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Hillary Praises Neyanyahu Peace Moves While Democratic House To Pass Resolution Defending Israel's Actions in Gaza War on Tuesday

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Here is today's Haaretz It looks like the administration has backed down on its criticism of settlements and that America is, yet again, putting all the onus on the Palestinians. Bibi is one happy guy today.

Meanwhile, the House is planning to vote Tuesday to support the Israeli position that the Gaza war was a praiseworthy exercise in Israeli restraint and sensitivity to civilians.

The good news is that J Street is opposed to it.

The bad news is that the 800 pound gorilla, AIPAC, and its satellite organizations are pushing it hard.

The House resolution which will pass on Tuesday basically endorses everything Israel did in the horrific Gaza war while bashing Judge Richard Goldstone for documenting war crimes committed in that war (320 dead Palestinian kids!).

After the vote I'll post the roll call and you will see that some of your favorite "courageous" liberals are none too courageous when it comes to this issue. Some of the very House members who denounce the Iraq war, the Afghanistan war and God knows how many other US military actions (often rightly) go mute when it comes to Israel. In fact, most of them do. In other words, they are courageous when there is no cost for it. (I'm curious about my current hero, Alan Grayson. Does he buckle on this issue?)

Passing this resolution will damage US security by stating to the world that when Bibi asks us to jump, we jump even higher. (Note to Congress: Did you ever consider just saying you don't agree with Goldstone's findings or did AIPAC reject that approach?)

Here is the Post story. Here is the resolution. Here is a Jewish Telegraphic Agency report by its fine reporter, Ron Kampeas, showing just how bad this resolution is.

Next week: the names of the Democrats who vote for it, just so you know why John F. Kennedy would not be writing "Profiles in Courage" about Congress in the 21st century.
I douby they will pass it by voice vote because then they can't get "credit" from AIPAC.


119 Comments

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Unfortunately for J Street and its enablers, you can’t have a conference in Washington D.C. for four days and disguise your core beliefs. Really, the jig is up.
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/rubin/149092

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The House resolution which will pass on Tuesday basically endorses everything Israel did in the horrific Gaza war while bashing Judge Richard Goldstone for documenting war crimes committed in that war (320 dead Palestinian kids!). .... Passing this resolution will damage US security

House resolution which will pass on Tuesday basically endorses everything US did in the horrific Afghanistan war while bashing Judge Richard Goldstone for documenting war crimes committed in that war (tens thouusands Afghani kids!).

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Call these sheep and tell them that AIPAC is losing power and will lose them more if they support this genocide. Look at the latest reports on the withholding of water..Shameless..

Note that BiBi is less in the news and even more rarely with World leaders as a result of the atrocities in Gaza and his refusal to be helpful in discussions on the ceasation of settlements...


1.800.828.0498 or 1.877.264.4226.

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The House resolution which will pass on Tuesday basically endorses everything Israel did in the horrific Gaza war while bashing Judge Richard Goldstone for documenting war crimes committed in that war (320 dead Palestinian kids!).

That report should be laughed out of town if it were not so disgusting. 320 dead kids is the result of the Hamas human shield war crime. Assigning Hamas war crimes to the IDF is needs to be called out for what it is, the big lie.

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you will see that some of your favorite "courageous" liberals are none too courageous when it comes to this issue

We've already seen that right here on Josh Marshall's TPMCAFÉ with the obscene flashing paid ads by the Israeli Foreign Ministry, Josh acting as an agent of a foreign power thereby. Shame!

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MJ: thanks for your consistently great work on this issue.

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Thanks for reporting the coming outrageous betrayal of America by the US Congress. It is an old story, but that does not make it remotely acceptable. Having heard a great deal from, and even more about, J Street over the past few weeks, it is however reasonable to ask now what if anything it will be doing against this insult to our country.

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Let's hope that J street can help "liberate the Congress" from the Jew Dominance.

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"Jew dominance" is a phrase usually used only by liars, idiots and anti-Semites. It is of course true that, as with every other ethnic or religious group, there are Jews who act out personal pathological issues in public, with the result that normal civilized people of whatever affinity or affiliation in the zone of fire react negatively. None of this, however, is relevant to any substantive issue on this page; little wonder then that it is the most prolific poster here, who over hundreds of prior TPM posts has proven hardly ever capable of saying anything relevant that is not copied and pasted from elsewhere, is dumping such garbage, like a spoilt child seeking attention from adults by misbehaving.

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I stand corrected.
Let's hope that J street can help "liberate the Congress" from the Few Bad Jew Dominance.

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No you are not enough close to being correct (even without worrying about the English grammar). The influence from which liberation is needed is from the US dupes and tools of the West Bank settlers who are

1. Maniacs
2. Bigots
3. Terrorists
4. Extreme fringe Israelis
5. Adherents to a fanatical brand of Judaism

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I stand corrected.
Let's hope that J street can help "liberate the Congress" from the Few Bad Jew who live in West Bank Dominance.

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I visited the link and read the resolution. I can't agree that it "basically endorses everything Israel did" I believe others should read it to judge for themselves. The resolution did not endorse every Israeli action but did criticize bias in the Goldstone report. I perceive the same bias in this post in its misrepresentation of what the resolution actually said.

Just as the resolution did not endorse eveything Israel did, I don't either. However, the resolution makes some legitimate points that deserve more consideration than the one-sided characterization and unwarranted dismissal presented here.

It appears that the views expressed in the resolution are widespread outside of the U.S., in Europe and elsewhere, and don't reflect an idiosyncratic perspective of the U.S. Congress. In any case, the best recourse is for readers to read the resolution to draw their own conclusions.

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I can't agree that it "basically endorses everything Israel did"
Of course MJ is correct. By my count, the resolution (H. RES. 867) criticizes UN actions 15 times, Hamas 4 times and Israel not at all. Therefore one must conclude that Israeli actions have been fully endorsed since they are not criticized like the UN and Hamas actions. http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=hr111-867
It appears that the views expressed in the resolution are widespread outside of the U.S., in Europe and elsewhere
Check the news.
Western allies on Wednesday pressured Israel to launch credible investigations into UN allegations of possible war crimes by the Israel Defense Forces during the winter conflict in the Gaza Strip. The United States, Britain and France all said Israel should look into findings published last month by a UN mission led by South African jurist Richard Goldstone. --15 Oct 2009
http://www.indymedia-letzebuerg.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32860&Itemid=28

This, of course, was before the Israeli government and AIPAC applied heavy pressure on US lawmakers and their campaign funding sources, augmented by the PR campaign referenced above.
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In accordance with my suggestions above, interested readers should look at the resolution, the Goldstone report, and also reread this post to judge for themselves. I expect most will agree that the resolution does not endorse every Israeli action, but rather focuses on what it sees as flaws in Goldstone's report. However, all who review these sources can draw their own conclusions in preference to refereeing arguments here.

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Thanks so very much, Fred, for repeating your usual paternal advice to readers. We'd be lost without it. What to do? Fred knows. We should decide for ourselves! Thanks again, Fred.

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Shorter Fred:

When the Palestinians are wrong, blame the Palestinians.

When the Israelis are wrong, blame both sides. And call it balanced.

Obama's betrayal of the Arabs is complete. See http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1124928.html

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The kill ratio was 100-to-1 in our favor. The destruction ratio was much, much greater than that. To this day, thousands of Gazans are living in tents because we won't let them import cement to rebuild the homes we destroyed. We turned the Gaza Strip into a disaster area, a humanitarian case, and we're keeping it that way with our blockade.

Meanwhile, here on the Israeli side of the border, it's hard to remember when life was so safe and secure.

So let's decide: Who was the victim of Operation Cast Lead, them or us?

No question - us. We Israelis were the victims and we still are. In fact, our victimhood is getting worse by the day. The Goldstone report was the real war crime. The Goldstone report, the UN debates, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the Red Cross, B'Tselem, the traitorous soldiers of Breaking the Silence and the Rabin Academy - those were the true crimes against humanity. This is what's meant by "war is hell."

It is we who've been going through hell from the war in Gaza. It is we who've been suffering.

Gazans? Suffering? What's everybody talking about?

We let them eat, don't we?

This imaginary monologue is how we actually see ourselves today. We initiated the war in Gaza, we waged one of the most one-sided military campaigns anyone's ever seen - and we're the victims.

We're fighting off the world with the Holocaust; witness Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu at the UN with his Auschwitz props. "We won't go like lambs to the slaughter again," vowed his protégé, Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz, in a cabinet discussion of the Goldstone report.

Auschwitz, lambs to the slaughter, Operation Cast Lead. To Israelis today, it's all of a piece, it's one story, one unbroken legacy of righteous victimhood.

The truth is that the State of Israel has never been a victim, and our likening of ourselves to the 6 million has been embarrassing from the beginning - but now? After what we did in Gaza? With the stranglehold we have on that society, while we over here live free and easy?

