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From Beit Shemesh, a Cry to American Jews

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I won't even try to improve on the exemplary posts here by MJ Rosenberg and Jo-Ann Mort on the Flotilla mess and the Gaza blockade, but since I'm in Israel right now (for another few days), I do want to recount two experiences and mention a recent "incident" that underscores how urgent it is that U.S. policy and American-Jewish opinion shift substantially.

Yesterday I went to a wedding at Beit Shemesh, an ancient village on a promontory an hour and a half southwest of Tel Aviv. In pre-biblical times it oversaw a trade route, and then it became a Hebrew outpost near Philistine territory and, later, a border town between the kingdoms of Judah and Israel.

I went there with a first cousin of the bride's father; their families were from Istanbul and Gallipoli, where their ancestors had lived for 500 years after the Spanish Inquisition drove them to the Ottoman Empire. These Turkish Jews had grown up hearing their elders speak Ladino, a Sephardic Jewish equivalent of Yiddish that is mostly Spanish rather than mostly German - an unbroken but now-disappearing thread back to pre-Inquisition Spain.

The groom grew up among refugees from interwar Europe, but in Buenos Aires, ironically, for a reason that soon overtook us all: As his mother offered her blessings to the newlyweds in a lovely, soft Argentine Spanish, the Turkish Jews at the wedding were surprised and moved to hear remnants and echoes of their old Istanbul Ladino, alongside the more-ancient Hebrew that had traveled liturgically with all the families around the globe and now bound them to the site of the wedding.

On our way down to Beit Shemesh, our driver, a friendly, politically passionate fellow of about 40 with a shaved head, had given us the characteristic Israeli line on "the situation." It's the line that shapes most news reportage in the country and, with it, most Israelis' attitudes and analysis. To paraphrase and summarize:

"The world is against us no matter what we do. They wanted us out of Europe. Now that they got us out, they want us out of here, too. They hated us when we ran Gaza, they hated us when we got out and left greenhouses and schools, which Hamas made a big show of destroying; and now they hate us because we can't let Gaza be run by a heavily armed Hamas, which most Palestinians themselves fear and hate and which is tied to powers that are sworn to destroy us.

"You see, no one in this region respects or responds to anything but brute force. We have to live with that day and night, so we understand.

"I used to vote left, and I still don't like Bibi or [Avigdor] Lieberman, and I'd still say, Give back the Golan Heights, give back East Jerusalem. But give it to who? How naïve can we be?

"Does anyone think that any Arab regime, or Amadenijad or Erdogan, who all have more blood on their own hands than we ever did, and who are trying to hide so much brutality now, care a damn about Palestinians? I swear to you, I care more than they ever will."

He drew analogies between the West's baffling, hypocritical indulgence of such monsters and earlier naifs' indulgences of Hitler as he re-armed, amassed power and credibility, and broadcast his murderous intentions. Finally, approaching Beit Shemesh, our driver reminded us that the name "Palestine" is the ancient Roman imperial name for the land of the Philistines, not for Arabs, and that Hebrew was spoken in Palestine more than seven centuries before Arabic was.

It's a seemingly unbreakable and doomed logic, and most Israelis these days are sunk in it. I won't reprise MJ's and Jo-Anne's responses to this kind of thinking, but suffice it to say here that with the right mix of incentives and alternatives as well as constraints, Hamas and Hezbollah might evolve as other seemingly terminally murderous organizations in Ireland and South Africa evolved. Without such a strategy, far-fetched though it may seem, more and increasingly brutal, hopeless conflicts will drag all parties, including the beautiful wedding party in Beit Shemesh, to destruction.

But can Israel itself change in the ways the Ulster Protestants and Afrikaners did? We rode back from the wedding with two Israelis in their 50s who wish that it could but doubt that it will. They are professional men, one a psychologist and consultant to high-tech companies, the other an industrial-relations expert who hosts some of China's commercial delegations to Israel, where they study irrigation, desalinization, and other agricultural innovations.

Both are cosmopolitan men, intellectuals, readers of Haaretz, the left-liberal paper; they are also Israeli army veterans and fathers of sons who are or were recently in the army. They're very deeply pessimistic about the Israeli public, which they fear won't give up thinking like our first driver until the next, really big, disaster teaches them that the softer, defter strategies are actually Israel's only hope.

Such strategies, involving irresistible economic incentives and real political opportunities, might, if sustained over time, loosen things up enough among Palestinians to diminish the grip of Hamas' ridiculous and destructive theocrats. Such strategies might even more quickly diminish the geo-political shell games now being played by Hamas' cynical supporters who have so much to hide (including Turkey, whose record with Armenians and Kurds makes its posturing as a champion of oppressed Gazans as transparently pathetic as it is demagogic.)

Because our hosts on the drive home doubt that Israel's politicians and public will take the necessary first steps, they're desperate for Obama to take those steps by pulling a couple of plugs on Bibi's state-of-siege politics. Apparently, Obama is considering it. But what it amounts to will depend partly how big a shift of opinion is really underway in the American Jewish community.

