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Hillary Exit Gracefully? Not a chance!
This is my first diary, so it might be a little ragged style-wise.
For anyone who thought that Hillary's final statement last night was conciliatory and concession-like, this article should disabuse them of that thought:
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4330128&page=1
The article states that the Clinton campaign is putting out a "concern troll" meme about Obama's "relationship" with a member of the Weather Underground, which really consists of going to a gathering in 1995 at William Ayers' house and receiving a $200 contribution from him in 2001. Taylor Marsh has been going on about this all day on her blog (and I use that term very loosely). Here's the money quote from her campaign spokesman Phil Singer: "Wonder what the Republicans will do with this issue." Thankfully, the article does point out that Bill Clinton pardoned a member of that very same terrorist organization (along with about a dozen other "convicted violent radicals".
When Hillary supporters accuse we Obama supporters of being nasty and negative, we need only to point them to articles like this. At no point has Obama brought up any of her dirty laundry (and I'm not implying that this is - it is MUCH ado about nothing). She is determined to go out in flames and take the party, her reputation, and the hopes of millions of people in this country with her. Very, very sad.




Comments (55)
Good first blog! Congrats!
PS, you can create links by selecting, for example, your "this story" with the mouse, and then clicking on the "link" tab above where you type in the text. It will pop up a box, and you can paste in the URL. Does that makes sense?
February 22, 2008 6:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yep, that's what I did (after repeated tries). Next time, though, I won't put the entire URL within the text - I'll just call it "ABC News Story" or whatever it is.
I'm a programmer - you'd think I could figure this out LOL! I feel like a dunce but I'm sure I'll get the hang of it soon enough! :)
Thanks for the kind words!
Carol
February 22, 2008 6:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nah, it's not your fault. The web site is suffering from a severe case of unusability.
If you're a programmer, I'm sure you're aware of the condition. (Not that *your* code is bad...but there's plenty of bad code going around...) :-)
In fact, I'm sorry to assume you didn't try the link thing. It does work for me, but the site as a whole seems to work differently for different people. Maybe it's a browser thing...
February 22, 2008 6:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great first blog! Hillary may be slow to exit but she will exit. And the party, Democrats and the country will not twitch at all.
February 22, 2008 6:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
"At no point has Obama brought up any of her dirty laundry ..."
I beg to differ. A large part of his campaign has been built -- very successfully -- on the Clinton "dirt." When he says she is divisive and "more of the same" we all know what he is talking about. Also, how could you forget this quote from Obama: "Republicans will have a dump truck full of dirt" to unload on Hillary Rodham Clinton. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5isOFwdbq0tsqatW6vJpkDRTI1gMgD8UL4K680
So - it is ok to support your man, but do not distort his record. He is the greatest POLITICIAN. He can insult you but not come across as doing so -- or you just forget about it because of all the hope. He is Teflon Don.
February 22, 2008 6:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama was answering Hillary's claim that she has the best chance to win the White House. Whether or not you think the Clintons are squeaky clean, there is a difference between Obama bringing up her dirty laundry himself and rightfully observing that the Republicans will show up with a truck full of dirt later on. It might be her dirt or it might be fill dirt from someone else's yard, but it'll be there. If there's one thing that the 90's taught me it's that Republicans have a preternatural hate of the Clintons.
February 22, 2008 6:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Republicans hate all Dems. People want to forget the Jimmy Carter years. People forget how they went after Daschle. What about their loathing of Pelosi. And if we think outside of our own shoes, didn't we Dems just DESPISE Reagan, Nixon, Ford and the Bushes (especially them)? We Dems created the phrase neocons and used it to disparage Dick, Condi, George, and Rumsfeld. Soon we will start attacking McCain. Ooops, correction: we already have. And believe me, there will be a plenty of blood shed in combat with Obama and the Republicans, if he is elected and tries to do anything mildly liberal. It strikes me as naive to think that Republicans will be any nicer to Obama than they are to Clinton. I think the real issue is the proven spinelessness of the Dems. They are so afraid of what the Republicans might do to Clinton that they are running for cover; in that rush, they are forgetting that the Republicans and Dems are just oppositional parties.
And I repeat, Obama's entire campaign has been subtly based on the "dirty past" of the Clintons. This is indisputable (and you didn't even dispute it).
February 22, 2008 7:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am not naive, nor do I think the Republicans will be any nicer to Obama - in fact, they'll come out with both guns drawn and try and tear him apart. However, we expect it from them, not from a member of Obama's own party. I don't care how passionately she believes in her campaign; that is not reason to resort to these nasty tactics.
