Whose Israel is It?
I have spent the day in Washington, first at the Americans for Peace Now board meeting, where I am an officer, and later at the J Street conference, where I am a participant. I go to sleep tonight with this sentiment dancing on my brain: the promise of Israel needs to be embraced and supported, promoted and defended--fought for. That is not the case presently in much of American political discourse.
For me, Israel has always been about the promise of a Jewish identity that embraces social justice and otherness, that offers a safe haven for the Jewish people precisely because it is a state that embraces a notion of other-worldliness within its this-worldliness. But the Israel of today is not the Israel that I grew up yearning for; it is an Israel in dire need of a mid-century correction--and it is an Israel that --if we want a new generation to embrace--needs to change its own ideas of who it is and what it wants.
The J Street conference which has been the subject of much press and blogger debate is both a reunion of many of us who have fought for decades for an Israel that embraces democratic, Jewish and (yes, it is NOT a contradiction) pluralist and Jewish ideals and of young people, many presently in college, who are the product of youth movements, of Taglit/Birthright Israel or of their synagogues, who want to join into support for an Israel that supports their ideals. American Jewry remains the most liberal organized entity in American public life. We embrace ideals like human rights, pluralism and diversity. We cling to democracy as a way to defend our own rightful place in America's polity. And these are the values we want to see--but don't--in the Israel so many of us love.
The reason that I have spent decades suupporting the Peace Now movement in Israel is because for me, it holds the promise--the only promise--of nurturing and sustaining an Israel that becomes not just a light unto the nations, but perhaps even more importantly, a normal state--but a state that embraces democratic values by which it judges itself, the very same values that we, as Americans hold dear. This is something to be proud of, something worth fighting for. We can, as American Jews, cling to our particularism solely as a sign of separatism and in some cases, even superiority--or, we can promote our particularism as a way to weave into the pluralism that is America and we can, likewise, see ourselves and our Jewish future in a Jewish state that embraces the same values that we hold dear--democracy, support for human rights and the right to embrace your individualism. That is the essence of who we are as American Jews--it is why the American Jewish community still supports President Obama at a level of plus 74% and it is , in the end, what should guide us as a community when we support Israel-an Israel that supports values that are embedded in our Americanness and in our Jewishness.
Update: I continue this debate with Shmuel Rosner at JPost.com




















'an Israel in dire need of a mid-century correction' is an accurate assessment, although it maybe fails to convey the urgency of the present situation.
Many American Jews, and Jews throughout the worldwide Diaspora, were appalled and dismayed at the brutality of the Israeli forces in killing hundreds of civilians, in Gaza, including women and children. Subsequently further dismayed at the refusal of the Israeli government to co-operative in the UN investigation of alleged war crimes, and finally astonished at the attempt to discredit the independent South African jurist, Judge Goldstone, who carried out the report.
It would appear that the arrogance of the present government in Israel knows no bounds, and, as a British Jew, that is not only a matter for extreme concern, but also one of shame and sadness.
October 26, 2009 12:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
Appalled, dismayed, astonished, ashamed and sad by rogue behavior - but unwilling to do anything serious to counter this behavior.
October 26, 2009 12:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Nonsense, Why would Americans be dismayed at killing hundreds of civilians in Gaza but not be appalled and dismayed at the brutality of the American forces in killing many thousands of civilians, in Afghanistan, including women and children? There are few American Jews who hate Israel and will use any civilian casualties as an excuse to be appalled and dismayed at Israel.
October 26, 2009 1:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Jews throughout the worldwide Diaspora
What Diaspora? European Jews were toasted and roasted by the Nazis, or moved to Israel after the Soviet Union imploded. North African and Middle Eastern Jews are now citizens of Israel as well. Except for the United States there is now Diaspora. You progressives are about as observant as the dead.
October 26, 2009 5:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
Jesus H. There are 2 million Jews in Europe. You ever been to Paris or Budapest or London? Do the Jews of such countries count spider?
October 26, 2009 8:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
The usual answer is some variant of Europe is nothing but Nazis, collaborators, Moslem-terrorists, and Moslem-terrorist-appeasers, but perhaps Spider can spin the Likudnik Warsaw Ghetto mentality somewhat more creatively in answer to your query, FZ.
October 26, 2009 9:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, London's Jews escaped massacre. Those of Paris didn't or those of Budapest. Where are those 2 million you're talking about? Where do they live? Where are the Jews of the Soviet Union, of Poland, of North Africa, or the Middle East?
October 26, 2009 10:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Spider, what the h*ll is your problem? Are you for real? Anyone who has been to Le Marais in Paris has seen many orthodox Jews walking around. It's famous as a Jewish district.