Victims? Lambs to the slaughter? Us?

No, this has gone beyond embarrassing; this is out-and-out shameful.

And, despite our excuses, it's not that we're "traumatized" by the past into believing that we're still weak, still the frightened, powerless Jews about to be led to the gas chambers. Many Holocaust survivors still believe this, and to some very limited extent, this vestigial fear still takes up space in the Israeli mind.

But by now, 64 years after the Holocaust, 42 years after seeing in the Six Day War how strong we'd become, we know, whether we admit it to ourselves or not, that we aren't the victims anymore. We know we aren't a continuation of the 6 million but rather a deliberate and stark departure from them.

THE REASON we tell ourselves and the world that we are victims is because we know, whether we admit it to ourselves or not, that victimhood is power. Victimhood is freedom. A victim can't be told to restrain himself. A victim fighting for survival can't be accused of abusing his power because, after all, his back is to the wall, he's desperate.

On the facts, it's very hard to convince ourselves, let alone the world, that Gaza and its Kassams have pushed Fortress Israel's back to the wall, that we're desperate, that we're struggling to survive. So, to convince ourselves and the world that this really is so, we do two things.

One, we refuse to acknowledge any facts that mar this image of ourselves as victims, and instead go over and over and over only the facts that fit the picture.

We talk only about the thousands of Kassams fired at Sderot; we never mention the thousands of Gazans we killed at the same time.

We talk only about Gilad Schalit; we never mention the 8,000 Palestinian prisoners we're holding.

And we never mention our ongoing blockade of Gaza or the devastation it does to those people.

The second thing we do to convince ourselves and the world that we're still victims is to never, ever, ever let go of the Holocaust - because that's when we really were victims. Victims like nobody's ever known, victims a million times worse than the Gazans.

Auschwitz, lambs to the slaughter. Remember us, the people of the Holocaust? That wasn't the Middle East's superpower you saw fighting in Gaza.

That was the 6 million.

So you can't blame us. We're immune from your criticism. We're the biggest victims the world has ever known. We're desperate, so don't tell us about kill ratios and disproportionate use of force and collective punishment. We're fighting for our survival.

This is what we tell ourselves and the world, and, in the face of what we did and are still doing in Gaza, it has become intolerable. We are not the 6 million. The 6 million were powerless Jews three generations ago; we cannot wrap our abuses of power in their tragedy.

Instead, let's take a good, hard look at what we did and what we're doing in Gaza. Then let's take a good, hard look in the mirror. And then let's admit who's the true victim here and now, and, more importantly, who isn't.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1256740787801&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

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The kill ratio was hundred thousands -to-0 civilians in our favor. The destruction ratio was much, much greater than that in Iraq and Afghanistan ....

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was that a rebuttal to the book

How to Influence People and Attain Success as a Victim - by Elie Wiesel

....or am i mimicking larry david taking a pee?

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Dave Bowman:
The normal procedure is to put quotes in quotes, which in this case would have immediately made obvious that these wonderful words were not yours, and that the accolades that I was about to bestow on you were not earned by you.

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The kill ratio was 100-to-1 in our favor

That easy enough to remedy; Thousands of you progressives can voluteer to go over there and be killed. That way everyone benefits - Israelis can no longer be accused of being brutal, Palestinians can feel like they gave as good as they got, progressives can feel like they helped the oppressed, and America can be rid of a lot of scum.

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The "our' in the "The kill ratio was 100-to-1 in our favor" statement from the Jerusalem Post. The best qualified candidates for moving from the US to Israel are those who cannot tell the difference between the two. If that applies to 80% of the U.S. Congress, good riddance.

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I wasn't being subtle and the difference is not important. I was letting people know what I thought of that argument and those who make it.

War isn't a tit for tat game in which its unfair to kill more of them than they kill of you. It's deadly serious, the object is to defeat the other in any way possible...and that's true even if you are not heavily outnumbered, as the Arabs outnumber the Israelis.

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By the way, the Jerusalem Post didn't write that article. Larry Derfner did. I know you're smart enough to know that...and stupid and dishonest enough to try to hide it.

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Hold your pathological insults especially when they are utterly irrelevant. Bowman's long extraction was from a published piece in the Jerusalem Post. It doesn't matter who wrote it, he was clearly addressing Israelis, not Americans. THAT was the point. It thus does not make sense to say, as your lame attempt at sarcasm did, that Israelis should "remedy" the lopsided slaughter of Palestinian children by "volunteering" to go "over there" (to Israel) to "be killed." They are already "over there."

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Derfner is a member of the peace camp (self-described as well as obviously) writing for the Jerusalem Post.

I couldn't find his bio but, from what I did find, I'd say he's an American leftie who only recently (within the last 5-10 years) moved to Israel.

What I read was written in English and didn't seem like a translation, and it appeared in the English language version of the Post. So, although the article is addressed to Israelis, the intended audience is far larger.

In any case, American progressives can make everyone feel better by following my advice. You first.

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It was your foolish (even as attempted irony) idea that killing more people is some kind of feasible remedy here, and you who has evident problems keeping Israelis distinct in your mind from Americans. If either us is to move to Israel, it should be you who puts his body where his mouth is. I might like to go there as a tourist someday, when that country again becomes part of the civilized world (as it approximately was circa 1980-2000), but I sure as hell know that I am an American not an Israeli.

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If either us is to move to Israel, it should be you who puts his body where his mouth is. I might like to go there as a tourist someday, when that country again becomes part of the civilized world

Well! Clifton Webb reincarnated. Don't forget to take the Rolls.

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Never heard of Clifton, but looked him up on Wikipedia. Sounds quite okay to me: talented on stage, honest, and probably never suffered any existential doubt or self-denial about which country he belonged to.

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Let's hope that J street can help "liberate the
80% of the U.S. Congress" from the Few Bad Jew Dominance.

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The whole US debate is beyond absurd. Our representatives want to debate whether the crushing Israeli tactics in a supposedly defensive war against rocket attacks from Gaza are justified, when those rocket attacks are themselves just miserably ineffective pinprick actions in a broader defensive war by the whole Palestinian people against an Israeli state that has been carrying out an extended campaign of aggression, occupation and colonization for decades. The bottom line is that the US Congress has made it clear that while Israelis may be credited with the human right to defend themselves against violence, there are no acts of Palestinian resistance to aggression that our own government will support. The House supports violent aggression and colonialism. Like the Israelis, it regards Palestinian Arabs as sub-human bugs.

The only bright spot in this nonsense is that the US Congress has a trust and credibility rating that falls somewhat below that of Tokyo Rose and Baghdad Bob. If our Congress asserts something, not only is the believability of what they assert immediately reduced to the laugh level, but the believability of the opposite of what they assert is immediately elevated and rendered more dignified.

My hope is that the House of Representatives now passes a resolution endorsing climate change denialism. It's the only way to reduce public doubts about the reality of climate change.

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Congressional Job Approval:
approve 24.8%
disapprove 66.4%
spread -41.6%
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/congressional_job_approval-903.html

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dgsdfsddf

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Milton Viorst describes the negative effects of the great '67 victory on Israeli society. The transformation from secular survivor to religious expanionist. He's wise enough, though, to point out that, due to Arab intransigence, peace was probably never an option.

Avishai introduced me to Yaacov Lozowick. I haven't yet read "Right of Return" but I will. Lozowick is my kind of guy. He recognizes that war is mean and cruel always, and Israelis are fighting a war and so are often mean and cruel. But he, like Viorst, realizes that Arab intransigence - their implacable hatred and cruelty - leave Israelis with no choice.

Unlike you, who he doesn't have his head up his ass.

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http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com/

I don't always agree with him. I find his defenses of Israel are often reflexive, as with his criticism of the other side. But he is clear headed, incisive, penetrating and eminently readable.

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Thanks,

I have not really paid much attention to Goldstone, figuring the whole thing is just political theatre, but Lozowick makes a good case for casting Goldstone as a shmuck.

In any war you can find war crimes but did Goldstone really expect to find that Israel was behaving like Rwanda or Serbia? Didn't he realize that many in the United Nations expected him to find just that and would do everything possible to make his report conform to their expectations?

Surely a man of his reputation and experience can't be that stupid but, since I'm not willing to do the research, I'll never know.

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"...since I'm not willing to do the research, I'll never know."

--Spider's Credo

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The good news is that J Street is opposed to it.

But it seems that AIPAC and its friends walk all over J Street.


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Why is this surprising? 95% of the American people do not care one whit about Israel or Palestine as long as U.S. troops aren't being deployed there; and of the 5% who do care, most of the Members of Congress whom you revile long ago determined that a clear majority of their constituents, and their campaign contributors, favor Israel's position over the Arabs, even with J Street's success in attracting some--by no means all-- younger Jews who oppose the Likud's policies.

