Is Everybody Disappointed In Obama?
I think that President Obama's problems are not reflected in his 49% approval rate in the latest polls. Next week he'll be at 56% or 46%. Whatever. I don't put much stock in them.
But I do put stock in this. I do not know a single person who is not disappointed by Obama's first year in office. And the people I know represent Obama's base. Pretty much all of them supported him in the primaries. They worked like dogs during the general. And they took buses, cars and planes to be at his inauguration.
Today much of their enthusiasm is gone.
And the reason for their disappointment is that they wanted a fighter, someone who would implement campaign promises (at least the ones a President can do unilaterally like gays in the military) and challenge the right's lies. Instead they have a conciliator.
One friend said it best. "Would Sarah Palin and her minions be able to scream about the debt if Obama had made clear from day one who was responsible for it? Would they be able to yell about his 'dithering' on Afghanistan if he pointed out that Bush and Cheney's decision to fight in Iraq caused us to lose Afghanistan."
Why didn't Obama allow hearings on how we were lied and manipulated into Iraq and how Rumsfeld made the decision to let Osama slip away into Pakistan? Why do we never hear about how Bush converted Clinton's surplus into the worst deficit in history? Democrats kept winning for 20 years by referring to Hoover's depression. And yet Democrats today shrink from the idea of blaming the administration that give Clinton's surplus away to the ultra-rich?
Bottom line. Liberals want an administration that is the left wing equivalent of the Bush-Cheney administration, an administration that had principles and stuck to them (every one of them wrong) and knew the difference between friends and enemies. They are sick and tired of a White House being held hostage by the likes of Evan Bayh and the House bluedogs.
Today all the passion is on the right. At this rate, it's the right that will turn out in unprecedented numbers in 2010 and 2012.
How did this happen? Who is to blame? And who is going to turn this situation around before we are in Jimmy Carterland? We have the smartest, most decent President in our lifetimes. Are we going to blow this opportunity by allowing thugs and bigots to convince the American public that they, and not the Democrats, are on their side?
Michael Jackson said: "I'm a lover, not a fighter." In a President, we need the opposite.















I am not disappointed in Obama.
A. Would you want Sarah as VP looking to advance her narcisstic agenda to president by giving McCain a chocolate donut with sprinkles on it?
B. How about a Republican administration riding roughshod over a Democratic Congress? There would be more Vetoes than a Sons of Italy parade.
C. McCain fully intended to bomb Iran. He certainly would not have used diplomacy. How would that have helped Israel and the Middle East?
D. Bush did everything he could to set Obama up for failure. The Republicans have and continue to do everything they could to block any progress by the President and Congress. They have done so to the extent the Republicans are in a politcal
November 22, 2009 11:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
A prediction. Though we may never get an investigation into lying us into Iraq, Rumsfeld, KBR, etc. I think Pres. Obama is going to get quite aggressive in reminding voters re: whence ALL our major problems came from and how the Repug minority in the Senate has turned what used to be a rarity (threat of filibuster) into an obstruction for EVERY attempt to address the problems THEY created. He is going to be campaigning for Dem candidates all across the country.
November 22, 2009 1:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
On Obama aggressive LACK of Bush era-related investigation, Glenn Greenwald is a must read this week.
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/
November 22, 2009 1:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
When Rosenberg say "everybody," he makes it clear that he means people like himself and his friends.
I'm not a big fan, but I have to say...
Rosenberg and his friends are well-educated, intelligent liberals who follow the news in detail.
In that sense of "everybody," the answer is probably...
Yes, everybody is disappointed with Obama.
November 22, 2009 7:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rutubaga, the polls clearly say otherwise. You profoundly wishing otherwise wont affect that reality.
Its not a small cliche of dissatisfied people, its half the population of the United States. Trying to pretend there is no problem will kill this party's future in leading the government. We need to have the courage to address the questions and issues, and not just pretend they dont exist. I'd submit thats your problem, and Obama's problem as well, on many issues.
MJ is spot on.
November 23, 2009 4:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Harharharhar!!!
I love the liberal blogosphere! For every small sign of intelligence in it, there's always yet another dumb schmuck like "bkozumplik" dispensing half-baked edification in November, 2009, to people who already saw through Obama in November, 2007, when that son-of-a-bitch supported FTA-Peru after every farmer and worker in Peru had gone out on general strike against it.
Congratulations to M.J. Rosenberg and "bkozumplik" for finally waking up and noticing that we elected a blathering con-man.
Now look up "retarded" in your online dictionary, and try not to be quite so late for the next election.
November 23, 2009 7:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Try to make some kind of a clear point Rutubaga. Consider that ad hominem attacks are a waste of blog space and everyone's time-- so best avoided.
November 23, 2009 12:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nasty and unbecoming comment!
November 23, 2009 6:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Who better to defend the backward than tlees, still blogging about the JFK assassination after all these years!
Did you even bother to read bkozumplik's reply to my first comment?
The chump bkozumplik insulted me without even bothering to click on my moniker, which would have led him to 150 diaries which don't fit his silly misinterpretation of my comment, and then...
Poor old tlees wheezes out of his shoebox full of JFK memorabilia to defend the offensive dimwit bkozumplik!
Bravo! At least you're loyal to your demographic!
November 24, 2009 3:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
No thats true Rutubaga, I don't care to do research to try to figure out the backgrounds of random posters on blogs, any more than you do. I count on them to make a coherent point on their own. I'm not your mother Rutabaga, or your english teacher. If you can't write a coherent comment, that's your problem. I also can't teach you to think, or be civil or fun to be around. And great job catching the fact that I didn't use an apostrophe on "that's". You're a very smart person! You sure showed me! Ouch!! I can't believe I missed that apostrophe.
Man, I bet you are a lot of fun in person aren't you. Life of the party? Lots of people want to talk to you? I bet you are chock full of valuable insights. Yeah. Will you be my friend?
November 24, 2009 4:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
So anybody who is interested in history, including a history teacher, is subject to mockery by you?
November 25, 2009 11:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yep. They're villagers now. This is how villagers think.
November 23, 2009 1:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't count on that. Obama does not have the stomach to tell the truth about how our country got in this mess because that requires pointing out that the Republicans are responsible for it all. It makes him appear too "partisan" when he tells the truth to the country about how this mess came about. As a result, he has lost the opportunity to point the finger of blame rightly where it belongs and the Republicans are pinning it all on him! Adding insult to injury he refuses to defend even himself when they pull this crap!
November 22, 2009 9:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Me neither. I think our President is doing a stellar job in view of the problems he is facing. Unfortunately he is not getting any credit for it and that is not by mistake.
Did any of you really believe change would happen over night? If so then no wonder you are disappointed.
The whiners can whine all they want. I'm sticking with this President and I have no doubt he will be re-elected a second term. If not, we will go back to the same party that got us in this mess in the first place and as you all can see from their rhetoric, they liked things just the way they were and would be happy to go back to those days.
NOT ME!!
November 23, 2009 1:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am a fan of your writing and rarely comment here but this post has sincerely left me baffled. I may not be 100% happy with everything Obama has done but your 'proof' that everyone is disappointed with Obama seems flimsy. I volunteered in 3 different states for Obama, went door to door and am still pretty much in touch with everyone I worked with in the grassroots to get Obama elected. Not one of these people reflect this disappointment you speak of. I and most of the people I worked with did NOT want a GW Bush just in democratic clothing. Whoever thought Obama was that was simply projecting and did not pay attention to the election campaign. Obama is Obama and he is going to get things done his way. I guess if he were GW Bush we would have already gotten other things done? Think again. We are about to get a health Care bill other presidents did not even come close to so I am sticking to supporting his style and giving his administration a chance to get the work done. Also--way to propagate Fox News Talking Points--Black Jimmy Carter! Let's check back in June and see who is Jimmy carter then.
