No, The Arabs Don't Want The Jews Dead
Andrew Sullivan quotes a "reader" who addresses the charge that Arabs and Iranians only want the Jews dead and care not an iota for their own people. I'm quoting this anonymous "reader" in full because he simply blows the argument out of the water.
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If the Iranian Republic truly believed that wiping Israel off the face of the Earth were "righteous and beautiful", that Israel's destruction was a goal of ultimate primacy before even the lives of the Iranian people, then the Ayatollahs would have made a peace with Saddam Hussein in the 80's and 90's, when he was the most influential supporter of militant Palestinian groups, and marched their combined armies through the contiguous bridge of the Iran-Iraq-Syria alliance to crush the hated Jewish enemy. Instead, the Iranians spent the 80's and 90's vying with Mr. Hussein for regional supremacy, attempting to play Iran's historical role (a role they have played off and on since before monotheism existed) as arbiter of politics and culture in the Fertile Crescent.
If the leaders of Hamas were only concerned with killing Israelis, with training suicide-bombers and sending them out to destroy shopping centers, then they'd dedicate the majority of their funding to that purpose. Instead, they build and operate hospitals, schools, soup kitchens, car pools, cell services, and all the other goods, public and private, that organizations without an explicit military arm would provide for the Palestinians if any building was allowed to stay standing long enough to house them. All those doctors and teachers and cooks and bureaucrats who are part of Hamas must be pretty poor members, failing to murder Israelis everyday as they do; one wonders how some of them ever managed to rise to positions of authority without ever having killed an Israeli at all in an organization only dedicated to military objectives.
Extreme? Yes. Intransigent? Yes. Far too violent and stubborn for their own good, or their people's good? Yes. But willing to watch the Palestinian people destroyed utterly to achieve the destruction of Israel? Indifferent to Palestinian suffering? Hardly. If that were the case, why negotiate cease-fire agreements? Why capture Israeli soldiers explicitly to extract concessions and revenues that they cannot extract from the Israelis at the negotiating table? That organization exists precisely because of Palestinian suffering; it fights specifically to alleviate that suffering, as wrong-headed as that is, but desperation and rage are not known for instilling logic.
And as for the "right to live" line, one could just as easily say that Israel could have peace tomorrow if they recognized a Palestinian right to return. That position is not more politically viable than it would be for Hamas, as the duly elected government of the Palestinian authority, to lay down the gun without a settlement freeze or the territorial concessions needed to make a Palestinian state viable. If Israel cannot even bring itself to give these concessions to the generally peaceful Palestinians of the West Bank; if Israel cannot even bring itself to stop settlements from being built in the West Bank, then what reason could Hamas possibly have for thinking that unilaterally forsaking the fight would lead to a real, respected sovereignty in Gaza?
This claim that Israel's enemies are irrational, blood-thirsty, slavering man-beasts, unable to contain their lust for spilling Jewish blood in the name of Allah is, quite simply, not supported by the behavior of either regime, or of Syria, for that matter, which has always coolly and calmly steered for that course most likely to insure its continued existence and indispensability. If either were indifferent to destruction, so long as Israel were destroyed, then they would have risked global wrath and war striking at Israel and illegal Israeli settlements long ago. Instead of spending decades jockeying for internal or regional supremacy they would have made the deals necessary to press genocide with heedless fanaticism, and would be throwing themselves on the walls of Jerusalem, right this very minute, with hatred in their eyes and paradise on their lips.
Of course this never has, and never will, happen. Israel's enemies aren't monsters anymore than they are caricatures; they are men, despicable men largely, but still men, and with all the concerns and desire to live that comes with that.
And Israel, it should be pointed out, has its own fair share of despicable men, just as intractable, just as hateful of peace as any Hamas bomber or Revolutionary Guard thug. Perhaps it would be easier for Israel if they WERE beasts and the IDF could simply sit atop their walls with flame-throwers and machine guns slaughtering them as they threw themselves at the interloper in a blind rage. But men are patient, and men plan, and in the end, you have to sit down and deal with them or they'll never go away. The longer Israel and the defenders of her most fanatical citizens put that off, the heavier the toll of that final squaring will be.
Sounds about right.
February 13, 2010 7:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
The irony is not lost. Sullivan recently patted himself on the back for not retreating in response to Wieseltier's unfair charge of anti-Semitism...and then Sulivan posted one of the most racist anti-Arab screeds imaginable. Equal time? A honest debate? Yeah, right.
