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Why Did We Pressure Palestinians To Deep Six Goldstone Report?

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Mahmoud Abbas clearly knows the truth of the adage "with friends like these, who needs enemies?" The friend in this case is the United States.

Last month a United Nations team headed by the distinguished South African jurist Richard Goldstone issued a report - based on months of interviews and on-the-ground investigations - concluding that Israel and Hamas both committed war crimes in Gaza. The report's primary focus was on Israel, largely because the number of Palestinians killed by the Israeli army was 1,387 (including 320 children) compared to nine Israeli soldiers who were killed by Hamas.

The Israeli government - and the lobby here - went into full "shoot the messenger" mode, attacking Goldstone rather than addressing the incidents described in his report.

Nonetheless, the next step was for the United Nations Humans Rights Council - which had commissioned the Goldstone report - to consider its findings and then refer it to the UN Security Council.

But that is not going to happen. According to media reports in Israel and here, Israel persuaded the United States to get the UNHRC to defer consideration of the report. But then came the crazy part: the United States pressured the Palestinian Authority to itself request deferral.

The Palestinians yielded to the pressure and, for now, the Goldstone report is deep sixed. After all, if the Palestinians don't want alleged war crimes against Palestinians to be investigated, why would anyone else?

Palestinians are outraged. How can a Palestinian authority ask that the UN not consider abuses committed against Palestinians? Even the Palestinian Authority's Prime Minister, Salam Fayyad, criticized his boss, President Mahmoud Abbas, saying that, "We must never give up on any opportunity to prosecute war criminals from the Israeli aggression toward Gaza."

In any case, the damage is done. Abbas now looks like an Israeli and American puppet and his effectiveness, such as it was, has taken what could be a mortal blow.

The United States and Israel (not to mention the Palestinians) will have to live with the consequences of this blunder - including adding mightily to the credibility of Hamas (which is attacking Abbas non-stop for selling out his people).

What were our policymakers thinking?

Cross Posted Media Matters Action Network


49 Comments

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So called Israeli war crimes in Gaza is just a lie, a pressure tactic used by its enemies to force Israel to agree to self-destruction.
This is the only issue: Palestinian right of 7 millions Arabs to "return" to Israel is non-negotiable. Palestinians demand that Israel agree to self-destruction, and they get mad that Israel refuses to oblige, and progressive Jews like MJ don't provide enough cover for Obama to help them with their goals.


It has been clear at all stages of the negotiations that this process aims to eliminate the core issue of the Arab/Palestinian struggle for freedom and justice: the Palestinian refugees and their rights of return and restitution. In fact, elimination of these central Palestinian/Arab demands form the center-piece of both Israeli and US policies. It is also no secret that during the so-called “Oslo Peace Process” these policies have employed insidious tactics in order to nullify these rights altogether. Such tactics include attempts to substitute the return and restitution of the refugees with monetary compensation; to reduce the number of those entitled to exercise these rights from over 7 million Palestinian refugees and internally displaced persons to a tiny minority, including so-called “hardship cases” that would be arbitrarily defined by Israel; to suggest that the refugees return to homes located in the areas administered by the Palestinian Authority; and other humiliating “trade offs” whereby Palestinians are expected to surrender the right of refugees to return to homes, lands and properties of origin in exchange for other rights and demands, such as self-determination, borders, the reclamation of Jerusalem and removal of the illegal settlement-colonies. The Palestinian leadership has rejected such degrading bargaining tactics in previous negotiations, notably those known as the second Camp David summit and the Clinton initiative. The late President Yasser Arafat rejected these tactics, and he was made to pay for that with his liberty and his life.

http://www.palestine-pmc.com/details.asp?cat=7&id=199

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'Anna' is just like a Holocaust Denier--a scumbag who hates humanity.

Medical staff and ambulance drivers who attempted to assist casualties of the Israeli invasion of Gaza have told the Guardian that they were attacked by Israeli forces while trying to carry out their job.

The offensive left 16 medics dead. Nearly all of them were killed by Israeli fire while trying to save lives, and many more were wounded. According to the World Health Organisation, more than half of Gaza's 27 hospitals were damaged by Israeli bombs. Two clinics were completely destroyed and 44 others received damage.