November 22, 2009 11:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ditto! Always amazes me that such blanket generalities are utilized in these types of posts. I don't know many who share the opinion or assumptions as stated in this blog.
November 22, 2009 12:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I hear it all the time here in the Philadelphia area.
November 22, 2009 3:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
LFO,
I'm of of the Obama supporters MJ is referring to, and No, I don't wish McCain/Palin had won simply because of my disappointment in Obama.
Obama's adoption of many of the Bush/Cheney gang's tactics in the war on terror, his seeming admiration for the Imperial Presidency, his refusal to make public certain records and pictures of CIA misconduct, his refusal to investigate possible criminal conduct of the Bush gang, his fighting FOIA requests, his adopting the "stater secrets" tactic of the Bush gang, his procrastination in handling Don't Ask Don't Tell, his absolute fecklessness regarding the Health Care Reform, his obsession with bi-partisanship with people who bite his hand off evertime he offers it, his pandering to Olympia Snowe in order to find laughable bi-partisanship with ONE Republican.
Finally, rather than appoint someone like Krugman or Stiglitz as Sec of Treasury he chose Geithner who, through AIG, practically sold the Teasury out to the Bankers. Geithner is too enamoured with Goldman Sachs and the rest of the robber barons on Wall Street.
Winning smiles and great speeches without strong leadership are worthless. Unless there's a monumental change in the economy soon Obama's weak leadership will go a long way to the Dems losing seats in the Senate, House and White House.
November 22, 2009 4:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amen!
November 22, 2009 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Right on target John! Well put!
November 22, 2009 9:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
agreed.
November 23, 2009 4:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oops! As I was saying:
They have done so to the extent the Republicans are in a politcal death spiral.
E. And so on.
Your argument fails to take into consideration some serious realities, and overlooks the probable perils of the alternative.
November 22, 2009 11:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Some "death spiral!" They'll pick up at least 25 seats in the House next year if unemployment is at 9 percent or higher. If they get a majority, impeachment hearings will begin immediately. Like that idea?
Obama has just flat sucked. He hasn't led on the economy and he's dithered on Afghanistan. He appears indecisive and weak. Everybody thought the Repubs were in a death spiral the first year of Carter's presidency, too. Later, they were rooting for Reagan to be nominated because he would be so easy to beat. If Obama keeps this up, he;ll get a strong primary challenge in 2012, and deservedly so. Obama's got about 6 months to tuen this economy around. If unemployment is close to where it is now next August, he and the Dems are finished.
November 23, 2009 6:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's a tough situation because a lot of people I know are also really tired of "Blame Bush" talk, even though Obama isn't passed his first year and has already done some good.
It's not that Bush isn't really still to blame, either. The financial crisis is his. And how can Obama be "dithering" about Afghanistan when the previou administration should have had the problem well solved before a new president took office (did anyone think Afghanistan was going to be an 8-year plus occupation?)
Problem is, there's a lot of appetite on both the left and right to forget Bush entirely. Psychologically, we are repulsed by failure. We don't like to dwell on it. There's also a bias, both on the left and the right for Obama to "own" his presidency.
Obama is also not the type to blame the last guy. It doesn't suit Obama's character. He doesn't like to do it. He's definitely an alpha male.
He's also a snob in the best sense of the term. He won't get into a public argument with people he seems unworthy. This means the Sarah Palins of the world can take a lot of free shots because Obama doesn't see much point in debating them.
I still have some problems with the big guy. I hate the health care legislation and I find it hard to muster support for it. I think the stimulus was a bit botched, relying on a trickle down effect while people are the top of the economy are just hoarding the money. I don't want to send more troops to Afghanistan. So some of my enthusiasm is waning just because he's not doing what I would have him do.
November 22, 2009 11:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
He's also a snob in the best sense of the term.
Were he he would have sacked the general who appeared in this piece of sartorial disrespect, then and there.
Note: The photo's location is London, not the plains of Afghanistan. And Maureen Dowd -- there's always a first time for everything -- has it right: “Your pie-holes [McCrystal's and Petraeus'] you will shut or rise higher you will not. Because, dang it, the president I am!”
November 22, 2009 8:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good point, as always.
November 22, 2009 8:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Ellen" doesn't have a clue who Stanley McChrystal is, or she would also know that he sleeps, eats, fornicates, and kills in that combat uniform, and that persona is exactly why Obama gave him McKiernan's job.
November 22, 2009 10:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
It shouldn't be antiBush talk anyway Destor. It needs to be anti-Republican and anti-Conservative. They need to be discredited and it needs to be done by our President. Sadly, he just doesn't have it in him to stand up like a man and denounce these assholes and discredit them. The other side denounced and insulted and excoriated liberals and Democrats for the past 40 years and it was mostly lies but it worked. Now that they have wrecked the economy and our reputation around the world and brought the country to it's knees we have a Democratic President who would rather get his ass kicked over and over and over than to stand up and denounce the Conservatives as the charlatans they are.
November 22, 2009 9:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
What conservatives are you talking about? GWB? Hardly. What spending did he cut? Did he balance a budget? NO. These aren't conservatives and I'm tired of being labeled with them. Both parties have found that it's easy to spend money and you get nothing for being frugal. Nobody votes for the guy who didn't build a bridge.
November 22, 2009 11:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Every Republican calls themselves conservative. I'm not interested in your semantics. Conservatives overall. Republicans overall.
November 22, 2009 11:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Typical cut-n-run from a new righty conservative poseur.
Riddle me this, faux honourable one, just who the f**k was your choice for President in 2000 and 2004? Then tell us why you were so easily duped. Is that another trait of Conservatives?
November 23, 2009 12:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
I voted for Bush, both times. What choice was there? Al Gore? He's a total freakin moron, and a charlatan/huckster as well. He's made over $100 million since he left government (he had NOTHING when he left) preaching Global Warming while investing heavily in the companies he pushes the gov't to support. Talk about conflict of interest. You people freaked out over Halliburton, but Cheney had no interest in it while VP. With Gore, it would be like Cheney was still CEO and had millions in stock. You liberals would have gone apoplectic. Plus Gore lives in a 10000 sq ft mansion and flies around in a private jet telling us all we need to cut back and live green.
November 23, 2009 7:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
See, you're not a REAL conservative, because you refuse to step up and accept responsibility for the effects that flow as cause from your past actions. Instead you play apologist, and distort the truth.
You state now that you had no choice other than to vote for GW Bush both in 2000 and 2004. Fool you twice? If your vote in an election was based upon a lesser of two evils argument, then you freely admit that you willfully voted for evil. That's a preponderate lack of principles governing your actions.
Additionally, your claims of not wholeheartedly supporting Bush, and having to hold your nose when voting for him seems suspect, given your own blog post here at TPM Cafe on August 11, 2008:
Even I no longer support Bush
Pretender...
November 23, 2009 10:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
NO, it just shows you are incapable of thought. I admitted that I was not a huge supporter of Bush from the start, but knew he was vastly better than the alternatives. You try to play word games about 'lesser of 2 evils', I never said Gore or Kerry were evil, just stupid. I never said I had to 'hold my nose' to vote for him, I liked him much more than McCain in general, and far, far, more than Kerry or Gore. But I did get disgusted with him after 2004 as he bungled the SS reform, and for his mishandling Afghanistan. I was really disgusted with the Georgian affair and how he let the State Dept screw up Uzbekistan. Fiscally he was never a conservative as he spent way too much, and he constantly tried to win over Democrats instead of steamrolling them.
