Foreign Policy Hawks: Wrong Since 1938
In every international conflict, the side that favors war invariably gets to "own" the flag. Those favoring diplomacy can complain as much as they choose, but it's always the hard-liners, the hawks, and the "bombs away" crowd that successfully portrays itself as defender of the nation's interests. This is true during the build-up to war, throughout the war, and afterwards. No matter if the war turns out to have been built on lies or false premises -- or even if its results harm the nation's interests -- the side that pushes for negotiations is always put on the defensive by flag wavers.
This is hardly new. Sometimes, it gets pretty hypocritical.
In 1962, just after the Cuban Missile Crisis, a "White House source" leaked a story to a major national magazine that America would not have prevailed if President Kennedy had heeded the recommendation of United Nations Ambassador Adlai E. Stevenson. The source -- who, it was soon revealed, was JFK himself -- said that Stevenson had proposed a "Munich." ("Munich" is shorthand for appeasing the Nazis and the hawks were certainly right about that).
Stevenson was outraged and not just because he was being hung out to dry by his own President. The thing that really upset Stevenson (and was not revealed publicly until he and Kennedy were long dead) was that the "Munich" Stevenson was accused of proposing was also supported by Kennedy himself. The idea was that, to avoid war, the United States should make a deal with the Soviets. In exchange for removing their missiles from Cuba, the United States would remove its missiles from Turkey (near the Soviet border).
To a large extent, it was the missile trade that ended the crisis. The Soviets were forced to publicly remove their missiles. We quietly removed ours. Not to put too fine a point on it, but the planet was saved.
But Kennedy couldn't tell the public that. To avoid inflaming the right, he had to pretend that he had made no concessions to the Soviets when he knew he had. Even with the survival of mankind at stake, the White House felt that it had to tell the public it had resolved the missile crisis without compromising on anything. (The Stevenson smear was designed to ensure that if the Turkish missile story ever came out, it could be blamed on the "soft" United Nations ambassador.)
The President's strategy worked and, following the crisis, his poll numbers soared. He had succeeded in looking tough while secretly compromising. The Democrats did not let the Republicans beat them in the "capture the flag" game and Kennedy was able to move on to pursue detente with the Soviets. A good ending for all.
That is not usually the case. The disastrous Vietnam and Iraq wars were both successfully promoted by a combination of lies and the smearing of skeptics all under the cover of the stars and stripes. The same dynamic could happen with Iran, if we allow it.
But, hopefully, the lessons of Cuba, Vietnam and Iraq have been learned. The uncompromising hawks get to wave the flag, but they are not the ones who promote American interests.
A similar case in Israel resulted in the worst moment in that country's history, and almost caused the loss of the state itself.
The year was 1971 and Israel was still occupying the Sinai Peninsula, Egyptian territory that it won in the Six Day War four years earlier.
The President of Egypt, Anwar Sadat, wanted it back. But, even more, he wanted Israeli forces to pull back a couple of miles from the Suez Canal so that he could re-open the canal to commercially profitable international shipping. He sent word to Israel, by way of the United States, that if Israel withdrew from the banks of the canal, he would begin peace negotiations with Israel.
Here is how Israeli historian, Zeev Maoz, who fought in three of Israel's wars, characterized the Sadat offer (in his brilliant Defending the Holy Land: A Critical Analysis of Israel's Security & Foreign Policy, University of Michigan, 2006): "The offer could not be overstated...At the end of the road was what Israelis had been, presumably, praying for the previous 23 years: a full-fledged peace treaty....formal acceptance of and peace with the Jewish state by the strongest and most important Arab state."
He wrote that before 1967 Israel would have accepted the deal in a New York minute. But in 1971, Israel was already intoxicated with the idea of holding the occupied territories. That was better than peace. As Prime Minister Golda Meir said, "we never had it so good."
The United States pushed hard to get the Israeli government to accept the offer. But the prime minister and the majority of the cabinet resisted. They felt that Egypt would not be in a position to go to war with Israel for years, if ever. Why concede anything now? They said no. They would not even consider it.