I can't believe I'm doing your work for you: http://www.ajcarchives.org/AJC_DATA/Files/AJYB615.CV.pdf
Pro-tip to spider: read something other than Newsmax.
October 26, 2009 11:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
A few Orthodox Jews walking around is not the same thing as a vibrant Jewish community...but, you're right, France has a lot more Jews than I thought. And their rights are secure...as they are in England, Canada, and the United States. I don't know about Russia and the Ukraine, or about Argentina and Brazil.
October 26, 2009 11:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Slight rounding error, FZ. 1.5 mil., per page 15 of your pdf. Those fixed on Europe defined as a permanent Warsaw Ghetto may have pre-bronze-age ideas of counting, but for those of us adhering to post King George III 3rd grade arithmetic, accuracy is appreciated.
October 26, 2009 11:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population
There are more Jews in England, France, the former Soviet Union, Canada, Brazil, and Argentina then I thought. I stand corrected.
October 26, 2009 11:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
This post typifies why I have zero confidence in the ability of J Street to bring about any significant change of any kind in either Israeli behavior or US-Israel relations. We have four paragraphs above about the author's personal feelings, yearnings, sentiments, dreams and ideals, and her precious sense of "identity", without the slightest hint of, or preparedness for, an actual plan of difficult political action.
As far as I can tell at this point, J Street isn't even an real political action organization. It's just an exercise in meaningless old-school boomer identity politics: a comfortable new club and retreat for middle-aged liberal Jews where they can go to "embrace their identities" and reminisce about those optimistic good old days, and the fuzzy and friendly Zionism-for-kids they experienced in Hebrew school, Jewish summer camp, and Israel's youth exchange programs. These big kids have now grown embarrassed over the unattractive face of the real-world Israel and the real-world US movement that supports it, and they want some new clubhouse to hang out in that is less embarrassing than the old one. Then they can put J Street bumper stickers on their cars, and say, "Look at me! I'm in J Street - not that mean old other lobby. So don't blame me!"
They can also then go about their business of doing absolutely nothing to stop Israel from doing whatever the hell it wants to do. We're all still waiting for MJ to tell us what coercive measures he is willing to support to change the behavior of an Israeli polity that is completely disinclined to change on its own. That non-committal stance is unsurprising, because the J Street formula for recruiting new members seems to be based on a tacit guarantee to the new recruits that they will never be called upon to support putting any actual teeth into a tougher US policy toward Israel, but that the tougher line will only be in the feel-good talk department.
Maybe they plan to get together to sing campfire songs in the general direction of Israel. A few verses of "Make Those Waters Part" might do the trick.
You know why 74% of American Jews support Obama? They see in him a kindred spirit: a weak, risk-averse, go-along tool who will wag his finger at Israel from time to time, but has not the slightest intention of doing anything serious about its rogue behavior, and who lacks the moral fortitude to confront outlaw behavior, or to see anything through even if he makes noises about confronting such behavior for a day or two. Obama actually seems to pride himself on being the guy standing between the powers that be and real progressive change, and has surrounded himself with a team comprised of the same Clinton-era retreads who helped get us into our current messes. His irritation with and contempt for the left are more apparent every day. His posture toward Israel is the same as his general posture toward banks, insurance companies and other powerful institutions: bent over submission, fear of confrontation and an eagerness to please.
The post uses the word "embrace" seven times and "cling" twice, which bespeaks more a childish emotional yearning for some lost teddy bear than a grown-up commitment to a rugged political agenda. But the rest of America can't afford to sit around and wait while liberal American Jews work out their Rosebud complexes toward the lost Israel of their youth - a country that never actually existed outside coloring books and other Zionist youth propaganda.
October 26, 2009 1:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
MJ to tell us what coercive measures he is willing to support
He's willing to fight to the last Christian soldier. He's told you that repeatedly. I don't know why you're confused.
October 26, 2009 5:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh thanks for filling me in, spider. The link, please?
October 26, 2009 7:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Rosenberg has said, repeatedly, on this forum that neither he nor his family would fight in any of America's "stupid wars". But he wants to pressure Israel...so who's going to do the fighting if it comes to that?
Rosenberg spent his last few threads trashing Lenny Ben David, a former longtime colleague and friend from his AIPEC days. Ben David made aliyah where he and his family fought for what they believed in (his oldest son was wounded in battle). Ben David has a very, very low opinion of Rosenberg which is worth reading. It was published in the Jerusalem Post. You can Google it (I posted the link on a previous thread).
October 26, 2009 11:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
what dan k said!!!
October 26, 2009 8:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe I'm hindered by a good education and an understanding of logic, but how can you have "pluralism" and a "Jewish state"?
You can have a a predominantly Jewish society--i.e., BA's "The Hebrew Republic--but that comes about by the assimilation of the minority and cultural atractiveness of the predominant culture.