The takeaway: the charge of anti-Semitism was effective.
February 15, 2010 10:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
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January 12, 2011 7:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
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March 27, 2011 9:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Actually it's patently ridiculous.
First of all, there's MJ Rosenberg's characterization of his opponents' arguments, which is that they claim that "Arabs and Iranians only want the Jews dead and care not an iota for their own people."
I realize that it's often rhetorically effective to make a gross caricature of what your opponents are saying, but the fact is that few people claim that Arabs and Iranians "only" want the Jews dead and care "not an iota" for their own people. Maybe a few excitable types looking to make headlines, but not serious analysts. Rather, the argument is that the desire to bring harm to Israel and/or Jews is strong enough that it displaces other priorities that would normally be present in other, healthier societies.
The most obvious ways this happens is that for decades Arab governments made the claim that true democracy is impossible because of the "threat" from Israel.
Then there's this:
Isn't this more or less what just happened last year in Gaza? The society in Gaza may not have been destroyed "utterly", but it was pretty damned close. And for what? So they could have the satisfaction of sending rockets into Israel? And if they were so sensitive to Palestinian suffering, why locate the rocket launchers in the middle of dense urban neighborhoods, where retaliation is sure to inflict more pain than necessary on innocent civilians.
This makes no sense. Because they are willing to engage in a tactical ceasefire, that means they are not dedicated to Israel's destruction? Why does that follow?
Ah, that old chestnut. It is desperation and rage that requires Hamas to advocate the destruction of Israel in its very charter. That requires them to sabotage and undermine every tentative step towards peace negotiations. That requires them to parade through the streets with children dressed in suicide bomber belts.
Ask yourself this question: if through some mechanism the Arabs had the clear opportunity to destroy Israel, does anyone doubt that the vast majority would leap at the chance? Of course different elements of Arab society would pay different levels of cost to achieve that end. Some would do it at any cost while some would do it only if the cost were minimal. But the vast majority would do it if the option were available to them. Remember that for the first 25 years of Israel's existence, the Arabs tried and tried. The main thing that stopped them then is the main thing that stops them now - the deterrent provided by the IDF and the resilience and innovation of Israeli society.
February 16, 2010 11:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for your patience and sorry for the inconvenience!
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December 17, 2010 5:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Its accepted to say that Arabs and Iranians only live to kill Jews.
You get promotions in the American media for being effective with it.
Just ask glen beck.
But of course anyone who says Jews live to kill Arabs or Iranians must be anti-semetic.
Of course the truth is closer to how you describe it.
Yet I wonder what the level of support would be for those two arguments if the American people were aware of the realities in the middle east.
Though I must admit I never underestimate the American peoples love of "precision bombing".
February 13, 2010 9:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Germans weren't suicidal either.
Nor were most Germans determined to exterminate the Jews although many were quite willing to look away.
If the Palestinian definition of a viable state is one capable of contesting militarily with Israel the Holocaust will have to be forgotten before Israel will be willing to co-operate in the construction of such a state.
This is simply a given of human nature the same way gravity is a law of nature. Whether it is right or wrong is of little consequence because it highly unlikely to change and any attempt to 'solve' the Mideast problem which does not take this into account is doomed to failure.
If you were the Israelis, whom would you trust and why?
February 13, 2010 9:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with your
but not because of the Holocaust. If there had been no Holocaust the Israelis would live in a state of existential fear. Just look at our own willingness to junk such centuries old values as the right to a fair trial-because we are terrified of a couple of hundred religious fanatics hiding in caves in Waziristan.And if I were an Israeli I'd only trust the IDF
But I'd be wrong.
If you think of someone as your enemy long enough,
he becomes your enemy.It's a self fulfilling fear. And sooner or later , maybe in decades, maybe centuries that existential Israeli fear will be realized in an attack from the enemy which it has created
February 14, 2010 12:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed that the Israelis' best move now and for decades is to treat their neighbors as gently as possible. That said, what, in your estimation should be their first move now?
My feeling has been that the Palestinians have been greatly harmed by latching onto false hope that the Israelis can be forced by any one to accept a 'settlement' that the Israelis believe puts them at existential risk for either physical or cultural survival.