It was at that point that Sadat decided that the only way he would regain his territory would be through war. He devoted the next two years preparing an attack and then, in October 1973, the Egyptians crossed the canal, wiped out the Israeli defenders, and -- with Syrian assistance -- came close to defeating Israel itself. (Defense Minister Moshe Dayan said that the Jews were in danger of "losing the Third Temple" -- by which he meant Israel. Prime Minister Meir is said to have considered suicide.) But, in the end, President Richard Nixon -- who had urged Israel to accept the 1971 Sadat offer -- authorized the most massive arms airlift in history, told the Soviets to butt out, and provided Israel with the time and space it needed to prevail.
But it was at the cost of 3,000 young lives -- all of whom would have been spared if Israel had taken up Egypt's offer. And, in the end, in exchange for peace, Israel had to give up not just the 2-3 miles Sadat had originally demanded, but every last inch of the Sinai.
In Israel, the failings that led to the war were investigated and, following publication of a report, the government fell. But the mindset that produced the debacle did not really change. To this day -- with the exception of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin -- successive Israeli leaders have adhered to the belief that the risks of aggressively pursuing peace far outweigh the risks of war.
As for the status quo pro-Israel organizations in the United States -- which backed the Israeli government in its rejection of Sadat's offer and told the US not to pressure Israel to accept it -- they never acknowledged that they were wrong or that the people they criticized for urging Israel to show some flexibility were right. Not even the 3,000 dead -- and their grieving wives, children, parents, and siblings -- had an impact on a mentality that held that more land meant more security. And that the government of Israel is always right, that the Arabs will never get their act together and that, in the end, Israel can have its cake and eat it too.
Fortunately, that mindset is now changing, especially after the 2008 Gaza war.
Proponents of the status quo can no longer succeed in intimidating the proponents of negotiations into silence. They try. But their game is lost. They have been proven disastrously wrong too many times: the 1973 Yom Kippur War, two Lebanon wars, and Gaza. And no one will silence the critics. Why should we be silent when it is us who have been proven right over and over again?
CROSSPOSTED MEDIA MATTERS ACTION NETWORK where I am gainfully employed.

















Well well, an actual argument, intelligently presented, by M.J. Rosenberg. It just goes to show what some people are capable of when they take the time to think about something rather than just be hacks.
In general, I think the analysis is correct, although as usual, the parts of the story that don't fit the narrative are conveniently left out. With respect to the Cuban Missile Crisis, Kennedy had good reasons to keep the missile trade a secret other than to prevent "inflaming the right", although clearly that must have been part of his calculation. If the US were seen to be offering a deal to the Soviet Union as a response to an unambiguously aggressive act like putting offensive missiles in Cuba, it would have signaled that the US could be intimidated into other concessions as well. It's the same reason why we don't openly negotiate with terrorists now (but sometimes pursue secret deals). To be seen to be responding to terrorism by offering an open deal is to invite more terrorism. It's the very definition of appeasement.
I also note that M.J. seems to attribute the 3,000 deaths in the 1973 war solely to Israel's shortsighted actions. Sadat's decision that he had to go to war is treated as just a given, if not fully justified by Israel's actions. Nowhere is there any questioning of why war was necessary. Why couldn't Sadat have proposed peace openly back in 1971? Why the secrecy? Surely he knew that an open declaration of intent to pursue peace couldn't be ignored by Israeli leaders? Why doesn't the argument that M.J. is making, that negotiation is better than war, apply to Sadat?
In fact, the reason Sadat wanted war in 1973 wasn't just that he thought this was the only way to get the Sinai back. After the humiliation of the 1967 defeat, he realized that he needed some sort of Arab "victory" to regain the "honor" lost in the Six-Day War. Even though the 1973 war was ultimately a defeat for Egypt, by catching Israel flat-footed and claiming the initial victories, Sadat was able to gain enough internal political standing to make his dramatic visit to Jerusalem in 1977. He felt - and he was probably right - that he wouldn't have been able to make peace without war first. In other words, Sadat had his own problem of "inflaming the right" that needed to be solved before peace was possible. Yet somehow it's always Israel that is called out for this shortsightedness and never its enemies.
February 26, 2010 12:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why couldn't Sadat have proposed peace openly back in 1971?