In America, we have a predominant Anglo-Saxon culture, but you don't have have to an Anglo-Saxon to be president or to enjoy full and equal civil rights.
October 26, 2009 10:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe I'm hindered by a good education and an understanding of logic, but how can you have "pluralism" in any Arab majority state?
October 26, 2009 11:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Echo?
I think a copier is less derivative than you.
October 26, 2009 12:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
She's asking you a real question; How can you hold Jews to one standard and Arabs to another? An ad hominem is not a proper reply, you snotty shit.
October 26, 2009 1:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
He has no reply but an ad hominem.
October 26, 2009 2:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Because the other Arab States are not occupying Palestine, nitwit.
When the other Arab states start screwing over my wife's family as much as Israel does on a daily basis, then I'll focus on their short comings.
Have a nice day.
October 26, 2009 4:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
the other Arab States did occupy Palestine before 1967
October 26, 2009 4:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, and William of Normandy also invaded England in 1066. Are you capable of forming any argument unrooted in the proposition, "I know you are, but what am I."
October 26, 2009 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
There are few Americans who think that US is the Great Satan and Israel is the Little Satan. But they don't represent the rest of America that likes Israel, thank you very much,
October 26, 2009 11:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Dan K:
Thank you, that was a brilliant and spot-on critique. No neo-con could have said it better. I would love to see MJ's response. The only caveat I have is that 78% (not 74%) of American Jews voted for Obama for nothing to do with Israel - just as American Jews always vote Democract 70-80% of the time. I will concede, however, that the 20% or so who voted for McCain were voting primarily on Israel issues.
October 27, 2009 12:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
October 26, 2009 1:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that slaughtering Gazans was not just a project of the Israeli leadership, but had broad-based democratic support in Israel.
October 26, 2009 7:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that slaughtering Afghanis Iraqis was not just a project of the American leadership, but had broad-based democratic support in US.
October 26, 2009 10:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that mindlessly cutting-and-pasting other people's posts and then substituting in a few words is appalling, but I can't help myself.
In Soviet School we had to copy everything by hand. And since the school couldn't afford heating...my hands got very cold.
So now I cut-and-paste all day.....I love the EWE-ESZZZ-AAAY.
October 26, 2009 12:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with you about the American public, AnnaM.
But it's bizarre how Israelis always think they they can tweak American lefties by making the "no worse than America" argument. If you are claiming that US behavior is a model for Israeli actions, then I regard that as a confession, not a defense.
October 27, 2009 7:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Israel was never a normal country - you are right. From the earliest massacres in Palestinian villages in 1947 by the LEHI and Irgun gangs, the Zionist dream of Herzl was stillborn.
Arguably, however, it is the Diaspora that is culpable. In America and England, Jewish communities have for more than half a century given the thugs and the politicians, the power and money-hungry, pseudo-Zionists in Israel, a free hand to do whatever they wished. For 60 years Jewish communities around the world have collected monies from children and adults to send to the JNF, without ever once carrying out any audit of what those monies were used for or to whom they went.
Corruption became embedded and endemic in Israeli political circles but still they sent emissaries to the US and the UK to further replenish their personal coffers. And smilingly the ex-colonels and brigadiers took the money and scurried back home to distribute it - but with no audit trail.
And the Diaspora pledged its continued allegiance and endorsed every dubious decision of the Knesset with never any criticism - for naively they still believed, as today, that Israel can do no wrong.
Even when presented with independent, substantiated evidence that the IDF killed 320 children - they STILL believe the propaganda that these children were used as human shields - notwithstanding the evidence that it was the IDF that used Palestinians as human shields.
In such a fevered attitude of misplaced loyalty, it is impossible to effect a shift in the paradigm that suffuses the Jewish mind in New York or north-west London. With the exception of the new generation of American, Jewish students, many of whom can see thru the propaganda and make their own judgement based on the evidence. They must be our hope for the future and for the future of Israel.
October 26, 2009 2:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
US was never a normal country - you are right. From the earliest massacres in Indian villages to slaughtering Germans in WW2 as well as Afghanis and Iraqis in the war on terror ....
October 26, 2009 10:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
A normal country is one which seizes the land of its enemies and mistreats and massacres its minorities - especially if they're fighting a war and enemies and minorities are indistinguishable.
Where the fuck were you so badly uneducated?
October 26, 2009 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry Anna, this was directed at Colindale.
October 26, 2009 3:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Freudian slip?
(Spider to self: "I'm so outraged I can't control my fingers.")
(AnnaA to self: "I wish someone would type something interesting so that I can cut and paste it.")
