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Obama vs Clinton on the Issues

I've been completely unsuccessful in pinning down any Obama supporters on issues in the comment system.  So, I'm offering a challenge.

Name an issue on which Obama offers a solution that is right and that Clinton is wrong.  Please note the word solution.   I'm not interested in opinions about votes for/against the war, tax breaks for the rich &c.  You know the old saying, "Opinions are like a******s, everybody has one."
So, you could say, "I'm voting for Obama because his plan to solve <issue x> is better than Clinton's plan to solve <issue x>."  Then, in the interest of full disclosure, you can give the points of the Obama plan that are correct and the points of the Clinton plan that are incorrect. 
The idea behind the stipulation is just that opining that the Obama plan for healthcare is "better than" the Clinton plan, without backing up the opinion with facts, is pretty much the equivalent of my seven-year-old daughter saying she likes Hannah Montana "just because I like her" (which is an actual quote).

This could be a useful exercise in reeducation of an unreconstructed progressive. 

If Obama supporters succeed in creating a good thread of pro-Obama talking points on issues, then you also have a useful resource for future exchanges.  Of course, Clintonistas are free to log in the reverse opinions about Obama-bot claims.  But, my goal is to collect facts that show why he is going to be the greatest President since Abraham Lincoln (which seems the general consensus among supporters), based on the details of his stated plans.  As Alex Bennett remarked on his show this morning, "Everybody is for change.  But what are you going to change -- and how are you going to go about it?"

Thanks.

mp


Comments (24)

As far as I am concerned, Hillary lost her chance to serve the people of the US and the world both as President and World Leader.

Four years ago we all needed someone to seriously challenge the Republican machinery and GWB to rescue the world from the wretched clutches of this current administration. Hillary opted out and decided to send the second best to fight the Republicans and GWB.

Her refusal to take up the mantle offered her by the peoples of the world, the American People and the Democratic party has led to billions in losses of money, assets and of course human life. The world has become far more unsettled and unstable during the last 8 years. Hillary could have come on board, challenge for the Presidency and save us this mess that we are in right now.

As far as I am concerned, Hillary did not want to compete with the GOP and GWB because she was not convinced she could win and what is more, she was looking for an easier and more direct path to the White House. She never envisaged that someone like Barack Obama would have entered the frey and be the proverbial thorn in her flesh.

Just by the many mis-steps in her campaign and the fact that she didnt expect to be campaigning beyond Feb 5th is proof enough that she never expected Obama to be truly competitive.

Her opting out of the challenge for presidency is proof enough that she is not fit for the role of President. Proof enough that she is not passionate enough about the peoples of the US, not passionate enough about her world allies, proof enough that she is not true to herself on providing the best leadership for the world. It is proof enough that while words matter, that her words are definately not genuine and hence in her case they do not matter. It is proof enough that she does not care much about ending the war in Iraq. Proof enough that she is not too concerned about finding those who did so much damage in the US on 911 and around the world. Proof enough that she is not the President the world is looking for right now.... maybe in eight years time. She would not be too old by then.

I am sorry but Hillary had her time to shine. She opted out and now... it is time to move on. Let us give someone else a chance to prove him/herself. Let us listen to someone else even if we have not yet proven him/her. Let us give ourselves a chance to redeem ourselves from this mess that we are sitting squarely in right now.

Let us welcome Barack Obama....

They are alike on most issues, but two come to mind for me immediately for me. I look forward to reading others' comments.

Health Care. Obama's plan won't garnish your wages if you can't afford insurance. For instance, right out of college, I was only earning $19k a year. After rent, student loans and car insurance, I had less than $100 a month for food, etc. Under Clinton's plan, if my wages were garnished, I'd likely have been homeless, unable to afford rent. I also believe that I would not qualify for public assistance with that income. So, I couldn't afford a roof or to eat, but I could get a physical if I needed one.

Working with Republicans in Congress. Obama's plan is to do so. Clinton reiterates constantly that she's experienced in battling Republicans and ready to do so again.