You can't be serious!
February 26, 2010 3:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, but he is. He's a very sad character.
February 28, 2010 3:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
What youre saying is completely true. I agreee with you
children health
January 12, 2011 7:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
I do agree with all the ideas you have presented in your post. They’re very convincing and will definitely work. Still, the posts are very short for starters. Could you please extend them a bit from next time? Thanks for the post.by healthy families and child health plus
March 25, 2011 9:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
"hopefully, the lessons of Cuba, Vietnam and Iraq have been learned."
The one major lesson from Viet Nam which was NOT learned is that when the USA declares defeat and withdraws, within 15 years the country in which the USA was fighting becomes peaceful and also becomes a trading partner of the USA.
This does not happen as long as the war is ongoing.
Follow the money and see who is profiting from the Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, and Pakistan war and you will see who is continuing to promote the continuation of this war.
It does NOT serve the interests of the USA, only the interests of a very few, very rich, getting richer people.
.
March 1, 2010 5:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for your patience and sorry for the inconvenience!
Best regards, Mary, CEO of youtube to mp3
December 17, 2010 4:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for describing Sadat's 1971 offer. It often goes unmentioned in short summaries of Sadat's life--here is an example from his obituary in the NYT--
link
I think the 1971 offer is down the memory hole for the reason Chomsky gives somewhere--it doesn't fit the storyline of an Israel always willing to make peace with any Arab leader that offers it.
February 26, 2010 12:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Incidentally, part of the "credit" for the failure of Sadat's 1971 offer should go to Henry Kissinger, according to Seymour Hersh. William Rogers welcomed the offer, but Kissinger did not.
link
(You need to scroll down a bit to find the relevant paragraph.)
February 26, 2010 12:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
"peace in our time" - Neville Chamberlain
Nothing more needs to be said to prove what a fool you are.
February 26, 2010 12:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, no, that's not correct. The fact that Chamberlain was a fool does not mean that anyone who talks about peace is a fool. You are clever for a bulldog though--I've never heard of one that could type non-sequiturs, or anything else for that matter.
February 26, 2010 1:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
The most charitable reading of your remark is that you read the title "Since 1938" and interpreted that to mean that MJ was including 1938 hawks in his criticism. But since he said ""Munich" is shorthand for appeasing the Nazis and the hawks were certainly right about that", you would be incorrect.
February 26, 2010 1:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, M.J.
If you've been following Anthony Weiner this week and you know Johnny Cash, check out my version of "A Boy Named Weiner"
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/c/l/clay_allison/2010/02/a-boy-named-weiner.php?ref=reccafe
February 26, 2010 1:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
I always read your posts because they are some of the few American sources that raise the Israeli-Palestinian conflict out of obscurity, official talking points, and official non-attention. There are evenings when BBC opens with stories or covers them from the conflict that don't get a mention on CNN or are deep 6'thed at the NYT. The shameful thing about news coverage now is this non-attention to important issues. That, in itself, lessons the effect when discovered elsewhere. Any good course in journalism these days makes students take a look at a time when journalists could really change things. That time seems over, mostly. Israel and Palestine could end the world. Tiger Woods can't.
February 26, 2010 1:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
B.H.O is the American modern version of Chamberlain
Appeaser ,Out of touch, Beside words he had nothing - JUST Walking teleprompter !
Against ISlamists/Jihadists you have to use an iron fist as everybody understand that with nazis you can't achieve "peace in our time" ...
February 26, 2010 2:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Name three politicians who don't use a teleprompter or shut the fuck up.
February 28, 2010 3:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
expat,
hahahaha, good one :-)
And if they don't use a teleprompter they write notes on the palm of their hand.
February 28, 2010 9:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
DID MJ Mention that Anwar Sadat killed by Islamists from the Muslims brotherhood = Hamas ?
Peace ALEK ?
February 26, 2010 3:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Munich" is shorthand for appeasing the Nazis and the hawks were certainly right about that.
Chamberlain's mistake wasn't "Munich"; it was declaring war on Germany in 1939 -- a hawkish stupidity which in the absence of Pearl Harbor and Stalingrad would have gone down as the greatest misjudgment in the annals of Albion's arrogancy.