October 26, 2009 4:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've been alternatively amused and amazed at the sorts of "defenses" of Israel I've been seeing in recent months. Actually, it started with Benny Morris a few years ago, when he said America had the right to ethnically cleanse the Native Americans and this was why it was okay for Israel to do the same thing. Now we've got you and Anna defending Israel on the same grounds--Anna also adds that the US has probably killed many more civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Fine with me if you want to use this argument. I'd like Americans to start facing up to our own war crimes, though you and Anna really want us all to embrace our inner war criminal. The motivation behind this, of course, is the understanding that the last thing US officials would support would be any precedent that might be used against them--they're not going to support war crimes trials for Israeli officials if there is any chance US officials might be next.
October 26, 2009 5:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I presume you live in America and are not of amerindian descent. Go back to the land of your ancestors and then get back to me with your ridiculous arguments.
October 26, 2009 8:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
October 26, 2009 10:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Those children died as a fully anticipated side effect of a shock and awe demo designed to win voters away from Netanyahu. A bad theory for Barak and Olmert and Livni, but more especially for those Gaza families who have since buried the remains of their blown up kids, and for the members of the US Congress whose everlasting shame is the condoning of this horror. And before resorting to one of your typical Kindergarden inversion retorts, try aspiring first to a high school level research report on the U.S. "settlers" hunkered down in their promised land in Iraq or Afghanistan, and identify therein the non-US government of a country 40 times the US's size that a lying and thieving US settler lobby is putting the screws on repeatedly.
October 26, 2009 11:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
A real shock and awe demo in Iraq killed many thousands children.
October 26, 2009 12:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Breaking news to Anna who hasn't misbehaved enough here yet to be booted: 2 wrongs do not make a right.
October 26, 2009 12:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Breaking news to PTroub. No country is perfect, But some less wrong and some are more wrong. Tell me what % of counties in the world are less wrong than Israel.
October 26, 2009 1:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
A dumb question. And insulting to Israelis, Does Israel compare itself Rwanda, Burma, Central African Republic, Haiti?
Here's a better question: In the name of which foreign countries is the more deceit-based interference with the US Congress than in the name of Israel?
Still better, ala Battle of the Bulge: Who were Yankees starting pitchers in the 1963 World Series?
October 26, 2009 1:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
to US in Iraq NATO countries in Afghanistan, and NATO countries in Yugoslavia.
It's an old news.
http://www.rense.com/general59/sdom.htm
October 26, 2009 2:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are indulging your strange paranoia, not answering the most important question posed. The Dodgers late of Brooklyn in '63 had Drysdale and Koufax (Jewish by the way and one of the all-time greats in baseball). Who did the Yankees put up against them?
October 26, 2009 6:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've answered your question, a Jew hater:
"Here's a better question: In the name of which foreign countries is the more deceit-based interference with the US Congress than in the name of Israel?"
Was my answer clear?
October 26, 2009 7:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well not to get involved or anything, and without peaking, was it Whitey Ford, Jim Bouton, and Ralph Terry? I do know the Yankees were swept in four, although I believe Mickey Mantle did hit a homerun off Koufax for whatever it was worth.
October 26, 2009 7:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Damn, I was going to say Al Downing, but I didn't think he was in the rotation until '64. Now that I think about it, it was Stottlemeyer who entered the starting rotation in '64. Good question and I'm pissed I didn't know the answer. Now back to the trenches.
October 26, 2009 8:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
From the earliest massacres in Palestinian villages in 1947 by the LEHI and Irgun gangs, the Zionist dream of Herzl was stillborn.
And the Arab massacres of Israeli Jews throughout the '20s and '30s? Or the Farhud in Iraq in 1941? They don't count? People like you have been masquerading as "Progressives" for far too long. You're just bigoted, anti-semitic fools without any real knowledge of history.
By 1923, in "Wall of Iron", Jabotinsky had understood what it would take to create a Jewish state. It took the Labor Zionists a while longer to realize that their dreams were foolish. People like Joanne Mort will never get it.
October 26, 2009 6:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry but you really can't have a Democratic nation based on either ethnic or religious homogeneity.
Say that the issue of Palestinians and whatnot didn't exist and that Israel existed peacefully as democracy run by people who identified themselves culturally and religiously as Jewish. Then say those people, just in Israel, had a wild secular humanist epiphany. "This whole race and religion thing is crazy," they say, "we're all just humans." Then they voted that way and turned Israel into a secular humanist state. Would you be okay with that?
Okay, it ain't going to happen but a real democracy can't even be hypothetically constrained by adherence to race or religion. A real democracy has to be able to reject such premises.
October 26, 2009 8:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm addressing this to you, destor, but it is a response to many others.
In a fully integrated world, a Jewish Israel would be an aberration. But the real world is very far from that.
Israel was established by Jews born after the American Civil war but before WWI. They lived at a time when pogroms in Europe and the Middle East were frequent and violent. Subsequent events richly validated their fears and foresight.