November 23, 2009 5:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm stupid? why, because I don't take your weak and lame rationalising in an impotent effort to absolve yourself of proper responsibility at face value, and instead point out what you have stated in the past that indicates you supported GW Bush until he became vastly unpopular in the eyes of Americans? Offer some links to you posts/comments here that support your claims. I make your first blog post here at TPM to be dated July 2, 2008:
They can't be this stupid
Even at that late date in the GW Bush Administration, you proffered no opinion in opposition to DubyaDim. Just when did you decide that GW isn't really a conservative? Just when did you decide you didn't support him? You supported his inhumane pro-torture policies. That is self-evident from your post of April 22, 2009:
Read this if you oppose 'torture' for terrorists
You claim you were uncomfortable with GW Bush from the beginning, yet have not offered any (excuse the use of this next word, which so many Contemporary Conservatives consider to be obscene) Evidence in support of this. Instead you hurled a non sequitur insult at me, calling me stupid. ROTFLMAO! I'm calling your bluff: Put up or shut up, righty hiding out in a conservative disguise.
November 23, 2009 9:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
well, I'm certainly not disappointed in Obama. I think we get pretty much what I expected. Sure, like everybody, I sometimes entertained a wild hope that he would surprise me positively. That does happen, rarely. But I knew that I was just daydreaming, like about winning the lottery.
We didn't win the lottery. we got exactly what we paid for when we bought the lottery ticket, a short license to dream that life could be different, until reality reasserts itself.
What is disappointing for me is reading post after post here, including MJ's original, analyzing the issue as Obama's personality or style, or discussing which leading candidate would have been better. That's pathetic, it's like agonizing over taking the lottery ticket ending with 34 instead of the one ending in 77.
Obama is president because he convinced the power structure, the wall street funding base, the political commentariat, etc., that he would deliver them. Most crucially, that he, with his "community organizer" horse manure, is the best person to save US capitalism from the growing anger that is building up against it. And he does exactly that. He's saving wall-street's bacon. He's managing our anger. He's saving the insurance industry from reform. He's saving the war industry from the anger thatwasbuilding up against ity during the Bush years. He is demobilizing liberals. He is depoliticizing those who been recently politicized. He is doing great! This is the way power works. You want it to be different, you need to build a different power.
There is no shortcuts. We are in Afghanistan because we are ruled by the military-industrial complex. Hillary, Biden, Gore, nobody will do squat about that. They can't stand up to it for the same reason you can't stand up to train.
We are bailing out wall-street because we are ruled by wall-street, not because Obama is a patsy. If he weren't a wall-street patsy, he wouldn't have been electable in the first place. That's the rule. Look, Kucinich isn't a corporate patsy. He proved it by obstructing privatization to the point of losing his job as mayor. That is why he is not going to be president. Why didn't you all stuff envelopes and rang doors for Kucinich? You didn't do it because he wasn't electable and he wasn't electable because he isn't a patsy of corporate America.
November 24, 2009 10:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
well, I'm certainly not disappointed in Obama. I think we get pretty much what I expected. Sure, like everybody, I sometimes entertained a wild hope that he would surprise me positively. That does happen, rarely. But I knew that I was just daydreaming, like about winning the lottery.
We didn't win the lottery. we got exactly what we paid for when we bought the lottery ticket, a short license to dream that life could be different, until reality reasserts itself.
What is disappointing for me is reading post after post here, including MJ's original, analyzing the issue as Obama's personality or style, or discussing which leading candidate would have been better. That's pathetic, it's like agonizing over taking the lottery ticket ending with 34 instead of the one ending in 77.
Obama is president because he convinced the power structure, the wall street funding base, the political commentariat, etc., that he would deliver them. Most crucially, that he, with his "community organizer" horse manure, is the best person to save US capitalism from the growing anger that is building up against it. And he does exactly that. He's saving wall-street's bacon. He's managing our anger. He's saving the insurance industry from reform. He's saving the war industry from the anger thatwasbuilding up against ity during the Bush years. He is demobilizing liberals. He is depoliticizing those who been recently politicized. He is doing great! This is the way power works. You want it to be different, you need to build a different power.
There is no shortcuts. We are in Afghanistan because we are ruled by the military-industrial complex. Hillary, Biden, Gore, nobody will do squat about that. They can't stand up to it for the same reason you can't stand up to train.
We are bailing out wall-street because we are ruled by wall-street, not because Obama is a patsy. If he weren't a wall-street patsy, he wouldn't have been electable in the first place. That's the rule. Look, Kucinich isn't a corporate patsy. He proved it by obstructing privatization to the point of losing his job as mayor. That is why he is not going to be president. Why didn't you all stuff envelopes and rang doors for Kucinich? You didn't do it because he wasn't electable and he wasn't electable because he isn't a patsy of corporate America.
November 24, 2009 10:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
"What choice was there? "
Gore and Kerry.
November 23, 2009 6:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not disappointed yet, because (a) I knew he was pretty conciliatory (but also good at keeping the right wingnuts doing the circular firing squad thing, at the same time), and (b) I knew that any change would be very slow. I'll decide how disappointed I am in about another 2.5 years. :-)
November 22, 2009 12:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm with you. I think it is moronic and immature to expect this President to turn around a country that was on the brink of disaster in less than a year. He has accomplished a lot in a short time in office and I believe those mosty of us who voted for him sincerely are willing to give him time especially in view of the circumstances.
Obama accomplishments
Signed on October 28, 2009
Hate Crimes Bill
Signed on October 28, 2009
National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2010
Signed on October 22, 2009
Veterans Health Care Budget Reform and Transparency Act
#
Signed on August 06, 2009
Cash For Clunkers Extension
#
Signed on June 22, 2009
Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act
#
Signed on May 22, 2009
Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility, and Disclosure (CARD) Act of 2009
#
Signed on May 22, 2009
Weapons Systems Acquisition Reform Act
#
Signed on May 20, 2009
Helping Families Save Their Homes Act
#
Signed on May 20, 2009
Fraud Enforcement and Recovery Act
#
Signed on April 21, 2009
Edward M. Kennedy Serve America Act
#
Signed on March 30, 2009
Omnibus Public Lands Management Act
Signed on March 20, 2009
Small Business Act Temporary Extension
Signed on February 17, 2009
American Recovery and Reinvestment Act
*
Signed on February 11, 2009
DTV Delay Act
Signed on February 04, 2009
Children’s Health Insurance Reauthorization Act
*
Signed on January 29, 2009
Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act
November 23, 2009 1:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
MJ,
This was always in the cards.
I, personally took an enormous amount of (sniff) abuse here at TPM for pointing out (predicting) that it was going to be this way during the primaries and during the campaign. That called me everything in the book.
My idea, was always that the let down of all the enthusiastic Obamaite kids was going to do more damage to progressive politics in America than a McCain presidency would have. You'll not get all those young kids and minorities out to vote again like that easily ever again. They have been neutralized. Mission accomplished.
You don't have to be a Noam Chomsky to figure out that this was just a cosmetic operation of the establishment to clean up the damage to America's image that Bush caused. Obama was their Lampedusa, "change everything to change nothing" move.
My fear is that this disappointment may open the doors to a Palin or something even worse.
November 22, 2009 12:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have always respected your thoughts presented here. You may be right. I may be crazy.
What you seem to say is the sociopaths who put profit and power ahead of all else have made feints within feints to continue us on their path to species extinction. That's all right too. They will die with the rest of us.
November 22, 2009 1:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
You weren't alone David, and I might add, many of the true believers are still holding forth and howling till their voices give out if anyone dares to point out the truth of what the Obama Presidency is.
November 22, 2009 9:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Quote-Unquote: from another website, folks:
And the most powerful part of a remarkably powerful program came at its conclusion, when Bill Moyers looked into the camera and said:
Now in a different world, at a different time, and with a different president, we face the prospect of enlarging a different war. But once again we're fighting in remote provinces against an enemy who can bleed us slowly and wait us out, because he will still be there when we are gone.
Once again, we are caught between warring factions in a country where other foreign powers fail before us. Once again, every setback brings a call for more troops, although no one can say how long they will be there or what it means to win. Once again, the government we are trying to help is hopelessly corrupt and incompetent.
