J Streets Wins 29-29 (++MJR In Today's Politico)
There was a famous Harvard-Yale football game back in 1968. And it's results produced an even more famous headline on page one of the Harvard Crimson. "Harvard Beats Yale: 29-29."
The reason for the headline: Yale had a perfect season and had at least two major stars (Brian Dowling and Calvin Hill) who would go on to the NFL. The Harvard team was a bunch of scruffy (for Harvard, anyway) upstarts like Tommy Lee Jones. So when, in the last seconds of the game, Harvard tied the score, every student at both schools understood that the underdog, Harvard, had won.
That game is considered the best game in the hundred plus years of Harvard-Yale football rivalry and is known simply as "The Game."
Well, in much the same way, J Street has already won won the battle with the status quo lobby. For the underdog, tying is winning.
Like Harvard in 1968, J Street has already won.
It has won because the forces of the status quo are fighting back, flailing on a dozen fronts simultaneously, which is something they never had to do before. They are sweating and scared and it shows. (Google J Street and see how many attacks have been launched on it by the neocon right). Even Israel's ambassador was recruited to get off his perch and diss J Street. But then Shimon Peres, Israel's President, dissed him and praised J Street.
For me, it is amazing to contemplate AIPAC and the neocons ever having to get into hand-to-hand combat with the peace forces over Middle East policy.
I mean that I've been involved with this for decades and the status quo lobby always sits back and smiles at the pathetic people on the other side. And, like Steve Rosen, they brag that if AIPAC wanted to, it could get Congress to pass a soiled napkin.
No more. The liberal Jews are on the attack, the blogosphere (led by Media Matters Action Network, my employer) is on the attack. The Christians and Muslim peace activists are on the attack. The rabbis are on the attack. But the highly paid lobbyists and the constituency they terrify with visions of pogroms are playing a ragged defense and asking each other, "how did this happen."
The right does have the Likud Prime Minister of Israel. But we have the President of the United States.
It's a beautiful thing. Larry Derfner, the brilliant Jerusalem Post reporter, sums it up.
The lobby is reeling. Kind of like the last days of a once-great prize fighter, swinging wildly, dizzy, but going down. Sad. No, actually it's wonderful.
Me in today's POLITICO.




















How sad, but MJ is correct.
Hezbollah won in 2006, Hamas won in 2009, and now J Street has won.
Congratulations, MJ, your side is winning.
October 21, 2009 10:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Isn't it lovely how AnnaA conflates Hamas with J Street. Just lovely.
October 21, 2009 11:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
They use the same talking points to "criticize" Israel.
October 21, 2009 11:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, they don't. Rather, Israel's current government and Hamas are now co-dependent. They each want to see all of Israel, the West bank and Gaza as theirs and theirs alone.
October 22, 2009 12:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Really,
even J street had to acknowledge:
October 22, 2009 12:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
So true. Peace with Israel means the end to an Islamic Palestine. That is Hamas's dream. Peace with Palestine means an end to Eretz Israel and maybe the beginning of B.A.'s "Hebrew Republic." So its the end of Gun Zionism's dream.
Now wonder AmmaA and all the other Zealots are frightened. Peace means more Israeli Jewish women dating Arabs. The horror!
October 22, 2009 9:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Peace means more Canadian or British Muslim women dating non Muslims and not being stoned to death, and more Muslims convert out of Islam and not face the death penalty.
October 22, 2009 1:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Attack for peace.
This guy is really something. Almost makes me want to see "peace" lose.
October 22, 2009 12:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
I thought you promised to go away?
No matter. "Attack" doesn't mean anti-peace. You can attack poverty. You can attack injustice. You can attack an opponent's queen in chess.
I think we all know that is different from military violence.
Metaphors aren't supposed to be taken literally.
October 22, 2009 8:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, MJ. You are ahead of yourself here. Way ahead, actually.
The teams are still on the practice fields. The fans are only just starting to move from their tailgaters into the stadium. Derfner is simply pointing out how ugly the rival team's cheerleaders are.