I arrived back in Tel Aviv aware even more starkly than I had been before of how despairing and isolated some of the best of Israelis feel. If there is an Israeli Obama on the country's horizon, no one I've talked to has spotted him among the midgets and monsters running most of the show.

None of this is news to TPM readers, but my experiences underscore how much is at stake in work like MJ Rosenberg's and Jo-Ann Mort's - and, yes, Peter Beinart's, if he transforms his opportune re-positioning toward a more dedicated strategy to change young American Jews' thinking, and, with it, American policy.

A potentially immense, though loathsome, spur to such a change is last week's blinding of a 21-year-old American Jewish peace activist by a tear-gas canister fired at her by Israeli soldiers on the West Bank.

A look at the blog of the victim, Emily Henochowicz, an art student at The Cooper Union in New York, shows her as innocent as the young man depicted in an emblematic photo of the late 1960s placing a flower into the barrel of the gun of a soldier guarding the Pentagon against an anti-war demonstration.

That demonstrator was not harmed, and Emily's almost childlike rendering of a demonstration she participated in at Walaja not long before she was blinded makes me think that she expected to be treated similarly. Looking at her illustrations and poetic lines, I can't repress a paternal impulse to warn her that she's not ready and shouldn't be there.

Her blinding and the lethal bulldozing of Rachel Corrie comprise a kind of Kent State for young American activists whom Israel has been systematically trying to frighten away from the non-violent, joint Arab-and-Jewish demonstrations that actually offer Israel its only way out.

But the Kent State students were on home turf, trying to change their own country. Our fellow wedding guests in Beit Shemesh believe that young Americans' most important work right now must be done in the American Jewish community itself. They may well be right.


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Thank you, Jim Sleeper, for this far-flung yet home-hitting report.

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I echo that sentiment. An incisive comment that takes in the most salient points, bar two.

The world is ill-disposed to Israel, not because it is Jewish, but because it is arrogant. It's prime minister is arrogant, its defense and foreign ministers are arrogant, the government official spokesperson on TV is arrogant, its ambassador to London is arrogant, its army is arrogant and so on ad infinitum.

Arrogance makes immediate enemies and in this, Israel is highly successful. But hubris brings with it its own antidote. And violence eventually always brings violent retribution upon the perpetrators. That is what history teaches us.

Unless and until the state of Israel recognizes the essential humanity of all peoples, Jewish and non-Jewish, Muslim and non-Muslim - she is doomed to remain a rogue state supported by a powerful American minority, but not by the American people.

That distinction will become ever more apparent and important as the months go by - but only to those who have a modicum of humility.

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I concur absolutely, but I would add the following. Not only are the Israelis one hears most prominently arrogant, but they are also very, very close-minded. It is as if the strain of maintaining Israel's supposed moral superiority requires such mental gymnastics that they cannot allow opposing views to be heard, much less listen to them, lest the facade they have built crack wide open.

The same is true not only of their American Jewish supporters, but also the sycophantic non-Jewish supporters like Joe Biden, who long ago traded their critical faculties for campaign cash.

I keep harping on this, but looking around California, which in the last 8 years LOST 500,000 whites while gaining overall 4 million in population (making whites now just under 41%), it is hard not to see how the demographics in this country are also trending away from Israel's positions. Americans are already strained economically and cannot be expected to support indefinitely an Israel which shows no interest in cooperation and reaching a reasonable solution to this issue. If Israel does something really stupid, like attack Iran, they may be amazed to find just how shallow the support of most Americans is.

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"The world is ill-disposed to Israel, not because it is Jewish, but because it is arrogant. It's prime minister is arrogant, its defense and foreign ministers are arrogant, the government official spokesperson on TV is arrogant, its ambassador to London is arrogant, its army is arrogant and so on ad infinitum."

so what you are saying is that no other reason or set of reasons has anything to do with this...it's the fault of "arrogance"...

after all...the Catholics have no animus towards the Jews...it's only because the Isralies are "arrogant"...and the same goes for the Greek and Russian Orthodox...who according to you do not teach as a matter of faith the dogma that Jews are sinners for rejecting and "murdering" Christ...

and the untold millions of bigots in the world are not a factor in this equation because it is all the result of Isralie "arrogance"...

in fact following your "logic" I guess we may safely assume that the junior fascist partners in Berlusconi's government love the Jews in general but only are angry with them because of their arrogance...as to why they hate the Ethiopians we can only guess...

I'm so glad you posted and cleared this up for everyone...

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I echo that sentiment. An incisive comment that takes in the most salient points, bar two.

The world is ill-disposed to Israel, not because it is Jewish, but because it is arrogant. It's prime minister is arrogant, its defense and foreign ministers are arrogant, the government official spokesperson on TV is arrogant, its ambassador to London is arrogant, its army is arrogant and so on ad infinitum.

Arrogance makes immediate enemies and in this, Israel is highly successful. But hubris brings with it its own antidote. And violence eventually always brings violent retribution upon the perpetrators. That is what history teaches us.

Unless and until the state of Israel recognizes the essential humanity of all peoples, Jewish and non-Jewish, Muslim and non-Muslim - she is doomed to remain a rogue state supported by a powerful American minority, but not by the American people.