I invite you to go door to door in Bethesda and Silver Spring, or Larchmont and Scarsdale, or West Hollywood and Studio City, and ask how many of the respondents who answer you will say they definitely will vote against liberal Democratic Representatives Chris Van Hollen, Nita Lowey and Henry Waxman because each Representative is going to support the resolution slamming Goldstone's report as biased, or because each Representative would strongly oppose conditioning U.S. aid to Israel on the Government of Israel doing what Obama wants.

If you want to change Congressional policy on I/P issues that you despise, you will have to persuade millions of Americans who have never cared about those issues to get really vocal. Not gonna happen.

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The more I consider the proposed resolution, the more I understand why its crticisms of the Goldstone report are not limited to the U.S. Congress but are similar to concerns expressed in many other nations, including those who believe Israeli actions in Gaza deserve further investigation. This is not to say that the resolution is unbiased, but rather that like the Goldstone report, and like this post and comments, its biases illustrate the need for an objectivity on all sides that is so far seriously lacking. By objectivity, I don't necessarily mean neutrality, but rather an attempt to draw conclusions based on evidence.

Not to belabor the point, but I've already suggested that the best means for readers to assess this is to read the source materials themselves rather than what we here say about them. I do, however, have one further point that I see as symptomatic of the unfortunate tendency of something like the Goldstone report to reinforce anti-Israeli bias that is already widespread among many UN member states.

This is probably not the fault of Goldstone, who appears to have made an honorable attempt to carry out his mission, or at least, I'm not aware of reasons to judge otherwise. Rather, it reflects the misuse of the report by others. Goldstone has defended his report by stating that he saw his assignment as comparable to that of a prosecutor asked to develop the strongest case possible against an accused party. He insisted that he was not expected to be the judge who examines all sides and comes to a conclusion based on the entirety of evidence. In other words, what he issued were allegations and not a judgment.

Unfortunately, his expectations may have been naive, because if one looks at the propaganda emanating here and elsewhere from the report (including conspicuously on TPM), the Goldstone report is clearly being touted as exactly what Goldstone claimed it not to be - a judgment.

Unfortunately, the world in general, and the UN in particular, do not operate like a legal system in a democracy. Rather, political and national interests, prejudi ces, and even hatreds determine which perceived transgressions deserve be judged and which should be ignored. In that sense, the choice by the UN of Israel as a target for prosecutorial attention in the face of more serious and obvious targets elsewhere is an egregious example of how selective application of judicial analogies can lead to profound injustices.

This site, and others, should remain legitimate forums for examining and criticizing the actions of Israel, Palestinian jihadists, Al Qaeda, the U.S., the Taliban, Rwanda, Brazil, Zimbabwe, Darfur, Iran, and many other regions and regimes where innocent people have suffered and died from actions conducted or supported by the state. However, until the discussants are willing to distinguish between allegations and judgments, it will be hard to distinguish credible criticisms from ones that lack credibility.

The most unfortunate consequence will be that credible criticisms will be taken less seriously than they deserve.

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Thank you for a well-reasoned argument. I'm sure other readers will feel the same.

But it won't affect Rosenberg, who will continue to post his drivel. I think we should all thank him for being the worst his side has to offer, thus giving us an easy target.

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Well-reasoned argument from Fred? That WOULD be news.

In this case, when Fred writes ". . . Goldstone, who appears to have made an honorable attempt to carry out his mission, or at least, I'm not aware of reasons to judge otherwise . . ." it's obvious that Fred hasn't taken his own advice and read the source document (H. RES 867) which is full of negative BS on Goldstone.
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You are such a sophist. OF course the Goldstone Report is being trumpeted as a "judgment." There never is going to be a trial. You can't sabotage the legal process and then claim that you weren't convicted.

The fact that Israel is so desperate to avoid a trial is strong evidence of its consciousness of guilt.

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the choice by the UN of Israel as a target for prosecutorial attention in the face of more serious and obvious targets elsewhere is an egregious example of how selective application of judicial analogies can lead to profound injustices

In general ,I appreciate your rational approach but not that argument , used in the 30s to deflect criticism of Hitler on the grounds that Stalin was worse ; and in the 70s by to defend the Khymer Rouge's right to represent Cambodia in the UN.


Every Israeli who died in Siderot was a victim of an Hamas stategy of waging war by random killing of enemy civilians.

Gazans who died when it was impossible for the IDF otherwise to attack a target , were collateral damage.

But those who died because Israel had decided- in Sharon's words-if we hit them hard enough ,they'll give in were victims of an IDF strategy of waging war by the random killing of enemy civilians.

I haven't read the UN Goldstone

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The last sentence should have read

I haven't read the UN report but I found Goldstone admirable in his Moyers' interview

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Flavius - I don't advocate sparing Israel or anyone else from criticism. The UN's selective vilification of Israel is something else again, particularly in light of its efforts to prejudge the issue. What I object to is the extraordinary level of imbalance, based on widespread anti-Israeli sentiments, including sentiments expressed by some of the most cruel and repressive regimes on the face of the earth. To use your analogies, some of the atrocities committed in recent years by the worst offenders may have been comparable in savagery and intent, if not in scope, to those of Stalin and Hitler, but Israel, despite its faults, does not belong in their company.

Beyond that, as I stated above, I view attempts here to interpret the Goldstone report as a judgment against Israel, despite his statement that it consisted not of a judgment but of allegations, as evidence for an unfortunate level of bias.

Let the criticisms continue, but with a sense of fairness that forbids any of us to decide in advance what conclusions we want to reach and then search for only those allegations that support our position.

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Let the criticisms continue, but with a sense of fairness
. Then there is nothing to talk about.
After all, as Col. Richard Kemp courageously told the UN Human Rights Commission last month, the Israel Defense Forces “did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare” during its operation in Gaza this past January. And Kemp, a former commander of British forces in Afghanistan who also served in Northern Ireland, Bosnia, and Iraq, is certainly in a position to make comparisons. Hence, if Israel’s actions in Gaza are deemed war crimes, there is no military action it could take against Palestinian terrorists that wouldn’t be. Avoiding civilian casualties entirely is not possible when terrorists operate, as the Palestinians do, from the heart of a civilian population

So far nobody has disputed with cont-examples the basic observation that "Israel did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare”

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Kemp is a spokesman for a Jersualem Think Tank. Bias?

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Fred, why are you refereeing arguments here when you said we shouldn't, above?

However, all who review these sources can draw their own conclusions in preference to refereeing arguments here.

Methinks you speak nonsense with a forked tongue.
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Was he on his high school student council? All of Fred's posts smack of manipulation. Of course, he's referring debates. It's called building credibility. It makes him sound reaonable and open-minded. Yada, yada, yada.

Fred's like John Meachem from Newsweek who always chimes in with the "objective" position, which usually mirrors the talking points of the status quo.

The irony is that regardless of how wrong the status quo is, these pundits never pay a penalty for trumpeting it.

There is a lesson there. Unfortunately.

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This is a response both to Anna and to Flavius above Anna's comment.

Flavius stated the following: "But those who died because Israel had decided- in Sharon's words-if we hit them hard enough ,they'll give in - were victims of an IDF strategy of waging war by the random killing of enemy civilians."

I see this charge as worth investigating, but with several constraints in mind.

1. I believe that in any large scale military conflict ever waged in the history of the human species, atrocities inflicted on the innocent have occurred. Their existence is not an indictment of a society but of those who committed them.

2. In some cases, the perpetrators have been individuals, and in others groups acting under the instruction of low level commanders (as in Vietnam). In other cases, governments themselves have been the perpetrators. The accusations of war crimes leveled against Serb leaders Karadzic
(on trial) and Mladic (on the run) are examples of hundreds or even thousands of civilians rounded up, lined up in a field, and shot to death.

3. Israel has been accused of involvement at the governmental level, but to my knowledge, that accusation has not been sustained, even though atrocities at the individual or small unit level may well have occurred. Despite Anna's description of safeguards for Gazans, it's my understanding that the IDF wanted most to safeguard its own soldiers against death, and even more importantly, against capture. This may well have led to a policy of "shoot first, ask questions later" - a claim requiring much scrutiny - but it does not automatically translate into an IDF policy of deliberately targeting innocents who were known to pose no threat whatsoever. Until the latter is proved, a presumption of innocence on that particular charge is required. Similar distinctions are required between claims of reckless targeting that resulted in unacceptable "collateral damage" and deliberate targeting aimed specifically at innocents as an IDF policy. It would be deplorable to accept allegations as proof in any of these instances.

Although I may not agree with Anna that the Israeli incursion into Gaza was extraordinarily scrupulous, I see little reason at this point to conclude that it was criminal or unusually malicious in intent at the governmental level. This distinguishes the Israeli effort from many other conflicts in which the role of the government in atrocious behavior appears to be well documented. The anti-Israel sentiment within many UN member nations guilty of many abuses of their own gives little credence to the belief that justice is at the heart of current attempts to focus on Israel.

