I long admired Jeffrey's writing but I don't get this. It's sad enough that Israel has become so polarized that even the idea of a two state solution seems illusory. It's sadder when this polarization has infected the American Jewish community.

AnnaA, I take your question seriously, though I am not sure it was meant this way. The US can give people in Ramallah a political horizon, a provisional border, and the promise to gradually get the IDF out of the way of their businesses. I lay the latter issues out in the October "Harper's," if you haven't seen this.

Complexity is for sissies.

One more thing. I don't care at all what the AIPAC crowd says about me (as long as it's negative).
There's a great new show on HBO Sunday night about this young Jewish kid who is pretending to be a detective.
There is a funny bit where he confronts a bunch of Israeli moving guys with a question about when did Jewish guys get to be muscle types.
One of the Israelis takes umbrage: "What are you? One of those self-hating New York Jews."
The kid thinks about it and responds, "yes."

In other words, there is nothing these people can say that stings. Being called a self-hater or anti-Israel by the lobby crowd is like having a Lubavitcher tell me that I am crazy!

No, you are not crazy, you are clown.

vicious shot from Jefferey Goldberg.

goldberg worked as a prison guard at one of israel’s largest prison-concentration camps, ketziot, during the first intifada. in his book he writes of the torture there:

24, 48, or even 72 hours in solitary confinement, zinzana, in Arabic. The zinzana was the size of a refrigerator box, into which three, four, five or six prisoners were shoveled. The prisoners were seated on a cold and hard plastic floor, limbs draped over limbs, and they shat in a bucket that was emptied once a day. After a few days in the box, prisoners could no longer stand unaided. [ [ link ]

having admitted to have personally sent prisoners to solitary confinement, zinzana, he is an accessory to torture. so goldberg should have no problems taking vicious shots.

Bernie,

A Hat Tip for your links.

Jaango

I've read the quote in question by Goldberg, and I'm trying to figure out why you're so exercised. He doesn't write that he won't go to the conference because of you but he does write that he disagrees with your views (perhaps simplistically. . .as if we never see that in the blogposts of some of your Israel-obsessed colleagues on this site) about the notion of a Jewish State. I read your book, the Hebrew Republic, in May. I found it compelling on many counts and I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to try and understand the landscape underlying the I-P conflit. It is particularly instructive about Israeli discrimination against its Palestinian citizens, as a matter of law and fact, in particular with respect to real property rights and the overall disparity in living standards between Jewish and Palestinian Israelis.

On the other hand, with respect to Goldberg, and perhaps I missed something, but isn't one of your central theses fairly described as opposition to the notion of a Jewish State. Don't you instead advocate for the establishment of a nation of Palestinians and Jews in a Hebrew nation? Isn't your vision illustrated so vividly, for example, in the meeting you write about with your Palestinian friend at the restaurant in the German colony? Most significantly, don't you express opposition to the right of Jewish return to the State of Israel? That's not a criticsm of your well-reasoned view, but isn't that your view and isn't that what Goldberg appears to be writing about?

Don't you instead advocate for the establishment of a nation of Palestinians and Jews in a Hebrew nation?

First, let me thank and express my appreciation to all and whom have posted to these various threads on the I/P conflict. For me, this has been a wonderful experience, as well as educational. So permit me to add my penchant for the next two or three cents.

Although I have not read Bernie’s book, I found his various posts engaging for me from the standpoint of ‘acquiring’ a further understanding of the various currents of politics and perspectives. Thus, “immigration” from the standpoint of both societies, I am slowly arriving or concluding that the Palestinians want to return, and the Israelis want to perpetuate this self-same “safe harbor” for themselves. And both views are understandable from my perspective as a Native American/Chicano. Thus, my history provides the analogy of what I think may eventually occur.

Back in the days when Cortez showed up in central Mexico, the Jesuits were what I would call the “follow-on” cabal and in which they proceeded to implement a new history by destroying the existing documents and the writing instruments, and with only a few remaining documents for public viewing and found in main library in Mexico City. Additionally, when the Jesuits realized that the Indios had encountered the Virgin de Guadalupe, they sought approval from Loyola, the founder of the Jesuits, and eventually converted the 9-day celebration of the Aztec Sun Deity, Huitzilopchtli, to La Posada. Thus, the La Posada is the travails of Mary, Joseph, and the birth of Jesus. Consequently, this was the “radical” change within an Indigenous Hemisphere that indicated 'progress'.

And yet, the largest Native American Society is the Yaqui, and which straddles the USA-Mexico border. To wit, and usually forgotten by the assorted and assembled historians, is that the Aztecs were a subset or a Clan of the Yaquis, and given their proclivity, these Aztecs were ostracized and encouraged to ‘migrate’ south due to their behavior for butchery, slavery, and rape. And today, these Aztecs are now re-migrating north and into the United States and into the arms of our Extended Family. And by my lights, these Aztecs are the Youngsters for a Cosmopolitanism that comes via Progress.