Does FICA garnish wages? Did you miss the part of both Edwards' and Clinton's plans that subsidize low income participants? Would Obama's own mother have been covered by his plan? Chataguas were about educating, not propagandizing.

They are alike on most issues, but two come to mind for me immediately for me. I look forward to reading others' comments.

Health Care. Obama's plan won't garnish your wages if you can't afford insurance. For instance, right out of college, I was only earning $19k a year. After rent, student loans and car insurance, I had less than $100 a month for food, etc. Under Clinton's plan, if my wages were garnished, I'd likely have been homeless, unable to afford rent. I also believe that I would not qualify for public assistance with that income. So, I couldn't afford a roof or to eat, but I could get a physical if I needed one.

Working with Republicans in Congress. Obama's plan is to do so. Clinton reiterates constantly that she's experienced in battling Republicans and ready to do so again.

Under Clinton's plan your premiums would have been subsidized and you would have had health insurance. Oh my.

Instead of writing a redundant post, I'll point you to Jack and Jill Politics where they laid out, not only the stuff that anyone who's paid attention these past 4 years already knows, but they added some other under the radar items too.

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1. Obama's Health care plan. I agree with a previous commenter that I feel his is better both from a policy perspective and from a bipartisan perspective. I think punishing people for not having health insurance is a bad idea when plans are not affordable. I also like his idea to increase the insurance protection for kids up to the age of 25. Hillary is ready for a health care fight, Obama is ready for a health care solution.

2. Leadership. This is not an "issue" per se, but it is all encompassing and speaks to a person's ability to get things done. Obama not only says he'll "reach across the isle" but he's done it. In Illinios when he sponsored legislation to require taping interviews of suspects he encountered a lot of push-back from the police force and from republicans. He went one by one and talked to people who opposed the legislation and asked them why. He addressed their fears and the legislation passed unanimously. Its this kind of leadership that will make his ideas palatable to independents and republicans. Again, Hillary is ready to fight for every issue, Obama is ready to find a solution to every issue.

I'm not going to answer your question regarding specific policies because I think you're missing a very important point.

The public knows that Hillary is a policy wonk.

But they dont care. If they did, she would probably be winning.

Hillary says "it takes more than words" and she's right. But it also takes more than policy.

Hillary has the policies, no doubt(i'm not saying OBama doesnt have them, mind you). But she lacks the "more" part of the equation. How is she gonna get it done when her campaign is busy resorting to the old, tired, politics as usual?

I believe that how you run you campaign is a good indication of how you're going to govern. Obama's campaign has been inclusive, optimistic, and steady.

Hillary's campaign, on the other hand, has been negative, divisive ( the number of states that "dont count" is up to 25 now) unsteady, and i would argue, at times angry. She cant seem to find a theme or a message that works so she changes it every week. People see that and they dont like it.

If the presidency was all about who has the best 10-point plan to set up a committee to study the effects of committees on policy, then maybe Hillary might have a shot. But policy alone wont fix this country.

In essence, this election is not only about WHAT needs to get done, its about HOW its going to get done. Do we want a 51-49 change? or do we want a 65-35 change? Because Hillary offers one, Obama the other.

And since you don't know how to use the internet (i can only assume because you imply that Obama has no substance on issues) i'm providing a link you might find helpful the next time you want to write about policy differences.

Barack Obama on the Issues

Hm, I would not wish to discourage anyone else from answering the challenge, but I freely confess that I cannot. I do not see that either candidate has a real advantage over the others on any particular issue or on "the issues" in general. Their positions are only trivially different from each other's. I would be very interested in reading an actual argument that one of them has an advantage over the other, but based on my reasonably thorough but by no means exhaustive investigation on this question, I do not see a set of policy differences large enough to equal an advantage for either candidate.

Their published policies may be very similar, because they have stolen from each other and from Edwards, but their track records are quite different as far as the committment they've shown to particular causes and the liklihood that they will actually retain these policies once elected. Here are the four that matter to me.

