Zionist Children Losing Their Minds! ++ An Israeli On Why Jerusalem Is Utterly Not Israel
This story in the Forward today reminds me of something my older son wrote to us in a letter from Jewish summer camp when he was 14.
He told us the kids were terrific but that some of them were so paranoid about Israel that he thought they were "crazy." After all, these were all pretty well-off Jewish kids at a beautiful spot in Massachusetts and yet they acted like they were under assault by the world . Some of them were even Republicans (because of Israel).
"Dad, he wrote, there is nothing worse than fascist children."
Naturally, I saved that letter.
Of course, they weren't fascist, just brainwashed.
I was reminded of those kids when I watched the debate at Berkeley over the issue of divestment from two companies that supplied weapons to Israel.
AIPAC and Hillel, the Jewish student group allied with AIPAC, came up with the strategy of having Jewish students tell the university senate that seeing signs calling for divestment frightened them. Some broke down in tears when describing the pain of seeing pro-divestment placards in the student union.
It was hilarious because it was so utterly bogus. I know that I come from a different era. Back in the day when I was a pro-Israel activist on campus, we traded insults and threw chairs when confronted by our adversaries (some were scary Maoists!) but I don't recall weeping. We liked confrontation. We were college kids.
But this is the new style of pro-Israel advocacy built on victimhood. No wonder so few American kids buy into this. (As for Israeli kids, they would fall over laughing).
Not long ago, I talked to a boy from LA who had taken one of those propaganda trips from Auschwitz to Israel, designed to convey that the alternative to maintaining the occupation is death camps.
He said that it was awful. He was blown away by the horror of what he had seen. But on the bus leaving Auschwitz for Krakow or Warsaw, the adult escorts tried to work the kids up into a frenzy of weeping.
"They seemed to think that us seeing the ovens wasn't enough. They had to milk it and then turn it into a propaganda exercise. And I guess they thought that weeping hysterically was a good place to start. Even a couple of the boys cried," he said. "But I don't cry in public and my friends didn't either. I felt like thinking not crying. So they told me I didn't understand. But I understood. Me and my friends are just not big criers."
And now this Forward report about a 17-year old who, while taking the AP test in English Literature, freaked out when a test question referred to the late Palestinian professor and author, Edward Said. From the Forward:
The English Literature and Composition test, in which the question occurs, requires students to read excerpts of poetry and prose and compare them to other works they have studied in class. The passage from Said contains no reference to Palestine or Israel. But the test's description of the late Columbia University humanities professor as a "Palestinian American literary theorist and cultural critic" has led some pro-Israel students to object that the test has been politicized."I was really startled to see that quote because both of the practice questions didn't mention the writers' nationalities," said Ayelet Pearl, a senior at New York's Bronx High School of Science. "For me including this one clearly had political implications."
The Said quote on the AP test reads: "Exile is strangely compelling to think about but terrible to experience. It is the unhealable rift forced between a human being and its native place, between the self and its true home: its essential sadness can never be surmounted."
"I'm in a public school and most students here have the impression that Israel is the one attacking [the Palestinians]," the 17-year-old Pearl said. "To put a quote in like this subconsciously reinforces the idea that Israel's the antagonist, the aggressor, the one in the wrong."
The poor student lost it.
Though she had just 40 minutes to write the required essay, Pearl froze when she encountered the Said text. "I didn't know what to do because I wasn't comfortable answering it," she said. She decided to put a paragraph objecting to the quote's inclusion at the top of her essay. "I find it really inappropriate to put a political question like that on a test," she said she wrote.>sing this quote in the AP exam "is very reflective of the widespread use of education and testing as a platform for anti-Israel propaganda," she told the Forward.
So this is what pro-Israel advocacy has come to: turning kids into scaredy-cats.
Lots of luck with that, AIPAC & Co. Israel is the 4th strongest military power in the world. It has 200 nuclear bombs. It has an army of cool, tough, non-weepy soldiers -- many of whom look like Olympic athletes. And you are teaching victimhood.
No wonder the only way you get Jewish kids to line up behind Israel's current policies is by giving them free trips. But even that won't work if crying on cue is demanded.
There are plenty of things to cry about in this world. And Israel's self-destructive policies (and its treatment of the Palestinians) are among them. But, that isn't what the lobby is aiming for. Like the fundraising letters from AIPAC and the American Jewish Committee that clutter my mailbox, their goal is to convince the most secure Jewish community in history that they should be afraid, very afraid.
Here's a response from one young Jewish kid, Jason Serota, that appeared in the New York Times yesterday.
As a young American Jew, I can sympathize with those who feel that we don't have the connection with Israel that previous generations had. For our parents and grandparents, who lived in the shadow of the Holocaust, Israel -- the place and the idea -- was more of a necessity. For my generation, especially in the Northeast, anti-Semitism is rare and the Holocaust a history lesson.Israel will always be a special, important place for me (I was a bar mitzvah at Masada), and I believe its existence is vital. At the end of the day, however, I am an American and a Jew, and I find I don't have much in common with Israelis, other than as Jews. My home is here, in the diaspora.
Jason Serota
Philadelphia
He is not scared. And he is certainly not weeping.
ALSO, check this out from Tablet. An Israeli tells the truth about Jerusalem, not that it belongs to the Palestinians. That is not his point. His point is that Jerusalem is about as Israeli as the Orthodox enclaves of Brooklyn are New York. Israel is Tel Aviv, and thank God. If all of Israel was Jerusalem, there would be no hope.
MJ: Inversion of reality actually works...for a while. My sense is this is just creating the emotional backdrop in the Jewish community for the peace negotiations: when a tiny crumb is offered to the Palestinians, it will be described as the whole loaf of bread.
My prediction for next two years:
1. Obama will keep pushing.
2. When Netanyahu realizes that some type of deal is inevitable, he will lash at out at Lebanon (again) or Gaza (again).
3. Israel will probably also invade the West Bank and cause of a lot of damage. The Palestinians can't think they've "won" anything. They must pay a pricetag for gettting a concession.
4. Israel will then "compromise" by re-offering Taba (missus East Jerusalem) and the Jordan River Valley.
5. The Israel Lobby and the US Congress will then carry the narrative that Israel made "huge" concessions for peace.
6. Abbas/Fayyad will try to explain that a country that can't control its borders or drill wells under its own soil is not a country.
7. The US government will reluctantly acknowledge that the Israelis tried, but they had "no peace partner." Fayyad will be "unmasked" as just another unreliable Arab.
