You're probably right that the assertion that some of the Founders were Deists is based on semantics. My sense is that pure Deism includes the points you mentioned (aversion to Trinitarianism and Biblical literalism) PLUS a belief in the "clockmaker God" (i.e. One who created the mechanisms and then let it run.) And I wanted to make it clear that even the Founders who disagreed with the Trinity and Biblical literalism really did believe in an active and intervening God.

As to whether these Founders were Christian, you're right again -- it depends whose definition you're using. Ironically, by the standards used by many of today's conservative Christians, many of the Founders were not Christian but by the standards of today's liberal Christians, they were.

It's worth perusing the online Jefferson Bible we just put up at Beliefnet (www.beliefnet.com/foundingfaith). We have it so you can click on little scissors icons and see what Jefferson cut. Then ask yourself: does this prove Jefferson was a great Christian because he was so conscientiously creating a Bible he could treasure and which highlighted Jesus's great teachings? Or does it prove he was not at all a Christian because he's rejecting so much basic Christian doctrine?

Posted at March 13, 2008 4:26 PM in response to What Did the Founders Believe About Church and State?

Is it possible Franklin was just cynically using prayer to move the Constitution forward? Yes, it's possible. And it's possible that Washington, Jefferson, and Adams were also being cynical when they used religious rhetoric. I believe the simpler explanation is that they actually believed it.

Posted at March 13, 2008 3:29 PM in response to What Did the Founders Believe About Church and State?

Fair point. The states did chip away at the establishments before the civil war, and the last formal establishment fell in 1833 (Massachusetts). However, the establishment clause itself wasnt applied against the states until later, so that many states allowed for state-written or state-led prayers in school, right up until 1962.

Posted at March 13, 2008 3:26 PM in response to What Did the Founders Believe About Church and State?

This is indeed a very important point, and a central argument of my book. We have separation (and religious freedom) because of an alliance between the Enlightenment intellectuals like Jefferson and Madison and the 18th century evangelicals, especially the Baptists.

Posted at March 13, 2008 2:49 PM in response to What Did the Founders Believe About Church and State?

Interestingly, the Baptists -- though conservative supporters of Bush -- actually opposed this idea at first. They recommended to their own churches that they not accept the money, but they didn't fight against the policy itself.

Posted at March 13, 2008 2:47 PM in response to What Did the Founders Believe About Church and State?

Thank you very much! It's quite difficult, I'm finding, to summarize the thesis (theses) of a book but I certainly find the long form interview easier than the 30 second summary. Thanks for your interest.

Posted at March 13, 2008 9:55 AM in response to Fallacy #2 The Founders Weren't Conservative Christians

This is a really important point. It's often assumed that the Baptists of the 18th century supported separation of church and state merely to avoid persecution. That's partly true. But they also had a Biblical rationale, which you have stated eloquently.

Posted at March 13, 2008 9:52 AM in response to Fallacy #2 The Founders Weren't Conservative Christians

I agree that too is a crucial myth. (That's one of the other 'myths' dealt with in the book).

One thing I respectfully disagree about is that the Constitution is clear on this. In fact, one thing that frustrated me was why Madison, who was a strict separationist, allowed such ambiguity in the First Amendment that we're still debating it. The answer is that he didn't want to -- but he lost. This was a political process, and he needed to gether up votes, just like any other modern politician. His compromise was to have separation at the federal level but allow states to mingle church and state as much as they wanted. This has changed over time, thanks to the 14th amendment and other developments, but the Founders themselves gave us a somewhat muddy legacy.

Posted at March 13, 2008 9:47 AM in response to Fallacy #2 The Founders Weren't Conservative Christians

Oooh. Good catch. I think probably the best term is "orthodox" or "practicing." I shouldnt have used the word "conservative" there because the word has such different words now than it did then. I was trying to refer more to the seriousness with which they practiced their religion more than anything else.

By the way, my apologies to those on this thread who were expecting me Tuesday and Wednesday to dive into the comment threat. I was under the mistaken impression that I wasnt supposed to go into the comment area. Entirely my fault. In any event, I'm trying to rectify that with active particpation in the third thread (and subsequent ones) and will post some more down below on this thread, too.

Posted at March 13, 2008 9:40 AM in response to Fallacy #2 The Founders Weren't Conservative Christians

I have a problem with the idea that we were Founded on "Judeo-Christian principles." For one thing, Catholics and Jews were explicitly excluded from the grand pact early on. Our early religious heritage was Protestant.

Secondly, saying that most of the Founders were religoius Christians (true) obscures the fact that they came to a different conclusion than their parents (also religious Christians) about what the proper relationship between church and state should be.

The one way I think there was a genuine "biblical" influence on the Constitution is this: up until that moment, religious freedom was about "toleration" of minorities and "dissenters." Madison, Jefferson and others shifted the vocabulary to talk about his as a natural, God-given right. I think ultimately the concept of God-given rights stems from the Biblical notion that we are created in God's image. Though that last point is debateable, what's not is that by casting this as an inherent right, instead of one granted by kings or legislatures, it made religious freedom sacrosanct.

Posted at March 13, 2008 9:34 AM in response to Fallacy #1: The Founders Weren't Deists