Dr Moawa Hassenein, the head of Gaza's Red Crescent ambulance teams, said it was the worst assault he had seen on ambulance workers: "I have never seen anything like what happened … Never in all my years have I seen this many health workers and facilities targeted in this way."

In a report released yesterday, Physicians for Human Rights Israel said there was "certainty" that Israel had violated international humanitarian law, with attacks on medics, damage to medical buildings, indiscriminate attacks on civilians and delays in medical treatment for the injured.

"We have noticed a stark decline in IDF [Israeli Defence Forces] morals concerning the Palestinian population of Gaza, which in reality amounts to a contempt for Palestinian lives," said Dani Filc, the chairman of the pressure group. On one day – 4 January – four medics were killed in two separate incidents.

Medics have also said their ambulances were used as human shields by the Israeli army. Ambulance driver Hassan Kalhout described one such ordeal: "They were firing mortars and phosphorus bombs at the houses. They placed our vehicles in front of them while they continued to fire. They made us stay in the ambulances and used us as cover as they fired on civilians."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/23/gaza-war-crimes-medics

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The point, the Hamas's goal is to kill every Jew in the world. You is just like a Holocaust Denier--a scumbag who hates humanity.

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AnnA, please don't get an avatar. I take occasional pleasure in not knowing whose comment I am reading but then seeing within a few sentences that it is a whacko whose name I can guess before it scrolls into view.

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here is another take written by a palestinian refugee journalist living in austria:

The sources stated that the Palestinian Authority initially objected and has steadfastly refused to withdraw support of the draft resolution, until Colonel Mahmud Abbas Eli Avraham showed the delegation, on the laptop which he was carrying, a video file which shows a conversation between Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak, in the presence of Tzipi Livini, in which Mahmoud Abbas appears trying to convince Barak about the “necessity” to continue the war on Gaza. Barak appeared hesitant and shaky in face of the enthusiasm of Mahmoud Abbas and the support of Livni to continue the war. The conversation appears to have taken place before the massacre in Gaza, during the year 2008.

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Is it inappropriate to point out here that many people pointed out early on that the administration was making a mistake in leaning so heavily on Mahmoud Abbas.

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no it's not

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Abbas really is finished. Let me predict another casualty: the coming Palestinian election. Now that Abbas has turned himself into the Bennedict Arnold of Palestine, there is no way he will risk an election.

Expect Israel to "diffuse some ticking time bombs", i.e., kill a lot of Palestinian "terrorists" over the next few months so that the World forgets about those elections.

And then Abbas will be awarded some more expresso machines for Ramallah, and the NYT will report on how tasty the coffee is.

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But why would the Obama administration undermine Abbas in this way? ...Not to mention that this also undermines their own credibility in playing the honest broker role. It seems entirely counterproductive if the goal really is to achieve some sort of breakthough. What are they thinking?

I'm still hoping for the release of Barghouti.

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Because they have fallen into the same error of every administration in thinking that they can manufacture reality instead of dealing with it.

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Even before this blow, a treaty between Abbas and the Israelis would have been meaningless. Perhaps this will make it so obvious to all that the negotiations must include Hamas. Maybe that is the silver lining here.

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"So called war crimes is just a lie ..."

Using human shields and terrorizing the civilian population IS A WAR CRIME and there is no doubt that those responsible will be brought to justice before the ICC. If not this year then next year, eventually they will face charges, and in the meantime they have to sleep at night with the images ..


1892. Allied to the systematic destruction of the economic capacity of the Gaza Strip, there appears also to have been an assault on the dignity of the people. This was seen not only in the use of human shields and unlawful detentions sometimes in unacceptable conditions, but also in the vandalizing of houses when occupied and the way in which people were treated when their houses were entered. The graffiti on the walls, the obscenities and often racist slogans, all constituted an overall image of humiliation and dehumanization of the Palestinian population.