February 26, 2010 4:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
you can't be serious
February 26, 2010 11:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Like Brad, I welcome this well-thought out piece from MJR - one that I largely agree with.
But as one of MJ's frequent detractors, I am constrained to air a few grievances.
I don't think it's fair to lay primary responsibility for the death of 3,000 Israelis in the 1973 war to hawks who balked at Sadat's clandestine offer to negotiate peace if Israeli forces withdrew a few miles from Suez. When Egypt and Syria launched their surprise attack in 73, their goal was not to push the Israelis away from the canal. Rather, it was the same it had been since 1948 - the destruction of Israel.
I also take issue with the assertion that "with the exception of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin -- successive Israeli leaders have adhered to the belief that the risks of aggressively pursuing peace far outweigh the risks of war." For all of their failings, Barak and to a lesser (though not insignificant) extent Olmert both aggressively, if quixotically, pursued peace. Sure, one can argue that their approaches were flawed, they could have done more, etc. But both offered deals that were essentially the same as what I would imagine MJ Rosenberg envisions as an end to the conflict.
February 26, 2010 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
"When Egypt and Syria launched their surprise attack in 73, their goal was not to push the Israelis away from the canal. Rather, it was the same it had been since 1948 - the destruction of Israel."
Utter nonsense.
When the Egyptian army crossed the canal and wiped out the Bar Lev line they immediately dug in i.e they made not the SLIGHTEST attempt to move forward out of the protection of their SAM missile sites.
How is anyone going to "destroy Israel" from a foxhole?
And when the Syrians drove every IDF soldier off the Golan Heights their tanks were on the edge of those heights, and looking down on the plain below it.
They then had two choices:
1) Charge down from those heights in a dash into Israel.
2) Stop dead, and give the IDF time to organize a counter-attack.
Pretty hard to claim that you are out to "destroy Israel" if you choose option (2).
Assad chose option (2).
February 26, 2010 6:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Utter nonsense"? That's a strong assertion. And while you seem to have familiarity with the military history, still unwarranted.
It's widely acknowledged that the Arab states only gave up on their goal of a military conquest of Israel after the 73 war. I don't think there's much dispute on that point - and certainly, their own words at the time demonstrate their aim being the destruction of Israel. If their goals initiating the war were more limited, it was only because their capabilities were insufficient. Do you really believe that either Sadat or Assad just wanted their territory back and were willing to call it a day? That's what I'd call utter nonsense.
True, Sadat apparently wanted to drive Israel back to extract territorial concessions. The decision of the Egyptian army to dig in after crossing the Bar Lev line was made, as you point out, to stay within the protection of their SAM missiles to avoid the calamity of 67, not as an end unto itself. Indeed, the Egyptian forces quickly launched attacks on Israelis from those positions, but were unable to break through the Israeli lines. You can read about it on Wikipedia.
So too with Syria. I don't know where you got the idea that Assad had a free path to "dash" into Israel but just stopped - I guess because he was such a benevolent, peace loving guy who really just wanted the Golan back. It's late and I'm tired, so I'll just quote Wiki here (not authoritative, but pretty comprehensive and well sourced), picking up after the initial hours of the Syrian advance (which, like the Egyptians, were limited to the protection of the SAMs):
But I suppose it's all Israel's fault somehow. It always is.
February 27, 2010 12:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
No "somehow" about it. Their whole country exists on land they stole from the Palestinians in 1948. No amount of Israeli propaganda will ever change that fact.
And the Israelis have been offered peace many times if they would at least withdraw to the 1967 borders. Fuck them. They deserve whatever happens to them.
February 28, 2010 3:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Other, reasonable, peace-loving humanitarians agree with your subtle analysis:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1152862.html
February 28, 2010 2:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Look, sunshine, Sadat sent his army across the canal with ONE objective in mind: To Grab The Other Side Of The Canal.
That's it.
End of story.
"For some as-yet-unexplained reason, the Syrians were close to reaching the Israeli defenders at Nafah"
*chortle*
The reason can be explained by simply looking at what their ally was doing i.e. the Syrian had NO INTENTION of pressing any further than a pre-designated line of advance i.e. they stopped because they had NO INTENTION of invading Israel.