When America's UN ambassador stops vetoing almost every single resolution concerning Israel
When the US Congress is able to say that slaughtering babies is slaughtering babies and we disapprove
When the terrorist fringe of Israelis (aka "settlers") start moving off the land they stole, and go back to Israel where they belong
THEN you can uncork the champagne.
Until then you are still the underdogs. And there will be plenty of interceptions, fumbles, penalty flags, and timeouts once the game starts.
And this game is not even the Big Game (a real deal with the Palestinians).
October 22, 2009 3:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
KM, Tzipi Livni, Jerusalem -- Wednesday, October 21, 2009
To Mr. Jeremy Ben-Ami, Executive Director, J Street
'I would like to congratulate you on your inaugural national conference. I believe most American Jews support Israel and want to see it thrive as a Jewish and democratic state.'
However, in the eyes of many, the reality is that Israel is arguably neither Jewish nor democratic.
The state of Israel was established in 1948 by the UN as a Jewish homeland, in the aftermath of the Holocaust in which the majority of European Jews were liquidated by the Nazis in industrial style murder factories.
In the beginning, it served its true purpose and welcomed all those who had suffered from persecution around the world and who were born of a Jewish mother. But in the years that followed, the vision blurred and Herzl's dream of a Jewish agrarian co-operative, set within a Muslim Middle East and living in harmony with its indigenous neighbours, soon turned into a nightmare.
The indigenous Arabs voted, en bloc, against the UN resolution of 1947 that proposed to divide their land to accommodate a Jewish state in Palestine, and when their voices were ignored they attacked the fledgling state immediately upon its birth, which they saw as illegitimate. But the Arab armies, lost, and with that loss the new Israeli state gained an arrogant maturity. If a small Jewish army could defeat the combined armies of the Arabs, then surely God was with them and they could impose their rule at will.
In fact, they succeeded in imposing their will only with the covert, but subsequent overt, help of the United States - or rather, the American Zionist lobby, later to adopt the more benign name of AIPAC, the American Israel Jewish Affairs Committee, that now exerts such a powerful influence on US foreign policy through its control on the voting behaviour of both the House of Representatives and the Senate.
Throughout the post-war years, as America's power increased worldwide, the tiny Israeli state hung onto its coat-tails, fed and sustained with billions of tax dollars from unknowing Americans. And so, the state of Israel grew exceedingly arrogant and with that arrogance, came brutality. For the grandchildren of the survivors of the Holocaust grew to forget the horrors of war-time Europe that had so decimated their grandparents in Germany, Austria, Poland, France, Holland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary.
Like an abused child, who in turn abuses his or her own children - Israelis began to oppress and humiliate their neighbours. Then came the killings, which, it was claimed, were in self-defense. But too often it was women and children who died at the hands of the Israeli army. Too often, unarmed civilians.
But the IDF was increasingly composed of young soldiers of Russian or Ethiopian origin, whose parents may, or may not, have been born Jewish.
Israel consistently claims to be the only democracy in the Middle East, but her actions are anything but democratic. She kills, imprisons and tortures many thousands - even up to today. Without trial and without any semblance of justice but with every semblance of inequality.
That the state of Israel is carried on the back of the American tax-payer is common knowledge but it is open to debate whether that small country is entirely Jewish or democratic. Certainly, as a Jewish Democrat, originally from a very old, east European Jewish family, I am exceedingly doubtful.
October 22, 2009 4:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
good post!
AIPAC, the American Israel Jewish Affairs Committee, that now exerts such a powerful influence on US foreign policy through its control on the voting behaviour of both the House of Representatives and the Senate.
don't forget to include the president here also. the last president to seriously take on the lobby was JFK who rightly instructed RFK to have the lobby register as an agent of a foreign power. when LBJ became president this effort was dropped. since then presidents and congress have been pretty much "yes men" to the israeli-first lobby.
October 22, 2009 8:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Nice post, but you've internalized a ounterfactual.
You say: 'If a small Jewish army could defeat the combined armies of the Arabs, then surely God was with them and they could impose their rule at will."