Foreign policy--This one is huge for me. Hillary has been consistently hawkish--more hawkish than other Dem senators even in 2002 (and again in 2004). There were numerous quotes from her as the Dems were trying to coalesce around a way to criticize the war they had voted for and the patriot act they had voted for where Hillary ran counter-to-message with phrases like "give the president the tools he needs," thus undermining the Democrats newfound spine in general and John Kerry's bid in particular. Obama's approach to finding common ground with Republicans extends to his desire to find common ground with America's traditional adversaries, something that we NEED to do with Iran and Syria if we hope to mitigate the vacuum left in Iraq after we withdraw. I think their differences on Kyle-Lieberman and their answers to questions about meeting with foreign leaders (not to mention that pesky AUMF vote) demonstrate a continued difference in their political philosophies regarding American diplomacy.

I think Obama is right and Hillary is wrong on that.

Lobbyists, ethics, earmarks, and transparency - Obama passed ethics and transparency laws in the Illinois senate and in the US senate. Obama did not accept money from federal lobbyists or PACs in this election; Clinton still does. Obama was the first to release the names of his bundlers; Hillary was the last. Obama released his tax returns; Hillary has refused. Obama voluntarily released information about his earmarks in 2006; Hillary did not. Hillary had the most earmarks in the 2008 defense appropriation bill than any other Democrat besides Carl Levin. Obama had one, for which he joined with other lawmakers, to provide education funding for severely disabled children. "According to the watchdog group Taxpayers for Common Sense, Clinton has secured 360 earmarks worth a combined $2.2 billion from 2002 to 2006 in all spending and authorization bills." (http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/clinton-can-boast-wealth-of-earmarks-2007-06-13.html)

I think Obama is right and Hillary is wrong on that.
In addition it has been a clear focus of Obama's legislative accomplishments that poor Kirk Watson couldn't remember:
* Passed a bill that created a searchable database that allows Americans to track how the goverment is spending their tax money. Including all federal contracts.
* Pushed ethics legislation in U.S. Senate Passed a bill that created a searchable database that allows Americans to track how the government is spending their tax money! You can look at all federal government contracts. (www.usaspending.gov)
* Pushed new Senate ethics bill to require candidates to disclose their bundlers
Pushed to create a Congressional Ethics Commission
* Pushed a law banning subsidized corporate flights for candidates

Hillary's ethics/lobbying/transparency efforts:
[0]

Executive power-- This one is huge for me and should be for all TPM-ers. Besides Clinton's aforementioned fullthroated endorsement of the patriot act and many of Bush's other power grabs in the early days of the GWOT, she still refuses to sign the "American Freedom Pledge" promoted by Center for Constitutional Rights to Human Rights Watch, MoveOn.org , Amnesty International USA, the Campaign to Defend the Constitution, the Electronic Frontier Foundation and True Majority, which states "We are Americans, and in our America we do not torture, we do not imprison people without charge or legal remedy, we do not tap people's phones and emails without a court order, and above all we do not give any President unchecked power. I pledge to fight to protect and defend the Constitution from attack by any President." All the other Dem candidates signed it. Hillary still hasn't. Obama is a constitutional law professor and has spoken at length about his commitment to restore the balance of power between the three branches of government.

Human rights-- Hillary initially said that we may need to torture in some circumstances "it should be the exception rather than the rule." Obama has always opposed it in any circumstance. Obama actually did pass a law in Illinois that seems likely to greatly reduce if not eliminate the possibility of inmates ending up on death row because they were tortured into confessing (as had been the case with several of the 13 death row inmates that Northwestern journalism school found to be innocent).

There are others, but this comment is long already.

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Bel - Your comment is baseless. Clinton promised the people of New York that she would serve out her entire Senate term, which ended in 2006. She deserves credit for keeping her promise, not criticism. I suspect you were not focusing on this issue when you wrote your post.

As to the question of policy differences, this article notes that they voted together 90% of the time, and discusses some of the key differences:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/31/AR2006123101004.html

Importantly, as the Washington Post article discusses, the candidates differ on corn-based ethanol. Obama promised that ethanol would be a key part of his energy program, and criticized Clinton for various votes. Clinton made no such promises; she lost the Iowa caucuses, at least in part, because of her unwillingness to commit to ethanol.