And once again, a President pushing for critical change at home is being pressured to stop dithering, be tough, show he's got the guts, by sending young people seven thousand miles from home to fight and die, while their own country is coming apart.
And once again, the loudest case for enlarging the war is being made by those who will not have to fight it, who will be safely in their beds while the war grinds on. And once again, a small circle of advisers debates the course of action, but one man will make the decision.
We will never know what would have happened if Lyndon Johnson had said no to more war. We know what happened because he said yes.
It is possible to go to the "Bill Moyers Journal" website and view "A Tale of Quagmires."
It is possible, as well, to visit the same site and read the transcript of a wise and nuanced rumination that is arguably the best statement available on both the war in Vietnam and the war in Afghanistan.
November 22, 2009 1:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amen!
November 22, 2009 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great post. Thanks for the Bill Moyers commentary. I sure am going to miss him when he retires.
November 23, 2009 3:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
The last that I knew, members of the Taliban happen to be citizens of Afghanistan.
Why oh why are we chasing ants on the other side of the world?
Does the Israeli government hold some sort of trump card against the U.S. government - if the latter should start thinking twice?
Are all Dem centrists nothing but shills for AIPAC?
November 22, 2009 1:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
President Obama is teaching us about emotional intelligence - that is the ability to operate without reacting impulsively to difficult situations. He was left with the worst mess any incoming president has had in my lifetime. He is not demagogueing(my spell check says that is not a word)he has stayed calm and collected.
As he said when he first got elected - the ship of state does not turn on a dime (and those who think it can are fooling themselves).
It would not be the first time we on the left shot ourselves in the foot because we were impatient with an enlightened leader. Jimmy Carter appointed Paul Volker head of the Fed and Volker tamed inflation by raising interest rates (I remember bying a fix up house and having a 21% interest mortgage). Everyone on the left freaked out and wanted instant change and so we got Ronald Reagan. Our country has been in a downward spiral, as far as the middle class and poor go, since then (with a slight reprieve during Clinton.
We now have a president with the emotional intelligence to bring us real change and everyong on the left is freaked out because their little issue has not been front and center
Grow up!
November 22, 2009 1:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Grow up yourself -- like it or not the voters will probably react the same way they did with Carter. Obama needs to learn to please his base or we are going to get someone far worse than McCain.
I agree that the left will be self-indulgent and wrong not to work all out for Obama the second time around but when you have been led to expect steak and get left over stew it is hard to work up enthusiasm.
As with Seaton I took a very careful look at who Obama said he was and have yet to be surprised by anything he has done except the appointment of Hillary. I thought his foreign policy was very much the same as hers, if anything rather farther to the right but I didn't expect him to put her in the cabinet.
November 22, 2009 2:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
That was something I was saying at the time: McCain was about the last half way decent Republican left.
November 22, 2009 3:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
That might be true if you think decent republicans want to bomb the hell out of everyone; and don't know shit from Shinola about the economy; and want air-heads as Vice Presidents.
November 22, 2009 3:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
So David instead of Obama, and after four years of:
the last half way decent Republican
..and his coterie of idiots and fools running the country further into an even deeper ditch, which politician from what party, with which Congress and Senate would appear to raise the nation from the ashes to greet a new dawn of a magically enlightened citizenry united in demanding specific sound and erudite policies?
It is more likely the divisiveness, fear mongering and vitriol would only worsen after 4 years of McCain/Palin, and the candidate pool would become even more beholden to big moneyed interests.
November 22, 2009 4:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
That isn't the choice nor is it David's point. Nobody who voted for Obama thinks anyone would be better off with McCain. The problem is that Obama is only marginally better than McCain and the whole "change" message was nothing more than a marketing device, but one that is going to make bitter cynics out of most the naive first time voters who thought that the change thing was really what he was all about, that he was "different." The point is that he's really just the Democratic version of more of the same, not change.
November 22, 2009 9:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
If some believe Obama is 'more of the same' than they are saying McCain would be no different. I believe they are wrong.
The first 10 months of the Obama administration have shown that change in this nation does not come easily, has many opponents, and cannot be accomplished easily, particularly by a Democratic Party where too many legislators are afraid to support it.
November 23, 2009 10:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Absolutely not. You're just choosing to distort the very clear point here so you don't have to deal with the reality of it.
November 23, 2009 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
... and he has given the world Sarah Palin. Thanks so much, John!
November 22, 2009 8:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
you miss the point.
its his choices that betray him!
November 22, 2009 6:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
"their little issue" Really? Such as what? The rule of law that Obama said he would restore but has undermined even further? The mortgage foreclosure crisis that he has not done anything about but instead chose to lavish Wall Street with what is left of the nation's treasury? Jobs about which he has done precious little? DADT? Stopping domestic spying which he has expanded? Respecting the Freedom of Information Act which he has undermined significantly? Stopping the wars which there is little hope he will do despite his empty promises? Healthcare reform which he doesn't even refer to instead he refers to insurance reform because his reform is basically an industry special interest bill? Little issues huh?
November 22, 2009 9:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think Obama is doing a great job. He listens to every side of an issue, and makes an informed decision based on the facts, not the politics. He is exactly what I voted for and supported.
If he is not successful it is the fault of those supporters like me who have not done enough to get his agenda through. Change is hard. What he is trying to do has been impossible in the past. There are too many entrenched interests in Washington, putting huge amounts of pressure on the government. Obama needs us to put pressure the other way on congress.
November 22, 2009 2:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
He's one of the entrenched interests, Okie. Look at his appointments - Geithner, Gates, Clinton, Rahm. Establishment hacks every one of them. His bipartisanship fetish is a page from the same book - what's really important is preserving the ruling oligarchy of two economically center-right and far-right parties.
November 22, 2009 3:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
this is why obama acts the way he does.
just pathetic
November 22, 2009 7:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
"One friend said it best. "Would Sarah Palin and her minions be able to scream about the debt if Obama had made clear from day one who was responsible for it? Would they be able to yell about his 'dithering' on Afghanistan if he pointed out that Bush and Cheney's decision to fight in Iraq caused us to lose Afghanistan."
Your friend is quite naive if they think that facts will stop Sarah Palin and her right wing friends from spewing lies. Obama has made these points countless times during the campaign and after he got into office. And the polls show that most Americans have not forgotten who got us into the wars and the financial mess. It's the media and the Right who are in denial. They will be reminded soon enough. He is not going to spend everyday fighting off these attacks, he's not on the campaign trail anymore.
"Bottom line. Liberals want an administration that is the left wing equivalent of the Bush-Cheney administration, an administration that had principles and stuck to them (every one of them wrong) and knew the difference between friends and enemies."
Shaking my damn head. After watching this guy for 2 years and seeing how he was complimentary of his opponents, agreeing with some or part of their ideas, constantly talking about reaching across the aisle in bipartisanship, you all thought he was going to be the Left wing equivalent of W.? He spent a lot of time promising the American people that he would not act like W. The Left thought that was a lie? an act? I heard several people say that the Left was projecting, and they were quickly dismissed. It is now apparently true. So blame your unreasonable expectations, not Obama's performance for your disappointment.
"Why didn't Obama allow hearings on how we were lied and manipulated into Iraq and how Rumsfeld made the decision to let Osama slip away into Pakistan? Why do we never hear about how Bush converted Clinton's surplus into the worst deficit in history? Democrats kept winning for 20 years by referring to Hoover's depression. And yet Democrats today shrink from the idea of blaming the administration that give Clinton's surplus away to the ultra-rich?"
1. This was in the news, no one cared because they were worried about losing their homes and jobs. 2. People know, that's why Americans rejected the GOP and gave Dems the majority. 3. We need to focus on what the GOP is doing NOW, which is NOTHING.