This is false. See http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/War_of_Independence.htm
October 22, 2009 12:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
What a discussion - love it.
October 22, 2009 8:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
The degree and extent to which MJ has become divorced from reality is truly frightening. The reality is that the world is increasingly becoming frightened and up in arms at the growing anti-semitism, and is responding to it. The anti-semites are at most 1% of the population, and generally regarded as a lunatic fringe of disturbed right-wing bigots. Maybe in their own minds they think people take them seriously, but no one in the real world does. I can't believe that Marshall is allowing this gibberish to be published. It totally destroys the credibility of the site.
October 22, 2009 1:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
"I can't believe that Marshall is allowing this gibberish to be published. It totally destroys the credibility of the site."
Fewer Mikep posts, less gibberish.
October 22, 2009 1:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Peace means more Canadian or British Muslim women dating non Muslims and not being stoned to death, and more Muslims convert out of Islam and not face the death penalty
October 22, 2009 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Boris: Reposting your last inane comment doesn't make it any less inane. Unlike most pollutants, your inane comments aren't diluted with increasing volume because the relative mass of your inanity is a constant.
October 22, 2009 3:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Peace means more Canadian or British Muslim women dating non Muslims and not being stoned to death, and more Muslims convert out of Islam and not face the death penalty
October 22, 2009 3:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guess being sane in tpmcafe, means don't mind British Muslim women dating non Muslims being stoned to death, and Muslims convert out of Islam facing the death penalty.
October 22, 2009 3:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are now responding to yourself.
Have you considered being evaluated for schizophrenia?
October 22, 2009 4:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guess being sane in tpmcafe, means don't mind British Muslim women dating non Muslims being stoned to death, and Muslims convert out of Islam facing the death penalty
October 22, 2009 4:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, but it does mean that we use sentences that contain sequiturs, not babbling incoherence.
You really were poorly served by Soviet School.
October 23, 2009 12:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do you agree that peace means more Canadian or British Muslim women dating non Muslims and not being stoned to death, and more Muslims convert out of Islam and not face the death penalty.
October 23, 2009 1:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do you need a time out?
October 23, 2009 2:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guess you don't like Muslim women dating non Muslims.
October 23, 2009 2:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have no opinion on that Boris. Apparently, the sexual lives of Muslims is a big deal to you. Is this unhealthy fixation a result of those cold Russian winters?
October 23, 2009 3:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting, Why do you have an opinion about Israeli Jewish women dating Arabs, but not Arab women dating Jews and Christians?
October 23, 2009 4:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't care either way. But apparently you do because you keep talking about it.
October 23, 2009 5:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are not being honest. You do. Here is what you wrote
"Peace means more Israeli Jewish women dating Arabs. "
October 23, 2009 8:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Being Controversial vs. Being Influential
Noah Pollak - 10.22.2009 - 4:51 PM
The past week for J Street has been an example of what happens to a political group unable to maintain some semblance of ideological discipline. The group’s pre-conference problems all derive from the exposure of the radicals in its midst: the crackpots who compare Gaza to Auschwitz; the anti-Zionists like Avram Burg and Bernard Avishai; the blogger panel composed of shrill fanatics and slanderers of the Jewish State. Instead of cultivating an image of seriousness and maturity, the conference has sharpened the public’s perception of a group dedicated to apologizing for and attempting to sanitize people who have made careers out of antagonizing Israel.
Meanwhile, the group reserves its real indignation for people like Sen. Joe Lieberman and Michael Goldfarb. All this does is create fodder for the charge that it’s a Trojan Horse for anti-Zionism. Given its record, I can’t really disagree that this is its purpose. Jeremy Ben-Ami told Politico that “we are at the center of debate and controversy after only 18 months, and this is a real impact and a success.” He doesn’t seem to understand the difference between being controversial and being influential, or the way the former characteristic can undermine the latter. The burden has shifted very publicly onto J Street to prove its detractors wrong, and that’s a bad position to be in.