1893. The operations were carefully planned in all their phases. Legal opinions and advice were given throughout the planning stages and at certain operational levels during the campaign. There were almost no mistakes made according to the Government of Israel. It is in these circumstances that the Mission concludes that what occurred in just over three weeks at the end of 2008 and the beginning of 2009 was a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability.

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"Using human shields and terrorizing the civilian population IS A WAR CRIME and there is no doubt that those responsible will be brought to justice before the ICC."

Great!! So all of the leadership of Hamas will be brought to justice, or just the top few leaders?

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You might want to double-check that report again...

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This administration doesn't much care if Abbas is percieved as their puppet; unlike MJ, they already KNOW that he's a placeholder for the real martinet-of-choice, "Sammy" Fayyad.

Ynetnews:

Report: Clinton pressured Abbas not to support Goldstone Report Published: 10.02.09, 11:20 / Israel News US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton telephoned Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to ask him not to support the content of the Goldstone Report, which investigated Operation Cast Lead in the Gaza Strip. She claimed that doing so would widen the gaps between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, according to a report on Al-Jazeera's website. According to the report, Abbas was under immense pressure from Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad, who spurred him to withdraw the PA's consent that the report be adopted by the UN. (Roi Kais)
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3784513,00.html

From Marc Lynch's excellent post on this subject:

Whatever gains made by Fatah after its Bethlehem conference and by Fayyad with the announcement of his agenda for a Palestinian state are likely to be washed away in this deluge. The credibility of the Hamas narrative about the PA's collaboration with Israel and unrepresentative nature will be strongly enhanced. And it will not help Salam Fayyad establish authority that he has been fingered by some sources as the person directly responsible for the decision.

http://lynch.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/10/04/pa_paying_the_price

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What were our policymakers thinking?

They were probably thinking that if Israel is punished for Gaza then the world community might get a taste in its mouth for punishing larger miscreants, like the US for example, which is at least a hundred times worse than Israel. Like in Fallujah, for example, as recounted in this news report: More than 83 percent of Fallujah's 300,000 residents fled the city, Mary Trotochaud and Rick McDowell, staffers with the American Friends Service Committee, reported in AFSC's Peacework magazine. Men between the ages of 15 and 45 were refused safe passage, and all who remained - about 50,000 - were treated as enemy combatants. . .

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I happen to find the Goldstone report execrable for reasons too numerous and complicated to list here. However, I admit that I was taken aback by Abbas' move - and am still scratching my (balding) pate trying to figure out why. The idea that he's simply a dupe doesn't cut it for me. There has to be something in it for him, no? Maybe this provides some explanation (then again, maybe it's just damage control):

If Israel does not soften its positions on the peace process, the Palestinian Authority will resume pushing to get the Goldstone report moved to the Security Council, and thence to the International Criminal Court, an associate of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas told Haaretz Tuesday.

Abbas' associate said that not only the U.S., but also Britain and China vehemently opposed the PA's original motion. And since all three have veto power in the Security Council, referral to the Security Council would have accomplished nothing except to antagonize three major powers, he explained.

Several Arab states also urged Abbas to withdraw the motion, after they too, came under pressure from Washington, he said.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1119360.html

And for all the commenters so excited that Abbas has been discredited while Hamas strengthened, thank you for revealing your true colors. Hint, it's not about peaceful co-existence.

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I happen to find the Goldstone report execrable

Of course you would, wouldn't you?

for reasons too numerous and complicated to list here.

Let's me simplify it for you. He correctly accused Israel of crimes against humanity.

However, I admit that I was taken aback by Abbas' move - and am still scratching my (balding) pate trying to figure out why. The idea that he's simply a dupe doesn't cut it for me. There has to be something in it for him, no?

Of course there is. He is US's Quisling. He is universally despised by Palestinians. He took his orders and followed them.


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The whole canard that the Israelis have no negotiating partner is debunked! Abbas is exactly the partner they want!

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AG's "drive by" rhetoric:

"I happen to find the Goldstone report execrable for reasons too numerous and complicated to list here."

Yes, I-don't-want-to-believe-that-my-beloved-Israel-commits-war-crimes is too complicated to list here. (Chuckle, chuckle.)