I am not disappointed in Obama (surprise, surprise). He is a politician working with other politicians in Washington D.C. - this is not exactly a fertile ground for the revolutionary change that Liberals want. People like to make long lists of the promises Obama made, but fail to remember the warnings. Many times he said, Power does not concede easily, change doesn't come from Washington, it comes to Washington (he wasn't talking about himself), change doesn't happen overnight, he might not get it done in his first year or his first term, there will be false starts, the hard work begins now, on and on and on. That wasn't a lie.
I am, however, very disappointed in the Left. Where is your fight? Why do you need the President to hold your hands or to inspire you? Why is the Right out organizing you? Is the possibility of President Sarah Palin not motivating enough? Or a president who will have to govern from the far right in order to stay in office? Forget helping Obama and making sure he gets reelected -it's not about him, I thought the Left was all about caring for the little guy, the middle class and the poor. Was that a lie? Did you only care about sticking it to right wingers who are 25%(or much less) of this country?
You have a Democrat in the White House. Take advantage. Get a new and EFFECTIVE stratergy for getting what you want from the White House. Stop demonizing his gatekeeper, Rahm. I just have to say that is a really really really foolish thing to do. Do not make an enemy out of the gatekeeper. Opportunity is banging on the door and you should not ignore it because it's not all of what you wanted. Get over it, get organized and get moving.
November 22, 2009 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
This exactly. The people who are not disappointed are actually the omens working on the ground not the ones spending the weekend obsessing over Gallup and Palin.
November 22, 2009 3:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, this exactly. Thank you for posting this. Obama is the President, not the dictator and there are three branches to our government. The left needs to keep the fight going all through the congressional elections.
November 22, 2009 8:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Excellent post. Thank you
November 23, 2009 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, everybody is disappointed.
Other than a dozen or so who will comment here.
November 22, 2009 2:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
ditto
November 24, 2009 10:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Grow up!" Just what we need, another junior high principal weighing in on international affairs.
Grow up? Yeah, I did, forty years ago - at a firebase near the Cambodian border, you tiddly winks asshat.
Listening to the taped Oval Office conversations of LBJ which Moyers includes in his programe, it is so apparent that the one primary, chief consideration was (and remains) political necessity. Oh yes, the necessities of American politics. People must die so that one or another side prevails in Washington.
Nothing has changed, huh folks?
In light of the old joke about the issue of where does an elephant sit, just stop awhile to consider all of the minions in Washington so ready and willing to french any and all elephants of the political world. And on the other hand, what is the essential difference between being an elected elephant and frenching AIPAC?
The stench is always acute and one can smell them a block away.
November 22, 2009 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nixon' on tape too (and not just about Watergate)- he and Kissinger dragged out things to let the 1972 election go by.
November 22, 2009 3:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
"... you tiddly winks asshat."
Love it!
November 23, 2009 6:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't have high expectations for Obama but he isn't the problem. The problem is that we have no political party to represent the interests of the middle-class, labor and the unmentionable poor. We have two political parties working to preserve the wealth of the top 2 or 3%. The Republicans feed their base with social issues and the Democrats feed their base with itty bitty nuanced policy tweaks that pretend to solve problems that the party has no intention whatever of solving.
Unfortunately, the status quo is becoming increasingly unacceptable and the establishment can't preserve itself anymore without causing real pain to the majority of Americans so how this will end remains to be seen, but New Orleans is a pretty good leading indicator.
November 22, 2009 3:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
As cited previously, this one program by Moyers will remain endlessly fascinating in the years to come, irregards whatever decision Obama arrives at.
If Obama feels himself trapped as Johnson so obviously did, if he bases his decisions accordingly, we'll all pay the greater price.
This is why I feel that Obama's cool, no drama, dispassionate manner - at this particular point in time - will lead, in the least instance, to a muddled outcome, and ever more tragedy at the most.
Johnson was a scalawag for and of consensus. JFK and RFK were more genetically prone towards leadership and in that, were way out there in the months leading up to November of 1963 (hint - the scheduled coup against Castro set for 12/01/63). However, the Vietnam quagmire would definitely not have happened if JFK had not been killed.
So the damned scalawag took the helm forty six years ago today and the nation has paid an inordinate price as a result.
November 22, 2009 3:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
"However, the Vietnam quagmire would definitely not have happened if JFK had not been killed."
Which is why the most extreme Cold Warriors had him killed!
November 22, 2009 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, no, lees-man. There was no governmental conspiracy. But I appreciate your sentiment. A few members (as well as assets) of the CIA went rogue, conjoined with the Mob and the latter's knowledge of the scheduled coup in Havana provided immunity following the hit in Dallas.
Over a million government documents and a whole boatload of Kennedy papers (administration and otherwise) remain sealed until the year 2017. However, as Waldron and Hartmann have convincingly revealed, the very ballsy Kennedy brothers walked themselves into a boxed canyon during the six months preceding the assassination. These two authors have begun to make all of the pieces of an astonishingly huge puzzle fit together.
November 22, 2009 5:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
leesman here :)
I agree the hitmen were from the mob & rogue CIA. But the planning and the post assassination coverup were done at very high levels. Douglass's JFK AND THE UNSPEAKABLE is the latest update on all of this
November 22, 2009 8:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Considering that JFK started Vietnam, why do you say it would not have been a quagmire?
November 22, 2009 5:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't get me wrong; I am a JFK fan, but he made some major blunders: Cuba and Vietnam were the worst.
November 22, 2009 5:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
All that I've come to know over the decades leads me to only one conclusion: JFK is by far the most fascinating character in human history.
Fascinating as opposed to consequential, and as a consequence of his decision to lead us to go to the Moon, Kennedy put himself up there near the top of the list.
If we step back, way back and gather it all in, his family, the business dealings and underground machinations of his father, all of the family dynamics, his being born with a congenitally weak spot in his spine, all of his sicknesses, his insights in foreign/Europen relations while assisting his father when they lived in London early in World War II, his pursuit of British aristocracy - being enamored by those who survived and returned from the First World War, the fact that he was a social prima donna who would brook no competition wherever he went, his persistence following the sinking of his boat in the Solomon Islands, that he was very likely bi-sexual in orientation and could employ that very effectively (even in the White House) to charm the skirt (perhaps even the pants) off of anyone he wanted to, his chemical dependency - simply to be able to keep going given his adrenal disease, those whom he chose for his staff - two especially - his speechwriter and his Attorney General, the extraordinary decisions which he made during the Thirteen Days of October (where the advice of said speechwriter and Attorney General truly saved the world from anhiliation) and finally - all of the inordinate complexity of events surrounding his death, which make one wonder wheter extra-terrestrials were playing with us humans that day in Dallas.
J. Edgar Hoover had been all set to pounce and initiate an American version of the Profumo Affair. The Fates intervened it seems. He knew what was coming - and so, stood up in his limousine to wave to the crowds as it rode through Tampa a few days before Dallas - knowing that the Mafia was aiming for him.
His death let loose of something in us.
November 22, 2009 6:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just read a long piece about the Castro plot having been designed by the Eisenhower administration and Allen Dulles, et.al. The man who was writing the piece was "in the room," and apparently Kennedy said it was too far along to stop, and remarked that he would have to go to Guatemala to disarm all the people who had been practicing for the invasion, i.e., they weren't ABOUT to be stopped. And that he had told Dulles that he wouldn't order the Essex in to help--and he didn't. Kennedy figured that Dulles was counting on his rookie-stautus, meaning he'd knuckle. Kennedy took the blame for the fiasco, and fired Dulles. (Whose big brother was John Foster Dulles, Ike's CIA director, who was one evil sumbitch.)
So many of the mega-power-players are so incestuous throughout administrations.
November 23, 2009 10:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
That is very interesting Wendy. Where did you get that piece; I'd love to read it! Those Dulleses were truly toxic!
November 23, 2009 11:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Crikey; it's taken me an hour to find it. I have that CRS disease, C'ville.