That distinction will become ever more apparent and important as the months go by - but only to those who have a modicum of humility.

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Well said!

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It is a common refrain among bigots to say of the target of their racist invective that they are arrogant...for example saying that Obama is "thin-skinned" is a classic white put-down in America of minorities...or one easily transferred to an episode out of E.M. Forester and set in the days of the Raj...

I have no idea if you are a bigot but there is no denying the fact that your statement is to say the least odd as it avoids the 800 pound gorilla in the room...

namely that the Chinese are viewed by all of their neighbors as arrogant and have been viewed that way for thousands of years...the Vietnamese have contempt for the Chinese and the Koreans have contempt for everyone who is not Korean (yes yes a generalization but that makes my point not yours)the British are viewed as arrogant...the French...the Americans...the Japanese...

the Mexicans think the Spanish are arrogant and the Brazilians think the Argentinians are arrogant...

the Belgians detest French arrogance (unless they are Catholic and from the south and hate the "other" "Belgians" more)...

people in upstate New York think people from Manhattan are arrogant...people in Boston think so too and people in San Francisco think people in LA think they think they walk on water (which they will tell you has been arrogantly diverted from the north...the water that is not the people)...the list is endless...

thus exactly how the arrogance of the Isralies (real or mythic arrogance) warrants the responses posted here and elsewhere suggests either ignorance or...bigotry...or both...

I'll go with both as they usually go together like crosses and fire...or rope and a tree...

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"Unless and until the state of Israel recognizes the essential humanity of all peoples, Jewish and non-Jewish, Muslim and non-Muslim - she is doomed to remain a rogue state supported by a powerful American minority, but not by the American people."

vs say the Saudis who treat "their" Palestinians like shit...and who see the common humanity in all people...yes indeed...I can see Americans going on indefinitely supporting the peace and love pouring out of Saudi Arabia...

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We are an empire: fine, but we cannot kick this can down the road without incurring serious damage to our standing in this global web we are in, and neither can Israel for that matter. All the arrogant posturing and hubris would be comical if it were not so frought with our oblivious reading of the unfolding consequences this implies for us. ben 10 izle - uzun kuyruk izle

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sünger bob izle I keep harping on this, but looking around California, which in the last 8 years LOST 500,000 whites while gaining overall 4 million in population (making whites now just under 41%), it is hard not to dora izle see how the demographics in this country are also dora izle trending away from Israel's positions. Americans are already strained kaşif dora izle economically and cannot be dora izle expected to support indefinitely an Israel which shows no türkçe sünger bob izle interest çizgi film izle in cooperation and reaching a reasonable sünger bob izle seyret solution to this issue. If Israel does something sünger bob izle really stupid, like attack Iran, they may be amazed to find just how shallow the support of most Americans is.

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This is just fantastic writing, really evocative and sensitive and it truly advances the conversation way beyond all of the arguments that we've been having all week that are based on historical details and documented slights and atrocities. How do we have our conversation on this level and not the other.

Now I see what Josh was getting at last night on Jo-Ann's thread.

Thanks Professor Sleeper, travel safe.

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I share the respect for good writing, but: Can Obama pull a couple of plugs on Bibi's state-of-siege politics, as requested?

The US has its own siege politics, with the new security strategy's heavy emphasis on terrorism and war, with Obama in a deeper oil spill crisis and with the self-described Zionist US vice president talking about Israel's absolute rights to board ships and kill people: "I think Israel has an absolute right to deal with its security interest."

With mid-term elections coming up the AIPAC website is carrying statements of support from senators (8, including 5 Dems) and representatives (47, including 25 Dems). No doubt they are lining up others; that's what they do.

The compliers include Rep. Barney Frank who was initially "ashamed to be a Jew" but then saw the light and wrote: "Let’s put the blame where it belongs. True humanitarians would not have responded with violence, and no one should ever confuse relief workers with violent instigators."

A lot is riding on the Irish ship which is on its way to Gaza, and on UN/NATO action. But I don't look for Professor Obama to do much. It's not his style and there are too many obstacles.

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So you noted the Biblical history of Ein Shemesh, but forgot, or more correctly, repressed, the fact that there was a continuous human habitation there until 1948, when Ein Schams was depopulated.

But the repressed, as you know, return as a symptom. The driver's speech is the speech of the hysteric, who cannot understand itself, is totally baffled by the reality of the symptom, the total paralysis, because the signifier that organizes the whole experience cannot be mentioned in polite society.

let's conjure it, therapeutically: Ein Schams. Ein Schams. Ein Schams. Ein Schams.

US Jews could help, only if they agreed to work through their own identifications, and to help Israeli Jews face up to what they repress and opress. But that doesn't unforatunately chimes with your politics, which is the very opposite, to help Israelis sustain their repressions, by sharing them.

Of course, it must always be mentioned that Hamas has "ridiculous theocrats," but when Barak said that he insisted in Camp David II that Israel must keep control of "the wholiest of the holy" (the inner sanctum of the temple), or when Sleeper sees the bible when he looks at the landscape but doesn't see recent history, while attending a religious wedding in a state that doesn't allow any other kind, or when the secular Kibbuts "redeems the land" and "revives the sparkle" and "realizes" "Yehezkel's vision of the dry bones" nobody should mention theorcracy, because secular Jews, unlike Hamas, are not theocratic even when theocracy dribbles from every one of their words.