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This is a response both to Anna and to Flavius above Anna's comment.

Flavius stated the following: "But those who died because Israel had decided- in Sharon's words-if we hit them hard enough ,they'll give in - were victims of an IDF strategy of waging war by the random killing of enemy civilians."

I see this charge as worth investigating, but with several constraints in mind.

1. I believe that in any large scale military conflict ever waged in the history of the human species, atrocities inflicted on the innocent have occurred. Their existence is not an indictment of a society but of those who committed them.

2. In some cases, the perpetrators have been individuals, and in others groups acting under the instruction of low level commanders (as in Vietnam). In other cases, governments themselves have been the perpetrators. The accusations of war crimes leveled against Serb leaders Karadzic
(on trial) and Mladic (on the run) are examples of hundreds or even thousands of civilians rounded up, lined up in a field, and shot to death.

3. Israel has been accused of involvement at the governmental level, but to my knowledge, that accusation has not been sustained, even though atrocities at the individual or small unit level may well have occurred. Despite Anna's description of safeguards for Gazans, it's my understanding that the IDF wanted most to safeguard its own soldiers against death, and even more importantly, against capture. This may well have led to a policy of "shoot first, ask questions later" - a claim requiring much scrutiny - but it does not automatically translate into an IDF policy of deliberately targeting innocents who were known to pose no threat whatsoever. Until the latter is proved, a presumption of innocence on that particular charge is required. Similar distinctions are required between claims of reckless targeting that resulted in unacceptable "collateral damage" and deliberate targeting aimed specifically at innocents as an IDF policy. It would be deplorable to accept allegations as proof in any of these instances.

Although I may not agree with Anna that the Israeli incursion into Gaza was extraordinarily scrupulous, I see little reason at this point to conclude that it was criminal or unusually malicious in intent at the governmental level. This distinguishes the Israeli effort from many other conflicts in which the role of the government in atrocious behavior appears to be well documented. The anti-Israel sentiment within many UN member nations guilty of many abuses of their own gives little credence to the belief that justice is at the heart of current attempts to focus on Israel.

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sorry for the double post.

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It's my understanding that the IDF wanted most to safeguard its own soldiers against death, and even more importantly, against capture This may well have led to a policy of "shoot first, ask questions later" - a claim requiring much scrutiny
There is no need for any scrutiny. Of course safeguarding its own soldiers against death and capture and a policy of "shoot first, ask questions later" is the standard in history of warfare. So far, in the history of humankind, there has been no way to conduct a war.
Although I may not agree with Anna that the Israeli incursion into Gaza was extraordinarily scrupulous

Do you have any example that contradicts Richard Kemp a former commander of British forces in Afghanistan who also served in Northern Ireland, Bosnia, and Iraq who told the UN Human Rights Commission last month

the Israel Defense Forces “did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare” during its operation in Gaza this past January.

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Anna doesn't appear to notice two things:
(1) Richard Goldstone produced a 500+page report that contradicted Kemp's assertions, and
(2) Kemp's testimony was pure pontification i.e. Kemp did not substantiate any of the examples that he produced to "support" his assertion.

Just one example: Kemp referred to letter-drops and phone calls to FLEE! FLEE! as evidence that the IDF was safeguarding civilian lives.

Yet that civilian popln was already surrounded by the IDF and, therefore, could not flee.

So, in short: the IDF attempted to absolve itself of legal responsibility by offering advice that it knew could not be followed.

Yet Kemp regurgitated that IDF claim when he could easily have discovered for himself that the claim was bogus.

In that regard I'll compare the IDF's actions with the Second Battle of Fallujah, where the US Marines surrounded the city and then waited until the civilian popln had left before beginning their assault.

That, clearly, is a example of the US Marines doing "more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone" than the IDF.

Because during Cast Lead the IDF circled Gaza City for three weeks lobbing shells into city, even as it demanded praise for "warning" the inhabitants that the bombs were heading their way....

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You have to out of your mind to compare favorably Second Battle of Fallujah to the Gaza war.
While Fallujah was much smaller than Gaza, the number of civilians killed 6000 in Fallujah vs. 900 in Gaza and the amount of houses destroyed, 30.000 homes were destroyed or badly damaged in Fallujah vs. 4,000 homes were destroyed or badly damaged in Gaza.


Fallujah suffered extensive damage to residences, mosques, city services, and businesses. The city, once referred to as the "City of Mosques", had over 200 pre-battle mosques of which 60 or so were destroyed in the fighting. Many of these mosques had been used as arms caches and weapon strongpoints by Islamist forces. Perhaps half the homes suffered at least some damage. Of the roughly 50,000 buildings in Fallujah, between 7,000 and 10,000 were estimated to have been destroyed in the offensive and from half to two-thirds of the remaining buildings had notable damage.[17][18]
While pre-offensive inhabitant figures are unreliable, the nominal population was assumed to have been 200,000–350,000. One report claims that both offensives, Operation Vigilant Resolve and Operation Phantom Fury, created 200,000 internally displaced persons who are still living elsewhere in Iraq.[19] Reports claim that up to 6000 civilians died throughout the operation.[20] While damage to mosques was heavy, Coalition forces reported that 66 out of the city's 133 mosques had been found to be holding significant amounts of insurgent weapons[21].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah
You have to find a better example.

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Your reply is a non-sequitor, AnnaA.

You originally asked if there are examples of an army doing "more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone", and I gave you one: the US Marines prior to the 2nd battle of Fallujah NOT ONLY told the civilians to leave BUT ALSO did not begin their assault until all the civilians who were willing to heed that call had, indeed, left.

That is clearly doing much more than the IDF did in ringing up civilians and telling those civilians that they are about to be shot at EVEN AS the IDF was refusing to allow those civilians to flee.

That the 2nd battle of Fallujah still killed a large number of civilians has less to do with the comparative "humanity" of the US Marines versus the IDF that it does with the comparative fighting capabilities of their respective opponents i.e. at Fullajah the Marines fought a REAL battle against a REAL enemy force, whereas Cast Lead was not a battle at all, for the simple reason that there was only one real "opponent" in that "conflict".

You know, the one that insisted it had a right to conduct a turkey-shoot, and call it "self-defense".

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You're wrong, Johnboy, about Fallujah. Military age males -- "MAMs" -- were not allowed to evacuate Fallujah and then they were subjected to bombing, artillery (including white phosphorous) and free-fire from small arms. It was much more of a war crime than Gaza. So does that mean that Cast Lead shouldn't be investigated? No. We have to start somewhere and the world is not ready to take on US war crimes. Yet. Let's set a precedent here, then it might happen.

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Don is right, This is not about Israel, little satan, this is about US, big satan.

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DB: "Military age males -- "MAMs" -- were not allowed to evacuate Fallujah"

And NOBODY was allowed to evacuate Gaza City, and yet - somehow - Don Bacon considers the humanitarian efforts of the IDF to be the greater.

DB: " and then they were subjected to bombing, artillery (including white phosphorous) and free-fire from small arms."

Yeah, because they were in a war zone during a heated battle.

But this bears repeating: the Marines outside Fallujah did allow every person that they could identify as civilian to leave prior to the commencement of battle and, indeed, they delayed the commencement of that battle UNTIL they were satisfied that all the persons that they could identify as civilians had left.

DB: "It was much more of a war crime than Gaza."

No, it was not: the Marines went out of their way to evacuate everyone that they could identify as being a civilian, while the IDF not only prevented *anybody* from leaving Gaza City but shot at anyone attempting to leave.

I'll also point out that the Marines were under instructions that any male of military age who was NOT on a rooftop and was NOT near a window was to be considered a civilian, and that is very different from the "shoot first and sort out the bodies later" rules of engagement used by the IDF.

That the battle fought by the Marines was vastly more damaging because their opponents were a vastly more capable foe does not in any way belittle the effort that the Marine Corp put in to remove everyone that they could identify as a civilian before the battle commenced.

An effort that was conspicuously absent from the IDF's efforts during Cast Lead.

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I'll also point out that the Marines were under instructions that any male of military age who was NOT on a rooftop and was NOT near a window was to be considered a civilian, and that is very different from the "shoot first and sort out the bodies later" rules of engagement used by the IDF.

the truth was diffrent

The deliberate killing of civilians was a daily practice of American forces. Many children had to watch their parents being shot to death in front of them, or men who had to watch their children and their wives being killed."
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AnnaA: "the truth was diffrent"

Pontification.

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This not Pontification. This is the truth:

The deliberate killing of civilians was a daily practice of American forces. Many children had to watch their parents being shot to death in front of them, or men who had to watch their children and their wives being killed."

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AnnaA: "This not Pontification. This is the truth:"

After which AnnaA regurgitates nonsense presented BY the "brussels tribunal" TO the "brussels tribunal".