February 22, 2008 7:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think they'll be much worse to Obama. In fact, I think we're about to see the dirtiest presidential campaign we've seen yet.
the gop must recognize they have a lot more to lose with an obama win. he actually has the ability (so far) to make independents and some republicans agree with liberal ideas. that could be devastating for them.
that said, I still think most republican operatives simply do not believe that the nation can elect a woman OR a black man in November, and are giddy at the prospect of facing either nominee, whatever the polls say now.
February 22, 2008 10:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not sure how to say this, but part of me relishes the up-coming battle. It will shed light on the dark side of the Right that will (hopefully) free those centrist conservatives who have been stuck in the dark since the Carter years. The positive light will show this weak character for what it is: hateful.
And it will be a battle. I think the biggest challenge will be for BHO to move quickly enough and strike hard enough in this sound-bite-echo-chamber media culture we have grown to accept.
Despite a previous thread equating Obama supporters to the Trotskyists/Stalinists some of us believe strongly that for the nation to be united, we have to work together. And yes - that means compromise. It is the idealists that expect revolutionary change (I will not name names or pyrrhic populist candidates) from a president who leads (not dictates) a nation with such diverse views as ours.
Gasp - we(I) expect compromise. For example, just because I want to legalize all drugs means that I know how to go about it in a way that is effective. Nor does it mean that all drugs should be legalized. I am for UHC, but I know that mandating something so complex and individual really chaffs the asses of the individualists of this country. If racism/sexism has not been legislated out of existence, guiding the country to take a step closer to a hybrid socialist/capitalist government will take time.
An argument is not won by declaring the "other side" wrong. It is won by convincing them to see your POV.
Kaizen
February 23, 2008 12:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
I would just put in that the more Dems we can elect in congress the less the dem agenda will have to comprimise. One of the better arguments for Obama's electibility is the prospect of some pretty serious coattails come November. this is why red and purple state dems are backing Obama. the down ticket races will be greatly effected should 'the most devisive dem' be our candidate. I'm really looking forward to a Senator Udall here in CO and i'd be much more confident of his victory should Obama head the ticket.
February 23, 2008 3:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
First of all, Obama is just returning Clinton's jab about how she's more electable. Once again, Hillary Clinton likes to punch people in places where she's vulnerable. He doesn't have a right to come back on this point?
I'm not a Democrat and I don't really hate any of these people. I have plenty of opinions about their public service, some of which do leave me to question what kind of person could do the things that they do (yeah, I'm thinking of Bush.)
I don't know really how to justify why there's a difference between the hard-right hatred of the Democrats and the hatred of the Clintons, but I do see it rise to a seething level with the latter. Maybe it is equivalent to the vitriole that comes from the left over Republican icons like the Bushs and Reagans. You're absolutely right about the fact there are many other targets and that he'll become one, but this isn't a matter of them being nicer to Obama as much as it's a matter of them being meaner to Clinton.
Also, consider that Obama isn't really saying anything that polls aren't showing. The general election is about bridging the middle and while she does very well with your hardcore, working-class, party Democrat Obama has been doing much better with independents.
I do dispute that "Obama's entire campaign has been subtly based on the "dirty past" of the Clintons." This isn't even close to being, as you say, indisputable. This is nothing but absurd, ad hominem hyperbole on its face.
February 22, 2008 7:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
How is his statement (which happens to be true - anyone who breathes knows about the Clintons' problems over the years) the same thing as putting this "terrorist" meme to the press? They didn't just say "Gee, the Republicans are going to have some dirt on Obama if he's the nominee" - they actually put the story out there and then wondered how the Republicans would use it. That's reprehensible and it's dirty pool. This is really beneath her and she's not going to do her reputation any favors if she persists in this strategy. I live in NY and she's my Senator, and I will not vote for her again if she continues down this road.
February 22, 2008 7:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
I thought it was dirty at the time. but lately I've just been thinking it's great-- it allows his team to work on these charges now instead of later.
the only danger I was seeing was that they may be defining him for the gen pop, but I think he's already defined himself.
February 22, 2008 10:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Something I don't understand about Clinton's attacks on Obama is the way (and the article you linked provided one of a couple parallels here) that she keeps attacking him on issues where she isn't clean herself, much like the way she tried to criticize his legislative record as being less than substantial.
There's been a question in my mind all day long with regard to Hillary and McCain: Why do they do this? Why do they try to claim superiority on issues where they're vulnerable? Do they just not think anyone will challenge them on it?