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/category/contentions
October 22, 2009 5:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
For all those who rushed to defend Israel after the Nozette arrest, I'll accept your apology starting now. See http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/israel-poses-profound-espionage-threat-to-u-s.html
October 23, 2009 9:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
I asked MJ if he could spell out the J-Street position on the "Two State Solution" but he was and apparently continues to be too busy getting wet with his cats...
So I followed a link someone posted to J-Street and I found a nicely worded piece of PR flakery that says we support peace based on the plans that some other people put forward, including Bill Clinton, yada, yada, yada...
Ok..."We" all want peace...
As I recall, Mr. Clinton was shocked to discover that the PLO had no idea or interest in things like, who was going to deliver the mail, collect taxes, and garbage, who was going to build the schools, hire the teachers, and keep religious fascists from shooting the teachers if they deviated from what the thugs said was possible...
Want me to end up like Rabin...said Arafat...
So, I'll ask again...
Let's take as a given that there is an "independent" "Palestinian" "state"...
Could MJ, or someone from J-Street, please explain how the "Palestinians" will, uniquely among the Arabs, create and maintain a viable democratic state with freedom of choice, of expression, a free press, an independent judiciary,a non-corrupt government, no torture, and a viable economy that does not live off of an institutionalised black market run by the "government"...
If they can not explain that then either they don't know, or worse, don't care because in truth, they don't care if the "Palestinians" suffer under Isralie rule, or their own...just so long as they shut up and go away...
Could MJ or someone from J-Street please explain why anyone should believe for one moment that America is going to support a one-off democratic Arab state that somehow will not stand out as an enormous anomolly among the corrupt dictatorships we support with our money and the lives of our own people?
Of course not...but hope srpings eternal, eh...
So it goes...
October 23, 2009 10:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hope does spring eternal.
Ever day I wake believing that a Zionist can overcome his inverterate racism. And every day I am disappointed.
But there is always tomorrow. One day, someone in Israel, a Zionist will finally decide he loves his children more than he covets Palestinian land.
October 23, 2009 11:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hope does spring eternal.
Ever day I wake believing that a Arabs can overcome his inverterate racism. And every day I am disappointed.
But there is always tomorrow. One day, someone an Arab will finally decide he loves his children more than he covets Israeli land.
October 23, 2009 1:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hello Mythbuster...
I used to live (albeit briefly) in Israel...I happen to look like an Arab (I routinely get asked if I'm Italian, Persian, Tunisian...)and had any number of encounters with Isralie bigots...I had a friend who lived in a very chi-chi area of Jerusalem full of Ashkenasi princes and their princesses...he was Ashkanasi...his family were Vienese Yekkes...his girlfriend was a Mizrahi goddess who turned heads and raised eyebrows everywhere she went...I used to get a kick out watching this "interacial" couple go to the local market...and make the uptight yekke bigots cringe...
Having established that I agree that Israel has a racist streak a mile wide and just as deep (or if you like I can tell you the story about how the Spheardi author I knew got subbed by Natan Zach...etc, etc, etc) perhaps someone could actually answer my question:
If the "Two State Solution" is to be viable does it not require at least a modicum of democratic stability in "Palestine" and if that is not part of the package could someone please explain how a non-democratic gangsterocracy will provide stability and security to anyone in the region?
Or, does the whole thing sound like a Becket play...where everyone just keeps waiting...
Cheers,
Marlow
October 23, 2009 3:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
ps
what Isralie bigotry has to do with my question baffles me...
Isralie bigots exist...bigots exist everywhere...the question is, what does a "Palestinian" "state" look like and how does it actually work...
Will it have:
Freedom of religion
Freedom of choice
A right to privacy in one's home
No government torture of its critics
A free press
An independent judiciary
etc, etc, etc
If not, why not and what does it mean?
Does J-Street not advocate a democratic and independent "Palestine"?
If not, why not?
Since the Euro-American Empire had demonstrated zero interest in stopping sclerotic sado-masochistic thugs in the rest of the Arab world and has instead pissed away trillions of dollars and thousands of lives defending such gangsters...I remain underwhelemed at the prospects of America doing what is necessary to establish a one-off democratic Arab state...
I'm waiting for and answer...