I'd been looking for days at what-powers-subvert-presidential aims; there is too much, really. Tons of documented evidence surfacing now that so much time has passed. Way too much CIA-pentagon skullduggery to NOT believe in the extent of it. I put some of it ,and lots of links, my long blog last night, pulled it due to spam yuckiness.
I have come to dislike those who call it "conspirabunk." If nothing else, at the very least the last 8 years proved we weren't wary Enough; who wants to believe in some of the darkest stuff? We ignore it at our peril.
That said, i also ran into s denverexaminer.com site, i think it was, claiming that JFK was assassinated because he wanted to share the US task for info on UFOs with Kruschev. Kewl! It's a two-bagger: We find out who assassinated him, plus we get to see that there IS actual evidence of UFOs in both countries! :-}
November 23, 2009 11:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
http://www.orwelltoday.com/jfkcubabaypigs.shtml
I am banging my head on the table...CRS, I forgot the link, c'ville.
November 23, 2009 12:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wendy this is not precise enough. John Foster Dulles was Ike's Secretary of State. Allen Dulles was Ike's and JFK's CIA Director until JFK canned him after the Bay of Pigs fiasco. Interestingly, LBJ selected him to be on the Warren Commission.
November 23, 2009 6:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think John Foster was Ike's Sec. of State; younger brother Allen was the Director of the CIA under Ike. I think.
November 23, 2009 8:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's correct.
November 23, 2009 9:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
He didn't start it. We were there in the 50's. He escalated but clearly saw it would go nowhere. Many responsible and nuetral scholars believe he would have withdrawn our troops from Viet Nam had he lived.
November 22, 2009 10:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Douglass's JFK AND THE UNSPEAKABLE confirms this.
November 22, 2009 11:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I call BS. Read the Pentagon Papers. JFK had every intention of escalating in Vietnam. He was interested in convincing the public to support the escalation. It is all there in black and white.
November 22, 2009 7:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not so - JFK moderated near the end (that's why he was murdered). He prevented nuclear war in 1962; he gave the American U. speech; he got an atmospheric nuclear test ban; and he issued a directive to begin the withdrawal of troops. The Cold Warriors in the CIA and Pentagon wouldn't stand for this. They considered JFK weak on communism and had him killed.
November 22, 2009 8:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Zipperupus/tlees2 - - suggest you both read these three volumes (based largely upon previously declassified government docs):
Perils of Dominance by Gareth Porter, 2005
Ultimate Sacrifice - John and Robert Kennedy, the Plan for a Coup in Cuba, and the Murder of JFK, Lamar Waldron & Thom Hartmann, rev. 2006
Lessons in Disaster, Gordon Goldstein, 2008
Yes, there have been numerous, highly credible works indicating the high likelihood of there having been a conspiracy. But not one of them begin to approach the degree to which Waldron and Hartmann have fitted the pieces of an inordinate puzzle together.
Porter presents clear and overwhelming evidence that Kennedy was intending to withdraw from Vietnam, that McNamara was 100% behind it and as soon as the hit in Dallas went down, turned 180 degrees and got right on board Johnson's program.
Dan Ellsberg calls it "the most provocative and original reinterpretation of Vietnam and Cold War policy making to come along in a generation." I don't agree with the author's (very narrow) central thesis but the new information which he cites is breath-taking.
November 22, 2009 10:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'll put them on my list. I'm reading Jefferson Morley's OUR MAN IN MEXICO: Winston Scott and the Hidden History of the CIA right now. I just finished the updated version of John Newman's OSWALD AND THE CIA. You should also, as I've mentioned, check out James Douglass's JFK AND THE UNSPEAKABLE.
November 22, 2009 11:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, JFK did issue a directive calling for a phased withdrawal... in 1962. You have to follow the timeline. In 1963, Diem's regime was overthrown and the situation was volatile. Every reccomendation that came to Kennedy, every one, wholeheartedly backed the domino theory and the inevitable escalation of US combat troops into Vietnam to pacify the unrest. Only Galbraith was a voice of reason, but his voice was muted after the Diem coup.
Yes, history shows that Kennedy was reluctant to go "all in" due to his lack of confidence in the Diem regime and concerns over a broadening conflict conflagrating SE Asia. But... the papers show that he was going to decide on one of several possible reccomendations, and all of them called for US ground forces in Vietnam.
November 23, 2009 1:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Au contraire Zipperus, "Kennedy's plan 'to withdraw the bulk of U.S. personnel by the end of 1965,' became official government policy on October 11, 1963, in the president's National Security Action Memorandum (NSAM) Number 263." (James Douglass JFK AND THE UNSPEAKABLE p.187)
November 23, 2009 6:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are such a pathetic fool. Keep repeating that "Clinton Surplus" line, maybe you can convince some other idiots to believe you. However, the pesky internet provides info like this:
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo4.htm
from the US Gov itself, showing that the debt has INCREASED every year, including each year of Clinton's presidency. There never was a surplus, there never was a balanced budget. It's all right there to see, that is if you can read.
Oh, and it also shows that the deficit champ of all times is Obama, with almost 2 trillion in less than 1 year. Add in the costs of his proposed second 'stimulus', plus the health plan, and he will have doubled the entire debt in his first (and only) term.
November 22, 2009 4:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey TCB, this is all outstanding Treasury debt including interest payments, right? Because there's no doubt that the total public debt has increased every year. It's also true that Clinton generated one annual budget surplus -- that doesn't mean the surplus was enough to cut the total public debt and interest payments, only that a surplus was created for one budget year.
Now we know he did this because the Treasury was, for a short time, able to stop issuing 30 year Treasury bonds, the most expense type of debt to raise and we know that even George Bush agreed that Clinton had created one annual surplus, which he argued should be returned to the people.
You're absolutely right, though -- it didn't bring down our total debt. To do that, the surplus would have had to have been either used to pay down existing debt (buy out bondholders on the open market) or invested in order to buy out bonds when they mature.
It's a comlicated issue but, for what it's worth, I think you make a good point but that people who point out that Clinton created one annual budget surplus (no easy feat) are also correct and how that did or didn't alleviate our long-term debt issue is another matter and one we can certainly debate.
-Mike
November 22, 2009 4:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is purely smoke and mirrors trickery for the government to claim to have a budget surplus, yet the total debt increases. This is because there are many items that are 'off budget' that still result in gov't spending. Not that I'm blaming Clinton, this is the way they do it, but at no point did we take in more money than we spent, which is how normal people define a surplus. Clinton benefitted from having a fairly fiscally conservative Congress of the opposite party, which usually results in less spending. Obama is burdened with a very free spending Congress of his same party, and he is also a big spender, so the debt is going to skyrocket over the next few years. Without a major change we will hit 20 trillion in a few years, and be facing economic ruin. Yet everyday I hear nothing but new plans to spend another trillion, and raise some other tax. Eventually this will end very badly, like it did for Carter (the last big spender with a big spending Congress of the same party - other than GWB)
November 22, 2009 4:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I should also point out that part of what you said - that Clinton stopped issuing 30 yr t bills, is part of the reason for the deficit being reduced at that time: short term financing. This has a downside as well, when rates go up and you are forced to refi at much higher levels.
November 22, 2009 5:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Interest rates have plummeted since Clinton left so anything refinanced wouldn't have been done at a higher level. Remember also that not issuing 30 years saved us money, the longer the duration the greater the expense.
Yes, some government spending is off the balance sheet. Some of it, like Medicare and Social Security is off because it's not real spending, it's a projection. The current expenditures, the checks written, are in the budget.
The big off balance sheet expenditure of the Bush years was Iraq (now on the balance sheet) but you're quite fair in pointing out that GWB is as big a spender as anyone.
I feel for you, Bulldog. You're a principled conservative (and quite thoughtful and friendly) but you've been let down by both parties.