8. Then the full-bore anti-Apartheid struggle begins. Only at this point, Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi have been utterly discredited in the Arab
World as stooges and collaboraters.
Cynical? Yes. Realistic? Absolutely. My desired outcome? Heck no.
May 13, 2010 10:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
"1. Obama will keep pushing."
and be pulled in a dozen different yet interconnected directions as the increasingly antique Federal system groans under the weight of post-modernity and its discontents rendering the all-too familiar approach to the ME dead on arrival...
"2. When Netanyahu realizes that some type of deal is inevitable, he will lash at out at Lebanon (again) or Gaza (again)."
pulled by the endlessly unstable fractious nature of proportional representation domestically and vulnerable to provocation from abroad by a host of interested parties each pushing their agenda in an effort to maintain the status quo Israel will face increasing attacks from groups devoid of the ability to compromise and held in thrall to fanaticism and violence...
using Lebanon and Gaza as bases from which to launch attacks disguised as acts of "national liberation" against "oppression" but in truth are acts of oppression disguised as defensive measures against attack...
"3. Israel will probably also invade the West Bank and cause of a lot of damage. The Palestinians can't think they've "won" anything. They must pay a pricetag for gettting a concession."
The IDF will probably not touch the WB with a ten foot pole or anything else unless attacks originate from it and even then the response will be far less than an all out counter-attack...
However as this is a hundred year war and the context is a generational struggle it is indisputable that one of the core beliefs of Likud foreign policy is the idea that the Palestinians must accept the concept of being defeated... the success of that idea is open to debate...but it is the view of Likud...
"4. Israel will then "compromise" by re-offering Taba (missus East Jerusalem) and the Jordan River Valley."
Who knows...it depends on a host of factors...from the weather to the price of a bag of rice in Cairo to changes in the stock market or how well the bailout of the Euro is working to whether or not BiBi is still in power or gets knocked off in an election or via a scandal...
"5. The Israel Lobby and the US Congress will then carry the narrative that Israel made "huge" concessions for peace."
Probably but given the reality of the situation almost any concession Israel makes is enormous...
"6. Abbas/Fayyad will try to explain that a country that can't control its borders or drill wells under its own soil is not a country."
that's true which is why the WB and Gaza make as much sense as the location for a country as the Danzig Corridor did in its era...
"7. The US government will reluctantly acknowledge that the Israelis tried, but they had "no peace partner." Fayyad will be "unmasked" as just another unreliable Arab."
Also probably true but actually examining this contextually one confronts the ugly facts of US commitments to authoritarian regimes elsewhere and especially US commitments to tyrants with oil a peace deal is impossible and Fayyad will be used as a scapegoat...who is also unreliable...
"8. Then the full-bore anti-Apartheid struggle begins. Only at this point, Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi have been utterly discredited in the Arab
World as stooges and collaboraters."
They are stooges and collaborators and should be utterly discredited because of it...
However there is no system of Apartheid and what will happen is a ramping up of the usual barely disguised Antisemitism of the past in an effort to avoid the hypocrisy inherent in the West supporting tyrants just because they have oil...
as well as the abusive betrayal of the Palestinians by other Arabs and effete posers from the West...who live off of the corrupt oil system and cry about oppression while paying their taxes and weeping in their lattes and dog-earing old copies of Chomsky...
and then it will be business as usual...until the oil runs out...or the world economy really does fall apart...or some combination of both with overpopulation reductions in available clean water and other environmental degradations cause a paradigm shift...
oh and go ahead (that's an open invitation) to cyber-froth about how Israel is an Apartheid state...or any thing else anyone would like to bitch and moan about...
May 13, 2010 1:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're so sick, MJ. You portray Israeli soldiers as aryan gods "tough...Olympic athletes or models," but they cry too tom ve jerry izle when they lose colleagues or family in terrorist attacks. And if you ever got down and dirty with the IDF or had kids in combat units, tom ve jerry izle you'd know that they look just like all other men and women. You claim Israel is the 4th strongest military power in the world (I thought you pokemon izle dropped that propaganda line years ago), but on what standards? Behind the US, China, India, tom ve jerry izle türkçe çizgi film izle NATO, Russia, Pakistan? Number of troops, planes, tanks? Israel is far behind on all. And what good ben 10 izle are nukes if thousands of Hizbullah and Hamas rockets are falling on civilians. And get real pokemon izle about campuses -- Jewish kids -- even those who have pokemon izle nothing to do with Israel -- feel too threatened to wear a star of David necklace or yarmulka or attend a class on the Middle East. Or do you approve of the storm troopers who shut down Amb Michael Oren?
January 25, 2011 1:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
MJ: Inversion of reality actually works...for a while. My sense is this is just creating the emotional backdrop in the Jewish community for the peace negotiations: when a tiny crumb is offered to the Palestinians, it will be described as the whole loaf of bread.
My prediction for next two years:
1. Obama will keep pushing.
2. When Netanyahu realizes that some type of deal is inevitable, he will lash at out at Lebanon (again) or Gaza (again).
3. Israel will probably also invade the West Bank and cause of a lot of damage. The Palestinians can't think they "won" anything. They must pay a pricetag for gettting a concession.
4. Israel will then "compromise" by re-offering Taba (missus East Jerusalem) and the Jordan River Valley.
5. The Israel Lobby and the US Congress will then carry the narrative that Israel made "huge" concessions for peace.
6. Abbas/Fayyad will try to explain that a country that can't control its borders or drill wells under its own soil is not a country.
7. The US government will reluctantly acknowledge that the Israelis tried, but they had "no peace partner." Fayyad will be "unmasked" as just another unreliable Arab.
8. Then the full-bore anti-Apartheid struggle begins. Only at this point, Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi have been utterly discredited in the Arab
World as stooges and collaboraters.
Cynical? Yes. Realistic? Absolutely. My desired outcome? Heck no.
May 13, 2010 10:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
You're so sick, MJ. You portray Israeli soldiers as aryan gods "tough...Olympic athletes or models," but they cry too when they lose colleagues or family in terrorist attacks. And if you ever got down and dirty with the IDF or had kids in combat units, you'd know that they look just like all other men and women. You claim Israel is the 4th strongest military power in the world (I thought you dropped that propaganda line years ago), but on what standards? Behind the US, China, India, NATO, Russia, Pakistan? Number of troops, planes, tanks? Israel is far behind on all. And what good are nukes if thousands of Hizbullah and Hamas rockets are falling on civilians. And get real about campuses -- Jewish kids -- even those who have nothing to do with Israel -- feel too threatened to wear a star of David necklace or yarmulka or attend a class on the Middle East. Or do you approve of the storm troopers who shut down Amb Michael Oren?