Of course, the studies about the environmental benefits of ethanol prove that it is not "green" energy at all. This has been known for some time, and one of the most recent articles is located at:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/07/healthscience/biofuel.php

Will Obama modify his position on ethanol? Did he take a position too hastily, without reviewing the underlying science? I hope he is ready for a full assault on this and other positions, and that he does not continue to take the defensive position that criticism of his substantive positions is "negative" campaigning.

I am no great fan of corn-based ethanol, but I think that fairness dictates that Obama was asked directly just a week ago whether he would continue to favor corn-based ethanol if the science showed that it was doing more environmental harm than good, and he said that he would not. It is, of course, hard to know when to trust that which a politician says, but I think that point of information is at least worth noting in your analysis. Unfortunately, I heard him make that claim on NPR, but cannot track down a transcript to cite right now. I would be obliged to anyone who might know where I could find such a transcript.

Great catch, I'm glad to hear he would at least reconsider the evidence, though it would be far better to hear him say "ethanol is backwards thinking".

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Check out this interesting comparison of recent Senate work by Clinton and Obama (from Grassroots Mom). http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/20/201332/807/36/458633

An examination of their past work is a good indication of how they would lead in the white house.

I would offer a couple of solutions on which Clinton is better.

1. Iran's Revolutionary Guard is, in fact, a terrorist organization that is giving weapons and training to insurgents who are killing Americans and Israelis.

2. The invasion and the occupation are, in fact, two different things. If Bush had left Iraq right after Saddam Hussein was captured, the so-called "war" in Iraq, i.e., the occupation would not be an issue. The invasion itself did accomplish some positive things at minimal cost. Removed Hussein. Removed any doubt about wmds. Removed a threat to Israel and Saudi Arabia. Caused Gadaffi to fold up his nuclear program and snitch out the Pakistanis. The occupation on the other hand has been a horror for everyone involved. Clinton's mindset was determined by Kosovo, limited bombing in Iraq, Somalia (torpedoed by Republican thugs, and Desert Storm.

3. She is right to withdraw, starting within 60 days, by a date certain no matter what the situation on the ground is. Obama's latest position is that if there is an increase in Sectarian violence -- something the Iranians or the Sunni insurgents can arrange any time they want to -- he may not withdraw. He thinks that makes him sound like CID material. Talking about "events on the ground." Surge redux.

4. She is right on health care. If you allow people to opt out, they will game the system. FICA doesn't garnish wages, and neither will automatic deduction of premiums. Obama is misrepresenting that. Obama is making the kind of Republican arguments they always make when we try to extend the social net. Low income participants are subsidized under the Clinton and Edward's plans.

5. She is right about the chances that the Republicans in Congress will cooperate with any Democratic President, especially a liberal one like Obama. She has seen it first hand. You don't earn their enmity. That's a Rovian talking point. The truth is they generate their venom on their own.

6. She was right about Reagan, as the great Jesse Jackson well knows. It is an insult to minorities and poor people to even mention Ronald Reagan's name without spitting on the ground. His policies were consciously designed to grind poor people and minorities into the dirt by making the country choose between social programs and national defense. Obama supporters aren't dumb. They just have no knowledge of history. The only way he could have been more wrong would be to say the Nazis were the party of ideas in post WWI Germany. McCain will nail Obama with it. I knew RR. RR was a friend of mine. You're no RR. Hide and watch. Clinton can tie McCain to Bush to Reagan. All the same cloth. Weapons or social program.

Either of our candidates can beat McCain. We have to decide who can govern, not who can get elected.

6. She was right about Reagan, as the great Jesse Jackson well knows. It is an insult to minorities and poor people to even mention Ronald Reagan's name without spitting on the ground.

So was Bill insulting minorities and poor people when he spoke at the dedication of the Reagan Building in Washington, D.C.:

Bill Clinton (May 5, 1998): The only thing that could make this day more special is if President Reagan could be here himself. But if you look at this atrium, I think we feel the essence of his presence: his unflagging optimism, his proud patriotism, his unabashed faith in the American people. I think every American who walks through this incredible space and lifts his or her eyes to the sky will feel that.

