I'm very sorry that has been your experience of religion. I am sure you won't be surprised to know that many other folks tend to see it not so stark terms, and that religion can often be a surprisingly strong force for positive social change. Every great social movement in America's history, including those most prominent today, was/are populated by people driven to action by their religious faith, not inspite of it.

Far from being "outreach" to the progressives to the religious communities, it's really been the case that progressive religion has been a part of our social history all along.

Posted at March 21, 2008 3:29 PM in response to Progressive People Should Support Progressive Religion (A Pastor's Perspective)

In truth, I really should have titled this "What Might He Have Intended?"

Because, like you, I have no idea what was really going through his mind. I was merely pointing out that, from strictly textual point of view, there's a place for the view that the Bible sometimes calls down come very hard curses on people, nations, etc...

However, I find myself straddling the fence on this...because while I can argue that the Bible text might give him that leeway...I think the current environment we preacher must be aware that many outside our particular "church family" may be listening in. Especially if we're going to put stuff out where it can be put on YouTube, etc, I might argue we have a different moral test to now consider...the merits of whether our provocative statements might be irresponsible.

It's possible to be prophet without them.

Posted at March 21, 2008 12:55 AM in response to What Did Jeremiah Wright Intend by "Damning" America? (A Preacher's Perspective)

Hi Bev:

Hi Bev:

Well, it sounds like you and I could get into a really long and boring debate about Biblical Greek.

The word in question is "OUAI" in the Greek (I'm not going to speak to the Hebrew examples you cite...)

Scholars are clearly *not* unanimous about the appropriate translations of the word.

There's a pretty good discussion thread I found among some scholars on a message board, for those really wanting to delve into it.

Just click here, and you'll find some interesting discusison.

http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/test-archives/html4/1998-09/27459.html

Here's two of the responses:

"If anything, I suspect that "Damn you" is rather weak for OUAI hUMIN,
although of course the force of this phrase in English depends considerably
on the circumstances in which it is uttered and the assumptions that the
speaker and hearer of it have about the phrase's meaning."

"Nevertheless, what seems right about this suggestion is its propriety if
one views the beatitudes and their antithesis (more clearly balanced in
Luke's "Sermon on the Plain") as following in the older tradition of
"blessings and curses" for obedience and disobedience to the covenant, as
those appear, for instance, near the end of Deuteronomy and as the
Mendenhall hypothesis assumes was an essential part of a suzerainty treaty
upon the precedent of which the Sinai covenant is thought to be formulated."

"Wouldn't the listeners to John the Baptist's "Brood of Vipers" speech have
felt the same way about that? If this is not a curse in the proper sense of
a prayer for someone's damnation, it is at the least a powerful admonition
that rejection of this opportunity for salvation must be damnation."

And another:

"I think one of the reasons we're having so much trouble finding a modern
idiom is that this is not a modern sentiment being expressed. I've gone to
churches all my life and never heard a preacher say "Woe to you" and have
it directed at individuals in the congregation. The pronouncement of curses
is generally frowned upon. ;-) "You better watch out" is as close as I've
heard and that's seems way short of OUAI hUMIN."

"The Bible in Basic English translates it "A curse is on you", which to my
mind is a more modern idiom and since it's indicative, avoids the causitive
nature of "Damn You". "Grief and despair are yours" might work, it gives
the core meaning of OUAI."

As I mentioned, Bible translation is not an exact science, and you can make an good counter argument that "damn" is too strong, or that "woe" is better. But I don't think it can simply be dismissed as a nice try.

Posted at March 20, 2008 7:28 PM in response to What Did Jeremiah Wright Intend by "Damning" America? (A Preacher's Perspective)

Great post on the use of "antithesis." You are absolutely correct that it is fundamental to black preaching.

And I think you are also correct in how the congregation would have "heard" it.

The challenge for preachers now is that they (your own congregation) may not be the only ones listening. Hopefully, that knowledge will not stifle the prophetic voice, but perhaps it might cause the prophetic voice to use all due diligence in making sure they are not misquoted.

It's clear in Bible stories that there are several times when questioners are trying to trick Jesus. And usually in those cases, he dodges and weaves, rather than give them ammo for a first-century YouTube attack.

Posted at March 20, 2008 10:55 AM in response to What Did Jeremiah Wright Intend by "Damning" America? (A Preacher's Perspective)

YouTube presents challenges for all but the most simplistic public speakers.

Posted at March 20, 2008 10:50 AM in response to What Did Jeremiah Wright Intend by "Damning" America? (A Preacher's Perspective)

Hi Ed:

Thanks for this. As I posted in a blog yesterday, it's quite plausible that there were many reason Obama would stay at his church:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/03/why-did-barack-obama-stay-at-t.php

I based some of this on my own experience as a pastor. You've filled in more of the gaps by providing some of the context of the actual situation at Trinity. I had the chance to visit there once it the 90s...and although it was clearly centered in the black tradition, there was nothing that I found particularly surprising that morning.

Thanks again.

Posted at March 18, 2008 10:20 PM in response to Obama and His Church

I confess that I have no idea how it works in a UCC congregation. In my tradition, United Methodist, our appointment is for a year at a time. Each June, it's entirely possible that we could be moved by the Bishop. However, the process usually involves a lot of give, take, and discussion on the part of the church, pastor, and Bishop.

If things are going well, lots of times, it's assumed there won't be any change. If they're not...

Posted at March 18, 2008 6:33 PM in response to Why Did Barack Obama Stay at Trinity Church? (Thoughts on Church Membership)

Hi Kensi:

Your comments about "why didn't he just leave" gets at some of the counter-points in my blog...namely that people choose churches for a variety of complex reasons....and often only some of it has to do with the pastor. Some churches are very pastor-centric, others are not. Some folks *despise* their pastors and talk about them behind their backs...but still stay!

It may look like a confusing decision, or even a poor one, from the outside. And it may look very different from the inside.

Posted at March 18, 2008 5:10 PM in response to Why Did Barack Obama Stay at Trinity Church? (Thoughts on Church Membership)

Ovcatto:
You make some marvelous points. And all I can say is: go back and read my whole post...I think you'll find that your major point is basically my major point too.

Posted at March 18, 2008 8:40 AM in response to Why Did Barack Obama Stay at Trinity Church? (Thoughts on Church Membership)

Ovcatto:

I *do* assume that if a church/minister puts sermons on the internet as mp3s (as I do) or as video (as Trinity Church does) that changes the obligation of the preacher. I personally believe at that point the preacher can no longer assume he/she is having a private conversation among church family members, but should assume anyone might be listening.

That is my assumption and bias. It's very likely, based on the clear evidence, that Rev. Wright doesn't see it that way.

Posted at March 18, 2008 1:08 AM in response to Why Did Barack Obama Stay at Trinity Church? (Thoughts on Church Membership)