decade, in terms far more racist and hostile than anything Jeremiah Wright has ever said.  He completely mocked MLK’s belief of nonviolent protest several times, which goes to show how not all angry black activists are endeared to non-threatening protest. But the point is, Malcolm’s spiritual reawakening came at the end of his Hajj—a profoundly meditative and soul-searching experience taken by a man who had lost an enormous portion of his spiritual identity—it was not a simple matter of splitting “from the intolerance of his church.”  To say the driving issue for him was being suddenly fed up with the racism he had believed in for over a decade blurs his motives for leaving and the nature of his religious meditation entirely.  What's more, you're using it to discount the reality and historical legitimacy of racially tinged black anger.  I do not agree with it, nor do I like it, but it's a visceral reaction to the perpetual treading on a collective sense of worth by a group who historically oppressed them with violence.  It is a different kind of anger than the hate of the KKK, emerging out of an wholly different collective experience and is, yes, therefore not stigmatized to the same levels that white society treats its own legacy of oppressive, exploitative race hate.  No, it's not okay, but saying 9/11 was the result of The Great White West's arrogant lording over ethnically colored nations is worlds away from African Americans genetically inferior, stupid, lazy, savage, criminally-inclined, n*ggers.  What sounds more hateful to you, and what sounds more generically angry?Yes, Malcolm X may have been an angry black man who eventually saw the folly in being angry, but it’s a far cry from even remotely paralleling the circumstances surrounding Jeremiah Wright.

 

Personally, regardless of Jeremiah Wright’s comments on Louis Farrakhan (he did not, by the way, ever say Farrakhan “epitomized greatness.”), Trinity Church is not the Nation of Islam.  Not only is Trinity’s father-denomination, The United Church of Christ, overwhelmingly white, but also the Trinity congregation is not exclusively black.  An op-ed in yesterday’s Chicago Tribune by a woman who attends Trinity (and who is, incidentally, married to a white man) admits that while some of the sermonizing might make some whites uncomfortable, there are always whites sitting in the pews at Trinity.   It is not a “hate whitey” church, wherein a dashiki-swathed Wright furiously expounds upon the evils of the white character while the enraptured throng echoes his sentiments with resounding Amens.  All of the controversial comments made by Reverend Wright I’ve heard just denounce white America, which, when you look two words down within the context of that statement, is rhetorically linked to the government (and who heads it up?  Why, the Grand Old White Party, of course!) Anti-American it might be, anti-white "hate speech" it most certainly is not.  And if it isn't anti-white, then how can it be called "hate speech"?  Hate speech, when I last checked, is defined essentially by race.  Wright has never called anyone a “white devil” in these speeches, nor has he ever demanded his “flock” eschew associations with whites or cooperation with white organizations.  Big deal, you might say.  It doesn't change the fact he said “white.”  Yeah, but he does not expound upon the perceived tyrannies or eternal flaws of white character.  He attacked the government, sometimes with honest points, sometimes with horribly looney ones, but the government--not the coveted Reagan Democrats, not the white people in attendance that day, not you, and not I.  The closest thing to a culturally racist remark was when he claimed Zionism had an element of “white racism” to it—a comment which, by the way, is regarded anti-Semitism-free by the Anti-Defamation League.  Trinity is not a racist church, despite its edgy sermons, as its members—black and white—have and will continue to attest.  Yet, to stubbornly persist with allegations of hate speech despite these accounts is truly bad, arrogant form.  In continuing to harp on the "hateful" content of these snippets with wholly undue self-assurance in your convictions, you are not only casting suspicions about the potentially “hateful” effects of Wright’s sermons on Obama, but you are also effectively extending the same baseless and ugly mistrust to the entire congregation of Trinity.


Comments (8)

Howdy, thanks for the response.

First, there's more than 3 minutes of Rev. Wright to go on, let's not minimize his effort.

Second, Obama showed up to Chicago and found Rev. Wright, and that's where his heart stuck. There are other churches in Chicago, and he notes that Wright was controversial 20 or so years ago, but Obama likes him - it doesn't seem like he's there for bingo night. Maybe he does like the heated rhetoric, so explain it to us. Obviously I enjoy a bit of tail turning myself, but I'm fully aware I'd be suicide on a campaign trail - doesn't Obama understand this? And while I'm critical of stances and viewpoints, I don't particularly hold Blacks and Jews and women and whites and other groups as inferior (though occasionally I may express disdain towards the species as a whole, or take the shocking belief that a particular group does something particularly well or poorly). But I'm not sure about the Good Reverend.

Third, Reverend is a profession, grandparent isn't. A religious leader has certain expectations. Controlling one's tongue, even expansive, inspiring speech, and even behavior that isn't too sexually explicit for the children in the pews. Presumably for a Christian preacher there might be expectations to reflect the word and values of Christ. Just a guess.

Fourth, okay, Wright doesn't have to be MLK. But the difficulties of being black in the south in the 30's was likely greater than being black in St. Louis in the 50's, even though individual experiences may vary. Time and location make a difference. And I've noted that people somehow assume Barack must have had a tough time in Hawaii (and Indonesia?), I don't know exactly why.