So little time, so much to repress! You must be exhausted.


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You should give Sleeper a break on this one. This is a pretty good description of the difficulties in solving the IP issue in ways that will bring justice to the Palestinians. Though he writes through his own personal lens with its obvious biases he is honest enough to be informative at the same time. Also the personal touch gives the essay real feeling.

Commenting on the message, however, it is a dark one indeed. It sounds like a near impossibility to fix internal Israeli politics so they could engage in good faith negotiations with the Palestinian people. The only prescription offered is to change the views of American Jews thereby changing their lobbying patterns so the US could force a solution upon Israel. That right there sounds like a multi decade long process, even if it could be successful. I think it is more likely that the American people will finally realize that this is a problem that we can't solve and it would be better for us to pursue our own national self interests and withdraw from the whole mess.

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Looking for the oppressor to lead progressive social change is a waste of time. Yet that is the basic asssumption of most of the discussions in the US. Expecting Jews to fix Israel is like expecting BP to fix the environment. In the second case it is a patholgical commitent to capitalism, and in the first case it is a pathological commitment to racism. ( of course the word 'apthological' in both sentences is redundant.)

Yes, the article is well written, dark, sad, and of course things are bad. But it is also an example of looking for (the lack of) solutions in the wrong place.


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Then...ah...Jews should do nothing because they can do nothing?

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Where did I say that?

Jews can do a lot of things, that don^t assume that the key to future depends on Jews. They can listen to Palestinians for example. It`s doable.

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I'm glad you're here to point those things out, but I thought the article was mostly good for all that. Sleeper usually writes interesting pieces,even if flawed.

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And I look at the flaws.

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ED writes: "US Jews could help, only if they agreed to work through their own identifications, and to help Israeli Jews face up to what they repress and opress."

What do you suggest? How would that work?

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As I keep suggesting, start listening to Palestinians.

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ED: "But the repressed, as you know, return as a symptom." Lots of things keep returning as "symptoms." And the "continuous habitation" itself is itself a suppression of what went before. Are we to expect a continuous return of what was before? Until...

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Thank you so much for this very beautiful article. The images you invoked from the wedding to the flower in the rifle along with the thought provoking conversations to and from the wedding that you shared with us were very moving.

Who on either side of the issue could not feel a deep sadness after reading of Emily's blindness and the feelings of isolation that so many there now feel.

Have a safe trip and thanks again.

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"(including Turkey, whose record with Armenians and Kurds makes its posturing as a champion of oppressed Gazans as transparently pathetic as it is demagogic.)"

Including the United States, whose record with African Americans, women and Native Americans makes its posturing as a champion of the oppressed anywhere as pathetic as it is demagogic.

and so it goes....

Move beyond it, Jim. Unlike Jordan and Egypt,Turkey was Israel's ONLY real "friend" in the ME and under different Israeli leadership, can be again. Enough already.

Peter Beinhart was giving voice to those you note here:

"I arrived back in Tel Aviv aware even more starkly than I had been before of how despairing and isolated some of the best of Israelis feel."


In an opportune bit of serendipitous timing, Anshel Pfeffer calls the collective "you" out:

In its hour of need, Israel was let down by Diaspora
If only we had some real friends, friends we could trust implicitly, who could point out the error of our ways. This could be the shining moment of the Jewish Diaspora. They love us, but they also see things from another perspective. We need a strong, unified voice from the Jewish leadership in the United States and Europe telling Israelis enough is enough, you are hurtling down the slippery slope of pariahdom and causing untold damage to yourselves and us. Lift your heads above the ramparts and see that the world has moved on.
Instead, we find the establishment of the Jewish world crouching with us in the bunker.
In his breathtaking analysis of the decline of secular Zionism in America, "The Failure of the American Jewish Establishment," which appeared in the New York Review of Books last month, Peter Beinart describes how the leaders of America's major Jewish organizations have succeeded in estranging an entire generation of young Jews from Israel "by defending virtually anything any Israeli government does." In doing so "they make themselves intellectual bodyguards for Israeli leaders who threaten the very liberal values they profess to admire."
Beinart persuasively explains how this has convinced many young Jews that they have noting in common with a country whose policies contradict so much of what they have been brought up to believe in. But there is another damaging aspect to this cheerleading. Every Israeli cabinet minister who is greeted by cheering audiences during visits abroad fails to see all those who, disgusted, prefer to stay at home.
They return to Israel convinced that at least the Jewish people are still behind us and that our opponents are simply anti-Semitic. Other voices, such as the new lobbies JStreet and JCall, are ostracized by the establishment instead of being treated as what they really are, authentic voices for many concerned Jews.
When the history of the Jewish people in the early 21st century is written, the conclusion will be unavoidable. In its hour of need Israel was let down by the Diaspora.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/anshel-pfeffer-in-its-hour-of-need-israel-was-let-down-by-diaspora-1.294126

It's not about the kids, Jim; the kids are alright.

