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Hardly Worth the Effort
Why recommend posts? So they can be shared. But they still go away too fast. I don't feel much incentive to say something requiring much thought or research.
We went from recommended blogs staying up permanently, blocking progress, to having them drop away after 24 hrs., which I feel is way too short. Drive-by commenting achieves little. Why be just another blog?
Jim Sleeper had this to say: "Probably the greatest downside of posting, even on a blogsite like TPM, is that we lose the sense of an ongoing conversation that might actually build on its insights."
I can often remember the title of a post I liked, or at least an approximation of it, but am less likely to remember a random username like turtle1234. So search is out. One is reduced to wading through the archives.
Sleeper also said: "One can't expect anyone who comments on a current post to have checked the earlier ones, right here in TPM, on the same subject, in the past couple of weeks. But that's what makes blog comments a big cut below actual deliberation or even just conversation."
It used to be easy to know where a conversation stood. A small fix might be to have a list of users. A name would look familiar, and one could go to that user's blog. Another incentive would be the chance to end up on the front page of the Cafe. That would hold position, only being pushed down by new guest contributor posts.
I've found some perceptive and stylish writing by readers here, in the old days, and several now. But the good writers are not being rewarded.











Comments (26)
Your frustrations are understandable, but even Josh's, Atrios's, and Kos's posts drop away after a day. It's the reality of a world with a fast news cycle.
February 14, 2008 1:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
At the Cafe, guest contributors' posts stay up, just moving down-page. Josh's main page posts do the same. And why enhance the bad part of the modern news cycle?
How about keeping a "Recommended" page, not just a limited list? After a week they could go into an archive.
February 14, 2008 1:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's an algorithm that might work:
Start off each new post with 12 points. Each recommendation adds 5 points and each comment adds 1. Every hour, you subtract 10% (maybe less during non-peak hours). By default, they're sorted by score, but you can also choose to sort them by freshness. If the score drops below 10 points, they're removed from the list, although you can still view them from the user's profile page, of course (and thus, they could go back up over the 10 point boundary and back on to the list).
All numbers and percentages are arbitrary, but you get the idea.
February 14, 2008 1:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
On second thought, those numbers definitely need tweaking. Start off with 120 points, add 5 for each recommendation and 1 for each post. Subtract 10% every hour, and make 100 points the cutoff.
So, if no one recommends you or posts anything, you last 2 hours. If you get 10 recommendations and 20 posts in the first hour, and then nothing, you last 7 hours. If you get 2 recommendations and 4 posts every hour, you'll last forever. (2 recommendations and 3 1/3 posts would be the steady state solution.)
February 14, 2008 2:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nice to see someone offer a solution. It is a good idea.
February 14, 2008 2:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
There is an element of Darwinism in the current system which should remain, but indeed there is room for algorithmic finessing.
February 14, 2008 4:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
So by recommending each others' posts we become sort of our very own Team Viagra.
Tell you what I think: TPMCafe ad dollars should be distributed to those whose articles get the most unique views, not the most comments. That's like box office success.
And those who get the most comments ought to be up there longer, because that's intellectual capital.
Both should stay up longer. Forever could cause a medical problem.
February 15, 2008 1:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Like the YouTube revenue-sharing?
February 15, 2008 8:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
But there's one Josh; there are dozens/scores of people writing here.
February 14, 2008 1:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd like the ability to add users to a watchlist, so that I could view just a subset of user blogs—those by people who reliably make interesting points (or make them often enough to bear watching). That doesn't mean I wouldn't also look at recent reader posts in order to find new users worth watching, just that there's a subset of users whose posts I'd like to not miss.
Also, I'm wondering why all of my "latest comments" are from February of 2007.
February 14, 2008 1:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
There's not even a working search function! But your idea makes sense, though it was never part of the Cafe before.
Huge problem not being able to *find* people!
February 14, 2008 1:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
I share many of your frustrations, Tom. I'd push for three reforms in particular:
1) I love your idea that exceptional reader posts might be promoted to the main TPM Cafe page. The Tuesday/Thursday wraps are a nod in that direction, but they come far enough apart that their content is generally stale, and they only provide links, not the posts themselves.
2) I agree that we've swung from too far in one direction to too far in the other. My solution would be to list the most popular posts by the number of recommendations made in the past 24 hours. That way, content that takes a while to get discovered still has a fighting chance, and content that continues to be relevant stays where readers can find it. I noticed this week that a post of mine on the obscure topic of Unpledged Add-On Delegates gradually gained steam. It had only a handful of recommendations in its first 24 hours, but more than fifty readers recommended it in the last day before it was dumped from the list. Conversely, a couple posts of mine that were very popular right when they were posted quickly became dated and stale, but hung around forever on the list because a great many people viewed them right when they went up. The present system would never have found a readership for the former post; the old system overvalued the latter posts. We need a nice middle ground.