May 13, 2010 11:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
" Or do you approve of the storm troopers who shut down Amb Michael Oren?"
Overstatement, maybe?
May 13, 2010 11:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
I read this piece and as with many others of your recent writings here there's the quality of projection (pressing on others what actually applies to you and the issues you're trying to defend). (See, what I think of as "Upchuck" - he gulped, Schumer mentioning shomer but never considering "awesome God" Obama, something to truly generate the gag reflex.)
You ridicule emotional concerns about the state of Israel and Israeli's and by extension, Jews and Jewish rights in the world while at the same time you repeatedly wail about the poor Palestinian people and their oppression and treatment. I don't mean to suggest that you don't have a point regarding the situation for the Palestinians, both in Gaza and the West Bank, but at the same time I see clearly the fundamental point that you never bring up and seem to avoid. The Palestinians have never offered Israel and the Israelis and indeed Jews in the area, peace. Real peace. Security as citizens. Every cease fire agreement (and that's all the various agreements that have been signed over the decades have been) always have the clause for the "right of return." Everyone knows that this is the dog whistle for the destruction of the state of Israel. Beyond that, since the "right of return" is never allowed to apply the Jews (then not yet Israelis) who lived outside of the green line, it's a dog whistle that does indeed sound of fundamental danger.
To put it in blunt metaphorical terms, the Palestinian leaders have shown themselves to be compulsive attempted murderers. You mourn their ineffectiveness at murder and somehow wail about the imbalance in the deaths as if the Israeli's should limit their responses to an equivalent kill count. True peace isn't a factor in your thinking.
This was the situation in the Gaza occupation and the incursion into Lebanon. Indeed so many of the "left" seemed to be thrilled by the closer equivalence in kill count between Hezbollah and the Israelis. No mention was ever made of the fact that Israel builds shelters for their citizens while their opponents build underground worlds to protect their fighters while firing missiles from the tops of housing complexes of their own citizens and then racing to photograph their dead when there's a response from the Israelis. Photos, often faked, are then touted by people like you of the horrors of the Israelis.
Yet all this is just an aside. Where has there ever been an offer of peace from the Arab world? You've mentioned in the past some Saudi offer (which was never even close to a peace offer and included the "right of return" clause) as if there was some reason to base anything on that. These are the same Saudis that demanded that Israelis not defend themselves against the missile attacks from Saddam Hussein during the "Gulf War." They could not in any way be seen to be allied with the hated Israelis. And while this was happening Palestinians were marching in Jordan chanting "Use the gas Saddam!"
Regarding the "right of return" I'd read years ago that the majority of Palestinians who were displaced would accept compensation for their displacement, thus actually allowing the state of Israel to exist through this clause. But as with all leadership that's dependent on war (and perpetual war) for their leadership (see Winston Churchill), this solution could never be chosen since true peace would end their basis of leadership.
This was obvious in the "peace" talks that Clinton had at the end of his presidency. The Israelis made repeated real concessions and when Arafat was finally confronted with his lack of response, he left in a huff and started the Intifada. An Arafat leadership could not exist without war. At that point Israelis saw that they had no "partner in peace" and nothing has changed since then (or ever for that matter). (You've ridiculed the Israeli peace offers but the problem with your ridicule is that the Palestinians always want to begin any further peace talks at the point of the abrupt ending of those talks, naturally where Israel made many concessions and the Palestinians offered none.)
Where's the peace? That's the core issue. True peace and true peace from the Palestinians and the Arab world. There isn't any and that's the strength the right wing crazies in Israel build on - just as the violent Palestinian factions do on their side.
You don't offer a solution, only another concession and another opportunity for murder, from whichever side.
May 13, 2010 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
"To put it in blunt metaphorical terms, the Palestinian leaders have shown themselves to be compulsive attempted murderers."
Yes, all national resistence is "murder" to the oppressors.
May 13, 2010 12:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
While I find Said to often be intellectually sophomoric (especially is failure to grasp Conrad's ridicule of Imperialism in general, British imperialism in particular and Conrad's devastating use of Churchill's post Boer War stump speech as an ironic send up of all the Churchillian aristocrats held sacred)...
and while I find his writing to be sadly lacking in a few important historical facts(the record of debate on the opium trade in the UK Parliament contradicts Said's meme about the "Orient being a blank space" to Westerns), I have zero problem with him being used on the AP Test and would encourage his use on such tests as an opportunity for students who care to write what they think.
Said's views should no more be censored or amended than Saragamo's...or other's who have strident and often erroneous views of historical cause and effect.
The answer is never censorship...it is to answer...
“Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever.”
May 13, 2010 1:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Now tell me why do you expect Muslims to reject their Prophet and allow Jews and Christians to live in peace in Israel?
May 13, 2010 2:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Now tell me why do you expect Muslims to reject their Prophet and allow Jews and Christians to live in peace in Israel?"
Hmmmm, perhaps by emulating Iran, a Muslim country that appears to have no problem at all with having a sizable Jewish population amongst its citizenry.
May 13, 2010 6:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
If I'm not mistaken 'Persia' has never been considered 'the land of the Arabs', so IRAN would not qualify as an example but the Middle East would.
May 13, 2010 9:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
not to mention "quaint" little pieces of Iranian law that stipulate if a Jew marries a non Jew his or her entire family is stripped of their Jewish ethnicity and listed as having "converted" regardless of their views to the contrary...
May 13, 2010 10:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not to mention the quaint peace of Israeli law that allows a Jewish Israeli to marry a non-Israeli Jew, who then can become a citizen, but prevents Israeli Arabs who marries a non-Isareli from gaining citizenship for him/her.