It's about ya'll.

Some of the most corrosive policies affecting Israel's relationships are still emanating from DC. Scratch an issue, be it Hamas, the blockade, Gilad Shalit, regional isolation.... and you will find American pressure behind the perpetuation of hardliner positions. In some instances, they are even more extreme than those of the current Israeli government.

It's up to the best of the Disapora to join with the best of the Israelis to push back against the worst of both camps. The latter have been running the show for far too long.

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Nice vision, but the Jewish community isn't "one thing" with "one head" that can decide these things. Abe Foxman, et al, aren't going to do what Anshel suggests because they dont' AGREE with it. Liberal Jews, by and large, don't belong to Jewish organizations.

They would have to start joining the UJA and even AIPAC and trying to change things from the inside. You know, vote out the leadership, etc. But it would have to be a mass movement.

IOW, instead of joining J Street, or in addition to joining J Street, they'd have to join AIPAC and kick up a fuss. Not a bad idea.

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Peter, the organizational structure of AIPAC on the critically important local levels makes it impossible to infiltrate and change from within. The growing indifference to Zionism among young American Jews will eventually erode the effectiveness of these nodes by attrition. AIPAC has increasingly turned recruiting efforts toward Evangelical youth.

As the folks @The Israel Project and the Reut Institute have determined, it's the "opinion elites" that matter in maintaining "support" for Israel based on the fatally flawed and counterproductive narratives that underpin disastrous American foreign policies. The defensive uproar over Beinhart's call to arms is a clear indication of the resistance among much the American Zionist left to moving beyond a comforting and comfortable status quo that enshrines assumptions and eschews reality. By contrast, the reactions to Beinhart's words among their Israeli counterparts constitute affirmation.

Given their impact, boneheaded American policies and how they manifest on the ground in Israel, the WB, Gaza (and beyond) are not subjected to any real scrutiny here.

One heinious example is the continuing captivity of Gilad Shalit. While it may be of little concern to Americans, to Israelis, it's a huge factor influencing their opinions regarding all things related to Gaza and more. If Shalit were to be repatriated, (almost) all of Israel would rejoice, thus providing openings for some reset buttons to be pushed.

So what caused Bibi to reverse course as the latest rounds of negotiations were on the verge of reaching accord?

Two words; American pressure.

As for the calculations behind the US veto of the deal with Hamas to free Shalit, I'll leave the explanations to those who are in positions to know:

The Obama Administration has been "dropping hints to the Israeli decision makers not to accept such a prisoner swap as it might harm Abbas's political position and stability in the Palestinian Authority,"

http://www.shalomlife.com/eng/6153/Father%20Blames%20US%20for%20Blocking%20Shalit%20Deal

....the Americans intervened and asked Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu not to go forward with the deal since this would bolster Hamas and weaken Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3893285,00.html

The first voice belongs to Noam Shalit, father of Gilad.
The second is that of Hamas politburo chief Khaled Mashaal.

The price tag for shoring up the American designated PA puppet show is the continued imprisonment of Shalit and all of the suffering of Israelis & Palestinians that follows this bloody course.

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Thanks for posting this. INteresting.

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Apparently, Obama is considering [taking those "necessary steps"]. But what it amounts to will depend . . . .

"-- I will do such things --
What they are yet I know not, but they shall be
The terrors of the earth!" -- Barack Obama on the heath

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Nicely done, by far the best I've read by Sleeper on the subject. I have had the same conversations in Israel my reaction has been similar.

But where I differ (in emphasis more than substance) is in the casual dismissal of the cabdriver's opinions. I wouldn't say I agree wholeheartedly with his diatribe, but these beliefs do not arise out of thin air. The failure of the Israeli left to answer these questions sufficiently to reassure what I would call the persuadable middle, is a large reason for its descent into irrelevance. The collapse of Oslo into the grotesque violence of the second intifada - the near-daily suicide attacks - along with the ascent of Hamas in Gaza following the unilateral withdrawal have had a profound and devastating impact on Israeli society. That many on the left - including Sleeper here - patronizingly dismiss such concerns as some kind of childish overreaction only increases the disconnect.

Interesting also that Sleeper seems relatively secure in the knowledge - contrary to all indications - that economic incentives might somehow loosen the grip of Hamas. Well, if that's the case, I haven't seen any evidence of it. Hamas' raison d'etre is its opposition to any accommodation with Israel - the collateral consequences to its civilians notwithstanding. Oddly, Sleeper at the same time, wonders whether it is Israelis will have the capacity to change. Well, it wasn't that long ago that Ehud Olmert, once a hard-liner (and obviously a deeply flawed leader), was elected on a platform of withdrawing from West Bank settlements and while in office offered the Palestinians a state along the lines of the international consensus of what it will take to settle the dispute.

Finally, the elephant in the middle of the room that explains it all is, as always, the right of return. As long as Palestinians hold on to that as a prerequisite for a settlement (and over the last 60 years, there is no indication that they haven't), it's hard to imagine anything more than managing an intractable conflict.

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turn around there is another elephant in the room looking at you: jerusalem as the eternal undivided capital of israel, forever and ever.