February 14, 2010 12:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
The US should commit to stationing troops there(purely for defense against invasion) as we have in Korea for 50 years as part of some sort of settlement, maybe one that looks something like Taba.
As long as they feel understandable existential fear the Israelis will of course rely on their own overwhelming force . And feel they must use it from time to time to be credible . Which always creates a new generation of willing 20 year old martyrs,who regenerate the Israelis understandable fear .etc etc
Pace the Clever Bulldog , Of course there will always be Palestinians who hate the Israelis. The optimistic prospect is that 100 years from now the majority of them will feel the way most Irish feel about the Brits -350 years after the battle of the Boyne- and only a declining minority will feel the way the IRA do.
In Mitchell's Northern Ireland negotiations they used the phrase "maybe we all have to jump together".
Maybe that's the second move.
Who could have imagined 10 years ago that two terrorists , with blood on their hands , like Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley would come to be known as the "chuckle brothers"?
Change is possible.
February 14, 2010 8:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
That might help but this is where the Holocaust history kicks in. Prior to that, enough trust might have existed for this to be acceptable for the Israelis. After that, and the history of indifference surrounding it, why would enough trust exist?
Also no such force could prevent the rocket tossing which continues the cycle.
February 14, 2010 10:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Whatever the past, life goes on. The Holocaust was unique. But there are analogs.
India had millions of communal killings in 1947; then a series of wars with Pakistan ; and assaults such as Mumbai . And yet the country works. Muslims and Hindus (and many others) live together despite occasional outbreaks of communal violence. Like whites here with blacks despite past lynchings and race riots.And with native americans despite Wounded Knee and the Trail of Tears.
It's horrible to undergo a 9/ll ,or a Mumbai, or Gazan rockets. Or like the British to live with German buzz bombs and IRA pub bombings. But people do. And then get on with their day to day contacts with Muslims, Germans or the Irish.
But no one can behave constructively while living with the continuing possibility of being wiped out. Of Arab tanks reaching the Mediterranean in 36 hours as Sharon demonstrated from his helicopter. Which is why I believe Israel needs boots on the ground, not a piece of paper.
But remove that existential threat and Israel becomes just another country. Dealing with great problems. Yes. Join the club.
Objectively, the memory of the horrible acts of European Christians during the Holocaust is irrelevant with respect to Israel's pursuing peace with the Palestians,
February 14, 2010 12:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's not about the Holocaust. An American military presence would impair the expansion of Israeli colonies on Palestinain land.
February 15, 2010 10:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
the right wing jewish psyche can only function properly if there is a perceived new hitler or if there is perceived anti-semitism. if there is no hitler or anti-semitism, that psyche at the subconscious level can't make sense of reality. this type of behavior is common when a psyche has been traumatized.
moreover, out of this traumatized psyche the label of anti-semitism and the label of the new hitler is secondarily used to advance a political-territorial agenda.
here is a video of an ex-mossad agent talking about the political use of the anti-semite label.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e62_1241686493
February 13, 2010 10:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Excellent. I would have add, though, that we're talking about trauma of 65 years ago, and to keep the trauma raw and effective all this time, there are other factors at work. The main element, I think, are political advantages both of instilling paranoia in a population with members that have suffered the trauma, while peddling guilty alarm to everyone else. One of the reasons the West has been so indulgent of Israel throughout its history of disgraceful behavior in the region is because of Holocaust guilt as perpetrator, accomplice and unsympathetic witness. The world has changed. Nowhere on earth are Jews imperiled. But to maintain the status quo, we're constantly told it's always 1939. The Palestinians are our conveniently alien scapegoats. Collectively, today, we bear no responsibilty for the Holocaust; we are separated from this unique catastrophe by time and space. We do, however, for the subjugation of the Palestinians.
February 14, 2010 1:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
From your comments about jews & Israel
Probably you are An Muslim / Arab OR worst KKK member in the closet
February 15, 2010 3:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
The comment above refer to BluePearl
February 15, 2010 3:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
speaking of the KKK, the jewish KKK has been doing progroms since 1948. israel is transforming itself into a country with institution-based racism.
whether committed by jews, muslims, christians, or atheist communists, progroms show the degeneration of human consciousness to below animal level. it is against the good.
February 15, 2010 9:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Why would you engage someone who responds to your post by trying to "delegitimize" your ideas by calling you s Muslim? As if, being a Muslim means you can't be trusted.
You might as well debate your pet hamster.