With Clinton v. Obama it kind of makes sense to me because she really doesn't outclass him on much. She tried to tout experience, but that didn't seem to make a dent. She tried to criticize his rhetorical prowess, but the fact is that he's really just better at this than her and she's really only drawn attention to this.
With McCain I guess it makes sense to keep selling himself as a champion of ethical behavior because he never gets called on it.. or didn't get called on it until this week.
Even so, you see politicians do this all the time and it's one of those behaviors that I just don't understand. Glass houses, etc.
February 22, 2008 6:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is something I've pondered as well. I think the Clintons' attacks on issues they themselves are vulnerable on are pre-emptive. Then, if they are attacked on the same issues they can portray it as tit-for-tat politics, getting even, and hope the facts are lost in the soup.
This strategy requires that media reps play along (faux balance, reporting only the back-and-forth), which has certainly been the case for Clinton. Her target audience is 'low information' voters, who don't follow issues closely, and for this audience whoever makes the first charge comes out ahead by portraying it as substantive and the subsequent (accurate) charge is then characterized as a "political" personal counter-attack.
Low information voters can't judge the magnitude of infractions or the veracity, just the pattern and chronology. So, in their minds the Clinton charges against Obama regarding NAFTA overcome the Clinton-Penn-Wolfson ties to Colombia (and it's always reported as ties to Colombia rather than ties to a regime that kills union organizers on the street). Rumors about Rezco balance a mountain of unsavory $$ connections. A charge of elitism balances long history of distain for working class voters on the part of HRC.
The boldness of the first strike also carries the cachet of hard-fighting aggressiveness that will be needed against Republicans - she can play their game. And for voters who are desperate for a win against Republicans, that's all that matters - making an opponent a punching bag, and getting the media to follow course, looks like a winning strategy to voters who don't follow substance closely.
And it also comes down to desperation in terms of options for Clinton - what other options does she have with her huge reservoir of negatives. Preemptive attacks may not carry the day, but what else can she do? She's turned down every opportunity to take the high road, that would have at least preserved her role in the Party and in her place in History. The Clinton's have always gone for the short-term win - if they can get past the current challenge, regardless of methods, they think they will have the opportunity to rewrite history.
April 19, 2008 12:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
What the hell are you talking about that Obama hasn't brought up any of "her dirty laundry"? Who do you think is feeding negative stories to the press about her? Who do you think is posting the videos at youtube? Do you really think that the Obama campaign doesn't make the press calls every morning and promote Clinton's gaffes and mistakes?
That's the way campaigns work. They make their phone calls every morning, they work their reporters, they try to feed unsourced stories to the media. How do you know that a reporter didn't ask him about the story that's been out there for several weeks now? We don't know the context of the quote and we have no way of knowing it.
February 22, 2008 6:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Could you be a little less specific?
Hillary Clinton has repeatedly and publicly attacked Barack Obama in recent weeks in very specific ways. I do not see Barack Obama returning the favor. Other than allegations about "how things work behind closed doors," can you provide an example that illustrates your point?
February 22, 2008 7:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Look, I like Barack Obama and if he is the nominee I'll vote for him, but I'm not so naive and gullible as to think that he's not playing hardball, and in fact certainly did in state senate elections. This notion that we're on opposite "sides" and one candidate is purer than the other and godly motivated in all things is bullshit. He sure gets his digs and insults in at the debates as well as she does.
It's absolutely amazing to me the number of people who seem to think that it's always the "other team" that does all the dirty tricks and works the refs. That's just silly, we're adults here, not kids at a pep rally.
February 22, 2008 8:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
So, nothing? We just get the "Campaigns are dirty, Obama is in a campaign, Obama is dirty" syllogism and some vague talk about youtube videos and playing hardball? No specific example at all?
February 22, 2008 10:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, DF. BevD run around these threads browbeating and cursing at posters for being imprecise, failing to use critical thinking, and gullibly falling for gossip and innuendo--but apparently only when it hurts her favorite candidate.
February 23, 2008 2:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
DF: Why did Obama promise to forego private election financing if his opponent did, but is now waffling? Why did Obama say that the Super Delegates should just follow the will of the voters, but then has paid them almost $1 million to secure their votes? Why has Obama attacked the pro-Clinton 527, when a similar group supported his cause in California? Why did Obama claim that he would not touch the retirement age for social security or the benefits level, but then said that every issue, including these remain on the table? Why did Obama attack Clinton for her clear waffle on the immigrant license issue, when he himself gave an incoherent answer on the issue himself? Why did Obama trash a labor union that supported Edwards' campaign in Iowa as a "special interest" but has now negotiated and secured an endorsement from the same group. Why does Obama base his entire campaign on "hope" and "change" but is using former Clinton staff in his team of advisors AND trotted out the Kennedys -- especially Ted Kennedy -- as his key endorsements (Kennedy -- who is only outranked in the Senate by Robert Byrd, whom Obama has paid to get his Super Delegate vote).