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Yeah, of course, the idea of justice is the biggest obstacle for AG's peace of mind. The moment we just give that wretched idea up, everything will be fine.

Imagine how easy it would be to solve so many problems around the world if people just agree to be f!@#ed for good!

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You know nothing of me evildoer. As a public defender in Brooklyn, I know plenty about justice and the lack thereof. I also have an appreciation for achieving the possible sometimes at the expense of the absolute.

(Not that I believe the right of return is the only just outcome. There have been numerous peoples displaced by wars in recent years who have found homes, Germans after WWII, Hindus and Muslims in India/Pakistan, Jews before and after the formation of Israel. Yet this 'crisis' continues, perpetuated by those whose concern for the refugees well-being is dwarfed by their antipathy toward Jewish influence in the region and who most certainly do not share evildoer's universalist principles).

But we don't need to argue over the justice of the right of return. You make my point nicely. As long as the attitude you extol predominates, no amount of Israeli concessions and creative divvying up of land will suffice. The only "just" solution is for Israel to cease to be Israel. And since that ain't happening anytime soon, if ever, don't be surprised when the bloodshed continues.

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so now it is people's attitudes that makes israel do what they do. if we could only change our attitudes then israel would start being a responsible player in the area. should i send flowers to bibi with a nice note? amazing!

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Pardon me. I should have said: As long as the Palestinian leaders (and their enablers) continue to insist on the right of return as a nonnegotiable demand, no amount of Israeli concessions and creative divvying up of land will suffice.

That should have been obvious. You and evildoer and the others prove my point about what Sleeper is saying. Among the irredentist crowd, the only concession Israel could make would amount to self-destruction.

Why not be honest about it?

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In my reading "the right of return" has been variously interpreted...

The interpretation I've seen mostly is...some Palestinians get to turn to Israel behind green line...but most get a hefty compensation as a proxy for a physical return.

My sense of ED's position is that the right of return should be a physical right for all Palestinians who wish to return to any part of Israel.

This dovetails, somewhat, and I don't know if this is his position, with the notion that Jewish nationalism is inherently racist and should be rooted out.

As to the second point, I think this is mostly a matter of numbers. No one seriously objects to a Saudi Arabia Only For Saudis or even only for Muslims. It's not a fight anyone is willing to take up, certainly not outside of SA, because most of the people their are "Saudi" and are Muslim. And the same is true of other "naturally occurring" ethnically homogeneous states.

Jews are fated never to be a naturally occurring majority--except maybe in Brooklyn-:) and not even there--so a Jewish national homeland will always be seen as a racist institution, I fear.

On the other, other hand...

There can never be a TRUE right of return for Palestinians. The Palestine they left no longer exists. Whatever it is or becomes, it will never again be "that."

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I think you've summarized the situation quite aptly.

Which brings me back to my original point and that of the cabdriver, who is dismissed as a racist crank (and to be sure, I don't agree with his position wholeheartedly). Yes, Israel can and should do more to improve the lives of Palestinians in the territories and in Israel. Its record on those scores is dismal. But the Israeli government also owes an obligation to protect its citizens. If unilateral concessions are met with only greater demands and increased violence, what is the point? That dynamic appears to be changing slowly in the West Bank with Abbas and Fayyad, placing a greater onus on Netanyahu, who appears woefully unprepared to move forward. But for evildoer, bluepearl, many if not most Palestinians, and so many of the others beating the incessant drumbeat of condemnation, it's not about concessions; Abbas/Fayyad are mere dupes; and there is nothing Israel can do short of self-immolation that will suffice.

It's funny that nearly every time I read these posts, I am initially in substantial agreement with the criticisms of Israel. By the time I get through the comments, my opinions harden and I my conviction of the need for a Jewish homeland is strengthened.

I'm sure mythbuster will have a clever quip at my expense on this last point. Have at it.

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Also, just compensation ought to be given to the Jews who were driven out of the surrounding Arab countries where their communities had resided in peace for centuries. Hannah Arendt, if I recall correctly, calculated that the net displacment was some 200,000 people. If both Jews and Palestinians are viewed as equal, both deserve recognition of a right of return or compensation therefor.

Mythbuster is an ass and does not check his facts very well.

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It's funny that nearly every time I read these posts, I am initially in substantial agreement with the criticisms of Israel. By the time I get through the comments, my opinions harden and I my conviction of the need for a Jewish homeland is strengthened.

I don't find it funny in the least. Their equivalents are a substantial part of the problem they seek to fix. They would all fail Diplomacy 101 miserably, and as players in Conflict Resolution Games, they would escalate the game to a massive world war in short order.

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100% correct...you are spot-on about it...which is sad...would be nice if it weren't the case but the tone the invective just reeks of so many past modes of condemnation one's ski9n begins to crawl...

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sorry for the typo...that was sup to be skin;-)

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"t's funny that nearly every time I read these posts, I am initially in substantial agreement with the criticisms of Israel. By the time I get through the comments, my opinions harden and I my conviction of the need for a Jewish homeland is strengthened."