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Your conclusion about "revealing our true colors" about Hamas is a total non sequitur.

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What were our policymakers thinking?

The West has a natural, inalienable right to kill people in the Rest.

It's a very simple principle, and it must be defended at ALL cost. Once you understand this principle, a lot of what happens in the world becomes much easier to understand.

Principles rate higher that strategic concerns. Whereas strategies are advanced with a lot of careful thinking, principles are defended, come hell or high water, from the gut.

Propping up Abbas's Judenrat is an important strategic concern of the US. But defending the right of the White Man to kill the unworthy and the unwashed is the fundamental principle of our great civilization.

Asking the President of the US to let a Western Government stand trial for dropping bombs on dark and poor people is like asking the Chief Rabbi of Israel to eat pork.

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That you for stating this truth so clearly.

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"But defending the right of the White Man to kill the unworthy and the unwashed is the fundamental principle of our great civilization.

Asking the President of the US to let a Western Government stand trial for dropping bombs on dark and poor people is like asking the Chief Rabbi of Israel to eat pork."

The EU is not subject to the US principle stated above. Europe is a very much larger trading block that will eventually bring the perpetrators of the Gaza killing fields to justice. It may take time, but Olmert and Barak will face a court. In the meantime a small voice in their heads will remind them each night of the lives they violently ended as they played God over those three blood-drenched weeks, just 10 months ago, in their orgy of death and destruction amongst a civilian population.

They will not sleep well in the years ahead, just as another does not sleep.

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The Israeli government - and the lobby here - went into full "shoot the messenger" mode, attacking Goldstone rather than addressing the incidents described in his report.

Actually, MJ, that's not true. I read many criticisms of the report and all addressed its substances. As for Goldstone himself, the prevailing view was bafflement that a respected jurist would lend his name and credibility to such a blatant witch-hunt.

In fact, you can take a look at the Israeli Foreign Ministry response to the report here. http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/FC985702-61C4-41C9-8B72-E3876FEF0ACA/0/GoldstoneReportInitialResponse240909.pdf
As an educated commentator, I would hope you've seen it already. Tell me where it attacks Goldstone personally? You can't. Because it doesn't.

Here are some bits from the introduction:

1. The Report of the Fact-Finding Mission established pursuant to Human Rights Council resolution S-9/1 was instigated as part of a political campaign, and itself represents a political assault directed against Israel and against every State forced to confront terrorist threats.

2. In the eyes of the authors of the Report, Israel's operation in Gaza had nothing to do with the 12,000 rockets and mortars fired by Hamas over eight years on towns and villages inside Israel, nor with the fact that close to one million Israeli citizens had to live their lives within seconds of bomb-shelters because they were in range of Hamas attacks. Nor, in their view, did it have anything to do with the smuggling of weapons and ammunition to terrorist groups through hundreds of tunnels under the Gaza-Egypt border. Indeed, neither the right to self defense nor the smuggling of weapons into the Gaza Strip are even mentioned in the Report.

3. Rather, the Report advances a narrative which ignores the threats to Israeli civilians, as well as Israel's extensive diplomatic and political efforts to avoid the outbreak of hostilities. In this narrative self defense finds no place – Israel's defensive operation was nothing other than a "deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorize a civilian population"

4. In support of this vicious and unfounded assertion, the Report has no qualms about bending both facts and law. In the spirit of the one-sided mandate it was given by the HRC resolution, and the clearly stated political prejudices of some of its Members, of the Mission carefully selected its witnesses and the incidents it chose to investigate for clearly political ends. Yet even within this self-selected body of evidence, the Report engages in creative editing, misrepresentations of facts and law, and repeatedly adopts evidentiary double standards, attributing credibility to every anti-Israel allegation, and invariably dismissing evidence that indicates any wrongdoing by Hamas.

5. The Report repeatedly downplays or ignores the reality of terrorist threats, and the complexity of the military challenges in urban warfare. It also goes far beyond its mandate as a fact-finding mission, making legal and judicial determinations of criminal wrongdoing, even in the absence of crucial information.