Over the last 50 years integration has proceeded rapidly in many parts of the world - but not among Arabs (or, to a lesser extent, Muslims). Until it does the lot of you can go fuck yourselves.
October 26, 2009 1:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm really enjoying watching the air quickly leak out of your balloon.
BTW, you are quite the potty-mouth.
October 26, 2009 4:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Destor, I think you have confused democracy (as in "majority rule") with individual religious freedom (as in including the freedom to have no religion at all). If Israel DID vote to become secular humanist state, what could stop it? If it later voted to constrain itself to a being a Jewish state again, even a more constrained state in which only practicing Jews could live, that would be democratic too. Full separation of church and state, as we almost have in America today, is actually rather rare across the world and historically, since the nation-state system developed. Even the circumstances of Israel's founding are not a complete aberration. America has had a number of smaller-scale analogues. Think of New Caanan CT, Providence RI, or all of Utah.
The whole Israel must/must not be a Jewish state hubbub amounts to a giant distraction. The core problem with Israel today, the one that needs "midcentury correction," is not its form of government. That form of government or its immediate predecessor was ready to partition Palestine in 1948, that form of government was ready and DID sign peace treaties with Egpyt and Jordan and even a deal with the PLO. Israel's problem is with its politics, which overweights the lunatic fringe, and with the BEHAVIOR of its government, having for nearly a decade been all-too often engaged in cowardly and reckless violence and oppression serving no real purpose. America cannot restructure Israel's domestic political arrangements, nor can dictate Israeli policy in the occupied territories but it absolutely can and ought to assert its right to a foreign policy free from disruption and influence by organizations whose main defacto role is to assist that foreign lunatic fringe.
October 26, 2009 7:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
What a load of B.S.
Whose Israel is it? It's ISRAEL'S Israel as it should be.
If Joanne Mort is so god dammned concerned about her safe haven - the "democratic" home for Jews, she should go there to live, vote, pay taxes, shoulder an M-16, do reserve duty, and do her own slaughtering of palestinians and ghetto-izing of occupied territories. Be a board member of Peace Now in ISRAEL where maybe it will matter.
No one is stopping Mort any of the OTHER Jews around the world from claiming their place in their little homeland. There are no British boats barring the way as in the romantic fantasy "Exodus" or any other barriers to fulfilling your "dreams." There is no Diaspora, just Jews who stay away BY CHOICE.
Quit whining that you and the members of Peace Now, or J-Street or AIPAC or any of the other Jews around the world somehow aren't "safe." Go live in the freakin' militarized fascist state you created with the blessing and tax dollars from the rest of us.
And take all the rest of the apologist Zionists- in-name-only that post here with you.
and let the rest of us move on to something else more constructive.
October 26, 2009 9:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Nobody's stopping whining Jews from moving to Israel...or whining goys from doing something constructive.
October 26, 2009 2:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks. Diluting the toxity your river of nonsense really is a very worthwhile execise.
It takes one man to save the world entire.
Hug?
October 26, 2009 4:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do not subscribe to the Israel was Evil from Day One school of historical simplification and mythology. It has become a very different place over the past decade and a half since Rabin's murder than it was in its early decades -more arrogant, more hypocritical, more cowardly, more dependent on corrupting America's politics- and IS very much in need of a "course correction."
But this approach of Ms Mort: Peace Now embracing America and Israel and Jewishness altogether in a warm fuzzy ball, will fail as utterly as Peace Now has in Israel unless it undertakes some very fundamental corrections to itself. For two reasons:
1. Israelis, especially the hardliners that have had defacto control of the place for the past decades, will say, not with some justification, that is not for Americans to tell Israelis what to do.
2. Peace, pluralism, diversity, etc. are warm hopeful ideals, that vanish from Israel like sunbeams on a cloudy day, whenever some mad Arab blows himself up in a Tel Aviv cafe.
American Jews can be pro-Israel and pro-America both, but not equally so. That is a recipe for endless handwringing and J Street becoming the kind of meaninglessly trivial minor tut tutting critquer of AIPAC that some fellow posters here already think it is. On the other hand if J Street does its REAL job (which is not soothing consciences but affecting substantial change) then it will say to AIPAC: You do NOT represent us American Jews, we demand a US Mideast policy that is consistent first and foremost with AMERICA's interests. Those in turn are consonant with the interests of Israel public most of the time, but very much NOT consonant with the barbaric Israeli governments of the last decade.
October 26, 2009 9:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
2. Peace, pluralism, diversity, etc. are warm hopeful ideals, that vanish from US like sunbeams on a cloudy day, whenever some mad Arab blows himself up in a New York cafe.
October 26, 2009 10:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Speaking of vanish, why don't you go back wherever you were yesterday? Us Utopians cannot make the world a better place, but we can make TPM less spoiled by juvenile delinquency. You part is simply to depart. After your therapy and once you've learned how to express an original thought or two, maybe you can return here to the adults.