May 14, 2010 11:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
not to mention the quaint Israeli practice of maintaining an all too common half-assed system of deomocratic rights that allows for the all too messy electoral process so that people protected by the right to speak freely, read books and newspapers and log on to the internet can vote...for any number of political parties from bigoted Likud to limp Labor to faux-hybrid Kadmia to the Yoga Party...
much like the messy and often corrupt process in America where minorities are in a constant struggle to safeguard their rights to vote...own property...and gain employment and be paid a decent wage...and maintain the right to equal protection under the law...
and in this messy system like all of the other messy versions of democratic representation,we see, as in Arizona, or France, or Ireland, ugly measures become law...
and people are somewhat free to protest and vote and organize in efforts to change the law within the limitations of that system...
which is full of contradictions and often full of disasters...as in Arizona...
or England with its absence of a Bill of Rights and its omni-present surveillance grid and its four hundred yea long occupation of Ireland and even longer occupation of Scotland...
or in France where the police may arrest you for knowing someone who knows someone the police suspect (without proof of evidence being presented due to secrecy laws) of illegal activities...
and they may hold you without charging you beat you to force a confession and deny you access to a lawyer...
to which we are told these other actions however disreputable are of no connection to what is happening in Israel...
except that in our completely borderless world everything is connected and even if they weren't context allows for perspective so one does not engage in overstatements and, for example, call protesters "storm troopers" as you rightly pointed out in another post above this one...
but the generosity accorded to the same paradoxical and often brutally inept system of checks and balances here at home or in other countries, is for some reason not given to Israel...
which has been placed in a line-up in which their is no context no diversity and no scale or perspective thus rendering a guilty verdict as inevitable based upon a scale of judgment used with no other political-historical-cultural conflict...
"In this world without quiet corners, there can be no easy escapes from history, from hullabaloo, from terrible, unquiet fuss. "
May 14, 2010 12:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
There was a sizable Christian Arab population in Palestine coexisting with their Jewish and Muslim brethren before the establishment of Israel. Today, the Christian Arab population in Israel proper and in the occupied territories is dwindling at an alarming speed and proportions. The Christian Arab population or rather Christian Palestinians were and are still terribly mistreated in Israel and ,irony of irony, they are being partially blamed by Muslim fanatics in the occupied territories for Israeli repressive policies towards the Palestinians in general. Most of them live in Canada, Europe, and Australia.
May 13, 2010 8:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
So Muslim fanatics are taking out their frustrations on the Christian Arabs because Christians are taught to turn the other cheek, to love and pray for their enemies instead of hating them.
Christians in the Middle East and Israel specifically are the perfect scapegoats for Israeli policies, is this what you are trying to point out?
May 13, 2010 10:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Christians in the Middle East and Israel specifically are the perfect scapegoats for Israeli policies, is this what you are trying to point out?"
Nop, what I am saying is that Israel's treatment of its Arab minority and Palestinian in general including the Christian minority of Palestinians, contrary to the believes of a tiny small minority of Palestinian Muslim fanatics,and contrary to what you would like us to believe, is less than exemplary. The Israelis make no distinction between Christian Arabs and Muslim Arabs, the are all second-class citizens of Israel in Israel proper, and treated as less than humans in the occupied territories.
P.S. The Christian minority the occupied territories takes pride in resisting the Israeli occupation along side with their Muslim brothers. The majority of Christian Palestinians has left Israel and the occupied territories to settle mainly in Europe, Canada, and Australia, but as Christians they sympathize with their Palestinians brother, whether they are Muslim or Christian or Jews. Yes because they are Palestinian Jews who do not like what is happening to their brothers in Israel or the occupied territories.
May 13, 2010 11:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Okay, lets see how this type of argument works against your favor.
When a Jew and a goy come to court, you must absolve the Jew and take his side as far as possible according to Jewish law. If, however, the Jew can be absolved according to gentile law, absolve him (Babha Kama 113a).
A Jew shall not do injury to other Jews, but the law does not prohibit injury to a goy (Mishna Sanhedryn 57).
Only fundamentalists follow the actual letter of their medieval texts.
May 14, 2010 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wouldn't suggest "fascist" as a preferred denunciatory adjective for it, but if more American Jews stood up to say that Israelis-as-victim crap did not represent their views, beliefs, or voting intentions, Congress would pay it less heed it, and AIPAC would probably shift tacks. Unfortunately, there are plenty of Palestinians ready to help its cause by trying to kill Israeli civilians.
May 13, 2010 3:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not sure the propaganda jaunts and relentless indoctrination is merely to make young Jews afraid. There is something about victimhood that imbues exclusivity and even privilege. "We are forever hated, so we must remain apart. We are hunted and oppressed, so we must do so to our enemies." Victimhood is a cornerstone of Israel's raison d'être. No other country could so savagely assail its native population and be so accomodated by the guilty West. The victim is freed by his suffering from mundane humanity. This is the delusion of every killer and thief.
May 13, 2010 3:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
the students should be asked the following essay question:
.
what would happen if israel occupied vermont?
May 13, 2010 8:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
you left out the rise in real estate sharks dentists doctors shiesters and the disappearance of Christian babies for ritualistic slaying over Passover...
but how about this...
what if the Saudis bough Vermont...
1. women would be stripped of the right to vote own property divorce or to travel alone or drive a car...adultery would be punishable by death and death would be carried out by beheading or stoning...
2. Bookstores would be closed along with all independent newspapers and access to the internet would be severely restricted...
3. All depictions of religious faith except those approved by the royal family and their courts would be banned and any expression of religious faith other than that approved by the king would be punishable by death...
4. Schools would teach only those subjects approved by the king and or his religious judges who would monitor everything in the curricula as well as all teachers for any deviation from the law and all deviations would be punishable by stoning whipping amputation of limbs or death
5. Courts judges and lawyers independent of the king or the religious judges would be eliminated.
6. Free speech would be banned.
7. Music would be banned unless it is approved by the king or his religious judges. Religious police would be empowered to enforce these laws.
8. the religious police would be empowered to stop anyone and demand proof of piety failure to comply would be taken as proof of apostate and sedition against the king which would be crimes punishable by death.
9. Prisoners would be subject to torture and refused any rights including the right to avoid self incrimination and the right to confront their accuser and the right to a jury and the right to a fair and speedy trial with independent judges and lawyers.
etc etc etc...
so by all means...lets imagine what would happen if Israel took over Vermont...
May 13, 2010 10:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
and of course let's imagine what would happen if Israel took over Vermont...after being invaded by Massachusetts New York New Hampshire and Quebec...
or right...this requires context and the one thing that can never be allowed is context...
May 13, 2010 11:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
"what if the Saudis bough Vermont..."
two wrongs don't make a right but if you make three left turns you will end up going right.
May 14, 2010 8:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
exactly...two wrongs don't make a right...which why context is imperative...
for example...what if we ask what would happen if the Europeans invaded North America...killed the indigenous population except for those they enslaved...
and planted the seeds for the growth of an empire that at a certain point along the time line gives you the opportunity to talk about the contradictions of other aspects of world history...
would it become more or less difficult to speak in terms of absolute black and white morality or easier...