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The above Foreign Ministry rushed-out defense has nothing whatsoever to do with:

1. Deliberate attacks by the Israeli army on civilians
2. 1400 Gazans killed in three weeks
3. The illegal use of white phosphorus
4. Israeli violations of the right to free movement
5. Dehumanization
6. Torture and punishment
7. Violations of international human rights and humanitarian law
8. The arbitrary deprivation of life


It merely repeats the excuse for the civilian mass killings on the undeniable fact that some thousands of home-made rockets had been fired from Gaza onto one Israeli town over many years and had caused some injury and a small number of deaths over that period of time.

That is not a reason to kill hundreds of unarmed civilians, neither is it an excuse to illegally use white phosphorus, or to attack schools, or to target children, or to use Palestinians as human shields, or to vandalize property, or to torture civilians, or to demolish the civic infrastructure or to treat international law with such contempt.

Of course, Israel will rush to deny the allegations and spend hundreds of thousands of pounds in a panic attempt to try to discredit an authorized and well-researched report from an internationally recognized jurist.

Of course Israeli troops and their commanders are not guilty. How could they be. The 310 children were clearly a threat and had to be liquidated. Everybody understands that. That's just warfare!

Or is it? From being in the military for seven years, I can tell you that armies of democratic countries do not target women and children, ever.

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Why Did We Pressure Palestinians To Deep Six Goldstone Report?

I don't see what the mystery is. Seems pretty clear to me. The Palestinian amabassador to the U.N. said why, very directly and clearly, to the New York Times:

The Americans argued that pushing the report now would derail the Middle East peace process that they are trying to revive, diplomats said.

"We don't want to create an obstacle for them," Ibrahim Khraishi, the Palestinian ambassador to the United Nations in Geneva, said by telephone from Geneva, where the Human Rights Council is based. "We want to get a strong resolution to deal with the report in a good manner to get a benefit from it."....

What's a mystery is why your narratives so often depend on suggesting people are lying, often twisting others' words right in front of everyone's eyes to somehow prove "the lobby" is directing everything. That's what you tried to imply about Obama's AIPAC speech, too, and other things he has said about Israel and Iran, etc. Consider that sometimes some people are saying what they mean. Especially Obama, his record is actually pretty strong on that front, better than with most politicians.

It's so clear that the current interaction with Iran is a shake up in the region that, depending on how it goes, may offer an opportunity for progress with the IP issue, in dealing with one of Israel's favorite bogeymen in the area. They keep yelling that nobody cares and isn't doing anything about it, well, now they are.

To have the Security Council talking about Israel as a past war criminal at the same time sort of ruins the whole zeitgeist, it would make them dig in their heels as they always do when a large number of countries are attacking them as evil. Talking about spilt milk is not the way forward, even if one thinks the spilt milk unjust. And any smart negotiator in any situation would seek to have the parties involved stop talking past grievances. A classic question for peace negotiators to use is almost always: do you want peace or do you want retribution?

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I'm confused. I thought the Road to Jerusalem went through Baghdad. Now, it goes through Tehran. Then it will go through Riyadh. Then through Cairo. Then through Tripoli...

And in about 10 years, there will be no part of the West Bank left to build a Palestinian state and we will be told that removing 500,000 Isareli Jews would amount to ethnic cleansing.

Result: All roads lead to nowhere.

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Your post suggests that Israel has some innate, some inherent geo-political importance.

In point of fact, Israel has no geo-political or strategic importance to anyone - other than Israel itself.

She has no natural resources and is non-self sustaining. Her economy is dependent on aid, arms sales and cut diamonds.

Israel's USP is as part of the Holy Land. Period.

Do you not think that perhaps your perception of Israel as a key player in the world is a little exaggerated? Without access to European markets under an EU agreement, she would be dependent on her bilateral trade with the US which is insufficient to support her economy even with US aid currently running at $3billion per annum.


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I get your drift. As you know, I have previously posted that "defending Israel" sounds a lot better than "defending Medieval Saudi Monarchy." And, yes, Israel serves a very important purpose in keeping the Western powers in the ME.

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Actually Just the opposite. (I don't know how much more strongly I could express it than in that link.)