That you jingoistic Wiki-writer "can't explain it" is because the explanation does fit into his - and your - narrative, and therefore Must Not Be Mentioned.
You really are an outrageous - and transparent - Hasbarah Hack.
"allowing Israeli forces to assemble a defensive line."
*chortle*
So is this wiki-writer; he is admitting that the Israeli forces did not have a defensive line when the Syrians stopped i.e. there was nothing between the Syrian tanks and the plain below, and yet the Syrians did not press forward.
February 28, 2010 4:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
How quickly we devolve. Kind of like calling someone antisemitic. Or even better, for those who qualify, self-hating Jew. Great debating points all. Somehow, it's only when the antisemitism charge is trotted out that the friendly folk tossing around the Hasbarah label cry foul.
Look, I'll accept that Sadat's immediate tactical aim in initiating the war was more limited than the destruction of Israel - owing primarily to the recognition of the limitations of his capabilities. As for Sadat, I'm not so sanguine, although he too must have been aware that such an outcome was unlikely. (Still, despite what you so confidently believe was Sadat's true intention, the Syrians were apparently caught offguard when the Egyptians dug in after the first days of the war, allowing Israel to focus its defense on the Northern front.) But to suggest that both Egypt and Syria (along with the rest of the Arab nations) did not seek Israel's destruction... well, that just denies reality.
Maybe you should write your own encyclopedia, though. One in which the Arab states repeatedly pressed an arrogant Israel to live together peacefully, only to be dragged into war by the belligerent Zionist entity. I'm sure you'll find plenty of eager readers here at the Cafe.
February 28, 2010 10:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oops. I meant Assad.
February 28, 2010 10:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
AG: "Look, I'll accept that Sadat's immediate tactical aim in initiating the war was more limited than the destruction of Israel "
Oh, pllllllllllllllllease.
Sadat's only STRATEGIC aim in initiating the war was to shake some f**king commonsense into Golda Meir.
Jarring produced a plan that would see Egypt get back the Sinai in return for Israel getting a peace treaty. Sadat said "yes", and Meir told him to piss off.
From that point on a war was inevitable, precisely because nothing OTHER than a war was ever going to shake Golda Meir free of her hubris.
AG: "As for Sadat [Assad], I'm not so sanguine, although he too must have been aware that such an outcome was unlikely."
You can be as sanguine as you like, but nothing can hide the fact that the Syrians launched an attack to PUSH THE IDF OUT OF SYRIAN TERRITORY, and when they were presented with an opportunity to push *beyond* that point they did not take up that opportunity.
Fer' crying out loud! Israel had nukes, and neither Sadat and Assad was in any way stupid.
They knew the zionist mindset as well as anyone; better, indeed, than the zionists themselves.
There is simply no way they would have launched themselves into Israel, for the simple reason that IF that ever happened THEN the Israeli leadership was more than paranoid enough to to respond by using those nukes on Cairo and Damascus.
AG: "One in which the Arab states repeatedly pressed an arrogant Israel to live together peacefully, only to be dragged into war by the belligerent Zionist entity."
ISRAEL WAS OCCUPYING THEIR TERRITORY, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
You seem to keep forgetting that salient little fact, and BECAUSE you keep forgetting that you can keep ascribing the wrong motives to the wrong people.
Israel was occupying their territory, they wanted that territory back, and they knew - they KNEW - that in the early 1970's Israel was not the least bit interested because (and, again, you keep forgetting this) it was far, far, far too busy colonizing both the Sinai and the Golan to be payin any attention to anything other than its own navel.
March 1, 2010 12:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
RE: "Not even the 3,000 dead -- and their grieving wives, children, parents, and siblings -- had an impact on a mentality that held that more land meant more security." - M.J.
SEE: Fear of peace will be the death of Israel, By Bradley Burston, 02/03/10
(EXCERPT) …The thrust of the piece, which Commentary Editor John Podhoretz understandably calls “groundbreaking,” is that Israel’s international standing has plummeted to an unprecedented low – and the number of Palestinians killed by Israel has concurrently soared – specifically because of Israel’s having done much too much for peace.