3) I love the little check-boxes right at the bottom of the blogging page, that allow us to link our posts to TPM Election Central and TPM Muckraker. But why not add a half-dozen more? I'm imagining check-boxes labeled things like "Arts & Culture," "Middle East," "Economics," and "Environment." Then, add these topic headings to the TPM Cafe main page. Readers could click the topic headings to see all the posts recently contributed in that area. It would help bloggers respond directly to each other, not just in the comments section. It would also allow users interested in specific areas of the site to filter out other content, and to develop a more cohesive sense of community among their like-minded peers.
My $0.02
February 14, 2008 2:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm also frustrated by my inability to follow a conversation in reader posts or blogs. One that I particularly wanted to follow only lasted a few hours on the list of posts. I was able to find it again when I hit the show all button, but the next day I was unable to again locate it.
It is hard to understand what the intent is behind these changes. The changes do appear to add more space for advertising, and it appears that more "name" posters are now being published, but the organization is so slapdash that I can't be sure. I think this is going to be just a run of the mill political blog, where each of us gets one shot at commenting on posts, and where we get maybe 2 days to read and re-read posts. It's sad.
February 14, 2008 2:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hoppy, go here:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/02/now-you-see-it.php#comment-2601161
Josh explains at some length. Not all that persuasive, but read it.
February 14, 2008 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Perhaps a "Dump This Post" option may be provided so that we are able to vote to get rid of the posts we think are pointless. Such as the poster promoting her or his blog post related to new polls which had already been posted at Election Central and those of provocateurs.
I hope also that each member may only recommend or vote to dump a post once, particularly the poster him or herself.
February 14, 2008 4:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
How bout a frickin preview button?
Cause at least half the blogs posted look like shit and are basically unreadable.
February 14, 2008 4:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey!
I resemble that remark, fella!
Alphonse (Al) Kada
The Iranians are fighting the Americans in Baghdad so they won't have to fight them on the streets of Tehran
February 14, 2008 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
How about some kind of comment column which shows the beginning of recent comments so we know which posts are being currently discussed? That way, it doesn't matter how old a reader blog post is. If it is still being discussed it will be front and center in the comment column.
If that is not possible, then how about listing under the title for each reader blog post, the number of recommendations and comments. Some of the recommended posts have been recommended by only 2 or 3 people, and if there are 30 comments, we have a vague idea that there is a potentially interesting discussion happening.
February 14, 2008 4:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Too funny!
Three weeks ago -- when the old site was still up -- we were the happy users of a script called a "tracker" which provided us with every one of your very sensible recommendations.
Ah, well!
February 14, 2008 9:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Until things get more sophisticated in this new set up, I am going to "recommend" things only because I want to personally keep track of something happening within; (and thus using artappraiser's tip of taking advantage of the only part of our accounts that tag links).
On the old site, I only recommended a post when I thought the post itself was particularly groovy.
Software is all about working around the boulders of an applications limitations....
February 14, 2008 7:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's an observation: If it's true that the new design was for ads, we just lost some Internet turf to the Ann Coulter ads at the top of the page. ;-)
February 14, 2008 9:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, it's the Internet. Everything goes down the Black Hole almost immediately. Nature of the beast.
February 15, 2008 10:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
You're right about the search function as it stands now. Curiously, it worked fine a few days ago for searching on words in a recent post's title, but now seems to return only posts from the archives, and not current posts. I'm baffled at how we seemingly could be going backwards in terms of functionality, but then, I understand programming only minimally. And you're right, the search function, even when it was working better a few days ago, didn't allow a search on poster's names, so was of limited usefulness anyway.
Andrew: If you're reading this, please note that your bug post (in House Brew) has a bug itself. It shows, before opening, that there are 58 replies, but when opened reveals that there are 82 replies (last I checked). I'm concerned that you may have missed a whole bunch of issues, thinking that there were no further replies to your post.
Note that there are log in problems again and changing my password still does not work. I also notice (with some bemusement) that some of the suggestions the newer people have made in this thread are to add back the functions we had in the old TPM Cafe, such as the much beloved tracker.
Ben Hocking's ideas about an algorithm for recommended posts sound good.
I understand the need to revise the site so that it gets more hits and thereby more revenue (I want TPM to succeed after all, and realize that's the way to do it), but I wonder if there could be a way to retain the things that longtime users so appreciated about the old Cafe at the same time. Perhaps a "Back Room," where there could be more in-depth conversations? I'm not certain exactly how that might work and I certainly don't have any idea how that could be accomplished software-wise. It may be there's some other way of accomplishing essentially the same thing. But I don't see any reason, necessarily, why there needs to be an "either/or" approach, which seems to be what we have now, either by intent or by default. It may be that fixing the "recommended" posts issue ultimately might accomplish the same thing, by allowing good posts more exposure, and hence more opportunities for discussion.
Andrew: Could you please post a new update post regarding the progress on the bug fixes, and what we might expect in the next days or weeks?
February 15, 2008 11:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Try emailing Andrew, perhaps?
(Trying for an email link here.)
February 15, 2008 11:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Looking for a place without bugs? Backbenchers you know?
Click my name. Top blog post. Last comment. Info is there if you're interested in joining us "former refugess," now redoing a nice quiet "Saloon."
February 15, 2008 11:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wrong code, I guess. Manual method:
andrew@talkingpointsmemo.com
February 15, 2008 12:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
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