February 15, 2010 10:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
why?
jesus and muhammad have compassion for pet hamsters, big time.
February 15, 2010 11:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
The Squeak shall inherit the Earth?
February 15, 2010 1:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your basic premise is just plain wrong. I know several Palestinians and Arabs. They all want to destroy Israel, they hope to see every last Israeli dead. Remember how they danced in the streets after 9/11? They hate us too. Walk down the streets in Gaza, see how you fare. Moderates are not in the majority. Now, Iranian President Ammadinejad says the same thing, the difference being he is trying to build the bomb. Israel would have to be suicidal to not be concerned about this to the point of preemptively attacking them to prevent it.
February 14, 2010 7:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
You "know" several Palestinians and Arabs. Bullshit.
February 14, 2010 10:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, I know several Palestinians, several Lebanese, a couple Iranians, an Egyptian, and a lot of Indians, plus numerous other nationalities. I was an engineer for 20 years and traveled a lot.
February 14, 2010 12:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are f*cking liar.
February 15, 2010 10:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
I know several Muslims and Iranians as well. Not a single one wants to kill Israelis or Americans. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence.
We need a sane foreign policy in America and continuing to enable the Israeli paranoia in that region of the world is not sane.
I thought you were a staunch libertarian. A little consistency would be nice.
February 15, 2010 7:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually it was Netanyahu who was quoted in the New York Times on 9/12/01 calling the attacks a good thing. You just got confused.
February 14, 2010 8:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't wish to speak ill of someone in his medical state but I recall Sharon saying 'now you know how we feel'
I no more believd that Sharon was purely evil than I believed Arafat was. Or Gerry Adams or Jomo Kenyatta. In bad situations leaders alwasy do bad things.
February 14, 2010 8:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
No idiot, I saw the video of them dancing in the streets, carrying model planes and celebrating. As usual you are wrong, and too stupid to know how to use the reply button.
February 14, 2010 9:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
You're right. Gazan women danced in the streets just as in 1945 we celebrated Hiroshima. That's what people do, they unthinkingly celebrate when their opponent is defeated.
Orham Pamuk wrote in the NYR a few weeks later describing his gardner, jubilant when the news appeared on Turkish TV. An hour later he was ashamed of himself.
February 14, 2010 9:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Liar Bullsh-t needs to watch Ken Burns history of WWII. We cheered alot while we were burning thousands of Japanese civilians to death. I also recommend the book, "A Torch to the Enemy" about the fire-bombing of Japan.
Ironically, our military was a lot more careful while bombing Germany. Unlike the RAF, American planners were very uncomfortable bombing German civilian areas...
PBS recently ran a program on our air campaign against Germany on "The American Experience."
February 15, 2010 10:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Prick a Jew
Arab
German
American
Japanese
doth he not bleed ?
In any conflict each side behaves horribly to its opponent and then reacts with sincere outrage when that opponent responds by doing something similar in return.. There's no one, no country , no ethnic group, who's better,or worse.
In every case they'll go on forever doing horrible things to one another, and feeling completely justified, until someone makes them stop.
February 15, 2010 12:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good points.
February 15, 2010 1:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
beware of people who always see evil outside of themselves.
February 15, 2010 2:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
They are generally called compassionate conservatives.
February 15, 2010 5:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
How convenient that they had model airplanes to dance with! I know I certainly own a huge stash of model airplanes for just such occasions. Doesn't everyone?
February 14, 2010 10:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
WOW! That is your response? REally? You think it is impossible to make a paper mache model of a plane, or make one out of cardboard? Considering they had a day or so to do it? I am just stunned at your stupidity.
February 14, 2010 12:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
No more so than we are by yours, much more frequent (and odious) as it is.
February 14, 2010 12:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, The Arabs Don't Want The Jews Dead
They just want them deep in the sea
ONLY AN IDIOT will buy your BS
IN CONTRARY to you I'm Living with Arabs and in the middle east for the last 25 years
And conclusion - The Arabs/Muslims will never accept "Infidels" In the area - Their beloved Muhammad Teach them (Famous phrase that Muslims use : "The Muhammad religion by sword"
Another thing which I eared from Muslim Palestinian tell to a Christian arab - it was In Hebron during my army service
The little Muslim kid (12 years old) told the christian kid :
"After Saturday comes Sunday" = After they will handle the Jews (Saturday) , they will handle the Muslims !