Why is Obama perceived in such innocent terms despite these contradictions? Why are failings in Clinton a sign of some horrible personality flaw, usually assigned to women of power?
February 22, 2008 7:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
You have provided a list of things you don't like about Barack Obama, not a list of personal attacks he has made on Hillary Clinton.
February 22, 2008 7:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
I stand by my statement - the Obama campaign has rarely (if ever) brought up any of her dirty laundry. Highlighting her gaffes and mistakes during the campaign is valid and is NOT the same thing as putting out patently false, ridiculous information like his supposed "ties" to terrorists based on a party over 10 years ago and a $200 donation. I haven't heard him bring up Whitewater or any of the myriad alleged ethical problems that the Clintons have had over the past years (including big donor Norman Hsu, who is now in prison). I'm not saying these allegations are true, but neither is this ridiculous story. Obama will defend himself, without a doubt - he would be stupid not to. But he could have a field day if he wanted to, and he hasn't.
DF, I don't understand it, either. I've never understood why politicians hit others with dirt that they themselves are guilty of (like Newt Gingrich tearing Clinton apart for his Lewinsky affair when he was doing exactly the same thing). It seems like political suicide, but perhaps at this point she doesn't care - even if some of the negative stuff spills back on her, she has succeeded in pulling him down as well. She has nowhere to go but up, and most people who view her negatively won't be too surprised with these latest antics. I guess she thinks it's worth a shot.
February 22, 2008 7:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Carol: I am trying to find information linking Clinton to the "terrorist" story. According to the NY Sun, they have not commented on the mattter.
Obama does not have to bring up Clinton baggage in specific terms because all he has to do is refer to it in broad language: "more of the same," "need a fresh face," "dumptruck of dirt," "politics as usual," and "divisive" are all ways of referencing the Republican attacks on the Clintons.
Also -- I would love to see one of Obama's fans comment on the list of contradictions I posted about Obama's "ethics." I continue to see comments saying that Clinton (and now McCain) call others on ethics when they are unethical. But no one has responded to the Obama contradictions. Why is he teflon don? He does get a free pass.
February 22, 2008 7:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Darren, there was a link in my diary to the ABC News story by Brian Ross:
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4330128&page=1
Yes, the New York Sun article (on Feb. 19) said that Clinton "declined to comment", but I guess the campaign changed their minds and decided this was too good to pass up after last night's debate failed to taken him down a notch.
February 22, 2008 8:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Um, the Hillary campaign is a little late to the issue. I read about this last week on Larry Johnson's blog.
As far as I know, Bloomberg News Service isn't the "Hillary Campaign."
Neither is the New York Sun.
If you are indeed a New Yorker, you must know this.
February 22, 2008 7:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, Keith Olbermann and Jonathan Alter were just talking about this issue and Alter completely dismissed it as the last-ditch effort of a flailing campaign (he likened it to Bush Sr.'s feeble attempts to brand Bill Clinton as a long-haired hippy before the election). Interesting take on the issue...
But see how it's getting talked about now - the Clinton campaign got it out there on the networks, so I guess they accomplished what they set out to do.
February 22, 2008 8:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh bullshit. This story has been floating around for weeks. Singer asks a legitimate question - what will repubs make about it? Why should the Clinton campaign be held to a different standard than the Obama campaign? Why should the Obama campaign bring up the "electability" issue but the Clinton campaign isn't allowed to?
February 22, 2008 8:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, the story had been floating around for weeks but had NOT been picked up by any of the networks. There is nothing in any of the stories (Politico, New York Sun or Bloomberg) alleging that he did anything wrong - one event 12 years ago and one $200 contribution 7 years ago is pretty slim evidence of his "collaboration with terrorists". But the Clinton campaign obviously thought this was too juicy to pass up, especially in the wake of 9/11, and ran with it. It's still up on Hillary's website and I think it's reprehensible and disgraceful. I daresay you won't find anything like that up on Obama's website (like, perhaps, her ties to a convicted criminal Norman Hsu?)