I profoundly disagree with you on 2. Invading was a mistake. The occupation was a second mistake, but invading based on longshot potential gains vs highly-likely potential dangers is part of that mindset that Obama wants to change. Also, many of the gains you describe did not happen until the Occupation was well underway. We did not find Saddam and Gadaffi did not agree to disarm until 8 months after the invasion. By that point it was clear that we had broken it (in the Powell-pottery barn analysis) and that if we left we would leave a stateless entity.

Also, we "Removed a threat to Israel and Saudi Arabia," by creating a MUCH greater threat to Israel and Saudi Arabia: a weak illigitimate government which will not be able to crack down on freelancers lauching terrorist attacks from inside Iraq after we leave. Anyone who really thought Saddam had intentions to attack Israel or Saudi Arabia without provocation does not recognize that he was a brilliant (and evil, of course) military strategist and survivor. Attacking either of those states would likely have resulted in an overwhelming response from the attackee and the US that would probably destroy him and would gain him nothing.

I also disagree with you on 1. Not because they're not a terrorist organiztation, but because she had ample knowledge (if she ever reads the NYT) that people in Bush's administration were looking for an excuse to invade Iran. She claims now she was caught off guard when Bush used the authority she gave him in 2002 to do what that bill explicitly authorized, so voting for a resolution which will not actually change the behavior of Iran's Revolutionary Guard in any way, but could be used as a pretext for a second disasterous war, is doubly wrong.

Absolutely. Bill Clinton should have pissed on the Reagan building.

6. She was right about Reagan, as the great Jesse Jackson well knows. It is an insult to minorities and poor people to even mention Ronald Reagan's name without spitting on the ground.

So was Bill insulting minorities and poor people when he spoke at the dedication of the Reagan Building in Washington, D.C.:

Bill Clinton (May 5, 1998): The only thing that could make this day more special is if President Reagan could be here himself. But if you look at this atrium, I think we feel the essence of his presence: his unflagging optimism, his proud patriotism, his unabashed faith in the American people. I think every American who walks through this incredible space and lifts his or her eyes to the sky will feel that.

I profoundly disagree with you on 2. Invading was a mistake. The occupation was a second mistake, but invading based on longshot potential gains vs highly-likely potential dangers is part of that mindset that Obama wants to change. Also, many of the gains you describe did not happen until the Occupation was well underway. We did not find Saddam and Gadaffi did not agree to disarm until 8 months after the invasion. By that point it was clear that we had broken it (in the Powell-pottery barn analysis) and that if we left we would leave a stateless entity.

Also, we "Removed a threat to Israel and Saudi Arabia," by creating a MUCH greater threat to Israel and Saudi Arabia: a weak illigitimate government which will not be able to crack down on freelancers lauching terrorist attacks from inside Iraq after we leave. Anyone who really thought Saddam had intentions to attack Israel or Saudi Arabia without provocation does not recognize that he was a brilliant (and evil, of course) military strategist and survivor. Attacking either of those states would likely have resulted in an overwhelming response from the attackee and the US that would probably destroy him and would gain him nothing.

I also disagree with you on 1. Not because they're not a terrorist organiztation, but because she had ample knowledge (if she ever reads the NYT) that people in Bush's administration were looking for an excuse to invade Iran. She claims now she was caught off guard when Bush used the authority she gave him in 2002 to do what that bill explicitly authorized, so voting for a resolution which will not actually change the behavior of Iran's Revolutionary Guard in any way, but could be used as a pretext for a second disasterous war, is doubly wrong.

So I guess your argument comes down to the Middle East would be better off if Saddam Hussein were still in power in Iraq. My argument is that by removing him and getting out right away, which believe it or not was Cheney's argument, we would have had no occupation, no terrorists in Iraq, Iran would have taken control of Southern Iraq, which they are going to do anyway, while we protected the Sunnis and Kurds ala the Kosovo model. Remember. You are not against all wars. Just dumb ones.