Now , all the rats will come out from their holes and will call Islamphob - Yes , I'm Islamophob - it's natural and a good instinct to be afraid from ppl who stretch suicide belts to 6 years old kids and responsible to 99% of terror attacks in the world !
February 14, 2010 11:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
I thought they danced on the roof when the Scuds fell on Tel Aviv in 1991.
They are some dancers!
Please post the videos.
February 14, 2010 11:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
They also danced during 9/11 - giving sweets to their kids in east Jerusalem,west bank , Gaza !
Islam is not religion - It's a death cult invented by A caravan robber and murderer!
here are some of the crimes of muhammad:
1. had sex with baby aisha
2. rob caravans
3. behead villagers after they surrender
4. murder the husband, then rape the wife on same night (Safiyya)
5. murder woman for writing poem he didn't like as she was nursing her baby
(Asma bint Marwan)
6. Take booty and slaves.
You think God would choose this man for prophet?
February 14, 2010 10:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's true that Palestinians danced in the streets on 9/11. But the Iranians held candlelight vigils. So to suggest that all Muslims are like that isn't exactly true.
February 16, 2010 6:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
During 1991 - the no 1 hit in arab world was :
"Ya Sadamm Ya Habib , udrub udrub Tel-Aviv"
Ask someone understand Arabic to translate that!
February 14, 2010 10:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
***Correction : ***
"After Saturday comes Sunday" = After they will handle the Jews (Saturday) , they will handle the Christians!
February 14, 2010 1:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
***Correction : ***
"After Saturday comes Sunday" = After they will handle the Jews (Saturday) , they will handle the Christians!
February 14, 2010 1:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
I suppose one might counter that if AIPAC (and the many mainstream US "Mideast commentators" and Capitol Hill politicians who endlessly spout AIPAC talking points) "cared not an iota" for the interests of the US in the region, and were instead "concerned" mainly with defending the eternal rights of fanatical Israeli settlers to bulldoze and take over any land they wanted in the West Bank, and carried out such defense using any line of deceitful propaganda they could scrounge up, then this anti-American lobby would do its damnedest to torpedo any land-for-peace initiative between Israelis and Arabs.
Of course, such torpedoing has in reality been the mainstay of AIPAC for many years. In light of such entrenched -albeit sugar-coated- extremism, small wonder that a dominant mentality has become "never again" by means of this time having "big lie" techniques (of which crude demonizing of millions of people is not the most egregious example) more clever and incessant than the "other side."
February 14, 2010 1:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think c9dw2rm8 is a sock puppet for some anti-Israel propagandist. He can't write, can't spell, makes no sense (is fluent in no language) and makes the pro-Israel side look like morons.
Anyone who thinks the hasbaraniks would utilize him is nuts.
My guess is that c9dw2rm8 is a Hamas supporter. Or, because they tend to be better at this kind of trick, Hezbollah.
February 15, 2010 10:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
And he has poor judgment. Didn't he tell us that he has Arab Christian and Muslim roommates? Who would share a room with people whose sole purpose in life is killing you?
February 15, 2010 10:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Idiot , there is a different between my political views to my individual views on ppl!
One on One with ppl - I put my political views in the side - they are my roommates - I didn't choose them , The university choose (Multiculturalism BS) them for me - they are good guys - and we never talk politics !
February 15, 2010 11:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
What are you, Cybil?
Your political views are based your personal views. There is no distinction.
Politicians adopt public views for political reasons. But you are not speaking for a government, you are speaking for yourself.
You don't get to post your views and then state, "Although I sound like a total racist douche right now, in my personal life, I disagree with everything I'm writing."
February 15, 2010 1:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh come on, MB. Don't be so prejudiced against illiterate hypocrites. He's just trying to say that some of his best friends are non-Jews. Some is better than none, and even the longest journey has to start with single steps.
February 16, 2010 3:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow. And all my friends are Black.....haven't we all heard that rationalization before?
February 17, 2010 11:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think your irony detection switch may need adjusting, MB :) !
February 19, 2010 6:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
MJ roseneberg until I came was get use to the regular idiots here with their anti-Israel orgy
Now , I came and you can't argue with me - I'm not using your regular propaganda - Citing Gideon Levi,Goldstone and all the other KAPPOS
I always bring facts !