May 14, 2010 11:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
your arguments excuse and apologize for the jim crow style government in israel using intellectual arguments to confuse the simple issue of oppression. i reject both the sharia morality laws that subjugates people as well as israel's apartheid racist discrimination regime.
i support freedom, justice and equality. none of those things are in either israel or saudi arabia. the USA is an experiment in those values but that experiment is far from over. the final verdict will be left to history.
May 14, 2010 12:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
no you and are in complete agreement except that while you call American an on-going experiment and Israel a historical dead end I call the historical time line universal and a mixture without beginning or end...
and see that it is borderless and that phrases like "The Middle East" are obsolete 19th century forms of geo-political imperialist art that have no connection to current reality...
in which the seemingly distant "Middle East" is Times Square and a wheat field in Kansas and visa versa...
and the interplay and exchange between "here" and "there" "them" and "us" renders distinctions of otherness meaningless...
thus the semantically hollow argument that Hisotry is on-going in and with America but dead in Israel is either pure ignorance or deliberate and thus a racist view that casts Jews Israel and Jewish nationalism as being outside of the same historical timeline shared by everyone else...
May 14, 2010 12:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
no one is casting anyone out of history - an impossible thing to do. for now, israel has decided to be an apartheid country. for now, saudi arabia has decided to be a sharia dominated country subjugating women. they both have to live with it. i don't have to support either one.
what israel and saudi arabia are doing is a temporary phase. in the future, not in my lifetime, they will both embrace equality. i have full confidence in that. i am in agreement with Teilhard de Chardin that evolution has an omega point towards which humanity is moving towards. at that point dualistic self-concepts such as being a jew, christian, or muslim will be like the vestigial human tail or appendix. such self-concepts are a bad joke.
May 14, 2010 1:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Then I misunderstood...and I apologize as I agree and i am not making any excuses anywhere but I am also a faithful cynic and believe in repetitive cycles of history so unlike du Chardin who I admire anyhow I tend more to agree with Joyce and the Moderns who saw history as repetition...
shifting its tragic moments from here to there and its joys from there to here...
"Nowhere is it ordained that history moves in a straight line."
BARACK OBAMA, The Audacity of Hope
"To study history means submitting to chaos and nevertheless retaining faith in order and meaning. It is a very serious task, young man, and possibly a tragic one."
HERMANN HESSE, The Glass Bead Game
May 14, 2010 2:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
yes there are repetitive historical cycles but these are smaller cycles within the grand evolutionary cycle. the smaller cycles are subservient to the grand cycle. on the other hand, humanity can wipe itself out on the next blink of an eye.
May 14, 2010 5:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
the wiped out in the blink of an eye idea I agree with...if you can try and get a copy of Bill Joy's article in Wired Magazine about Ted Kyznsky (sp?)...
as to the cycles within cycles it's mind bendingly complicated, no?
Joyce relied on Vicco and Herder (among a host of others) and came down ultimately on the side of guarded optimism...on the other hand he also lamented and said: "History is a nightmare from which i am trying to wake..."
It seems to me that the fact of resonance over the millennium, the ways in which say Gilgamesh or Sam Spade, make sense regardless of how and where you portray them, speaks to a fascinating yet terrible continuity in human action...
in other words Arjuna rejects the need to fight and then is told by his charioteer (Krishna in disguise) that he has no choice...the cycles eat up everyone and everything regardless of a contrary view...
Ulysses (in a narrative borrowed heavily from the Gita) attempts to doge the draft but gets conscripted all the same...signifying a belief in the commanding nature of cycles...
of course they could be wrong...completely wrong...
and yet...
after some 10,000 years of what seems to be a process it does appear that one war pretty much sets in motion the next...there is always a coup...or a counter coup...a villain and a hero...revolution and so on...and I can not tell who makes more sense...du Chardin or Joyce...
Isaiah Berlin quoting Kant said "from the crooked timber of humanity no straight thing will ever grow.." yet concluded that by slow accretion liberalism would prevail over tyranny...
still, to borrow another phrase: "...isn't pretty to think so..."
but...here's hoping he's right...
May 14, 2010 5:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Policeman: "Come with me. You are under arrest. You have the right to remain silent, and to call a lawyer, but we are going to the station now where you will be fingerprinted and then held in jail until your trial."
Marlow: "How dare you detain me, you racist frother! Just because I ran two stop signs and three red lights and mowed down two little old lady pedestrians, one of whom is now on her way to critical condition at the hospital?! Didn't you see that other driver who ran THREE stop signs, and FOUR red lights and ran over FIVE pedestrians one whom just died in the ambulance, you Jew-hater, you!
May 14, 2010 1:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
paranoia and hysterical perversions of other's becomes you...
as does collapsing complex nuanced paradoxical historical operas into small neat packages that allow you to declare right and wrong with the ease of a chimp picking a balloon from a banana...
which is why you sound like a bigot because bigots always use that formulation...
however...if the policeman in your hypothetical was part of a police force that always stopped people on the basis of how they looked than I would call him a bigot...
if the town or city or country in which the police in your hypothetical were part of a long and well established tradition of racist policies and the culture in which the police operated had a long and well established history of segregation and violence against ethnic minorities or against groups on the basis of their religion...
and there was a general miasma of hatred in the air fueled by demagogues and opportunists and the government was generally corrupt then again...I would say...the cop in your hypothetical is a bigot...
but the "idea" that I am the one collapsing the argument to a pin point devoid of context by saying two wrongs make a right is nothing more or less than the kettle calling the pot black as you are the one who insists there is no context other then AIPAC's outsize influence and the failure of the American government and the American Jewish community to either care or relieve itself of AIPAC's power...
The idea that this is true may not be intended as bigotry but it is the exact formula employed by bigots who always seeks to demonize by isolation and to state that the isolated but all powerful minority has somehow (usually though amoral but crafty intelligence and a vast propaganda machine funded by wealthy individuals who move in and out of the shadows)connived its way to the top of the food chain...
and if only the rest of the endangered community would awaken to the "truth" they would be freed of this unwholesome monstrosity that threatens their very survival...
this is based upon your repeated posts an exact precis of your point of view...
and it sounds intentionally or not, exactly like the trade mark pathological delusional self-justifying lies of any other bigot...
as you always highlight injustice (real or imagined) in Israel...
and dismiss as unimportant or not true or too complex, those instances of the same injustices occurring elsewhere (thus creating the illusion that there is no other reason for the actions you describe) except Isralie chauvinism and bigotry, and that Israel's actions have no historical context and that no other forces or issues occurring anywhere else in the world have any connection to the political and cultural infrastructure of Israel...