>She is right about the chances that the Republicans in Congress will cooperate with any Democratic President, especially a liberal one like Obama. She has seen it first hand. You don't earn their enmity. That's a Rovian talking point. The truth is they generate their venom on their own.


This is an argument most of my Pro Hillary fans use and I have a hard time understanding it. Certainly it does little good to try to convince entrenched republicans that universal health care is a good idea, but fundamentally you need to convince more people why you think it's a good idea, or present it to them in a way that they would find appealing. Or at the very least keep the process transparent so people can understand what's going on and the interests involved. Every issue is like this. Just fighting tooth and nail against republicans doesn't really help, you need to get the electorate to understand why what you are trying to do is important.

First I would point you to this post that does a great job of going over their legislative history:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/20/201332/807/36/458633

Second I'll just point to their views on solving the foreclosure problem.

Hillary:

1) Voluntarily support a moratorium of at least 90 days on home foreclosures;

2) freeze the fluctuating rates on subprime loans for at least 5 years until they can be converted into fixed rate, affordable loans;

3) Require regular status reports on the progress they’re making in converting unworkable mortgages into loans families can afford so we have real accountability.


Obama:

Create a Universal Mortgage Credit: Obama will create a 10 percent universal mortgage credit to provide homeowners who do not itemize tax relief. This credit will provide an average of $500 to 10 million homeowners, the majority of whom earn less than $50,000 per year.

Ensure More Accountability in the Subprime Mortgage Industry: Obama has been closely monitoring the subprime mortgage situation for years, and introduced comprehensive legislation over a year ago to fight mortgage fraud and protect consumers against abusive lending practices. Obama's STOP FRAUD Act provides the first federal definition of mortgage fraud, increases funding for federal and state law enforcement programs, creates new criminal penalties for mortgage professionals found guilty of fraud, and requires industry insiders to report suspicious activity.

Mandate Accurate Loan Disclosure: Obama will create a Homeowner Obligation Made Explicit (HOME) score, which will provide potential borrowers with a simplified, standardized borrower metric (similar to APR) for home mortgages. The HOME score will allow individuals to easily compare various mortgage products and understand the full cost of the loan.

Create Fund to Help Homeowners Avoid Foreclosures: Obama will create a fund to help people refinance their mortgages and provide comprehensive supports to innocent homeowners. The fund will be partially paid for by Obama's increased penalties on lenders who act irresponsibly and commit fraud.

Close Bankruptcy Loophole for Mortgage Companies: Obama will work to eliminate the provision that prevents bankruptcy courts from modifying an individual's mortgage payments. Obama believes that the subprime mortgage industry, which has engaged in dangerous and sometimes unscrupulous business practices, should not be shielded by outdated federal law.

Hillary focuses on stop gap measures that make good sound bites but don't address the underlining problem. Obama addresses how we got in this mess he also effectively separates real estate speculators and people that just plain can't afford the home they are in from the people that are caught unfairly in a system that would otherwise be able to afford the home they are in.

FICA is a tax, and a progressive tax at that. Hillary isn't proposing a tax to pay for her coverage. That's the point of having a mandate. Under the Hillary plan the government demands that you pay for your own insurance. And what do you imagine the consequences would be for someone who can't come up with as much cash as they are mandated to come up with?

No. Respectfully. That's the point to Universal Coverage. People who can't come up with the cash are subsidized by the rest of us. That's what society is about. To assert that people who are trying to extend the safety net are actually trying to hurt people is a Republican theme. Neither Clinton nor Edwards are looking to hurt folks.

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I can't find the NPR transcript either, but I'll take you at your word that Obama recently modified his long-standing position on ethanol. Who wouldn't, when confronted with the science? The significant drawbacks of corn-based ethanol, however, have been known for years, the entire time Obama supported it in the U.S. Senate. Nevertheless, Obama "pumped" it up in Iowa, and now backs away from it when directly confronted with the evidence that was known long before the Iowa caucuses.

Maybe my comment would be better classified as criticism of the media for largely giving Obama a free ride. I am sure more of these "modifications" by Obama will appear during the remainder of the primary and in the general election. He certainly will not get a free ride from Republican 527s, though.

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