Err, AnnaA, your original statement was pontification, and you then attempted to claim otherwise by presenting someone else's pontification as "the truth".

Chinese whispers, anyone?

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That is clearly doing much more than the IDF did in ringing up civilians and telling those civilians that they are about to be shot at EVEN AS the IDF was refusing to allow those civilians to flee.
What're the sources of your information? If you believe Hamas propaganda, then you have to believe Al-Qaeda and other Iraqi insurgents propaganda.
The deliberate killing of civilians was a daily practice of American forces. Many children had to watch their parents being shot to death in front of them, or men who had to watch their children and their wives being killed."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=472
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OK, so AnnaA does not believe that the IDF besieged Gaza City, and AnnaA considers it to be a scurrilous lie that the IDF prevented anyone from leaving that besieged city, even as Israeli forces were dropping bombs and firing WP artillery shells into it.

Very well, AnnaA, I believe I can now throw the same challenge to you that you originally threw down regarding Kemp's testimony:
Do you have any examples that contradict me?

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People were allowed to leave Gaza city and any city in Gaza where Israel conducted the military operation. What are you talking about? THeye were told to leave and were given time to leave.

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AnnaA: "People were allowed to leave Gaza city and any city in Gaza where Israel conducted the military operation."

I asked for EVIDENCE, and AnnaA responds with PONTIFICATION.

AnnaA: "What are you talking about?"

I am talking about the IDF instigating a siege upon a city, and then refusing to allow the civilians of that city to evacuate.

Again, you need that refute that statement with evidence, AnnaA, not with pontification.

AnnaA: "THeye were told to leave and were given time to leave."

P.O.N.T.I.F.I.C.A.T.I.O.N.

Pontification is not evidence, AnnaA.

You believe that because you want to believe that.

Fine. But you do so insist that your opponents produce evidence whenever a claim is made that runs contrary to your beliefs.

It Is Now Your Turn: Where Is Your EVIDENCE That The IDF Allowed Anyone To Leave Gaza City?

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Where Is Your EVIDENCE That Marines Allowed Anyone To Leave Fallujah?

Hereis my evedence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War


The IDF also targeted homes of Hamas commanders, noting: "Destruction of hundreds of Hamas leaders' homes [is] one of the keys to the offensive's success. The homes serve as weapons warehouses and headquarters, and shelling them has seriously hindered Hamas capabilities."[93] Several high-ranking Hamas commanders were killed, including Nizar Rayan, Abu Zakaria al-Jamal, and Jamal Mamduch. The Hamas leaders often died along with their families in their homes. According to a Hamas spokesperson and Rayyan's son, the IDF warned Rayan, by contacting his cell phone, that an attack on his house was imminent.[94][95][96][97]
Destroyed building in Rafah, January 12, 2009Among IDF's measures to reduce civilian casualties were the extensive use of leaflets and phone messages to warn Palestinians, including families in high-risk areas and families of Hamas personnel, to leave the area or to avoid potential targets.[42][98][99][100] Israel used F-4 Phantoms to deliver more than 2 million leaflets urging the population to evacuate.[92] In a practice codenamed roof knocking, the IDF issued warning calls prior to air strikes on civilian buildings. Typically, Israeli intelligence officers and Shin Bet security servicemen contacted residents of a building in which they suspected storage of military assets and told them that they had 10–15 minutes to flee the attack.[101][102][81] At several instances, the IDF has also used a sound bomb to warn civilians before striking homes.[98] In some cases, IDF commanders called off airstrikes, when residents of suspected houses have been able to gather on its roof.[98] IAF developed small bomb that is designed not to explode as it was aimed at empty areas of the roofs to frighten residents into leaving the building.[42][99] Israel's military used low-explosive missiles to warn civilians of imminent attack and to verify that buildings were evacuated prior to attack.[92] Some of the attacks took place sooner than the warning suggested and many calls were not followed up with attacks.[103] The Israeli Government report notes that while the warning systems implemented by the IDF did not eliminate all harm to civilians, they were apparently effective, due to the fact that in many incidents aerial video surveillance by IDF forces confirmed the departure of numerous residents from targeted areas as a direct result of the warnings prior to the attacks. While Israel is not a party to the Protocol I, Israel however accepts its provisions as reflective of customary international law.[104]

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And back we go to the beginning.....

AnnaA is claiming (yet again) that because the IDF rang people to tell them to flee that this is "evidence" that the IDF was allowing them to flee.

This is exactly the same argument put forward by Kemp, and it suffers from exactly the same problem i.e. it is pointless telling people to flee a besieged city if you will not allow them to flee that besieged city.

It is like:
a) shooting at fish in a barrel while at the same time
b) yelling at the fish to get out of the way of the bullets.

It is important to stress this point, because AnnaA clearly does not understand it: I asked for evidence that the IDF WAS ALLOWING THE CIVILIANS TO FLEE, and all AnnaA did was repeat the mantra that the IDF was TELLING THEM TO FLEE.

Anyone with an ounce of commonsense will understand that they are not the same thing i.e. the IDF can yell "Flee! Flee! Flee!" as loudly as it wants and it means absolutely nothing if those people have nowhere to flee to.

In such a situation the cry to "Flee! Flee! Flee!" amounts to nothing more than an attempt to avoid CULPABILITY for a criminal act, and is not in any way an attempt to avoid COMMITTING a criminal act.

Here are some questions for you:
1) If the IDF was allowing the civilians to flee Gaza City then where was it putting them? What tent cities were the IDF erecting for those refugees, and where? What other places of refuge were the IDF directing them to, and who was running them?
2) If the IDF was allowing the civilians to flee Gaza City then how many wounded civilians was Israel evacuating through the Ezri crossing? And how did that compare to the number of wounded that were being evacuated through Rafah into Egypt?

I know the answer to all of those questions.

So does Kemp, which is why he made no mention of any of them in his exculpatory testimony.

But don't let me stop you, luvvie, so by all means have a stab at answering some of those questions.

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Here are some questions for you:
1) If the US was allowing the civilians to flee Fallujah then where was it putting them? What tent cities were US erecting for those refugees, and where? What other places of refuge were the US directing them to, and who was running them?
2) If US was allowing the civilians to flee Fallujah then how many wounded civilians was US evacuating to US for treatment ? And how did that compare to the number of wounded that were not sent to US?

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1) The US Marines were vetting the civilians who were leaving the city, and these were then housed in tent cities (principly to the west of the city, and near Habbaniyyah) established under the auspices of the Iraqi Red Crescent. They remained there (fed and safe) until the battle had finished, and which point they were allowed to return as and when it was safe for them to do so, their return being preceded by yet another vetting process by the Marines.
2) Injured civilians were treated by the US Marines, and were evacuated by both the US military and the IRC. I know of no accusation that the Marines prevented the IRC from evacuating wounded civilians.

I am assuming you are not seriously suggesting that wounded Iraqi civilians should have been flown several thousand miles to the USA when there were adequate medical facilities inside Iraq (unlike Gaza, where the medical facilities were themselves devastated by the IDF, meaning that the nearest FUNCTIONING facilites were inside Israel).

Now, AnnaA, your turn.

Because, as everyone must have noticed, AnnaA did not answer my questions......

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I am assuming you are not seriously suggesting that wounded Iraqi civilians should have been flown several thousand miles to the USA when there were adequate medical facilities inside Iraq
There were NOT adequate medical facilities inside Iraq. American soldiers were flown to Germany or US for treatment. In Fallujah, US leveled the city
Of the roughly 50,000 buildings in Fallujah, between 7,000 and 10,000 were estimated to have been destroyed in the offensive and from half to two-thirds of the remaining buildings had notable damage
In Gaza, very small % of buildings were destroyed or damaged. Most of Gazan could safely stayed in their homes or moved to nearby cities inside Gaza strip Due to Israel tactic, there were very few civilin deaths, just 114 women. THerefore the total civilian casualities are probably were less than 400-500 hundred people. There was no need for tent cities and so on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War#Casualties
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Yet Another Non-sequitor From AnnaA.

I keep asking her for evidence that the IDF allowed civilians to flee Gaza City in the same way that the US Marines allowed civilians to flee Fallujah.

And in reply AnnaA talks about how many buildings were destroyed in the Marine assault.

That is a N.O.N. S.E.Q.U.I.T.O.R.

AnnaA insists that the IDF *did* allow civilians to flee Gaza City, and when I ask her to produce her evidence she insists on talking about how many more buildings were knocked down in Fallujah than in Gaza City.

That is a N.O.N. S.E.Q.U.I.T.O.R.

Only one of us is actually "debating" here, and it isn't AnnaA.

AnnaA, get this through your skull: the battle of Fallujah was a REAL battle fought at division-strength. And an army division fighting a REAL battle creates REAL damage.