I would say you are a bigot...or just ignorant...or both...and are clearly obsessed with some ill-formed malignant prejudice regarding Jews...
May 14, 2010 2:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Policeman: "As I already informed you, you have the right to remain silent. Now, if you don't don't exercise that right by shutting the hell up, you will also be charged with being a public nuisance and disturbance, and grossly harassing a public official. (To HQ on the patrol car phone: we also need to schedule a psychiatric examination)."
May 14, 2010 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
As your second post seems nothing more then a variation on your previously ill-formed and malignant post I see no reason to amend my answer except as I have with this comment...
paranoia and hysterical perversions of other's becomes you...
as does collapsing complex nuanced paradoxical historical operas into small neat packages that allow you to declare right and wrong with the ease of a chimp picking a balloon from a banana...
which is why you sound like a bigot because bigots always use that formulation...
however...if the policeman in your hypothetical was part of a police force that always stopped people on the basis of how they looked than I would call him a bigot...
if the town or city or country in which the police in your hypothetical were part of a long and well established tradition of racist policies and the culture in which the police operated had a long and well established history of segregation and violence against ethnic minorities or against groups on the basis of their religion...
and there was a general miasma of hatred in the air fueled by demagogues and opportunists and the government was generally corrupt then again...I would say...the cop in your hypothetical is a bigot...
but the "idea" that I am the one collapsing the argument to a pin point devoid of context by saying two wrongs make a right is nothing more or less than the kettle calling the pot black as you are the one who insists there is no context other then AIPAC's outsize influence and the failure of the American government and the American Jewish community to either care or relieve itself of AIPAC's power...
The idea that this is true may not be intended as bigotry but it is the exact formula employed by bigots who always seeks to demonize by isolation and to state that the isolated but all powerful minority has somehow (usually though amoral but crafty intelligence and a vast propaganda machine funded by wealthy individuals who move in and out of the shadows)connived its way to the top of the food chain...
and if only the rest of the endangered community would awaken to the "truth" they would be freed of this unwholesome monstrosity that threatens their very survival...
this is based upon your repeated posts an exact precis of your point of view...
and it sounds intentionally or not, exactly like the trade mark pathological delusional self-justifying lies of any other bigot...
as you always highlight injustice (real or imagined) in Israel...
and dismiss as unimportant or not true or too complex, those instances of the same injustices occurring elsewhere (thus creating the illusion that there is no other reason for the actions you describe) except Isralie chauvinism and bigotry, and that Israel's actions have no historical context and that no other forces or issues occurring anywhere else in the world have any connection to the political and cultural infrastructure of Israel...
I would say you are a bigot...or just ignorant...or both...and are clearly obsessed with some ill-formed malignant prejudice regarding Jews..
May 14, 2010 3:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know, not every post has to be long. I almost think you are employing the Alan Dershowitz filibuster: I used more words so i must be right.
May 14, 2010 4:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
someone once asked John Coltrane why his solos were so long...he said because that's how long it takes me to say what I have to say...
à chacun son goût
May 14, 2010 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Policeman: "Convicts on good behavior can listen to recordings of Coltrane or other musicians. But any musician egregiously and recklessly violating the traffic laws would himself need special permission in order to cut recordings while in prison."
May 14, 2010 6:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
As your second (third) post seems nothing more then a variation on your previously ill-formed and malignant post(s) I see no reason to amend my answer except as I have with this comment...
paranoia and hysterical perversions of other's becomes you...
as does collapsing complex nuanced paradoxical historical operas into small neat packages that allow you to declare right and wrong with the ease of a chimp picking a balloon from a banana...
which is why you sound like a bigot because bigots always use that formulation...
however...if the policeman in your hypothetical was part of a police force that always stopped people on the basis of how they looked than I would call him a bigot...
if the town or city or country in which the police in your hypothetical were part of a long and well established tradition of racist policies and the culture in which the police operated had a long and well established history of segregation and violence against ethnic minorities or against groups on the basis of their religion...
and there was a general miasma of hatred in the air fueled by demagogues and opportunists and the government was generally corrupt then again...I would say...the cop in your hypothetical is a bigot...
but the "idea" that I am the one collapsing the argument to a pin point devoid of context by saying two wrongs make a right is nothing more or less than the kettle calling the pot black as you are the one who insists there is no context other then AIPAC's outsize influence and the failure of the American government and the American Jewish community to either care or relieve itself of AIPAC's power...
The idea that this is true may not be intended as bigotry but it is the exact formula employed by bigots who always seeks to demonize by isolation and to state that the isolated but all powerful minority has somehow (usually though amoral but crafty intelligence and a vast propaganda machine funded by wealthy individuals who move in and out of the shadows)connived its way to the top of the food chain...
and if only the rest of the endangered community would awaken to the "truth" they would be freed of this unwholesome monstrosity that threatens their very survival...
this is based upon your repeated posts an exact precis of your point of view...
and it sounds intentionally or not, exactly like the trade mark pathological delusional self-justifying lies of any other bigot...
as you always highlight injustice (real or imagined) in Israel...
and dismiss as unimportant or not true or too complex, those instances of the same injustices occurring elsewhere (thus creating the illusion that there is no other reason for the actions you describe) except Isralie chauvinism and bigotry, and that Israel's actions have no historical context and that no other forces or issues occurring anywhere else in the world have any connection to the political and cultural infrastructure of Israel...
I would say you are a bigot...or just ignorant...or both...and are clearly obsessed with some ill-formed malignant prejudice regarding Jews..
May 14, 2010 7:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
If responding to this post with another longwinded reposting makes you right, then you were wrong before, in which case your acting like a broken record (of Coltrane on drugs, being tortured, singing "Jesus blood never failed me yet" -google it before you assume it has something to do with Jews) means you were wrong all along and still are. If you don't respond to this post, there is hope for you, but it doesn't prove that your cyber diarrhea above makes any sense.
May 14, 2010 9:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
asked and answered...
May 14, 2010 9:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
and you still sound like a bigot who is obsessed with Jews...
May 14, 2010 9:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hello Sweetpea...speaking of thing UK...this is for you and the other geniuses...read it...slowly...
it's rather long and I know how that tax's your ability to concentrate...
but after you have digested it...