February 23, 2008 9:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Carol said: "Highlighting her gaffes and mistakes during the campaign is valid and is NOT the same thing as putting out patently false, ridiculous information like his supposed "ties" to terrorists based on a party over 10 years ago and a $200 donation. "
According to the link you gave me, someone at Clinton's camp emailed the NY Sun and Politico stories to "reporters." I do not like petty politics either - so shame. Last week, Obama's camp said that Clinton was going to "poach" pledged delegates. This went all over the media; Clinton's camp immediately denied it. I just do not see the innocence that you guys see with Obama. He is very slick. Very. When you are slick, you trash subtly and come out looking very good. He once said Clinton was scratching and clawing and that's how she acts when she is upset. Love the "evil b" symbolism.
Even when Clinton does something good or acts to defend herself, she is criticized. Although the media went into a lather over ambiguously racial comments in NH, when Shuster said that Clinton was "pimping" Chelsea, a lot of mainstream media said she was faking outrage for attention. The same with the overblown "tear." I never even saw a tear. Of course, she was faking or desperate.
The article you linked me to said she was ignoring "her own ties to radicals," but only talks about her husband pardoning political activists. WE heard so much about the Kennedys' endorsements that I actually expected the family dog to endorse Obama too, but all the children of Robert Kennedy endorsed Clinton and this barely received coverage. We heard about Obama's black endorsements, but not Clinton's black endorsements. We heard that Kennedy was going to get Latino votes, but little attention was paid to the endorsements of Clinton by the UFW and Ceasar Chavez, Jr.
Obama does not have to attack Clinton. The Obamedia does. Clearly the media has been biased in its coverage. It is easy to sit back and take the high ground when the major papers are doing a snowjob on the opposition. Of course, as I said before, the candidate himself has engaged in attacks as well.
February 22, 2008 9:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Obamedia? Seriously?
February 22, 2008 10:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
This whole (insert enemy)-media line kills me.
Depending on who you ask - the MSM is owned by the Liberals, The Right Wingers, The Clinton Machine, and now Obama.
Not sure which one I should hate the most. Might just be easier to default back to blaming the Jews.
(I know - a repost. As an Obama supporter, I refuse to take responsibility for my actions (inattentiveness) and blame it on the damn log-in mechanism)
February 23, 2008 12:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
darren12000 -- Here are some observations on you list of 'contradictions', with the note that my knowledge/best guesses come only from what I have read in news accounts.
>>>Why did Obama promise to forego private election financing if his opponent did, but is now waffling?
He is not waffling now. He is saying the same thing now that he did in response to the questionnaire (late 2007, I think?). He said then, and is saying now, that if and when he becomes the nominee he will meet with (or have his people with the people of) the Rep. nominee to see if they reach agreement on some ground rules (things like use of free TV time, spending by 3rd parties on the candidates' behalf, adjusting for when primary spending ends and general election spending begins, etc.) with his goal to be taking public financing if possible. He recently repeated that same position when McCain started raising the issue -- pointing out that he, Obama, is not yet the nominee. I'm amazed that someone as superstitious as McCain doesn't accept that it is premature to beging those discussions now. (And I believe I read that neither McCain nor Clinton even responded to the questionnaire. Only Obama, Edwards and maybe one other did.)
>>>Why did Obama say that the Super Delegates should just follow the will of the voters, but then has paid them almost $1 million to secure their votes?
Setting aside your interpretation of **why** his fund (can't remember its name) made donations to other candidates, he is simply stating his opinion that superdelegates should follow the will of the voters and support WHICHEVER candidate has the most 1) votes, 2) states, and 3)pledged delegates. He is not proposing that his opinion be enforced in some formal way (in contrast to Sen. Clinton's opinion that fixed rules should be changed to seat the MI and FL delegates.) and his proposed resolution would work against his interests (and against those expenditures you say he made for a purpose) if Sen. Clinton should turn out to be the candidate with the most votes, states and pleged delegates. Note: at the time he voiced this opinion, by the way, he didn't have a lead in the popular vote (I don't think), he had only a thin margin in pleged delegates, and he did not have the plurality of states that he has now. The implication of his opinion (I'm assuming - haven't heard any statements on this part) is that if the two candidates split those indicators of the voters' will (votes, states, pledged delegates) then his proposed course of action for superdelegates not hold. ---- It's actually a pretty reasonable proposal when you think about it. I believe (not sure) that the only nomination that depended on superdelegate intervention (Hart-Mondale), Mondale was ahead in all 3 categories and the superdelegates added enough to make it official (Don't hold me to that however; haven't researched it.)
>>>Why has Obama attacked the pro-Clinton 527, when a similar group supported his cause in California?