October 26, 2009 11:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
The Liberal pluralism in reality..
October 26, 2009 12:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not WITHOUT some justification (for Israelis to say to Americans mind your own business) I meant to say in my longish original post above (before the children poured in).
October 26, 2009 1:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
If America is serious about FORCING a peace settlement in the Middle East they'll have to do what they did in Korea and West Germany; station 40,000 troops along the border.
Neither the Koreans nor the Germans were into firing rockets at each other once a truce was established. That will NOT be the case here. A very large percentage of Palestinians and a lesser, but still very significant, percentage of neighboring Arabs view Israel as illegitimate.
Let the Rosenbergs of America volunteer for service in that force. Then we'll know whether they really are for peace...or whether the fear of Arab violence in this country has caused them to shit their pants at an embarrassing and ever increasing rate.
October 26, 2009 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your "history" here is a bit full of pitiful nonsense.
America BLEW GERMANY TO PIECES before it left SOME of its troops behind after '45 to keep the Russians behind the line in their slice of the pie. Is that what you want to volunteer other people to do to Israel today?
America sent troops to Korea because North Korea INVADED South Korea AND CAPTURED ALMOST ALL OF IT.
When has that EVER happened to Israel? NEVER of course.
Teddy Roosevelt got the Nobel Peace Prize for negotiating an end to the Russia-Japan war of 1904-05. No American solider was within 5 thousand miles of either country for many years before and after that war.
There are many ways to make war and peace. Not just those pre-approved for AIPAC propaganda-regurgitating dupes.
October 26, 2009 6:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Are you asking when Canadian Government declared
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Canadians fight the Americans (killing the Americans ), when the American will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Canadians , O Abdulla, there is an American behind me, come and kill him."
October 26, 2009 7:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was not claiming an exact historical analogy. I was being realistic. At present Israel has no real borders. It has armistice lines. It will NEVER agree to borders without great power guarantees. Real guarantees, not token UN forces. In practice that means US troops...and I see you "progressives" are already weaseling out of any suggestions that that might include you. Quelle surpise!
October 26, 2009 8:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
By the way, Teddy Roosevelt threatened Japan with war if they didn't agree to terms he desired, terms which protected American interests by leaving a strong Russia in the Far East.
October 26, 2009 8:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, those are wonderful aspirations, although a lethal hazard of today's world is that there's far too much armed particularism. I don't think you can have it both ways; I think one of the most difficult conclusions to accept, now, far past mid-century, is the anachronistic nature of "safe havens" - and the contradictory militancy that must underwrite them - make such political inventions unsustainable.
October 26, 2009 9:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
i just don't get this emotional attachment, as exemplified by Mort, to israel by american jews. i see this type of attachment, and longing for, the "old country" by first generation immigrants in the USA. but most of the american jews have been in the USA for multiple generations. what happens in your "youth movements, of Taglit/Birthright Israel or of ..synagogues" that makes you this way? luckily, the newer generation of american jews are dropping the tribal identity and are becoming more universal.
October 26, 2009 11:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
luckily, the newer generation of american jews are dropping the tribal identity and are becoming more universal ... for the last 2000 years.
October 26, 2009 11:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
What Jews under 35 feel towards Israel goes beyond apathy to outright resentment
October 26, 2009 11:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Breaking news: Some Jews feel hate towards Israel.
Another Breaking news: Some Americans feel hate towards US.
October 26, 2009 12:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
i was referring to young american jews who, according to the poll quoted in the article, have the following opinion: "More than half of Jews under 35 said that they would not view the destruction of Israel as a personal tragedy." that's a tough one to swallow, isn't it, AnnaA?
you will not find a similar poll that says that more than half americans under 35, whether living here or abroad, "would not view the destruction of america as a personal tragedy".
October 26, 2009 1:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Particularly since only 10% of Americans have passports.
October 26, 2009 1:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
What % of Americans under 35 who have close friends or relatives in US would view the destruction of America as a personal tragedy?
What % of Jews under 35 who have close friends or relatives in Israel would would view the destruction of Israel as a personal tragedy?
October 26, 2009 1:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Have you ever made a positive contribution to any conversation? Just wondering....
BTW, why is your goldfish texting me and requesting rescue?
October 26, 2009 1:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
spider: There are more Jews in England, France, the former Soviet Union, Canada, Brazil, and Argentina then I thought
your wrong observation about how many jews there are in the worldconfirms one of my observations, and that is, jews have a deep seated and unconscious fear of disappearing. this explains the inter-marriage phobia, the obsessive tribal behavior, and the hyper militarism of israel. the fear of disappearing might have been warranted in the past but not now. time to update your unconscious.