That's your problem. I have the same problem, except that I'm more pro-Palestinian and constantly have to force myself not to go too far in the anti-Israel direction just because of the moral cluelessness of most Israel defenders that I see (and that includes many self-described liberal Zionists, though not all). I am also appalled sometimes by a few of the people on the pro-Palestinian side when they support attacks on civilians (as a few do) in the name of human rights. I don't know if that happens here, but it does at other blogs occasionally. And the self-described moderates and centrists on this issue can be as callous and insensitive as the so-called extremists.

If I let myself be too influenced by who annoys me, I'd have to come out in favor of universal misanthropy. (Universal because I annoy myself sometimes.)

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Jewish nationalism is not inherently racist, but all nationalisms have a potential to become racist, and the Jewish one we have today has realized that potential more than most. That`s undeniable.

The right of return is a fundamental human right, not a convenience based on whether other people like Palestinians as neighbors or not. It is also the condition for Jews becoming rightful residents of the Middle East and surviving in the region, and that possibility is getting more unlikely by the day. US Jewish support for Israeli racism is assisted suicide on the largest scale, which is done out of American Jewish narcissism and self interest. American Jews have drunk the koolaid, and believe that a political order that revolts every person who gets to experience it from up close can survive on force alone.

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did the right to vote granted to women and black destroy america or did it make america stronger? will granting one-man one-vote in palestine-isreal make it stronger or weaker?

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They are incapable of being honest about it except through (oddly inadvertent) other means...either here or another related thread you will find "evil doer" demanding silence and an end to any criticism of the methods of the individuals on the flotilla...and no I don't mean he wanted silence in regards to the actions of the IDF...

he just wants silence in regards to any dissent...a true "leftist" with fascistic highlights...

you are correct though...the goal of these people is the end of Israel...which so far they have been unable to achieve and hopefully will never achieve...

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Trust me, I don't feel any desire to know you beyond what you say here. Your knowledge of justice ends when it concerns Jews.

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I found the tone patronizing as well and passed Sleeper's article on to friends who don't comprehend this quality of the American liberal-left class...

there is a kind of big city mouse versus little city or country mouse quality to it that I have always suspected stems from feelings of inadequacy and inferiority on the part of many American Jews towards Israeli Jews...

this gives rise to patronizing statements that open the door to placing Israel into a kind of receivership as if it were outside the scope of history and in need of extra-historical guidance to solve its problems...which ironically edges the liberals closer to the anti-Zionists than they could ever admit...

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I also am mystified that someone with Sleeper's intellect can actually call "exemplary" a post by MJ Rosenberg which Well, in today's post alone, MJ (1) compared the "activists" on board the "freedom flotilla" to civil rights demonstrators, (2) falsely claims Israel never offered to transfer the goods aboard the ships to Gaza, despite countless published news accounts of this public offer, (3) falsely claims that Israel has actually blocked such deliveries, again despite published reports to the contrary, (4) states that the blockade is "not about stopping terrorism," but is somehow intended to perpetuate the occupation, (5) argues that Israel "provoked" rocket attacks on Sederot, and (6) invents out of whole cloth peace overtures by Hamas that never happened. How exactly does this tripe further the cause of peace?

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It is good writing -- but the more I read this piece the less I understand it. So perhaps it's not so good.

First, the Jewish driver is an ignorant racist with a "doomed logic" that "most Israelis these days seem to be sunk in." That sinks everything else he says, right there.

Then he sticks it to the Arabs. Hamas is ruled by "ridiculous and destructive theocrats" with "cynical supporters" who play "geo-political shell games." But there's hope. "Hamas and Hezbollah could evolve much as other seemingly terminally murderous organizations in Ireland and South Africa evolved." I don't think he likes them.

The Israelis he met "are cosmopolitan men, intellectuals, readers of Haaretz," but "very deeply pessimistic about the Israeli public". However the "best of Israelis feel despairing and isolated" with "midgets and monsters running most of the show." It's probably the doomed logic at work.

Finally "Our fellow wedding guests. . . believe that young Americans' most important work right now must be done in the American Jewish community itself." Huh?

I'd feel better if he had met some Arabs.

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FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS KILL CHILDREN.

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It reminds me of the "highly placed White House Official" who said something to the effect that "we are an empire now, we create reality [make things happen?], and you scribblers can analyze it to bits as we move on" So here is my scribble for the day:

Obviously there is an element of bluster to that view. But let's suppose that there is an element of truth to it also.

If we stress the truth part, we will suppose that we can ignore having a decent respect for the opinions of mankind, kick the can down the road, as Israel is wont to do, and let time take care of the "opinions of mankind". Isn't it true that hardly anyone is seriously outraged anymore at what happened to the Native Americans, except perhaps the Native Americans themselves? Isn't it true that the realist are merely describing how the world works in fact and crafting policy accordingly?

So why are we all pretending that this present situation is not tenable for Israel? Do you think Bibi and his advisors are fools that can't discern if a calamity awaits them in the future? What calamity exactly? I can hear some armchair realist in Tel Aviv ask.
Well here is a possible future for you. The world is so much more interconnected, information flows so much more freely and abundantly, national sovereignty is so much more diffuse globally; economies are so much more interdependent, it is impossible to pull off the kind of stuff of earlier time. That was one lesson that I took away from Viet Nam.