Cheers
Marlow
October 23, 2009 3:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think you can google Mr. Fayyad's recent pronouncements on the secular, democratic state he is trying to build. He's even offered to let the settlers stay if they become Palestinian citizens.
But routinely referring to Palestine as a "gangster" state is just plain stupid. You should know that Jeffrey Goldberg's friends in Fatah from Gaza--like George W. Bush's favorite Palestinian, Mr. Dahlan--were the real gangsters.
However, they don't run Palestine. Thank God.
Why don't you wait and see who is elected on January 24th. In a perfect world Mustafa Bhargouti will win. I will settle for a younger Fatah member so long as they aren't part of Abbas inner cirle.
If you actually deal with the Palestinians in good faith, i.e., stop settlement activity and economic blockages, you might be pleasantly surrpised with the outcome.
Israelis may be the only people on earth who think that if you kill a man's child, the man will thank you.
October 23, 2009 3:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
just for the record...I think Israel is a gangster state as well...the market in Jerusalem (not the one in the Old City) is a nest of mafioso...you can find the same level of utter corruption there as in the US...however, unlike in a lot of the rest of the world you can also find the same paradoxical conditions you find in America and Europe...semi-independent press, semi-independent judges, semi-independent lawyers, semi-independent writers, universities, high schools, unions, property rights, semi-free religious institutions...
And the same corruption you find in Chicago or Antiebe...
In the meantime...I wasn't asking about a "Palestinian" but about J-Street...
So I'll ask again:
What is J-Street's position on establishing a democratic state in "Palestine"?
How do they propose to do it?
Step one: Israel withdraws...
Step two?
And as to Mr. Fayed...that's fabulous...truly...what does he propose to do about the cozy relationship between the "Palestininian" mafia and the Israel mafia...the cars stolen in Tel Aviv end up being chopped up for parts in the West Bank...same with drugs...prostitutes...money...spare parts, etc...
Just like the pipelines that run acfross Europe and America...
William Burroughs gets busted in France for heroin dealing...part of a long range program by the French to "clean up" the Soud...
so heroin gets moved to Mexico...
So, could someone lease explain just how anyone (US, Israel, UN, EU, etc) are going change things in the Middle East?
And could someone explain J-Street's position on whether or not a democratic "Palestine" is viable and how it's going to be established and if not then, what the fuck are they talking about?
Cheers
Marlow
October 23, 2009 5:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
so Fayyed wants to build a state from the botttom up...secular, democratic, etc...
I think that's fantastic and he should be helped to achieve that goal...
Could someone please tell me J-Streets position on how those goals will be met!?!
Cheers,
Marlow
October 23, 2009 5:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Below (after my comment) is a comment from J-Street's director...
It is, frankly, total, unrealistic horseshit...or whistiling past the graveyard...what he's saying is that there is nothing in human beings (not, Arabs, just human beings) that was or is at work outside of the context of the post 1948 and post "Nakba" "reality, that would incline someone to be a suicide bomber...
As I have said repetedly, if someone would like to explain how, for one example, Yehuda Amichai's long historical vision, or Yaakov Shabtai's equally long historical vision, in which the Human Condition, is the fuse that sparks catastrophy and paradoxically sparks life, is wrong, I would love to hear it...
hell, we could even talk about an overly sentimental pot-boiler like A.B.Yeshoua's Mr.Mani...but no one will...literature tells us nothing about the world, right; just a bunch of hacks spewing occasionally pretty words...after all, want to understand the "Palestinians"...then you certainly shouldn't read Darwish (except where you can find a suitable quote where he blames Israel, then he's "important")
But they are,clearly, correct...there will never be peace in the Middle East because it is not any different than anywhere else and there is never peace anywhere...just a wait until the next war...
"...the past aint even hardly past"
--- William Faulkner (noted fraud and "literary" hack)
In other words, it's the "Occupation" stupid...because American banking policy and the price of oil, and the drug trade, and the weapons business, and unemployment across the globe, and the environment and overpopulation have nothing to do with some "Palestinian" kid trying to blow himself up...