I dare you to explain how the current administration is not guilty of assorted crimes and why they shouldn't be sent packing to the ICC...or some place else just as appropriate...
and just so it's clear...I am not an advocate for anyone in the GOP and I find the Tea Party group to be stealth Jacobins (sic) and Palin to be a complete fraud on par with Chance in Being There...
go ahead...I'm pitching it right down the middle of the plate...
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v32/n09/gareth-peirce/americas-non-compliance
May 14, 2010 9:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Judge: "Irrelevant and out of order:
Netanyahu is not in the dock for blowing up the King David Hotel
Fayyad is not culpable for the Munich Olympics terrorism.
Obama inherited the Guantanamo mess from Bush."
Unruly court audience members: "Try all the Guantanamo prisoners in America at once or let them go, and then send Cheney, Bush, Rummy, Wolfie, and Karl Rove there for life!"
Prosecuting Attorney: "Point of order. We have here evidence of serial slander. In between "sweet peas" there are repeated false accusations of "prejudice regarding Jews" "
Defense Attorney: "We plead not guilty by reason of more-or-less run-of-the-mill "liberal" with titanic blind spot on Israeli-settlers causing periodic temporary insanity."
Judge: "Why should an insane person have a driver's license and be allowed to run red lights at will?"
May 14, 2010 11:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I expected nothing less...thus game set and match...
May 15, 2010 7:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
oh and as to the allegation of a blind spot...
that would be interesting except as I've said repeatedly I don't support Gush Emunim or any of the other settler movements...
of course I also don't support your Jew-obsessed paranoia about the world in which the dreaded Black Helicopters have been replaced by Jews...seeking to control American foreign policy...
see you later sweetpea...
May 15, 2010 7:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
"I don't support your Jew-obsessed paranoia about the world in which the dreaded Black Helicopters have been replaced by Jews.."
Neither do I, so why must you make such heinously false accusations for roughly the 22nd time?
May 15, 2010 8:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
because as I said your lack of articulation makes you sound like a bigot even if you are not one...
your seeming lack of erudition is manifest in the way you seemingly unintentionally use every one of the well-established easily recognizable memes of the bigot...
the idea that AIPAC operates in isolation...
the way(s) in which you seek to dismiss the context of lobbying...
the way(s) in which you flip-flop from stating AIPAC is its own alpha and omega and the sin qua non of American ME foreign policy...
then without retracting this blatantly false meme you insist that while other factors may matter they are either irrelevant (which is just another way of saying the same thing) or you insist that they are too complex for the topic at hand...
which serves to isolate the issue and deprive it of any context...leaving people to assume that a wealthy gang of manipulative Jews is controlling American foreign policy...
the way(s) in which you seek to isolate Israel's various policies from historical precedent...
leaving only one conclusion which is that Israel is a monolithic structure devoid of any other forces and based solely on the racism and messianic pathologies of the settler movement...which is a reducto ad absurdum ad infinitum argument that is exactly analogous to saying America is only the issue of slavery and the colonization of the North American continent when it is all of that and a thousand other things...many awful and many wondrous...
your use of such memes as how the "majority" of Jews are either dupes or uninterested in what you call the nefarious influence of AIPAC & Co. which is blatant ergo hoc proptor hoc "reasoning" because it assumes not only facts not in evidence it relies on subjective definitions of key concepts like "involvement" and "concern" which you use as a priori "proof" that AIPAC is triumphant and that the Settler movement is triumphant and that both faces of this same coin dominate American foreign policy in a way that is out of proportion to their means or their strategic value...
which only works if and precisely because you separate it from the oil lobby and the military and tech lobbies which in fact are all part of the same mechanism and provide the context for many of the issues within the vortex of what we call the Middle East...
your lack of reference to the democratic methods used by many members of the widely varried Jewish community to effect Israeli policies is the perfectb example of why your posts sound like bigoted nonsense...
Alain Finklekraut is at one end of the spectrum and Saul Bellow is at the other and then there are countless others from Woody Allan's denunciation of IDF actions during the first Intifhada all of which you may dismiss as the ineffectual fables of elite dilettantes but the idea that the actions of such influential members of any community are without significant resonance is absurd and is simply a small example of the diversity and passionate commitment to activism within the Jewish community...
the invective you use...the casual use of thinly veiled bigoted tropes...
as in the insistence that a small group of wealthy Jews is manipulating the Government...
which is exactly the same tired old bigoted meme we've heard forever...
AIPAC is a front...
there is no such thing as a single issue...
oil is AIPAC AIPAC is oil and together they are everything from the price of wheat in Canada to computer chips in Taiwan...
all nations operate along an infinite continuum...
and taking as an example Rosenberg's definition of the split between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem...
a nuanced view would remind readers that this split between the desert and the coast is one of the foundational memes of Israel going back to the split between Hellenized Jews and rejectionists that occurred over two thousand years ago and keeps cropping up and is dealt with by such people as Yaakov Shabtai...
and is nothing new and in fact does not represent the triumph of the Hasidim but in context represents the on-going schism between competing cultural forces with one in temporary ascendancy followed by temporary retreat...
just like in every other country...
as in Obama's demographic populist tide versus the GOP's southern tide...back and forth forth and back...
that's why I keep posting the truth...
you can call it a lie or a distortion as you like...
but I'll keep posting an alternative view...
May 15, 2010 10:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
We should be most grateful to the webmasters at TPM if they could do something about the the technical glitch, which is causing duplicate or triplicate posts.
May 13, 2010 9:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
MJ, a personal story...
When I first arrived at Georgetown University as a tender 18 year old in 1970, I encountered a very strong Zionist classmate in the first week.
I was Jewish, but not very. I knew about Israel and Zionism, but just barely.
Anyway, this guy got into my face and said something like, "You'd better support Israel because, someday, you may need her to escape oppression here."
Being a polite young man, I nodded my head. But inside I thought, "Is this guy out of his mind?!" My childhood had been so benign in all ways and so little touched by anything one could call anti-Semitism, I couldn't believe he and I were living in the same country.
Anyway, he was the "spark" that lit my Jewish consciousness--though I took a very different path--so all things serve a useful purpose. But I still think the guy was nuts and wonder if he still is.
Except...maybe not everywhere in the world.
I note the article you wrote about today's Lithuania and some other things I've heard about Europe. Then there were the protests for "Jews to get out" of Venezuela during Cast Lead. (Either a Venezuelan Jew is a VENEZUELAN or he's not. You can't have it both ways.) And I'm not sure France is all that friendly toward its Jews.