Because the 527 (read somewhere there were 2 actually) that have supported his cause were pre-existing organizations with a distinct purpose of their own and he is the candidate that best promoted those purposes. (And for the record, the Obama campaign has protested and ask that the organizations NOT put out ads on his behalf, but there is not a great deal that a candidate can legally do .. unfortunately.) That's what 527s are supposed to be: particular interest groups that may support candidates who, they feel, advance those interests. (E.g., MoveOn.org has the goal of greater grassroots public participation in government.) The new 527 - ALP -that will be running ads to support Clinton is being created only now and although it states a 'neutral' purpose (supporting interests of the middle class or some such), it intends to be active only in only 2 states - OH and TX (with a third - PA - if there is enough money left over) and only during a specified period of time: the weeks before the Dem. primaries in those states. That, the argument goes, takes it OUT of the category of 'legitimate' 527s and reveals it as simply a method to get around the problem being faced by the Clinton campaign: wealthy donors who are prepared to give more money but who have already donated the maximum allowed by election law. That's the difference: a legitimate 527 v. a sham designed to get around election law contribution limits. The Obama campaign has warned the 527's organizers (not Clinton herself) that they consider it to be illegal and will take steps to challenge its legitimacy. Perfectly reasonable and, in my opinion, smart. Clinton is quite free to challenge any 527 supporting Obama on the same grounds ... and they *should* if the facts are there.
>>>Why did Obama claim that he would not touch the retirement age for social security or the benefits level, but then said that every issue, including these remain on the table?
I'm not as familiar with this area but as I understand it his current proposal, which emphasizes lifting the contributions cap, does not include lifting the age or the benefits level but he declined to say they would never be touched if different arrangements had to be considered. All of this, by the way, is a great deal more substantive and specific than Sen. Clinton's proposal re: Social Security .... which is consists of 4 words only: "form a bipartisan commission."
>> Why did Obama attack Clinton for her clear waffle on the immigrant license issue, when he himself gave an incoherent answer on the issue himself?
Maybe I missed something but I never heard an incoherent answer from him on this issue. In the same debate where she wound up waffling, he said quite clearly "I support issuing licenses to illegals because it is a matter of security" (my memory, perhaps not the exact words but close enough). At a later debate Sen. Clinton SAID he had been incoherent on the issue and he did not get into a "Was so!" - "Was not!" - "Was so!" dispute with her. Maybe that means he made an incoherent response sometime that I never heard, or maybe he simply didn't want to descend to that level... (sort of a joke)
>>> Why did Obama trash a labor union that supported Edwards' campaign in Iowa as a "special interest" but has now negotiated and secured an endorsement from the same group.
I don't think he 'trashed' a union or any regular union endorsement for Edwards or anyone else. He was negative (in Iowa? - can't recall) about a 527 that a union had created that was going to be buying ads on Edwards' behalf. Actually, I disagreed with Sen. Obama on that criticism, because he was assuming without proof that the ads were going to be unfair along the lines of Swift Boaters. But 527s are legal and, as noted above, it is difficult/impossible for a candidate to stop their actions. So I thought at the time that Obama should have waited until the ads came out and then complain if they were unfair. (As it turned out, when the pro-Edwards ads were run they were very straightforward and unlike the Swiftboat ads.) So, see, his supporters don't think he's all perfect and walks on water...
>>>Why does Obama base his entire campaign on "hope" and "change" but is using former Clinton staff in his team of advisors AND trotted out the Kennedys -- especially Ted Kennedy -- as his key endorsements (Kennedy -- who is only outranked in the Senate by Robert Byrd, whom Obama has paid to get his Super Delegate vote)
Well, I really don't know if having been in government for many years means that someone, such as Kennedy or Pres. Clinton's staffers, doesn't support and hope for change! I certainly hope not. And, seriously, I don't think that at this point in his life and career, Robert Byrd's vote can be "bought" by anyone! -- More seriously, I'd be rather alarmed if Obama didn't have strong support from experienced Senators like Kennedy, Kerry, Leahy, etc. (and Representatives and experienced advisors), because if he wants to truly bring about change, he's going to have to have co-workers within and who understand the various governing instiutions. In fact, the absense of such connections and staff has seriously hampered other 'change' Presidents or candidates from Presidents. It's one of the things that we admire about him.
Anyway, I'm certainly not a spokesperson for the Obama campaign (unless a few small donations and a day or two of making phone calls qualifies one) but those are answers that are available to anyone who simply pays attention and follows, factually, what is happening. Hope it helped clarify some things.