“The answer is unpleasant to contemplate, but the mounting evidence makes it inescapable,” she writes. “It was Israel’s very willingness to make concessions for the sake of peace that has produced its current near-pariah status.”
The essay has the seamless, compellingly elegant, hyper-lucid, parallel universe logic of a hallucination* – or a settlement rooted in the craw of the West Bank. Until I read it, it was difficult for me to comprehend the current runaway-freight recklessness of Israeli authorities and a certain segment of the hard right, bolstered by shady funding from abroad….
* my emphasis, as this is one of the best things I have read in a long, long time!
SOURCE – http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1147257.html
Loving the column “a place in hell” by Bradley Burston – http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=54391629611
February 26, 2010 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why are you always citing someone else in your comments ,
In all of your comments you always bring some articles from "Haaretz" - I understand that it confirms your anti-Israel bias daily, but try to read something else?! and be more creative
Try yo write something by yourself!
February 26, 2010 7:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Strictly as a matter of literary criticism, Dr. Bones, does not one really have to agree that Ha'Aretz is a pretty tame and wimpy mush of pottage?
I betcha Mr. Poster would like this spicier dish much better. And there's plenty more where that came from.
Smacznego!
February 27, 2010 7:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
You seem to have a problem with hearing the truth.
February 28, 2010 5:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
the Egyptians crossed the canal, wiped out the Israeli defenders, and -- with Syrian assistance -- came close to defeating Israel itself.
I don't know which History book MJ read ,
But at the 23 day of Yom-Kippur war , The IDF was 101 KM from Cairo , 30 Kilometers from damascus - ALL The Egyptian army was surrounded from all directions - Getting his water and food by permission of the I.D.F through the red cross /UN -
The I.D.F tanks drive across the main highway to Cairo like a tourists bus , All of the Suez canal was captured and the IDF keep moving
On the north front :
The I.D.F artillery cannons start to pound the suburbs of Damascus , All the army Command centers of the Egyptian and the Syrians were bombarded by the IDF , The ARABS lost about 20,000 soldiers , thousands of the newest Soviet tank and state of the art aircraft - That will be used later by Americans and their fight against the USSR .
In the first day (Yom-Kippur - the holiest day for Jews when everybody fasting) of the war
There were only 170 I.D.F tanks (Old ones) against 1700 soviets tanks (for the first time with night vision - infra red)
In the Sinai peninsula - all of I.D.F bases across the Suez canal (BAR-LEV line) were almost empty due to the holiday - there were thousands of Egyptians tanks and anti Aircraft missiles against only hundreds of the IDF .
The only thing that saved the Arabs was the Soviet threats against the USA to End the War - Without this threat , The reality of today will be different
February 26, 2010 5:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
"But at the 23 day of Yom-Kippur war , The IDF was 101 KM from Cairo , 30 Kilometers from damascus - ALL The Egyptian army was surrounded from all directions"
No, the Egyptian 3rd army was surrounded, not the entire Egytian force.
And, no, the IDF could not dash 101km to Cairo because Nixon said that the moment they did he was turning the spigot off.
That would have turned the way into a long grind, and Israel was certain to lose such a war.
"The I.D.F tanks drive across the main highway to Cairo like a tourists bus , All of the Suez canal was captured and the IDF keep moving"
Simply untrue. The war ended with the Egyptian army and the IDF both on the "wrong" side of the canal.
It did not end with the IDF is complete control of the canal.
"The I.D.F artillery cannons start to pound the suburbs of Damascus ,"
Yeah, using the ammo that Nixon supplied, as MJ mentioned but you ignore.
I'll also point out that Assad was outraged when Sadat accepted the ceasefire, precisely because he had lined up the Syrian army to attack the very exposed flank of that IDF force i.e. he was preparing to do to the IDF when Sharon had done to the Egyptian 3rd army.
February 26, 2010 6:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
"No, the Egyptian 3rd army was surrounded, not the entire Egyptian force"
well, the Egyptian 3rd army was the "Egyptian army themselves" or what left from him , after the Arabs take off their army shoes and run away in the desert (As my father saw - he also mention that the soldiers themselves were drugged) - the only fighting force left for the Egyptians were the 3rd army
It did not end with the IDF is complete control of the canal.