And as the Spanish-speaking community and our Leadership Cabal becomes engaged in the human dimension for the I/P conflict, my community is going to focus on the marriage between the Israelis and Palestinians within Israel. Given that here in the USA, the marriage between the Indigenous and the non-Indigenous populations, adds the ever-important flavor for a more ‘progressive’ perspective relative to the future. Of course, the mere mortal would suggest that the "sex is great!"

Consequently, I think that Bernie is “on to something” in his advocacy. I would suggest that he take it a step further, and check the behavior for marriage between the Israeli and the Palestinian, and he will find the ‘future’ located within this demographic cohort. Therefore, more political turbulence can be expected in the short and long terms.

In closing, I will expect the many to disagree with me in this instance, and yet, my history informs that the Spanish-speaking here the USA, will take a different tack when becoming engaged in our foreign policy and which will discombobulate the existing elite. And in this regard, I am reminded that the Jefe-Honcho at the IMF once said that the “elites negotiate with the elites” and that is NOT the Indigenous Way. As such, we own and use the “mops” on a daily basis.

Jaango

artappraiser,

Thanks for the advice.

However, I am a firm believer in "self-interest" and given brand of advocacy, the former Yugoslavs, activated their self-interest, and thusly, the current result. As to the moral judgment for "good" or "bad", I leave that to the next generation.

And when I look at the political shenanigans of Societies seeking Progress, I harken back to "leadership models" and have found most of them wanting. Here in the USA, Bush's Choice was for a third-rate model, and to date, Obama's is hovering between a second and first-rate model, given his presidential inheritance from the prior administration.

Now, with respect to Israel, I see this leadership model premised on a third-rate model. And from this, I see the Youngsters in the future becoming the driving force for Progress. And yes, I am a believer in the Art of Becoming! Consequently, I am one of the few Optimists found among the wealth of Pessimists.

Jaango

Jeffrey Goldberg has now directly responded to this blogpost. Among other things, Goldberg states that he never stated that he would not go to the conference because of the presence of Avishai or anyone else. He also writes that he is trying to change a reporting trip so that he can attend the conference and that, finally, consistent with a point that I had attempted to discuss with Avishai, Goldberg does explain why he has fundamental differences with Avishai on the right of Jews to settle in Israel. Avishai has never once responded to one of my posts; that, of course, is his choice. But the right of Jews to return is one of the central underpinnings of the State of Israel. J Street, I submit, would never waver in its support of the Law of Return. That is not to say that Avishai hasn't explained his position rather cogently and convincingly and I respect him for speaking out on the point. But the position he takes is outside of any definition of the organized Jewry mainstream, and perhaps Goldberg should have made that point more clearly. Read Goldberg's reply to Avishai; it is anything but disrespectful and exemplifies the kind of discourse that is sorely missing at this site on this issue.

http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/10/anti-zionists_and_the_j_street.php

As for Jews being able to "return" to Israel, what about "thousands" of non-Jews from Russia being slated to fight in the IDF? Natan Sharanksy is supposedly to be involved in the tricky problem of their "conversions":

Now, he has been elected Chair of the Jewish Agency for Israel, the largest beneficiary of UJA overseas' dollars. He is the perfect candidate for this position, as he is emblematic of the power of the Diaspora and Israel, working together on a common global issue – freeing Soviet Jews. But today, we are confronted by the relative lack of engagement of young people for Israel. Sharansky views Birthright Israel, a 10-day trip to Israel for college students, and MASA, a program geared for longer-term study and volunteerism in Israel, as the perfect platforms to help build stronger bridges between Israel and Diaspora youth. He can also play an instrumental role in helping resolve the conversion issue for the thousands of Russian young people who will be serving in the IDF and who are not Jewish.

http://www.ujcnj.org/blog_post.aspx?id=1278

Is this kosher?

As for those complaining about blog posts about the intercine fights over the directions of our ME foreign policies, too bad. Like it or not, the TPM blog daddy is a Zionist as are many of those "guests" commenting on this issue. The casual observer of ME affairs may find these discussions annoying, but the JStreet vs the established Zionist orgs and hardliners goes up to the levels of both the Israeli and American administrations and Congress.

If you don't like these discussions or the "tone" of them, go find some more genteel venues and good luck with that, BTW. I will offer the suggestion of "The Magnes Zionist" blog for those who are sincerely interested in the issues.

This is all a part of much bigger concerns that involve the declining loyalty to Israel among young American Jews, etc and the contentious "tone" here reflects much of what is in the ether in the media et al, both American and Israeli.

The overarching issue is ALL about the power struggle for influence and yes, Virginia, it's a huge damn deal.

No one is forcing anyone to read and participate in these threads.

Abercrombie and Fitch londonThis is all a part of much bigger concerns that involve the declining loyalty to Israel among young American Jews, etc and the contentious "tone" here reflects much of what is in the ether in the media et al, both American and Israeli.

Thank you, very informative article. Interesting to hear of current developments in such an fascinating place.

Thanks For this topic admin

indir

film izle

A very well documented article. I'm glad to read such articles about American life and what happens in the Middle East. There are many problems there but i belive that time will resolve them in favor of one or other. Thanks for the post ! anunturi gratuite

This article is very interesting. Thank you very much for sharing .
Best regards, Katya, CEO of facebook, openfiler iscsi slow