And being a product of a culture that loathes women,and hates diversity would never produce extreme violence...after all, when Cromwell slaughtered the Irish, it was because of the occupation...when we bombed the Vietnamese back to the "stone age" it was because of the occupation...no, culture doesn't exist; it's a myth...a fable...
Now, if only everyone would just be reasonable...logical...and listen to the Menches of J-Street then...there will be peace...and all the people who are making billions from death will say - hey, peace is cool, let's do that...
"Well, let's really take a step back. Ehud Barak, in 1999, when he was running for prime minister, said "If I was a young kid growing up in the Palestinian territories, I'd probably be a terrorist, too." There is a sense of hopelessness, there's a sense of a lack of future in the Palestinian territories and particularly in Gaza. When an Israeli kid grows up, he wants to launch the next big start-up, they want to make a billion dollars by having an IPO out of their garage, by having the next great idea, right? In Gaza, the kids are growing up wanting to be the next great suicide bomber, and that's where martyrdom comes in, that's where fame comes, that's where family honor comes from, because there's no other path. So we have to recognize that this is a part of the climate in the Palestinian territories. This is not blaming Israel for terrorism."
October 24, 2009 11:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Q.E.D, J-Street, is Joke Street...below is a passage from a NYReview of Books article on Hamas, linked from TPM as the war within Hamas...
The passage below could have been taken from one of Graham Greene's travel notebooks...
Nothing changes, except the costumes...
Joke-Street can hold all the conferences it likes...there is never going to be peace in the Middle East any more than there will be peace anywhere else...
So it goes...
"Such changes in position are offensive to Hamas's hard-core followers. For what have they struggled, if not for establishing God's kingdom on earth? Rumors in Gaza reinforce the image of a leadership straying from the straight path. Businessmen working with Hamas are said to be investing tunnel profits in renovating plush hotels, prompting some to speak of an emerging Hamas oligarchy. A minister's son reportedly deals in drugs, and the son of a Qassam commander smokes water pipes. The security forces, too, seem to be following the pattern of the region's self-serving police states. Hamas used to threaten external foes and defend its own people, say Gaza's whisperers. Now it does just the reverse."
October 24, 2009 1:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
J Street's conference was to have featured a "poetry slam" and panel that was later cut from the program after this blog posted video of one of the speakers making statements that J Street director Jeremy Ben-Ami subsequently condemned as an "abuse of Holocaust imagery." Still speaking at the conference is Salam Al-Marayati, the executive director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council. In 1994 Al-Maryati wrote that "just as Hitler forged a conflict between Judaism and Christianity, apologists for Israel crave for Islam to be at odds with both Judaism and Christianity." On September 11, 2001, just hours after the World Trade Center fell, Al-Maryati pointed the finger at Israel in a radio interview. "If we're going to look at suspects, we should look to the groups that benefit the most from these kinds of incidents, and I think we should put the state of Israel on the suspect list," Al-Maryati said. A year later at the campus of California State University-Northridge, Al-Maryati's Muslim Public Affairs Council put on an exhibit that contained a photograph carrying the slogan "Zionism is Nazism."
On the one hand we have a Holocaust survivor and rightful Nobel Peace Prize winner addressing an organization whose pro-Israel credentials J Street has repeatedly attacked. And on the other we have a paranoid, anti-Semitic, anti-Zionist addressing an organization that the Israeli ambassador refuses to engage on the grounds that the policies it supports could "impair Israel's interests."
Ben-Ami said of Hagee's remarks last spring that they were "offensive not just to Jewish people who suffered at the hands of Adolf Hitler but to all Americans, their parents and grandparents who fought and sacrificed to defeat Nazi Germany." So then why is Elie Wiesel speaking at Hagee's conference and Salam Al-Maryati speaking at Ben-Ami's?
Posted by Michael Goldfarb at 09:03 AM
http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/10/elie_wiesel_to_keynote_cufi_co.asp
October 23, 2009 1:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
"So then why is Elie Wiesel speaking at Hagee's conference..."
Msaybe Wiesel needs the money since Madoff bankrupted him.
October 23, 2009 3:53 PM | Reply | Permalink