October 26, 2009 3:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
The problem with an end-justifies-the-means mindset, taking the form of 'any lie just so we get what we want,' is that eventually some participants therein start to believe their own lies or to forget what is true and what not.
Not sure about the unconscious (subconscious?) aspect, though. Probably true in some cases. In others it seems to be the opposite: a hyper-conscious mode. MJ discussed this some weeks ago: The mentality that is extremely conscious of the year 1942 in Warsaw. So conscious that everything in world of 2009 still looks like some shade or variant of Warsaw, 1942.
October 26, 2009 6:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
You should sue your shrink. He's seriously guilty of malpractice.
October 26, 2009 3:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Are you asking when Canadian Government declared
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Canadians fight the Americans (killing the Americans ), when the American will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Canadians , O Abdulla, there is an American behind me, come and kill him."
October 26, 2009 7:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting that the same people who likely favor the preservation of unique, ancient nations like the Inuit, the Catalan and the peoples of the Brazilian rainforest, who favor autonomy for the Inuit and the protection of the rain forest peoples from Brazilian cultural imperialism -- don't get why Jews want to preserve the Jewish nation, and see it fully flower in its own state in its historical land.
I'm making a supposition about BluePearl in particular. But it's a common dissonance in the minds of many people.
The Jewish nation is probably the oldest extant. Older than the Japanese by quite a lot; distinctly older than the Chinese and the Indians. Of course, it's hard to say the Jewish nation is more successful than these others: There are about ten times more Japanese in the world than Jews. Depends how you define succcessful. On the other hand, the Jewish nation seems to be doing better presently than the Inuit, and certainly than the Carthaginians or the Anasazi.
I'd attribute this mental contradiction -- it's kind of skitzy -- to the legacy of Freud. Lots of his odd ideas have trickled down into modern therapy, even while many are rejected. He remains the orthodoxy for the psychiatrists. And although much of what he wrote and said had nothing to do with science, actually true of most of therapy, true believers accept every idea of this famous cocaine addict as a kind of revealed truth.
Freud was dealing with the famous "Jewish Question" of Europe. We know others dealt with it. Freud's solution was universalism. He maintained that all Europeans, all people, should be encouraged to give up their religions and become one humanity. John Lennon's "Imagine," propounded with Teutonic earnestness.
And thus everyone today who's encountered a therapist--could be the majority in the US--has had universalism peddled to them as scientific and medical truth.
One problem with universalism is it's in fact an old idea. Alexander the Great wanted the world to speak Greek. For the sake of ultimate peace and harmony. Roman emperors had the same idea, except it should be Latin. Quite seriously, Mongols today insist that Genghis Khan was a man of peace.
Beethoven decided he didn't want to name his third symphony after Napoleon after all. Partly perhaps because Beethoven didn't want to have to learn French.
In concept, universalism has fundamental flaws. Most progressive people decry the notion of absolutes, even of objective truth, in societal matters.
So how do we decide which culture should be the universal one?
Should we agree that forcing Native Americans, or Aborigines, or Indigenous People to learn English and accept Western culture is wrong?
Let a thousand flowers bloom. Celebrate diversity.
Does every nation deserve its own state?
Who gets to say?
Ukrainians presently believe they are neither Polish nor Russian. Personally I'm fine with Ukraine as an independent state. Have to ask about the Ruthenians. The Polish fight for independence is celebrated in song and story. Norway was part of Denmark for about six centuries, and then became part of Sweden. It's been independent for about a century. Meanwhile Belgium seems to be unravelling, as Flamands and Walloons grow increasingly alienated from each other.
So what is it makes Israel exceptional? In fact, Israel's revival as an independent state isn't all that exceptional. Many have tried, some have succeeded, many have failed. What's exceptional is people like BluePearl thinking it's exceptional. And that's a conceptual dissonance I attribute to Freud.
Jewish-American attachment to Israel? Not very different from Italian-American attachment to Italy, Irish-American attachment to Ireland, etc.
Since there really is no way to know which societal and cultural example is best for all of humanity, or if there is one size that fits all, it in fact is the most universal thing to maintain a thousand separate laboratory experiments.
Of the many qualities that make the experiment called the Jewish state worthwhile is that it is the expression of a nation of great antiquity, that has succeeded certainly to the extent that it has survived for three millennia. Something that provoked Toynbee's hatred, and excited Mark Twain's admiration.
October 27, 2009 12:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
One problem with universalism is it's in fact an old idea.
Nothing is permanent in this world. Universalism always fails. But so does nationalism.
The Ottoman empire was diverse and multicultural, and it lasted for many hundreds of years. Rome was the same. They were tremendous success stories. And the vast majority of the nations and tribes that have inhabited this earth have disappeared, like every other mortal thing, having bequeathed to the world a few cultural influences and, in some cases, the memories of their names.