We are an empire: fine, but we cannot kick this can down the road without incurring serious damage to our standing in this global web we are in, and neither can Israel for that matter. All the arrogant posturing and hubris would be comical if it were not so frought with our oblivious reading of the unfolding consequences this implies for us.

Yes we HAVE to settle the situation for our own good. I applaud Sleeper, Jo-Ann Mort, MJ and all those people for steering public opinion--especially within the American Jewish Community-- towards an equitable solution to this problem.

As for Obama, I agree with Sleeper that the jury is still out on him, but that is small consolation given that action is required now and he seems to keep on putting his reputation on the line only to back down when Bibi ignores him.


That's the historical moment we find ourselves in today.


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Who knows, maybe Sleeper will surprise me.

Maybe next week he will publish essays about his visit to Bil'in and talking to the people of the Polpular Committees. Maybe he will report of his visit to the Galil and his conversation with Palestinians in strangualted Sachnin about what American Jews should tell the Jews of Misgav who are methodically stealing their land. Maybe he has recollections from the cab drivers that took him to meet Hamas sympathizers in East Jerusalem. Who knows. Maybe he visited an "unrecognized village" near Beersheba and talked to the people there about what kind of things American Jews can do to help usher a better future for the region.

Maybe, maybe. But I'm not holding my breath.

More likely, he will come back as ignorant as he went, convinced that only the people who read and write in Haaretz matter.

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keep throwing cold water in their faces until they wake up from their dream of seeing a racist-apartheid country as a butterfly.

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Bp, I really wish you could engage in this forum in a way that doesn't include this level of venom and hyperbolic rhetoric. Your 'keep throwing water in their faces' remark really captures the kind of conversAtion you want to have. It's just yelling.

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interesting that you chose to interpret it is as yelling. also interesting that you chose to respond to my post. i stand by the content that the people who are directly, indirectly, or unknowingly supporting the status quo in israel need to wake up.

did you ever tell cd9, the settler boy, to tone it down when he spews his out and out racist venom towards the palestinians on your site, advocating an nabka 2.0?

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I think some "persistent" rightwingers have been banned, such as YBD. There was a Russian Israeli who, I believe, was also banned.

c9, though prolific, is truly beyond the pale and can only be ignored or banned.

You, on the other hand, are an actual person and worth engaging. I think that's the difference.

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To me Josh She is a mentsh. I find myself yelling sometimes too.

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c9 is like a 13yr old kid sticking out his tongue and so obvious as to be ridiculous.His behavior mirrors Israeli "talkbacks" in style and substance.

Neither bar_kochba132 nor davai were banned for their "rightwing" views. It was their behavior.

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Peter Beinart
in conversation after the NYR piece came out.

I'm not asking Israel to be Utopian. I'm not asking it to allow Palestinians who were forced out (or fled) in 1948 to return to their homes. I'm not even asking it to allow full, equal citizenship to Arab Israelis, since that would require Israel no longer being a Jewish state. I'm actually pretty willing to compromise my liberalism for Israel's security and for its status as a Jewish state. What I am asking is that Israel not do things that foreclose the possibility of a Palestinian state in the West Bank, because if it is does that it will become--and I'm quoting Ehud Olmert and Ehud Barak here--an "apartheid state.
The blockade is there because Hamas won the election and Fatah works in collaboration with Israel and the US. The coup planned by Gen. Dayton and Dahlan, etc.
Hamas holds truces. Israel breaks them. Israel wants victory for its expansionist policies, not peace. 40 years of occupation is 40 years of an Israeli war of aggression. Full stop. And Palestinians have assumed that that the full right of return would never happen.
Expansionist policies guarantee the right of return by guaranteeing a bi-national state. Israeli racism is self destructive.
For you in your armchair
We've been through this before. I've supplied enough links in the past. AG is lying.
"I'm not even asking it to allow full, equal citizenship to Arab Israelis, since that would require Israel no longer being a Jewish state."
What sort of person would choose to live in such a state? Of any group. That's not a form of benefit I would ever want and I have no respect for anyone who would. There is no nobility in xenophobia.

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Jews:
Study the liquidation of Hungarian Jewry in the 1940s. Now, how was that handled exactly? Who helped with the selections and the orderly transports?
Learn exactly how this was done. One of the greatest enemies of the Jewish People is the educated Jew.
Hitler made it quite clear what would happen to Jews if he attained power and after he attained power he acted.
Do you still think he was just posturing? Was the Holocaust due to the intransigence of ignorant Jew taxi drivers?
Israel as land alone is nothing. Israel is the Jewish people so the destruction of Israel means Jew Slaughter.
And who will stop Holocaust II? The educated Jew, the American Jew?

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Maybe he visited an "unrecognized village" near Beersheba and talked to the people there about what kind of things American Jews can do to help usher a better future for the region. Auto insurance quotes online | Life insurance ratings

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Do you think Bibi and his advisors are fools that can't discern if a calamity awaits them in the future? What calamity exactly? mesothelioma | creare site

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