Simply untrue. The war ended with the Egyptian army and the IDF both on the "wrong" side of the canal.
Wrong !
The Egyptian army only succeed in the first 3 days of the war to be just 10 km inside Israel Sinai peninsula ,
At the end of the war - the IDF conquer all of the Suez canal and start to move on With full-force to Cairo - As i Said only the soviets threats against USA stop this !
Yeah, using the ammo that Nixon supplied, as MJ mentioned but you ignore.
The only reason why the Americans (be sure not because of love) start to help Israel is Because Israel was pushed to the corner and some say that in the first 3 days : for the first time Israel let their nuclear missiles to get a tan!
February 26, 2010 6:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
c9dw2rm8: "At the end of the war - the IDF conquer all of the Suez canal and start to move on With full-force to Cairo"
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/1973_sinai_war_maps2.jpg
You, my friend, are an ill-informed idiot.
All of the canal north of Ismaili was still in Egyptian hands, and all of the canal south was in Israeli hands.
The idea that from that position the IDF could have diven off to Cairo is as fancifull as claiming that the Egyptian forces north of Ismaili could have launched themselves against Tel Aviv.
February 28, 2010 4:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'll also point out that Assad was outraged when Sadat accepted the ceasefire, precisely because he had lined up the Syrian army to attack the very exposed flank of that IDF force i.e. he was preparing to do to the IDF when Sharon had done to the Egyptian 3rd army.
You are referring to the Arabs as a great strategist and warriors - sorry if it's sound arrogant BUT they are not !! Maybe they were only one time in the past during SALAH-ADIN era but the Modern days Arabs are just warriors in their Ali-Baba Arabia fantasies and fairy tales
February 26, 2010 6:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is not, Dr. Bones, as if General Sadát has been praised too highly, only that both Hyperzionists and more normal folks alike are determined to praise him amiss.
On the military side, the Wingnut City view, as ably presented here, is quite right, but then the W.C. line in general strikes me as ill thought-out: if it is really the case that "Modern days Arabs are just warriors in their Ali-Baba Arabia fantasies and fairy tales," one can scarcely score the pols and violence pros of the Tel ’Avîv government many points for keeping their natives and their natives’ neighbors in check.[1]
Meanwhile, over on J. Street, Gen. Sadát gets sadly confused with Mahatma Gandhi, or at least with Mr. Nice Guy. On that basis his true merit becomes invisible.
In fact he was quite as nasty as Richelieu and Talleyrand and Bismarck were, but also quite as talented as they in their own specialty. Maybe he was even better, if we grade on the curve and consider what a weak hand a dictator of Egypt must have to play the Great Game with. Why, sir, I suspect Gen. Sadát was nearly as good as great gamesmanship as Herr Prof. Dr. Kissinger of H*rv*rd thinks Henry Kissinger is! [2]
Healthy days.
___
[1] "If he [Dryden] ... describes the enemy as 'Vast bulks which little souls but ill supply,' then we have every right to tell him that a nation of reasonable men, not to say men of courage and honour, are very ill-celebrated by the insinuation that their enemies are lubbers." Lewis, C. S., "Shelly, Dryden and Mr. Eliot"
[2] Compare and contrast the one gettin’ out of Indochina in 1975 with tail between legs, the other pretty much losing the 1973 war but then winning the subsequent ‘peace’ in a really astounding way. Why, maybe even if we do NOT grade on a curve . . . !
February 27, 2010 8:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Too bad we can't ask Sharon what he thinks of Hassan Nasrallah.
;~{)
Or, that anon guy at the Army War College who "shocked" many when he suggested that it would be a good thing if the Georgian Army were trained to fight like Hezbollah.
(The (ret) IDFers who were contracted for the task fell short in that their Georgian trainees threw down their weapons and ran away during that demented confrontation with Putin.)
Do you understand why underestimating your enemy is a tactically & strategically stupid weakness?
February 28, 2010 2:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
c9dw2rm8: "You are referring to the Arabs as a great strategist and warriors - sorry if it's sound arrogant BUT they are not !!"