In fact, almost all of the "nations" that currently exist are the historical products of the efforts of vanished rulers and ancestors who were fired by universalistic aspirations, and who united what were once separate tribes into one political community. The descendants of what were once understood to be diverse and multinational "empires", even if geographically limited ones, are now romantically regarded as forming ethnically homogeneous "peoples". Weren't even the Jews originally composed of twelve tribes? But just like every other nation that lives and dies on this earth, some day the Jewish nation will no longer exist, having undergone natural processes of dissolution and absorption, just like everyone else.
The contemporary world, by virtue of the rapid and stunning breakdown of barriers of communication and distance, is seeing the formation of broad, more universal cultures more comprehensive than any we have seen so far. Will such cultures last forever? Of course not. Nothing does. But they will be glorious for a time. Individual Jews can decide whether they want to embrace these broader cultures, or fasten themselves rigidly to the ancient clan.
October 27, 2009 7:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
" Individual Jews can decide whether they want to embrace these broader cultures, or fasten themselves rigidly to the ancient clan."
Horse-hockey. I admire you so Dan, but I submit that my children and I and just about every individual Jew I know has embraced this broad culture as much as anyone else, and yet most of us us have fastened ourselves (some rigidly so) to our ancient people (the clan) as you say. Oh were life so linear. You are a wise man but you you have it wrong. Perhaps you need to hear from some more Jews. :)
October 27, 2009 9:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
And, if I may Dan, and please I try not to offend you, but I see as much rigidity in your vision of things as I see in many of us. I see your vision of how things would be if only somebody would kick Israel in the butt, push it back in toto behind the Green Line, throw all the hardline settlers in the brig, then everything would be great, and the Shia and Sunni worlds, and all of their internal divisions would embrace the United States, and you and your family would have nothing to fear. And, to me, as I have read you, that my friend, is your religion. Your religion, as expressed so vividly, is that Israel and its Jewish supporters are the cause of much of what threatens your family. I understand and disagree, but I don't question whether you have embraced our culture and those cultures more universal.
October 27, 2009 9:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting that the same people who likely favor the preservation of unique, ancient nations....don't get why Jews want to preserve the Jewish nation, and see it fully flower in its own state in its historical land.
what do you mean by 'historical land'? do you mean god as the real estate agent? if so, i object to israel stealing land in the 21st century based on an ancient book written centuries ago by people who heard voices in their head.
dogs use urine to mark territory. human beings are more "sophisticated" like the israeli settlers who use the bible to mark "this is mine".
israel should flourish within its own borders.
October 28, 2009 4:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Ottoman empire lasted about four centuries. The Roman empire, from Julius Caesar to the sack of Rome, about the same.
"In fact, almost all of the 'nations' that currently exist are the historical products of the efforts of vanished rulers and ancestors who were fired by universalistic aspirations, and who united what were once separate tribes into one political community."
Well, no. Lots of nations haven't had universalistic aspirations, in the temporal sense. The Navaho, the Scots, the Lydians, et al. Israel's "empire" at its greatest extent reached from a garrisoned Damascus to Wadi el-Arish. For even the most fervent, the Biblical prescription limits it. Gibbon wrote that the Jewish religion is admirably suited to defense, not so much to expansion.
The idea of the Jewish nation, to the extent that it is universalistic, is to set the example of an ideal society, that others would wish to emulate. Okay, so it isn't ideal at present. But it's a real-world effort, not a thought experiment.
Plenty of others in later eras have had a similar idea, from New Harmony to Deseret. It's certainly less intrusive and less violent than the usual sort of universalism, whether founded in Marx, Freud, Hellenism or Islam.
"...fasten rigidly to the ancient clan..."? Seems much bigger, more intricate, and more interesting than that. That description seems sort of disparaging.
Would you similarly disparage the Catalan for maintaining their unique language and culture? And those among them who favor independence?
The Jewish nation has its unique language -- more than one, in fact -- and every language has its own unique perspective. The word "lechem" for example in Hebrew means "bread"; its cognate in Arabic means "meat."
Maintaining and exploring and vitalizing this culture seems a worthwhile project to many.
"...just like every other nation that lives and dies on this earth, some day the Jewish nation will no longer exist, having undergone natural processes of dissolution and absorption, just like everyone else."
That's precisely what bothered Toynbee about the Jewish nation. It didn't follow that pattern. And part of what excited Twain's admiration. But whether any nation continues to survive isn't the point.
Like the Chinese and the Indians, nearly as old, the Jewish nation still thrives. The Jewish nation's survival to the present is a mark in its favor. Something also that reflects well on the Chinese and the Indians.
New and untested social forms are interesting, to be sure. But their "beta-testing" is barely started. Is something new always that much better? It may often merely be reinventing the wheel. "There is nothing new under the sun."
October 28, 2009 12:12 AM | Reply | Permalink