And, for the record, I agree with Carol Soprano that there has been a vast distinction between the dirty tricks, attacks and distortions made by the Clinton campaign and Obama campaigns. He has **responded** to attacks in ways that I'm quite sure have smarted and been unpleasant for the Clintons. He should - wanting to get away from 'politics as usual' doesn't mean he's supposed to lay down like a doormat and get run over. But, aside from defending himself and fighting fire with fire, he has not proactively concentrated on attacking -- as Clinton has -- but has concentrated on getting his positive message to the voters.
I've also, sadly, reached the same conclusion as Carol: that because of the way Clinton has carried out this campaign, I cannot vote for her (although as a NY resident and woman around her age, I'd previously proudly supported her in both Senate campaigns.) -------- I do, however, still hold out a perhaps forlorn and wistful hope that she will manage a graceful exit. I think she has the capacity to do that and, if she can be so "un-Clintonian" as to do so, that she would have a very grand future in the Senate and perhaps in other, grander capacities. I still hope.
February 22, 2008 11:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well put. Good line about not every supporter "lockstepping" behind the Obamagod. I think that meme has gotten too much play for too long.
It is not Obama supporter's fault that the other candidates (sans Edwards) have not inspired their supporters to such a degree.
Oops. Lest I forget - Ron Paul has the real ... er... following.
February 23, 2008 12:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
One other comment ---
>>> Last week, Obama's camp said that Clinton was going to "poach" pledged delegates.
I may be wrong, but it was my impression that Harold Ickes, one of Clinton's advisors, was the one who first raised the issue of whether 'pledged' delegates were actually fixed and that Phil Singer, someone else with Clinton's campaign, who then opined that if it got to that both campaigns would be trying to "poach". THEN the "fit" hit the "shan," as they say, and THEN Wolfson (Clinton's campaign) denied that Clinton's people would even consider that and said (rather pompously I thought!!) that it was now up to Obama's campaign to deny that they would engage in such behavior. (They had never suggested they would .. but they dutifully denied it.) You can check - but I'm pretty sure that's how that played out.
February 23, 2008 12:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
This whole (insert enemy)-media line kills me.
Depending on who you ask - the MSM is owned by the Liberals, The Right Wingers, The Clinton Machine, and now Obama.
Not sure which one I should hate the most. Might just be easier to default back to blaming the Jews.
February 23, 2008 12:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Amazing, it's still up on Hillary's site:
http://blog.hillaryclinton.com/blog/main/2008/02/22/143137
In Case You Missed It: “Obama once visited '60s ‘terrorists’.”
You'd think they'd at least take down the offending sentence and the link to that stupid Politico hit piece.
Unbelievable.
February 23, 2008 6:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
"At no point has Obama brought up any of her dirty laundry"
Excuse me? Did you not watch any of the debates, where Sen. Obama says stuff like:
"Hillary, you were a corporate lawyer sitting on the board at Wal-Mart!"
"Hillary, the reason you were lonely is because you didn't listen to anybody!"
"Hillary, you provided much more fulsome praise of Ronald Reagan."
"8 years of the Clintons, major losses for Democrats across the nation"
February 23, 2008 9:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
You are so right, BeyondKen. What a sleaze. I can't believe that he implied that she was on the board at Wal-Mart. Does he have any evidence of that? I doubt it. And what chutzpah to imply that Bill Clinton bears any responsibility for the largest Democratic losses since FDR, just because he was the President and leader of the party at the time. And the worst was when the mudslinging Obama suggested that Hillary had praised Reagan. I don't care if Bill said it about him first. That's just not something that you say about fellow Democrats.
You know, you read about these horrible things that Obama has said, and then you see people getting in a tizzy when all the Clinton campaign has done is push a completely bona fide story about how Obama is in bed with terrorists, and you wonder, are these people nuts?
February 23, 2008 10:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
"When Hillary supporters accuse we Obama supporters of being nasty and negative, we need only to point them to articles like this."
I wonder who those 'Hillary supporters' need only point to?
February 23, 2008 10:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
beyondken, if my sarcasm (which, admittedly, was uncalled for) is the nastiest thing that you've seen on on this site, then you haven't been tuning in lately.
February 23, 2008 11:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Huh? You're comparing these quotes (all of which were responses to her statements) with maliciously putting out smears? Come on, now - even you must know that there is a vast diffference between the two.
February 23, 2008 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Er, there IS a difference between replying to charges and waging a Republican-lite negative campaign. I used to respect Hillary Clinton, before she started campaigning like Karl Rove in drag.
She knows her claims are false, but she makes them anyway, just to tear down her opponent. How is that different from the Republicans? Her ambition has got the best of her. Now that her campaign is going down in flames, she seems to be willing to take the whole Democratic Party down with her, in some last ditch effort to come out ahead.