Fifth, fine, Malcolm X had various reasons he split with Elijah Mohammed, not specifically from reforming his view of whites. But he did seem to grow some grace and love with time. What is Rev. Wright's path, or is he static as Obama implies?

Sixth, he may not have said Farrakahn "epitomized greatness", but he made him "man of the year" recently (why exactly I'm not sure - the Million Man March was what, 12 years ago, and what has he done lately?).

Seventh, for a guy who's supposed to be so savvy, Obama hasn't played this all terribly smart, it would seem, and I wonder if his supporters recognize this, or are in denial, or just think he's brilliant 24x7.

Oh, since you have trouble believing Wright says racist stuff, try "You got some Christians who ain't got time to lynch people". Is that funny strange or funny ha-ha?

Peace, outta here.

I believe you are going to be shocked by how well the nation responds to the way Sen Obama has 'played' this. Those of us who see his pastor and his grandmother reflected in friends and relatives alike ar legion and include Mike Huckabee.

There's a recommendation if I've ever heard one.

Good bass player. Not so good on prison release judgment, I hear some grandmother's pissed at him.

Thanks for the pointless reply. You hardly addressed anything aside from "no, he's racist." Well, I'm sold. Especially on your claim that life was was worse for blacks in the 30s than the 50s. Shows are firm understanding of race in America.

I should say, in response to your baseless assertion that time makes oppression less powerful and relevant: Wright was 27 when Martin Luther King was shot, so I'd say that his experiences dealt with the same issues as any member of the Civil Rights generation.

Shit or get off the pot, Desidero. I don't need to hear you fart hot air.

That would have made him a teenager when Emmitt Till was lynched in Money MS for wistling at a white woman. I am sure Emmitt was glad he did not do that in the thirties when times were hard for blacks.

Thanks for the lofty dialogue, Joe.

Larry, I said "black in the south in the 30's vs. black in St. Louis in the 50's".

Emmitt Till was killed in the south. In the 50's it spurred national protest, only because Medgar Evers investigated and found his body. In the 30's it quite likely wouldn't have made the news. That Till supposedly had a white girlfriend in Chicago gives you an idea of the difference between north and south even then, and his ignorance of the brutal racism of the south was fatal.

And please, let's differentiate this from the Jena 6. A black kid whistling at a woman or a black woman just wanting to sit down on a bus are very different from 6 black kids jumping on a white kid and kicking him unconscious, whatever the motivation.

I mean, I had begun to write that lofty dialogue, but then I realized it would make absolutely no difference whatsoever.

I asked for you to consider the grandmother/pastor analogy beyond the literal definition of the relationships. But you simply countered by enlightening me with the literal differences. Yes, a pastor is a profession, in the literal sense. But when that pastor has been the bulwark of a community for years and fostered personal relationships with his parishioners then, no, the relationship isn't on the same distant level of professionalism as the one you have with your accountant.

You said a Christian pastor has certain responsibilities. Yet, seeing as how I doubt you frequent a black church or know anything about the man, perhaps you should take Obama's word for it that the atmosphere may include lots of shouting, dancing, and occasionally, some bawdy humor. Honestly, it's painfully condescending for you to tell any reverend, particularly one operating within a cultural environment you know nothing about, how to run his sermons or to "control his tongue." Don't think you're entitled to any kind of explanation here over "riding dirty," and don't think his crassness substantiates your claims. No one owes you anything here.

Obama has handled this poorly? I don't know, the critical reception has been pretty widespread, especially among such stalwarts of the liberal cause as Andrew Sullivan and Charles Murray. Even Bill O'Reilly had something nice to say about it. So Obama handled nothing poorly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the newspapers are beginning to muse that Hillary's sun is setting, no? Or is everyone who goes against Hillary delusional?

Your time and location argument is bogus, in both the theoretical sense and the dunderheaded literalism you're attempting to drive home with examples. It's bogus because the 50s and 60s were just as bad as the 30s, seeing as how all those panicky white folk in the South were lashing out with greater and nastier violence against Civil Rights activists. It's bogus because Wright was a twenty year old man in the 1960s. It's bogus because contrary to your posts in other threads that claim "we've essentially achieved MLK's dream," is well, just so fantastically thick-headed and ignorant I'm not going to bother telling you why. Racism, real racism, exists beyond colored drinking fountains and bus seats. It is systematic exclusion along self-sustaining economic, institutional, commercial, and geographic lines. Your twittish, Cosby-esque demand that black people "just get it together," completely misses the fact that the system perpetuates racism. But I won't go into it. You'll just respond with some snide, throwaway "gotcha" point that shows nothing but the folly of your own self-assurance.

"some Christians who ain't got time to lynch people"? Well, given that he's addressing some rather than the whole, off the bat, I'd say that no, it's not really hate speech, not in the sense of resist.org or the KKK. I never said Wright wasn't offensive, but it's not hate speech. I brought up several points about why I don't feel it is, and all you do is counter with a quote that addresses none of them.

Discourse? Give me a break. Your stock has plummeted. Don't bother with your cheap arguments.

Cheap arguments? I'd have to run an expense account to address all of these absurd excuses for people unable to control themselves. (And no, I'm not referring to dancing and singing at black churches).

I suggest you look up the difference between "rational discourse" and "rationalize the course".

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