AnnaA, Cast Lead was not a REAL battle. It was a turkey-shoot by the IDF against an all-but-nonexistent opponent.

The most striking difference between the two was therefore not the scale of damage, but the fact that the Marines took great care to remove the civilians from the scene of that battle, whereas the IDF didn't really care *who* they were shooting at.

Which is understandable, considering that the IDF didn't really face an opponent of any worth, and so if they were going to shoot at anyone it was going to have to shoot at the civvies.

Because, rather obviously, if they didn't shoot at the civvies then they didn't really face anyone worth shooting at.

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A clarification:

I asked AnnaA for evidence that the IDF allowed the civilians inside Gaza City to flee that city (in the same way that the Marines besieging Fallujah delayed their assault until the civilians were evacuated), and in response AnnaA repeated her mantra regarding IDF leaflets and phone calls urging Gazans to flee.

I had assumed that those leaflets were urging the civilians to flee the city, but having re-read the relevent portion of the Goldstone Report I now realize that even that assumption was giving the IDF way too much credit.

They were urging the Gazans to move into the city centre i.e. they were urging the Gazans to move to the very areas that had already borne the brunt of the Israeli bombardment in the first week of the conflict.

Odd, isn't it, that the Gazans thought that taking up that suggestion might not be the wisest course of action.....

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There my answers at the bottom

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AnnaA: "There my answers at the bottom"

Close, but no cigar. AnnaA should have really replied with:
There, my answers are coming from my bottom.

At least that would be a nugget (sorry, couldn't resist) of truth from AnnaA.

Go on, AnnaA, there's always a first time....

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Johnny, see my comment elsewhere on the page regarding 8 year-old maturity level. Perhaps an overestimate by 2 or 3 years in the case of the exchange immediately above.

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Certainly civilians are killed in war. Certainly they are deliberately targetted in war. There is no way to otherwise characterize Hiroshima.Or Coventry. Or Siderot. Or the Israeli bombing of the Hezbollah section of Beirut.

As you say , in every war civilians are targetted irrespective of whether that safeguards the attacking miiitary. They are targetted as a way of causing the enemy to yield

Clausewitz was clear on that. Sharon was clear when he said "if we hit them hard enough they'll give up". It was an expression of an overall strategic view. If he'd said anything else that would have been cant. And Sharon scorned that.

Not that he was necessarily correct.Hamburg's contribution to the Nazi war effort increased after its saturation bombing.And Sharon contributed to the UN's anti Israeli bias when he directed the IDF to permit the Lebanese Christian militia to slaughter the women and children who remained Beiruts PLO camps after the fighter had evacuated to the Magreb.

On the other hand without Hiroshima, Hirohito wold not have joined the Japanese peace faction in July 1945.

Killing civilians usually works . Otherwise it wouldn't be done.

Pace Richard Kemp, Israel is neither better nor worse than in this regard than Hamas or Curtis Lemay of "Bomber Harris". It does what it thinks is in its interest and deserves neither praise nor censure for that. Like Hamas.

Who does deserve praise is Judge Goldstone

Pace Fred , the anti Israel positions of most of the UN on past issues is irrelevant when evaluating Goldstone's Inquiry.

Every Jew should be proud of him and all the rest of us should join in respecting his remarkable objectivity.

As it happens despite my immense respect for that objectivity ,I in fact disagree with his criticism of the IDF. And of Hamas. They are at War and in a War people behave like.... warriors. And like all warriors do whatever will help them win While sometimes attempting to posture as if they were behaving more humanely than their opponent.

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Are you sure you're posting to the right forum? That is an eminently sensible comment.

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As you say , in every war civilians are targetted
This is not true. I don't think this is true anymore. I don't think there are any evidence that US targeted civilians in any conflicts since Vietnam ir Israel targeted civilians in Gaza or the last Lebanon war. There reason is not so much due to some kind of moral superiority, but because every innocent civilian is a the weapon in the PR war against US or Israel. Even if you assume that targeting civilians could benefit Israel, the number of civilians was so small as to cause Hamas to yield. On a contrary, the only motivation for Hamas to start that war, was to cause Palestinian civilian casualties for the follow up PR war.


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I agree countries change from War to War. Perhaps out of morality , perhaps because that serves their interests.

Meanwhile their citizens make coffee in the morning , help their kids with the homework. And approve whatever is done to hurt the enemy.


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Even though armies are similar in many ways they are not the same. The American army entering Berlin was not the same as the Russian army doing the same thing, nor were either of them the same as the Germans entering Warsaw.

Your thoughts on that?

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I agree there are differences but they are differences of degree not differences of kind. Not that I deprecate differences of degree , this sounds horrible but-other things being equal- better to kill a hundred innocent Israelis in Siderot than 100,000 in Hiroshima.

That tasteless remark is clearly open to the rebuttal that the deaths in Hiroshima saved an even greater number that would have followed if the war had continued. We had already killed more than that in the fire bombing of Tokyo. Not that I say that in criticism. Even in retrospect I approve those decisions.

Every military has a mix of personality types in it. Working in the Post Office the next mail sorter described to me the (expletive deleted) Marines torturing prisoners in the Pacific. Visiting occupied Vienna I stood in front of the hotel used by the Russians ( 100 yards from the Bristol which was used by us). The guard at the
revolving door had a rifle over his shoulder No guards at the Briston). And looked to be about 19. A 4 year old kept going round and round in the door until the guard picked him up , set him in front of a non revolving door, patted him on his bottom and pushed him through.He didn't look terrifying.

I went to the Opera and at intermission a tall blond , long nosed russian officer was charming a cluster of well dressed Frauen. Looking like someone easier to imagine inSt. Petersburg than in Leningrad.

When Primo Levi was liberated he and his fellow prisoners were taken on an aimless elongated tour of Russia before returning home. On VE day the Communist soldiers to celebrate organized an amateur show precisely to entertain the mostly Jewish prisoners. Including the officers wearing make shift wigs. All making up in their good intention for their almost complete lack of talent.

Every country and ethnic group has its villains, psychopaths and officers willing to wear silly wigs to entertain the refugees. Wars empower the first two categories.

Who are often the most effective fighters.

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An army's behavior can best be seen in the way it treats its enemies.

During WWII the Germans fought the Russians in one way and the Americans and British in another. In turn, the Americans fought the Germans in one way and the Japanese in another. From this ones learns that the crucial factor is the relationship of the warring societies. Leadership and policy are secondary. That relationship is determined largely by religious and ethnic differences. Reviewing history one finds that this pattern is the general rule.

If we look now at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict we find that Muslims have regarded Jews the same way Hitler did at least since the '30s...and probably before that. Since the Arabs have never disavowed Haj Amin al Husseini it's reasonable to believe that their attitudes have not changed. Before 1967, Jews had a rather humane view of the Arabs; medieval, backward but not inherently inferior. All that changed after 1967 with the rise of religious Zionism and the concept of the land as holy and God-given. With each year Jews have increasingly adopted the mirror image of Arab views...so that now I think, without the brake of international censorship, they would slaughter each other to the last man, woman, and child.

It's really disgraceful that the Left can see only one side of this.

Flavius, your initial remarks led me to believe you were a highly intelligent, clear-headed individual. Subsequently, I've come to see you're just PTroub with better manners and less hysteria. Too bad.

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Working in a Jerusalem Post Office in the mid 40s Amos Oz's father found something by wealthy Palestinian and returned it. The Palestinian invited the Oz family to Tea at their lovely home. They had a pretty, well mannered daughter and the two kids warily tried to become friends which resulted in Oz disgracing himself in a tragi-comedy.

Soon the fighting began. When it was over Oz was able to walk by that house.It was empty. They never returned.

They never will. Nor will the Palestinians and the Israelis ever reconcile. The British defeated the Irish at the Battle of the Boyne. 450 years later the IRA fire bombed a Birmingham Pub killing working class civilians peaceably enjoying themselves. Chances are there were some Irish among them. The first IRA bombing when the Troubles resumed in 1970 was of a British Army installation. The killed several cleaning women. Mostly Irish.

The last was a bank in the City which my daughter occasionally visited. They killed a Lebanese news vendor.

In between was Bloody Sunday.

All people, of all ethnic groups , are capable of kindness to one another. And of doing horrible things. When they cease to see each other as an individual who found their lost wallet but as members of a group . Perhaps one that defeated them 450 years earlier.

I don't take sides.

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The question is what is to be done, given the existing attitudes.

The best strategy for the Israelis is to drive the Arabs as far away from them as possible, to take as much Arab land as possible. The best strategy for the Arabs is the reverse, to take back as much of the West Bank as possible, to weaken Israel as much as possible. Each side seeks to weaken the will of the other so that it can be destroyed.