I think we have to grateful for the miracle that is the USA whilst remembering that the world has yet to catch up.
Just as a PS about the nutbar I encountered in my first days as an undergraduate. He used to light candles on Friday night, but said he did so only because he lived in the Diaspora. When he moved to Israel (did he? I don't know) he wouldn't "have" to light candles and he wouldn't because living in the State would automatically confirm his Jewishness. Being somewhat of a religiously oriented young person, I thought this was a VERY odd statement, but I've since come to see how it fits into at least PART of the Zionist outlook.
May 14, 2010 10:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
The problem with thin-slicing a problem is that everything turns out to be "true." Just because someone in Venezuela held up a sign or chanted a slogan does not a pogram make. Anymore than the anti-Arab hate fest in NY (wonderfully exposed by Max Blumenthal) should "prove" that America is going to conduct a pogram on Muslims. See http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/04/feeling-the-hate-in-new-york/
May 14, 2010 11:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hmmm, interesting that someone mentioning a person in Venezuela chanting a slogan is "thin-slicing" significant of nothing but Max B videoing edited comments at a rally is "exposing". What was so wonderful what Mr. Blumenthal posted???? How does it expose anything more then the sign holders in Venezula ?
May 14, 2010 6:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
You sound so smart that I can't understand you.
May 14, 2010 7:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry. I assumed someone who busts myths wouldn't have such a hard time understanding a few straight forward questions. My bad.
May 14, 2010 10:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, Jeff54, to be blunt, your comment made no sense. If you re-read my post, you will see that the "thin-slicing" involves using anecdotes to prove a larger point. That is always fraught with peril.
The Max Blumenthal citation had one simple point: Just becuase a bunch of crazy Jews and Christian Zionists in NY doesn't mean that America is going to launch an anti-Muslim pogram. Just like a sign or chant in Venezuela may prove nothing.
May 15, 2010 2:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're being totally disingenuous and I think you know it MB . Max Blumanthal's point was to try and tar NY Jews and Zionists in general with the comments of a few nutters. If you really believed his intent was to show that America isn't going to launch an anti-Muslim pogram just because of the comments of a few crazies, please explain firstly why you used the term "exposed" to refer to Blumenthal's piece and secondly show me where Blumanthal makes this claim in his commentary? Are you saying that Blumenthal isn't "thin slicing" but the posts about people in VZ are ? So far you have avoided answering my questions by playing dumb lets see you try and give me an answer this time.
May 15, 2010 3:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
No and actually I was going to add that I don't think anti-Semitism is the problem it once was, even in Europe.
That said, I don't know what "thin slicing" is, so it's hard to answer you directly. If you mean "not representative," then perhaps. I can't say if what I heard represents a real problem in Venezuela.
I'm pretty sure anti-Semitism was/is a real problem in Argentina, however, particularly around the "disappeareds." Still not equivalent to Europe in the 1930s, but it might be nice for these Jews to have a place to go.
May 14, 2010 10:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
They have wonderful places like NY and Tel Aviv. I only oppose it when they want Palestinians homes!
May 15, 2010 2:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Victims suck rocks big time.
'nough said.
C
May 14, 2010 1:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dementia is certainly getting around. It certainly is not limited to any one government, but the U.S. may be decidedly in the lead.
May 15, 2010 9:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
if memory serves it was probably about thirty or more years ago that William Burroughs observed that language is a virus...but then in a manner of speaking, so did "Lewis Carrol"...
May 15, 2010 9:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Marlow, if you equate Israel, Jews, and AIPAC, as in your last mile-long post above, no wonder you make up such ridiculous fables about me. Lying insults are nonetheless uncalled for here (regardless of whether they are called for anywhere). No excuses.
May 15, 2010 1:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
kettle to pot...kettle to pot... can you hear...yourself...
"Marlow, if you equate Israel, Jews, and AIPAC, as in your last mile-long post above, no wonder you make up such ridiculous fables about me"
PTroub: AIPAC dominates American foreign policy on the ME
PTroub: AIPAC operates in isolation
PTroub: AIPAC has power out of proportion to its size or the strategic value of Israel to America
PTroub: Other lobbys especially enormously powerful ones like oil military and tech have no relationship to or with AIPAC or American foreign policy in the Middle East
PTroub: Even if they do have a relationship it is too complex to be discussed here and should be discussed elsewhere...
PTroub: the Jews either don't care or are dupes...
PTroub: criticism of my posts is part of the Habaranik pathologically sick propaganda lie machine...
etc etc etc etc etc etc...
nope...not a lie in any of those paraphrases as each is an accurate reflection of the statements you have repeatedly made...
and as such they represent not only a distortion of my posts but a blatant distortion of the facts...
and even if you are not and have no intention of sounding like a bigot statements that skew AIPAC and Israel and the Jewish community in such a manner as your posts do sound exactly like the kinds of things a bigot would say...
and a dissection of a style of posts with reference to historical tropes or memes is never off limits accept or unless free speech is suspended...
as to the length of my posts being a problem for you...
it hardly seems believable that you would be bothered...
to read...
something...
you insist...
bothers you...
as much as you claim...
you don't like it...
don't read it...
or turn the Chanel...
May 15, 2010 2:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are still putting words in my mouth unjustifiably, but the misattribution quotient is diminished significantly in this last post from your prior norms.
"Jews either don't care or are dupes" is an exaggeration of what I've been saying, but it is basically true. I said essentially same thing on numerous occasions about Americans for 8 years under Cheney and Bush. Does that mean that I am a self-hating American, that I deny the "widely varied nature" of Americans' opinions, that I believe that a "small group of wealthy" Americans "is manipulating the Government"? Such statements would be complete crap, and yes it bothers me to have such vile reckless falsehoods actually and repeatedly said about me (in connection with Jews). MJ is Jewish and for all his imperfections I think he is doing a splendid public service here, and I am certainly not "prejudiced" against him because of a small minority of co-religionists of his who are perverting the name of the majority.
For all your worldly wise witticisms, you have the skin-thickness of a three year old, Marlow, and the manners to match. Nobody else here trashes the readability of the page by writing vertically out of some pseudo artiste egotrip. Grow up and maybe people might even take you seriously for a change.
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AIPAC would probably shift tacks. Unfortunately, there are plenty of Palestinians ready to help its cause by trying to kill Israeli civilians. Refinance My Mortgage
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I think that the Palestinian leaders have shown themselves to be obsessive murderers. You are absolutely right that the national resistance is "murder" to the teasers.
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