November 22, 2009 6:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am also NOT disappointed in Obama.
I am disappointed in in the people who are now disappointed in him after stupidly expecting him to wave a magic wand and solve all their pet problems in flash.
Anyone who expected Obama to be a fighter as president did not do his/her homework on the man. Read his speeches, read his book, look at his track record from Harvard Law Review on. His MAIN cause has been compromise, getting people of different views to work together. A guy like Obama becomes president of a country roughly evenly divided between one party run by aggressive stubborn-as-hell unscrupulous hypocrite ignorance-worshippers, and a second party run by mealy-mouth flip-flopping feel-good utter cowards, what in blazes can you expect? That he will pour spinach down all the cowards' throats and turn them into Popeye with muscles bulging?
The U.S. Democratic Party of the last 10 years has been dominated by some of the most spineless wimps of all American history.
After barely winning the election in 2000 on popular votes, and much more barely losing it in the court-determined electoral college, these craven wishy-washers crumbled like wet noodles to support a tax cut for the rich based on sheer stupidity. Then they fell in like lemmings behind the idiocy of a "war on terror." Then in a crowning moment of supreme cowardice they rubberstamped the mad deceit-laden and incompetence-based rush into the quagmire of Iraq, an invasion breathtakingly obviously based on ANYTHING BUT the national interest and security of the country, and THEN sat on their quivering backsides and did not do a DAMN THING on Iraq EVEN after getting a Congressional majority in 2006.
Now Mr. Obama is supposed to snap his fingers like Dream of Jeannie and make everything all better again? A class room of second-graders would know better than that.
6 six years ago hardly anyone hear had even ever heard of Obama. Now he is supposed to be the most superhuman president of all time?
Folks, this is ridiculous. You want Obama to be a fighter, start fighting yourself and for something real. Stop this copy-cat crap about "supporting the troops" as if the chickenhawkshit of Bush and Cheney must be tolerated forever. Stop wasting a whole summer on utterly irrelevant tea-leaf-reading about what a slam dunk Supreme Court nominee did or didn't accidently or on purpose say or mean ten years ago. Stop juvenile sloganry about "hope" (for what, without doing anything?) or "change we can believe it" (WHAT F-ING change? oil change, spare change?). Stop ignoring the real problems of an oil-addicted something-for-nothing economy, a broken international security system, an education system starved of funding but smothered in political correctness, the asinine worshipping of digital gadgetry, the decadence of a cess-pool popular culture, the tolerance of incompetence and ignorance, etc etc.
November 22, 2009 4:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hell yeah. This too. I think some people really believed the messiah meme from the republicans and thought Obama would just magically change things. He is working his ass off doing exactly what he said he would do. And all the mewling here is just exasperating. I usually don't even bother to comment here but this post was too much to ignore. It was the same during the election though with many many people saying Obama could never win unless he acted exactly as they said he should and yet he won. I am betting on him not on the weak-kneed people who question everything without giving his admin a chance to fix the mess of 8 years 10 months in!
November 22, 2009 6:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Our pop culture rocks, ptroub!
To be fair, a lot of Democrats were worried during the primaries that Obama was too conciliatory and we were told not to worry, this guy was from the rough and tumble world of Chicago politics and would kick some ass. We helped get him elected by a huge margin, by recent standards.
Honestly, I blame the "centrists" who take our party name in congress for most of Obama's problems but his critics from the left are well meaning, have a great point and deserve kinder treatment from you.
November 22, 2009 6:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
If "Liberals want an administration that is the left wing equivalent of the Bush-Cheney administration" they need the equivalent of Republican Party loyalty in Congress and the electorate, and they need to accept that after being completely ineffective for from 2001-08, years, they just one year ago managed to elect a fresher, more invigorating, more eloquent and more inspirational functional equivalent of George H.W. Bush. Whose admin., by the way, was not 1/10th the disaster for America that his son's was, and did not have to clean up after such a disaster.
"Critics from the left," look in the mirror, and see that Pogo was right.
November 22, 2009 7:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
What liberals want is leadership that actually believes in something and is willing to take some risk to stand for that something, rather than a bunch of lightweights who won't even defend themselves let alone anyone else.
That is the current state of the democratic party. Gore, Kerry, Obama, as well as the senators and reps--if they won't fight for or defend themselves, how can I think that they will fight for or defend anyone else?
November 23, 2009 12:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd like this to be a stand alone post...
I very much agree w/ what you are saying.
I am not disappointed in Obama as much as I am disappointed the dems have been unable to pull together to push the left's agenda ahead better.
I am horrified to see my new party be so utterly w/o conscience.
I am disappointed to see that the dems are unwilling to confront lobbyists, especially the trial lawyers association, that appears to be untouchable. THAT probably pisses me off more than anything.
One man cannot do a complete overhaul of Washington in one year. Anyone who thought he could, deserves to be disappointed.
November 22, 2009 8:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was saying before the election that the only thing that could derail an Obama presidency were the Democrats in Congress.
And, if I was naive about anything, it was that I really thought the Democrats would have learned their lessons from the past two failures (i.e., Clinton and Carter) and given a Democratic president the support needed to pass a Democratic agenda.
November 22, 2009 9:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
He does not appear to be engaged nor have a connection any longer to the voters. While Palin stirs up the "lunatic fringe" he seems to have retreated to an offside seat in the bleachers.
November 22, 2009 4:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not disappointed in Obama, just "for" him.
The absolute chaos and corruption at every level of government cannot be undone. From government contracting to the big bank bailouts while little banks wither and die (to be swallowed whole by the biggies later).
It's a massive money grab, the people with the most want all the money. Just watch, the stock market will bubble (again) then burst, just so they can shave off what little any shareholder has left. This is probably orchestrated to cause fundraising problems in the next Presidential election
If Bernanke or Geithner have any conscience at all they will place a moratorium on consumer payments of any kind to any bank that has accepted bailout funds in order the "cleanse" their balance sheets. Why should I pay my mortgage if my bank won't lend to anyone, credit worthy or otherwise?
All I can hope for is that it doesn't get worse under his administration.
November 22, 2009 5:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Time for a Josh Marshall-like Deep Thought:
How can "everyone" be disappointed in Obama if 49% of the people approve of his job performance?
Obama's difficulties are largely due to the magnitude of the problems he is tackling as well as the nature of the opposition, which has been even more insane than expected.
I tend to agree with Andrew Sullivan's analysis that Obama is playing a long game here. Expect the economy to start showing signs of life in the next six months or so as the Republicans sputter on uselessly. Once healthcare reform is passed, you can also expect a huge boost for Obama. And that's almost regardless of what it ends up looking like.
Bottom line: call me naive, but I think he's doing just fine and will be fine politically.
November 22, 2009 5:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Could anybody seriously be surprised to find that Obama is a "conciliator?" Isn't that his "thing?" Red state-blue state-united states etc?
November 22, 2009 5:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not sure but what you're really asking is whether or not a decent, thoughtful person can succeed in American Politics, or whether one has to become like the "other" to defeat the other. I hope not, I really do hope not. It has been said too many times to count that a country gets the kind of government it deserves. If we deserve the caustic, crude, fright-mongers, then we'll get the caustic, crude fright-mongers. And if Obama goes down the way Carter went down, well, I would rather have a one-term Carter with a brilliant ex-presidency than a two term Reagan or George W. And history will judge him and Obama kindly, even if nervous progressives don't.
But don't expect he's neglecting the sins of the past administration. Eric Holder, New York City, an Open Court:-- there's a couple of shots across the bow of Cheney and the anti-Constitutional Republicans that will be most interesting to watch.a
November 22, 2009 5:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
People do believe he's decent and thoughtful but that isn't what they want in a President. They want him to deliver. They want to be able to answer that "are you better off...?" question in the affirmative. It doesn't matter how decent and thoughtful Obama is if your husband is out of a job, your kids can't afford college and you can't afford healthcare.