Have trouble telling the difference between an attempt at analysis and expressing personal political opinions, eh? I've noticed spending too much time reading screaming opinions can do that to people...

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And any smart negotiator in any situation...

What you don't seem to get is that "any smart negotiator", first and foremost, has to be trusted by those he is supposed to represent. Even Armchair understands the enormous damage done and is scratching his head over the US pressure brought to bear on Abbas et al. The widespread blowback was entirely predictable to those with even a minimal knowledge of the situation.

That's what's so puzzling to so many and suggests that at minimum, the Obama administration was inept or worse, were strategerizing in a Machiavellian manner to get rid of Abbas entirely.

The net effect is that Abbas et al have perhaps, completely destroyed their already marginal credibility and it's doubtful that the threats to reverse directions @ the UNSC and the General Assembly (through Libya) will suffice to convince the Palestinians of their legitimacy.

You may believe that what the Palestinians think is immaterial, but that's not the message the Obama administration has been promoting.

They shot themselves in the foot with this one and the repercussions are reverberating far beyond Ramallah and threatening to demolish the promising effects of the Cairo speech.

This mess is only getting uglier and threatens to envelop other American "ally" regimes in the region.

Stay tuned.

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Even Armchair

Have I become some kind of measuring stick for the "pro-Israel" set here? Interesting how taking the position that Israel is not the fount of evil and oppression in the Middle East can lead to that kind of labeling. It seems particularly difficult for many to comprehend that there are two sides to this conflict, neither of which has a monopoly on virtue.

I think artappraiser gets it right, actually. The question is, do you want peace or retribution? Unfortunately, I believe the overwhelming majority of Palestinian society and undoubtedly their leadership (as well as the vast majority of commenters here who align themselves with the most irredentist elements of that society) choose the latter. Israeli brutality and intransigence has not helped either in encouraging leaders on the other side who advocate peaceful co-existence.

So here we are again. I'm staying tuned, but I don't expect much to change...

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The point was that you were among those puzzled by the administration's moves.

Stick to the issue.

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yep, a million and a half people in an open air concentration camp attacked, 1400 people dead, the majority of them non-combatants, of which over 300 children, people shot waiving white flags, shot while walking to where the soldiers told them to go, bombing attacks on all major hospitals, destruction of food supply, all this is "spilled milk."

Thanks for the honesty. All this balderdash about "international law," the Nuremberg Trials, the UN declaration of human Rights, The Geneva and Hague Conventions, so many people with too much time on their hand running around the world with paper towel to clean spilled milk.

God how we miss those good times when you could just put a few million people in a camp and kill them. Don't we?

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Your absolute faith in the righteousness of only one side of this conflict really is a mirror image of the most extreme settler fanatics. Fortunately, your views are so far outside the mainstream (with the exception of the Jew-hating far left) as to have no discernable impact. Unfortunately, enough people who are actually involved share your repugnant views that a peaceful compromise seems near impossible.

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I'm sorry to inform you but there is such a thing as objective judgment. Not everything is halfway between what each side claims. That is why sometimes, a trial, after hearing the evidence, results in a conviction, not in a call for the parties to meet halfway.

As a Jewish Israeli, I have not come to understand the truth about Israel from learning it at school. I studies it and experienced it. Fortunately, my position is shared by the majority of humanity. Unfortunately, yours is shared by a majority of the rich, affluent, and ignorant. Enjoy it while it lasts.

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Perhaps Obama was thinking that since, when it comes to Israel, the UN is one of the few sticks in his arsenal that it is possible for the Executive Branch to wield independent of the Legislative Branch, that the threat of the Goldstone Report might be a bigger motivator to get Israel's attention than its actual implementation. The Goldstone report has not been deep-sixed. The PA leadership have been convinced to postpone pressing it until March.

Obama modified his insistence that Israel halt all settlement activity before meaningful peace talks could begin. Why? He's giving Israel a small window to show that it takes peace negotiations seriously. Netanyahu doesn't want peace talks anyway and even when he is slightly pressured by Obama he finds a way to wiggle out of a total settlement freeze. The Palestinians are in the situation of the settlements increasing whether peace talks precede or not. They certainly don't want to be in the situation they were in during Oslo when the peace talks dragged on for years, all while settlement construction was in high gear.