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/1973_Yom_Kippur_War_-_Golan_heights_theater.jpg
Look at that map on the right, c9dw2rm8.
No, I mean it: actually LOOK at that map.
The IDF is sticking out like a boil on your bum, and it was ALREADY stopped in its tracks i.e. it wasn't going anywhere.
Assad had 30,000 fresh Iraqi troops at his disposal, and he still had his own Syrian forces intact, because they had pulled back during the IDF advance - i.e. they had not been overrun - and they had been reequipped with tanks from the soviets.
That bulge was a disaster waiting to happen, and Assad was preparing to lance it when news came that Sadat had agreed to a ceasefire.
February 28, 2010 4:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
An excellent, insightful although article. I venture to strong disagree with the common use of "Munich" as short hand for short-sighted appeasement. England was woefully unprepared for war at the time and would have been crushed if they had gone to war then. Regardless of whether Chamberlain truely thought he was buying peace, most military historians now think that it was a good move that bought vital time that England used to good effect.
February 26, 2010 5:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
General Eisenhower calls them the crucifiers of the American people in clear terms.
February 26, 2010 6:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
He wrote that before 1967 Israel would have accepted the deal in a New York minute. But in 1971, Israel was already intoxicated with the idea of holding the occupied territories. That was better than peace. As Prime Minister Golda Meir said, "we never had it so good."
Believe it or Not , But only After the 67 Victory, Israel was the most admired state in the World - Lot's of current Europeans leaders and politicians do their "Kibbutz service" at those times
February 26, 2010 7:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Israel responded to Sadat's offer with counter offers, but Egypt would not receive them directly, they had to come through third parties. This mired things down, and the competing Rogers plan from the US was direct and captured the attention of the Israelis.
The Suez Canal is a decent military barrier and the Sadat plan to take over both sides would logically cause the Israelis to wonder if the purpose was to make an Egyptian attack easier and quicker. For all of these reasons, the Israeli response couldn't be quick, and required face-to-face negotiations that weren't offered.
Perhaps if Sadat could have negotiated directly, and if Watergate hadn't grown as an issue, not to mention the US focus on Vietnam, things could have turned out differently.
Would Sadat have been murdered even earlier if there was an agreement in 1971 or 72? Who would have taken over and what would have happened? None of us can know.
Of course, none of this means the doves are always right, as Rosenberg seems to be saying. Were the doves right that Saddam should stay in power after the First Gulf War? That South Korea should be disarmed in 1949? That the US should not respond to the invasion of Manchuria in 1933? That Osama bin Laden should not have been killed during the Clinton administration?
Everybody makes mistakes, but Rosenberg is touting the idea that being a dove means being right, which is absurd.
February 27, 2010 3:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Esspresso: "Israel responded to Sadat's offer with counter offers,"
That wouldn't be Dayan's "better to keep Sharm el Sheik without peace than to have peace without Sharm el Sheik", would it, esspresso?
The Israelis presented NO "counter-offer" to Sadat, for the simple reason that Sadat was responding **to** the Jarring Plan.
Jarring presented that plan, Sadat said "yes", and Golda Meir responding with arrogant scorn, not diplomacy.
I understand that a zionist will often mistake arrogant scorn for diplomacy - goodness knows but it's the only thing Avigdor Lieberman understands - but, so sorry, they are not one and the same thing.
February 28, 2010 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Were the doves right that Saddam should stay in power after the First Gulf War? "
You mean we should have gone in and messed things up earlier?
February 28, 2010 3:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
So you’re bored at home and can’t think of a thing to do? Here are a few things that you could do to cure the “bored bored bored” syndrome!
Bored at Home? How to Cure Boredom
August 24, 2010 8:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's interesting portfolio and I am always looking for this kind of stuff. I hope you will be adding more in future. Thanks for sharing
20th Birthday Wishes
March 23, 2011 9:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you for another great article
Best regards, Katya, CEO of facebook, windows 2008 iscsi mpio
March 24, 2011 9:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Si vous etes interesses par le dossier, ou desirez en savoir plus, contactez-moi par mail, et je vous mettrai en contact.
Best regards,Jane, CEO of high availability computing
April 27, 2011 2:52 AM | Reply | Permalink