MJ ,don't be racist - not all Arabs/Hamasniks/Hizablonim can't write, can't spell, makes no sense - some of them are good in English.
February 15, 2010 11:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm torn between wondering if you are kidding and wondering if you're right. But I think you underestimate the amount of stupidity on the Israeli side. It's not like the anti-semites have all the mouth-breathers.
February 15, 2010 5:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Or even the majority of them. Have you actually listened to Avigdor Lieberman?
February 15, 2010 5:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's actually the opposite.
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2008/04/hamas-evolves-in-right-direction-or.html
February 15, 2010 12:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hamas wants to go to Davos too. Beware the inevitable installation of gold taps in Haniyeh's private bathroom.
(Areference to a Robert Fisk article about a Fatah official's office in Gaza.)
February 15, 2010 1:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Corrupt, illegitimate leaders throughout the Middle East (often installed and/or supported by the good ol' US of A, it must be said) have killed and abused more Arabs by far than have "the Jews." It is those leaders who benefit most from cultivating hatred of Jews, Israel, and the West. Why are the great-grandchildren of Jewish 1948 refugees now citizens of a democracy, while the great-grandchildren of Arab 1948 refugees (the numbers were roughly similar) remain sequestered in unspeakable misery, learning from birth that it is the fault of "the Jews?"
CUI BONO, CUI BONO, CUI BONO?
February 15, 2010 1:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Stupid post. Because if the Arab had accommodated Palestinian refugees as you suggest, then they would no longer be refugees--or have a claim to their homeland.
Cui bono? Certainly, Israel. They are occupying a lot of stolen land.
This is the intellectual endpont of Gun Zionism. It is the morality of a burglar who blames the home owner for not having enough locks.
February 15, 2010 5:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
You prove my point. Wouldn't the fourth and fifth generations of the Palestinian diaspora be better off if they were just like the Jewish refugees, once victims of expulsion and forced relocation from all over the Middle East, who are no longer refugees although they also gave up hope of returning to their homes.
And just how does Israel benefit from the perpetual maintenance of a brutalized population sworn to drive "the Jews" from land that has had many occupants over the centuries but has been ruled since antiquity by distant hegemons.
February 15, 2010 5:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your comment is totally illogical. Israel benefits because it stole the land...or have you not noticed that there is a country called "Israel" and there is only a Palestinian Authority, not a State of Palestine.
If the Palestinians had followed your advice, they would be still be stateless, scattered throughout the Arab world as minorities in every country. They would have had the privilege of being...Kurds....and how is that working out for the Kurds?
Your hasbara is really second-rate.
February 15, 2010 6:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, but I don't really see the point. So, Arab leaders are not so irrationally opposed to Israel that they are willing to immolate their entire populations to hasten its demise? Is that supposed to be news? Fact is that they are sufficiently irrational that they would irresponsibly instigate two wars resulting in widespread devastation of their people (Lebanon 2006 and Gaza last year), then claim victory and continue the same provocations notwithstanding the carnage.
Meanwhile, the Pew Research Center's Global Attitudes Project just came out with some interesting polling numbers. Among other things, the polls found that "[m]ore than 90% of Egyptians, Jordanians, Lebanese and Palestinians express unfavorable views toward Jews. Only 35% of Israeli Arabs, however, express a negative opinion." Other notable results:
Read the full polling results here. http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1486/survey-muslim-nations-middle-east-political-leaders-hamas-hezbollah
February 15, 2010 8:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for posting the news of the new Pew poll.
February 15, 2010 11:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Fact is that they are sufficiently irrational that they would irresponsibly instigate two wars resulting in widespread devastation of their people (Lebanon 2006 and Gaza last year), then claim victory and continue the same provocations notwithstanding the carnage."
What "provocations" are you citing, counselor. Please be specific.
The acknowledged Israeli reality is that both "Operation Just Reward" and the Chanuka War were wars of choice, Armchair.
Why don't you know this?
You can bet that the Obama administration is hearing from all of the states in the region that Israel's current provocations are destabilizing and dangerous. The son of the matyr Rafiq Harriri, PM Saad Hariri is telling all and sundry about Israel's preparations for war....no one can pretend to be surprised next time. Across the board, from the friendlies to the unfriendlies, the messages are being relayed to the appropriate Western addresses.
Whether or not they are being heard is yet to be determined.