November 22, 2009 5:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
When KSM is acquitted in open court due to either lack of evidence (most will be excluded), or from inability to seat a jury, or due to the excessive delay in trying him, or due to misconduct (torture?), or the refusal to reveal top secret intell, or any number of other reasons that were the driving force behind the military tribunals, the price Obama will pay politically will be huge.
November 22, 2009 5:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fair warning: I just bookmarked this and plan to dig it out for you at an appropriate time.
November 22, 2009 6:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fine with me, I stand by my words. If the rule of law is followed KSM gets acquitted or charges dismissed. There are so many problems with this case I can't see how they get a conviction other than by jury misconduct, and that still leaves it open for appeal and reversal.
November 22, 2009 11:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
If that is true then the person that should get blamed is no other than bush himself...The things that occurred to make the case potentially unwinable, were done on his watch, under his orders.
If we have to send it to a military tribunal because it can't be won under our judicial system, because we did such unthinkable things to this man, what the emeffin' hell does that say about us and our precious system????
November 23, 2009 12:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, for one it says that our system is not designed to handle international terrorists that are equipped like a modern army. These guys aren't your lone terror group, they function worldwide, have armies of men, equipped with RPG's, expolsives, and heavy machineguns. It takes the military to bring them down or capture them. The military is not a police force, they do not follow the same procedures. That's why in the past the gov't used military tribunals, and the Supreme Court approved.
November 23, 2009 7:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Consider this also, we have great difficulty getting convictions against gang members and Mafia bosses. Why? Juries fear retaliation. Now, what is the likelihood a jury would feel that trying AlQuaeda big shots might set them and their families up for retaliation? What if suicide bombers attack the courtroom? Imagine the chaos, and the huge pr win for them if a trial has to be halted. They could claim they were more powerful than our justice system. If I ran AlQuaeda, a trial in NYC like this would be my dream come true.
November 23, 2009 7:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Well, for one it says that our system is not designed to handle international terrorists that are equipped like a modern army."
Oh right, the box cutters....you ARE kidding, right?
Furthermore, terrorism is as old as mankind, and does not require a full-scale war in response.
November 23, 2009 11:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
You have no idea how much you really piss me off here, bulldog.
You were among the chest thumpers who were so proud of Bush/Cheney being the really tough guys in their embrace of torture and indiscriminate kidnapping and detenttions and whatever else happened to catch their fancy. Real Jack Bauers, these guys! Bunch of despicable would-be heroes who showed an absolute contempt for the Rule of Law as their cowardly response to 9/11.
And you were right there with them, cheering them on. It is no wonder that you now have so little faith in the Rule of Law when you were so willing to abandon it at the first sign of trouble.
You are right that Bush/Cheney's traitorous refusal to abide their Constitutionally prescribed Oath has definitely complicated our ability to bring scum like KSM to trial. But to trial we must go, if for no other reason than to show that we are indeed a people who follow the Rule of Law. It is THAT important to wrest control of this government and this Republic away from the tinhorn, chickenhawk despots who so defiled our Constitution. It is THAT important to once again return to the Rule of Law.
The tough guy "heroes" of Gitmo and the Orwellian "Patriot Act" now cower and quake at the thought that KSM would be presented a fair trial. What fucking cowards! I have faith that we can survive even the severe insult Bush/Cheney (and jackass enablers like yourself!) have levelled upon our ability to seek Justice. It ain't going to be easy, but it's the only path we can follow if we care to ever stand tall as the progeny of patriots rather than cheap replicants of a Kiefer Sutherland TV character.
Cut the whining, bulldog, and get the hell outta' the way. There's real work to be done here in the Land of the Brave, and you snivelling cowards only get in the way as you continue crawling on your bellies looking for cover.
November 23, 2009 9:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Gee, FDR used military tribunals to try German saboteurs. Guess he was just as evil as GWB? Another 'tinhorn chickenshit despot' that trashed the constitution? Even though the supreme court approved the tribunals in BOTH cases? Moron.
November 23, 2009 1:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
There was never any question that we would try the criminals who committed the first bombing of the WTC in a federal court - in fact, in the same court in which KSM will be tried. The crime in these two cases is pretty much identical. Yet, there is an incredible uproar from all the "tough guy patriotic chickenhawk despots" that this is unreasonable to consider in the case of KSM. The only difference here is that we first tortured the defendant and stripped him of his other rights in WTC bombing #2 for no other reason than it gave Cheney a sense of personal empowerment and probably good wood to boot.
Rather than acknowledge just how stupid you were in allowing Cheney to go all Jack Bauer, all you asshat "tough guys" now cower and whine that you really must convene the closest thing you can come to having a kangaroo court hearing of this case because your past actions have compromised the ability to try a case in Federal Court.
Collectively, your continued lack of respect for the Rule of Law says about all we need to know regarding your integrity on the issue of Justice and real patriotism. Yeah, some kind of real flag-waving heroes y'all turned out to be! "God Bless America," and all that, all the while ready to run for cover at the first sign of trouble. It is truly despicable and earns nothing from me but my utmost contempt.
November 23, 2009 5:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am not disappointed in Obama in the least. I am still in awe of his having gotten Healthcare Reform this close to passing in Congress. He IS a fighter, but he's fighting on a higher level - you can't see the punches he throws.
November 22, 2009 6:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, unless they have their heads in the sand. And yes, most people are disappointed even if they would rather have Obama in office than palin/mccain.
November 22, 2009 6:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
obama has reinvigorated a dying republican party with his weak style and republican light policies.
its a joke that the media pretends to give coverage to the cries of liberal,socialist etc.
everyone with a brain sees he is anything but a liberal/progressive.
and who with integrity could like him for that?
November 22, 2009 6:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, MJ, this column is incomprehensible.
I am still filled with joy and relief to be free of the incompetent evil bastards that preceded this president.
Just one point : there is no more Wisecrack of the Day, dreamed up by Rove and spewed by President Knucklehead, expressly designed to rile up their political enemies.
I like the impression of coolheaded thoughtfulness and quiet hard work.
Remember : all the one-issue people that we expect Obama to oppose will get together in order to thwart him. This means he cannot take them all on at once.
Let the man work.
November 22, 2009 6:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
"And who is going to turn this situation around before we are in Jimmy Carterland?"
It does not seem likely to come from this administration. I would hope sincere progressives and liberals disassociate themselves as much, as completely and as soon as possible from this coming train wreck, because not only does it promise to be a disappointment, but it seems likely to take us down with it. The ONLY place where I have found Obama supporters from 2008 who are not disppointed and distressed in 2009, has been a few posters at TPM who patrol the threads and shout insults at the Obama critics. Their number has steadily declined as the passion of the disappointed and disenchanted critics have increased. Truly sad but clearly this has all been done by design. John Conyers said it best:
"the longtime Michigan Democrat said he was tired of the just-get-something-done attitude of Rahm Emanuel, and insisted that Obama had moved far away from being the "ardent single-payer enthusiast" he once was.
"I'm getting tired of saving Obama's can in the White House," said Conyers. "I mean, he only won by five votes in the House, and this bill wasn't anything to write home about. The public option is only available, which is the only way you manage cost and get some competition to 1,300 other health insurance companies, the only way he could have got that through is that progressives held their nose and voted for it anyway."
Asked if the president had shown enough leadership in the health care debate, Conyers facetiously wondered why Press would ask the question.
"Of course not, of course not," he said. "You know, holding hands out and beer on Friday nights in the White House and bowing down to every nutty right-wing proposal about health care, and saying on occasion that public options aren't all that important is doing a disservice to the Barack Obama that I first met who was an ardent single-payer enthusiast himself.""
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/19/conyers-rips-obama-emanue_n_363702.html
November 22, 2009 7:36 PM | Reply |