The only way that a stick can be credible is if people believe that one has the ability and will to use it. If Obama has made promises to the Palestinians that if they postpone pushing the Goldstone Report the US will make a concerted effort on the peace process and if Netanyahu continues to be intransigent (or to say, "sure, sure" and then do whatever he likes), then, in the Spring, Obama needs to be prepared to allow the UN to handle the Goldstone report without obstruction from the US.

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A stick, held in abeyance, to wield at a later date if Israel does not come to the negotiating table in good faith. Now that makes sense. Thanks.

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My last post was intended in reply to artappraiser.

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mythbuster said... And in about 10 years, there will be no part of the West Bank left to build a Palestinian state and we will be told that removing 500,000 Isareli Jews would amount to ethnic cleansing.

I think this type of low-end jostling by both sides has been the plan for both sides for a long time.

The Israelis want to create a larger country and defensible borders through settlements. They pulled out of Gaza because it wasn't really defensible. They push into the West Bank because there is land and valuable water resources.

The Palestinians want to take over Israel though "the right of return". It's also why they keep screaming about access to Israel's economy, rather than attempting to build one of their own. The more people they can get over the border, the better chance they have of eventually taking over through shear numbers.

In this type of warfare, and make no doubt that it is a type of warfare, Israel happens to have the stronger position, in no small part because of long-term U.S. support. The best deal that the Palestinians could have reasonably hoped for was flushed by Arafat.

I think the most likely outcome is that Israel will eventually throw their hands in the air (dramatically, of course), say they give up, extend the wall a bit, and determine the borders of a highly ghettoized Palestine. When the Palestinians lob rockets, Israel will return fire, making the Palestinian territory near the border a scorched no-man's land.

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I think you have been channeling BTD and AnnaA. I love the language: Israel will "throw their hands in the air." You make it sound like Israel is a mediator, instead of a perpetrator.

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Actually, it's neither. Israel is simply one party in a war that is now actively being waged by two parties. I just happen to think that if they follow that strategy, they'll end up closer to what they want than the Palestinians will.

That, of course, makes the current Palestinian course of action look pretty self-defeating. The best chance they've had in recent memory of getting most of what they wanted died a quick death when Arafat intentionally killed it. The ensuing chaos helped keep him in power, as it does Hamas, but it sucks for the people they pretend to represent.

At the moment, there isn't anybody in power on either side who is serious about a peace settlement.

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LFC - Just so you know, it's against the rules here to point out that there are two sides to the conflict. Doing so can lead to being labeled as a "neocon" or "hasbara"-ist.

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nope.

It is ok to point out there are two sides. It is against common sense as well as common decency to pretend that the two sides are equal or even remotely comparable.


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Er ... the LIKUD party of Israel's aim is for a Greater Israel that extends north-south from the Syrian/Lebanon border all the way down to Eilat on the Red Sea and including the entire West Bank and Jerusalem. i.e. All land west of the Jordan.

That involves the forced 'transfer' of all Palestinians from their land to a neighboring country.

The 'low-end jostling' as you put it is a deadly serious game in which the prize is the dispossession of the remaining indigenous people of the Holy Land. LIKUD will never agree to any Palestinian state west of the Jordan river, that is why they make it impossible.

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The 'low-end jostling' as you put it is a deadly serious game...

Hence the reason I referred to it as "warfare".

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Here, I return later and after a few days, find that not many have a sense of humor. To wit, I find that the Nobel was given to the American People for the majority of votes cast in November, and thusly, Obama is the only avenue open for its recognition by the Prize Committee. Of course, this recognition was observed by Dr. Josh Marshall as a "dark aberration" of the Bush/Cheney years. And yet, I much prefer my perjorative for the Era of the Criminally Stupid.

And said sadly on my part, Mr. Anna is still the confused conservative and is not able to change for the foreseeable future. Thus, the 'unassailable' facts are wasted on him.

Jaango

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