February 15, 2010 11:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Every time I drop by this dump it's the same thing over and over:
"Reigniting Violence: How Do Ceasefires End?"
Nancy Kanwisher of MIT ran the numbers.
"...a systematic pattern does exist: it is overwhelmingly Israel, not Palestine, that kills first following a lull. Indeed, it is virtually always Israel that kills first after a lull lasting more than a week."
None of this is news.
And remember this kids. The founding of Israel was "a necessary crime." That's the liberal [sic] Zionist's argument.
February 16, 2010 12:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
forgot to add the link.
Find it yourselves.
February 16, 2010 12:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
One can argue whether Israel's massive response in either situations was just, appropriate, proportionate, etc., but there really is no question they were provoked.
The Lebanon war began after Hezbollah launched a series of rocket attacks and a cross border raid killing three Israeli soldiers and capturing two (who were later returned dead). Here is the Washington Post:
As for Gaza, here is a timeline provided by Reuters of the events immediately preceding the assault:
No serious person can contend these wars were unprovoked. Avoidable? Perhaps. But certainly not without reason.
February 16, 2010 12:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Your timeline is incomplete. Israel broke the ceasefire in November and while it is true Hamas said it would not abide by the ceasefire, they also indicated a willingness to negotiate a new one that would include an end to the blockade (which is an act of war against Gaza in itself).
link
Who started any given conflict often depends on where one draws an arbitrary line, but Israel's violence and its provocations get much less attention in the American press.
February 16, 2010 12:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm in the process of reading the link you posted.
But I don't think the tit for tat back and forth is really productive here. The question is not whether one side or the other is blameless. There's enough violence to go around - and too often it does. But to state that there was no provocation is ridiculous. And the notion that Israel is solely responsible for the violence is a gross distortion. Oh, and if we are talking tit for tat, the 6 Palestinians killed by Israel in violation of the "truce" were planning attacks on Israelis.
For more info on rocket attacks, you might want to check this out.
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/ipc_e007.pdf
February 16, 2010 12:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
I do agree that determining who "starts" a conflict depends upon drawing lines that are sometimes arbitrary - though not so much in this case, in my opinion. I'll also agree that Israeli violence gets less attention in the American press - for a number of reasons, not necessarily malevolent.
February 16, 2010 1:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
In the case of Gaza Israel has kept them under a blockade for years, so that in itself is an act of war.
To me both sides bear blame for the war. Hamas should not have fired in December, Israel should not have fired in November, and Israel should have renegotiated a truce that involved lifting the blockade. Neither side is innocent. And both sides were guilty of war crimes (though Israel's were on a much larger scale).
February 16, 2010 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your ignorance seems strategic. I can't think of another excuse.
I tried this before and it wasn't let through:
"America's Hidden Role in Hamas' Rise to Power"
huffingtonpost.com/stephen-zunes/americas-hidden-role-in-h_b_155087.html
Johann Hari: "The true story behind this war is not the one Israel is telling"
independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-the-true-story-behind-this-war-is-not-the-one-israel-is-telling-1214981.html
Uri Avnery: "The calculations behind Israel’s slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza"
thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2009/01/02/the-calculations-behind-israela-8217-s-s#more1677
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804
The Gaza Bombshell
After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever.
Chris Hedges: A Gaza Diary
bintjbeil.com/articles/en/011001_hedges.html
AG please stop lying.
February 16, 2010 4:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
He's trying to find a way to reconcile his fundamental personal decency with the indecency of his support for Gun Zionism. It's tough.
February 17, 2010 11:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
No, he's trying to reconcile his desire to believe in his fundamental personal decency. "I know I'm a moral man so my arguments ipso facto must be moral.
Rationalists rationalize. A little empiricism is a dangerous thing.
February 17, 2010 1:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
The tale of "Operation Just Reward" is way more complex than the sketchy crap hasbara version that is sold to the gullible. If the past is precedent, American Zionists are supremely uninterested in the real story, even though the info comes from Israeli sources.
But it's also irrelevent to this claim of "provocations".
"continue the same provocations notwithstanding the carnage."
Again, what current "same provocations" by Hezb are you referring to, Armchair? Please be specific.
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The irony is not lost. Sullivan recently patted himself on the back for not retreating in response to Wieseltier's unfair charge of anti-Semitism...and then Sulivan posted one of the most racist anti-Arab screeds imaginable. Equal time.
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