We're all partisans here, but we're Democrats, too. Can't we agree that some things are just wrong, that winning a nomination isn't everything? Unlike the Republicans, we still have standards, don't we? And if not, how are we any better?
February 23, 2008 10:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry I missed this yesterday. I guess this is the "21st Century Solutions Business"
February 23, 2008 10:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
The old Clinton Rules (i.e., what we all hated about our MSM back when we felt motivated to defend our Clintons):
1. If any part of an alleged scandal turns out to be true, the media behaves as though the entire story is true.
2. Media parse every statement by progressives in response to controversy, looking for something to ridicule -- whether the ridicule is fair or not.
3. Allegations that turn out to be unproven, or even false, are used by the media as evidence in support of future allegations.
The new Clinton Rule (i.e., the game-changing new tack adopted by the HRC campaign):
1. The GOP was gonna do it anyway.
Thanks again, Carol. This latest smear needs to stay front-and-center until someone/anyone from the HRC campaign makes that slanderous line disappear from their campaign website.
Taylor Marsh I can understand (she's already checked out of the Democratic party), but the HRC campaign itself?
It's our friggin' primary. We don't expect to be called terrorists until after our nomination process is complete.
February 23, 2008 11:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, it is very sad, and diaries like yours are what makes it so hard to take Obamabots seriously.
February 23, 2008 1:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Sneer&trade ain't working.
We've crossed the Rubicon.
Deal.
February 23, 2008 2:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, that's substantive. Would you mind elaborating? What here shouldn't be taken seriously? The fact that HRC is deliberating spreading smear and implying something that has absolutely no basis in fact? I'm confused...
February 23, 2008 2:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary is obviously going to a scorched earth finish to this failed campaign. This will ensure the Clinton's legacy in the party is finished and over. I believe that will be a good thing. Hillary and Bill Clinton are bad for the party, and bad for the country. From the beginning people people of integrity like Paul Tsongas have said they had a character problem. And Paul Tsongas was right. They don't have any character. Labelling Sen. Obama as a terrorist is pretty good evidence, especially after trying to marginalize him as a black candidate, and all the other trash that's been thrown and doesn't stick.
February 23, 2008 1:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, end of story on who the media is controlled by,....
The answer IS... US!!!!
All of us... it's because we all watch it and talk about it no matter how despicable and untrue it may be. The more we watch and talk, the more money they make from advertisers. They rarely attack Obama because it never sticks and it dosen't garner ratings.
pretty simple huh? People love Clinton trash, people love republican trash (because they act all high and mighty Moral majority), and people will love Obama trash if they can dig up something that can actually take him off his high horse that the public has put him on.
All this crap is trivial and the media knows it's going to roll off his back and the mass public won't care. Now if they dig up some affair or some real betrayal of the American people then he will fall prey to them like any other candidate.
February 23, 2008 4:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary is ready to lead can beat John McCain, Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. has no Record to run on!
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February 23, 2008 5:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
begone
February 23, 2008 6:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hi all, I have very much enjoyed reading your posts and wanted to throw these two points out for discussion:
1. I think both candidates have grown during this campaign but in different ways. Senator Obama was often accused of not bringing enough substance to his speeches and debates and for anyone who has been following this campaign can clearly see how adept he is at taking constructive criticism, learning from it and only getting better because of it.
He has been sure to bring more substance to the table in terms of addressing key issues and elaborating his plans on how to carry his ideas out.
Senator Clinton has been accused of not connecting with the voters and had a shining (or what appeared to be) moment with her closing comment last Thursday of suddenly being able to connect with voters "Obama stlye".
The problem here though is while Senator Obama's growth seems to be a natural and respectful progression, Senator Clinton's "growth" seems a bit contrived. Add to that today's tantrum and any connection she may have gained has been for naught as we get to see the claws come out up close and personal.
2. Senator Clinton saying last Thursday that no matter what happened in the end we would all be ok, was an endorsement to Senator Obama because she surely wouldn't be able to sleep at night if she thought an incompetent and inexeperienced President was running the country.
My two cents. :)
February 23, 2008 6:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have learned to be very happy to hear these accusations from Hillary! You know why? Every time she does it, she DROPS another point in the polls!
Obama has made the biggest breakthrough of all - his professional attitude is now being compared with Hillary's by millions of people, and many are realizing for the first time Hillary is nothing more than a dishonest frustrated woman who simply wants power and does not care in the slightest on how she gets it.
The result: the first national-polling organization polls that show Obama LEADING in both Texas and Ohio came out today!
February 23, 2008 11:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
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