Progressives have decided to endorse the 2 state solution. In the light of the above, this is not a neutral position...and will never be voluntarily accepted by the Israelis, regardless of their public negotiating position. They might be forced to accept if large numbers of American troops were stationed permanently along the green line, similar to what was done in Korea and post WWII Germany but that will never happen (and progressives don't support it, indicating their bias).

The one state solution is predicated on a reconciliation of the two peoples. I agree with you that that will not happen in the near future so this is a non-starter.

Nothing else has been proposed so the conflict will be resolved on the battlefield, unfortunately.

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I've several times proposed that ,in the context of a two state solution, we should garrison a meaningful US force there to provide the Isaelis with security against their understandable fear of attack from one or another of the neighbors
who understandably want to attack them.

Not that they can't defend themselves, they can. Otherwise I wouldn't make that proposal.You should only protect people who can protect themselves, Malaya not Vietnam; South Korea, not Afghanistan.

But any US force should only be there as a symbolic Maginot Line.Not for involvement in Israael's domestic relationship with its Palestinian citizens.

In parallel we should spend the $20 billion or so necessary to finance resettlement from the Palestinian camps.

Will this solve the problem ? No Nothing can. But there's a good chance it would provide a generation of relative peace as most Palestinians do what most people want to do , drink their morning coffee, read the papers and play with their children.

But ultimately there'll be a generation of young men whose testosterone will require them to feel the presence of Israelis on their land is a challenge to their manhood. So it will start all over again.

But take what we can get.

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"But ultimately there'll be a generation of young men whose testosterone will require them to feel the presence of Israelis on their land is a challenge to their manhood. So it will start all over again."

What a remarkably condescending and dunderheaded evaluation of the problem.

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It does sound condescending but its factual. Substitute whose patriotism for testosteroneif you like. One way or another the animosity between arabs and jews , like all the rest of the world's animosities can not be ended, only suppressed.

Most people need to bond with a particular group and part of bonding is creating some other group to which they can feel hostile. And maybe kill. Young men satisfy that by going to war, old men ,by cheering them on.

That doesn't mean that the cause for which they fight is always unjustified. Just that they're bound to fight irrespective of the ostensible justification on which they seize.

Surely you know that.

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JERUSALEM — The Israeli police said Sunday that they had arrested a 37-year-old American immigrant, a West Bank settler, and charged him in an array of killings and terrorist attacks over the last 12 years, including the murders of two Palestinians, the bombing of a leftist Israeli professor’s home and the maiming of a 15-year-old boy who belongs to a community of Jews who believe in Jesus.

The suspect, Jack Teitel, a father of four and a computer technician and Web site designer, was born in Florida, the son of a military dentist. He went back and forth between Israel and the United States starting in the 1990s, immigrating here in 2000. His parents followed a year later and live in a different West Bank settlement.

The murders with which he has been charged, of a taxi driver in Jerusalem and a shepherd south of the West Bank city of Hebron, took place in 1997. The attacks on the teenager and on the professor occurred last year.

Mr. Teitel is also charged with having attacked police officers on several occasions.

“This investigation has exposed a dark and dangerous world where human life was lost and people were injured against a background of ideological extremism,” said Dudi Cohen, Israel’s police commissioner. He said it had involved extensive cooperation between the police and the Shin Bet internal security force. The arrest occurred several weeks ago but was subject to a court blackout until Sunday.

Please tell us when Hamas last arrested the people who killed Israelis with their rockets.

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Investigations by Palestinian-rights advocacy group Yesh Din has found that 90 percent of police investigations of cases in which Israelis are suspected of committing offenses against Palestinians in the West Bank are left unsolved and are closed. [link]

i supposed that Jack Teitel, labeled as a serial terrorist in israel, will now have his house demolished.

waiting.....

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All this crap about Hitler and Stalin and Fallujah and the Man in the Moon is a pitiful waste of cyberspace space.

What the IDF and the Loser Israeli Triumvirate clique did in Gaza last January was brutal, disproportionate, outrageous, cynical, criminal, corrupt and incredibly cowardly. Period. No excuses, no saying Attila the Hun was even worse, filthy AIPAC trickery repeated a million times in billion deceit-base variations to the contrary notwithstanding.

The Gaza bloodbath was also NOT in the interests of most Israelis.

Most important of all, it was NOT in the interest of AMERICA.

If the US Congress says ANYTHING at all about Gaza that in any way shape or form excuses or belittles or tries to relativize this atrocity, it is acting like a bunch of ultra craven fools, casting shame upon our country, and the civilized world knows it.

All this is basic common sense to anyone following this mess with a reasonable amount of objectivity. This is not to say (because Anna or Spider or some similar 8 year old maturity level pathological liar will otherwise claim so) that all Jews are evil or that the Palestinians and Arabs have not frequently been guilty of much the same if not worse. But the Congress is not eternally kissing the asses of the most disgusting lying hypocritical Arabs on a regular basis is it?

THE only REAL QUESTION here is:
Will J Street, its organizers, or fellow-travelers DO anything about this idiocy?

I look forward to comments on THAT point only.

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What the IDF did in Gaza last January was brutal, disproportionate
Please describe another military tactic that could stop rocket attacks while being proportional.
The Gaza bloodbath was also NOT in the interests of most Israelis
Rocket attacks stopped. this was in the interests of all Israelis.
Will J Street, its organizers, or fellow-travelers DO anything about this idiocy
There is not to be done about idiots like you.
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I am assuming you are not seriously suggesting that wounded Iraqi civilians should have been flown several thousand miles to the USA when there were adequate medical facilities inside Iraq
There were NOT adequate medical facilities inside Iraq. American soldiers were flown to Germany or US for treatment. In Fallujah, US leveled the city
Of the roughly 50,000 buildings in Fallujah, between 7,000 and 10,000 were estimated to have been destroyed in the offensive and from half to two-thirds of the remaining buildings had notable damage
In Gaza, very small % of buildings were destroyed or damaged. Most of Gazan could safely stayed in their homes or moved to nearby cities inside Gaza strip Due to Israel tactic, there were very few civilin deaths, just 114 women. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War#Casualties Therefore the total civilian casualities are probably were less than 400-500 hundred people. There was no need for tent cities and so on.
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"In Gaza, very small % of buildings were destroyed or damaged."

Again, this must be stressed: the US Marines *TOOK* the city of Fullajah i.e. they didn't just stand outside it and toss bombs into it for three weeks.

TAKING a city with a division-strength assault causes massive damage, which is precisely why the US Marines delayed their assault until the civilians could leave.

The IDF did none of that; they bottled the civilian popln up inside Gaza City and then spent three weeks lobbing bombs and shells into it.

The scale of damage to buildings therefore MEANS NOTHING about the respective danger to the civilian population; the danger in Fallujah was much less because those civilians HAD BEEN REMOVED.

AnnaA: "Most of Gazan could safely stayed in their homes or moved to nearby cities inside Gaza strip"

Unreal. No, honestly, that statement is simply unreal.

The IDF dropped two million leaflets telling the civilians inside Gaza City to move into the centre of the city, and yet here is AnnaA telling us - without blushing - that Black is White, Night is Day, Up is Down, the Grass is Blue and the Sky is Green.

AnnaA: "Due to Israel tactic, there were very few civilin deaths, just 114 women. THerefore the total civilian casualities are probably were less than 400-500 hundred people."

926 civilians dead.

AnnaA: "There was no need for tent cities and so on."

No, you certainly don't need tent cities when you have the civilians bottled up inside a besieged city and you are refusing to let them leave.

Gotta agree with you on that one, AnnaA.

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From your questioning Johnboy4546 ,it seems that you suggest the following proper military tactics for Israel:
-Divide Gaza strip in half.
-Order all civilians to leave one half.
-Level that half.
-Build tent camps
-Order all civilian population to move to the tent camps.
-Level the rest of the Gaza strip.
-Still manage to kill 60 thousands civilians.

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AnnaA: "From your questioning Johnboy4546 ,it seems that you suggest the following proper military tactics for Israel:"

Then your assumption is incorrect, AnnaA.

The correct decision-making from Israel would have been to conclude that there is no way for the IDF to "win" inside the Gaza Strip without gross violations of the rules of war, and therefore slipping the IDF off the leash and sooling it onto the civilian popln of Gaza is A Very Stupid Idea.

Therefore the correct "tactics" for Israel would have been for Ehud Barak not to have sent the IDF into Gaza in Nov 4th on that provocative little search-and-destroy mission, and for Livni to have approached the Egyptians and asked them to broker an extension of the ceasefire that included the West Bank.

Cast Lead would therefore have been completely unnecessary, precisely because Israel would have had no reason to thrash the civilian popln of Gaza in a fit of pique.

You ask what the "correct military tactics" would have been, and the answer is simple: there were none, because Israel was attempting to use force to solve to a problem that had no military solution.

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Looking again at AnnaA's comment, and it becomes even more obvious that AnnaA does not understand the first principle of the use of force: define your goals BEFORE you start, so that you know when those goals have been reached.

Read AnnaA's "hypothetical" again and it becomes obvious that she has no idea what the goals of Cast Lead actually was other than, presumably, to cause as much damage to the Gaza Strip as possible.

You want to talk about "tactics" that serve no "strategy".

In short: mayhem for its own sake.

How Wonderfully Zionist Of You, AnnaA.

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Found on Senator Gillibrand's website:

September 29, 2009

The Honorable Hillary Rodham Clinton
Secretary of State
United States Department of State
2201 C Street NW
Washington, DC 20520

Dear Madam Secretary,

We appreciate the State Department publicly raising significant concerns about the United Nations Fact-Finding Mission led by Justice Richard Goldstone. We believe it is critical that the U.S. continue to work very hard to block any punitive actions against Israel that this report mentions, whether at the Security Council or other U.N. bodies. The loss of innocent lives is unfortunate wherever it occurs - in Israel or in Gaza. But this biased report ignores many of the key facts, and this should be recognized by the international community.

We commend the State Department statements criticizing the one-sided mandate directing the Goldstone report and highlighting the real causes of the war between Israel and Hamas. In particular, we are gratified that the Department has very serious concerns about the report's recommendations, including calls that this issue be taken up in international fora outside the Human Rights Council and in national courts of countries not party to the conflict. As the United Nations Human Rights Council moves toward a resolution on the Goldstone report, we trust you and your team will denounce the unbalanced nature of this investigation.

There are many serious flaws with the Goldstone report and the investigatory process. The Goldstone mission's mandate was problematic from the start. The fact that the mission exceeded this mandate by also criticizing some of Hamas' activities does not diminish the problem that the vast majority of the report focuses on Israel's conduct, rather than that of Hamas. The report further fails to acknowledge Israel's right to defend itself against terrorism and other external threats, a right of all UN Members under Article 51 of the UN Charter. The report ignores the fact that Israel acted in self-defense only after its civilian population suffered eight years of attacks by rockets and mortars fired indiscriminately from Gaza. Furthermore, the report does not adequately recognize the extraordinary measures taken by the Israel Defense Forces to minimize civilian casualties, which frequently put Israeli soldiers at risk.

As the State Department has stated, Israel is a democratic country, like the United States, with an independent judiciary and democratic institutions to investigate and prosecute abuses. The Israel Defense Forces have a reputation for investigating alleged violations of international law and its internal military code of conduct. As a law-abiding state, Israel is in the process of conducting numerous investigations for which it should be commended not condemned.

We hope you will succeed in your efforts to ensure that consideration of the report at the current meetings of the UN Human Rights Council will not provide an opportunity for Israel's critics to unfairly use the Council and the report to bring this matter to the UN Security Council.

Senator Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY)
Senator Johnny Isakson (R-GA)
Senator Charles Schumer (D-NY)
Senator Robert Menendez (D-NJ)
Senator Carl Levin (D-MI)
Senator Barbara Boxer (D-CA)
Senator Joe Lieberman (I-CT)
Senator Barbara Mikulski (D-MD)
Senator Mike Crapo (R-ID)
Senator Jon Kyl (R-AZ)
Senator James Risch (R-ID)
Senator Pat Roberts (R-KS)
Senator Evan Bayh (D-IN)
Senator Mark Begich (D-AK)
Senator Benjamin Cardin (D-MD)
Senator Susan Collins (R-ME)
Senator Jim DeMint (R-SC)
Senator Byron Dorgan (D-ND)
Senator John Ensign (R-NV)\
Senator Orrin Hatch (R-UT)
Senator Mike Johanns (R-NE)
Senator Tim Johnson (D-SD)
Senator David Vitter (D-ND)
Senator Roger Wicker (R-MS)
Senator Ron Wyden (D-OR)
Senator Russ Feingold (D-WI)
Senator Dan Inouye(D-HI)
Senator John McCain (R-AZ)
Senator Arlen Specter (D-PA)
Senator Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Senator John Thune (R-SD)
Senator Lisa Murkowski (R-AK)


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Let's hope that J street can help "liberate the Congress" from the Jewish Setlers Dominance. Do you agree with me, PTroub?

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J Street certainly has its work cut out for it in getting these Congress people the help they need with their serious collective blind spot.

Can anyone here provide a point-by-point rebuttal to this letter? Did Goldstone really say nothing at all about Israel's "right to defend itself" (not that slaughtering children is a form of defense)?

MJ, does your institute have the goods on this?

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Is this ever possible to use military force without "slaughtering children"?

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The Massacre of the Innocents

Herod

…Civilization must be saved even if this means sending for the military as I suppose it does. How dreary. Why is it that in the end civilization always has to call in these professional tidiers to whom it is all one whether it be Pythagoras or a homicidal lunatic that they are instructed to exterminate. O dear, why couldn’t this wretched infant be born somewhere else? Why can’t people be sensible…And suppose, just for the sake of argument that this story is true…….it would mean God had given me the power to destroy Himself. I refuse to be taken in. He could not play such a horrible practical joke. Why should He dislike me so ?......How dare he allow me to decide? I’ve tried to be good. I brush my teeth every night. I haven’t had sex for a month. I object. I’m a liberal. I want everyone to be happy. I wish I had never been born.

Auden


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Statement on J Street Position on Goldstone Report and H. Res. 867

http://www.jstreet.org/blog/?p=702

October 30th, 2009 11:03 am

Jeremy Ben-Ami, Executive Director of J Street, released the following statement regarding J Street’s position on the Goldstone Report and H. Res. 867:

J Street supports passage of a resolution by the U.S. Congress calling for the United States to oppose and work actively to defeat one-sided and biased action in the United Nations when it comes to Israel and the Goldstone Report.

We are not urging members of Congress to oppose H. Res. 867. We are urging thoughtful amendment of the Resolution before passage to bring it in line with the principles we articulate in our statement on the legislation.

J Street would support and urges passage of a balanced, thoughtful Congressional resolution urging strong US opposition against biased, one-sided actions regarding the Goldstone Report and the Israeli-Arab and Israeli-Palestinian conflicts.

J Street also echoes the call of many Israelis - including Deputy Prime Minister Dan Meridor, MKs Nachman Shai and Michael Eitan, and others - for an independent Israeli investigation into the allegations in the Goldstone Report. Only by undertaking an independent and credible investigation can Israel ensure that these matters are not left in the hands of international bodies that have traditionally demonstrated their bias against Israel.

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Reports on another letter, this one after the vote:

Goldstone report is 'emotive issue': Britain and France

17/10/2009

London - The leaders of Britain and France wrote to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu Friday acknowledging that a UN report on the Gaza war was "an emotive issue" and urging a moderate response from all sides.

[....]

In their letter, extracts of which were released by Downing Street, Brown and Sarkozy said: "We recognise that the Goldstone report is an emotive issue for Israel and the Palestinians.

"We want international discussion of the Goldstone report to be managed in a way that supports an improvement of the situation on the ground, including the security of Israel and the Palestinians, and the humanitarian situation in Gaza.

"We recognise Israel's right to self defence and are convinced that peace is the best guarantee for Israel’s and Israelis' security."

Brown and Sarkozy also called on Netanyahu to give humanitarian convoys access to Gaza, proceed with an independent probe into the conflict and share the findings, halt settlement activity in the Occupied Territories and resume negotiations along the lines laid out by the US.

The Goldstone report found that both Israel and Palestinian armed groups committed war crimes and possible crimes against humanity during the conflict.

It recommends the referral of its conclusions to the International Criminal Court prosecutor in The Hague if Israel and Hamas fail to conduct credible investigations within six months.

The report's author, Richard Goldstone, himself criticised the resolution, saying that unlike his report which it endorsed, the wording slammed only Israel and spared Hamas, the Palestinian Islamist rulers of the Gaza Strip.

AFP/Expatica

I don't see any possibility of influence of AIPAC on this one.

Overall, I see practical people thinking that a UN Human Relations one-sided circus bashing Israel alone, and raising horrifying war crimes testimony, won't get anyone anywhere on peace talks front but will instead make all parties involved dig in their heels further, poison the atmosphere, and perhaps even instigate more hostilities.

And I see J Street pushing for amendments to the HR that they think will help this type of diplomatic manuevering along.

This is not just about U.S. politics, it's about international diplomacy efforts, too.

Note the first two things J Street says in its position paper on amending the resolution:

J Street would be able to support a resolution that:

* Recognizes the history of bias against Israel at the United Nations, the flaws in the original mandate to the Goldstone Commission, and the dangers in pursuing resolutions in multilateral fora with a track record of anti-Israel bias;

* Condemns the series of one-sided resolutions adopted by the UN Human Rights Council....

I don't think them putting those two things at the top of their list are just serendipity.

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because Anna or Spider or some similar 8 year old maturity level pathological liar

Now, what do you really think about A & S?