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FDR and Marcy Kaptur Star in Michael Moore's Teriffic "Capitalism" A Love Story"

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I saw "Capitalism: A Love Story" today and, like all Moore films, I enjoyed it immensely. Moore views capitalism as the root of all evil. We've heard and read it all before but who, other than Moore, can turn that theme into an entertaining film?

Toward the end I thought he would cop out by portraying Barack Obama as representing the end of the system he despises. Moore celebrates Obama's victory in some lovely scenes. But he does not portray Obama as our liberator from Wall Street. .

No, that role is reserved for a President who has been dead 64 years. Moore shows an FDR speech from 1944 in which he outlined a Second Bill of Rights, an Economic Bill of Rights. The text is here.

FDR is on camera for a few minutes, talking about his vision for America after WW2 is won. I was in a packed theater. And when Roosevelt finished, the audience burst into applause.

Maybe if Obama sounded more like FDR he could not only galvanize the base and scare the Bluedogs. Maybe he could even tap into the fury that is energizing the crazy right. FDR knew how to take the anger of the working class and point it at the plutocracy. Somehow the Democrats today either can't or won't do that.

Obama needs to channel FDR. Fast. Because, people, we are not winning.

One last point. FDR is not the only hero in the film. The other is Rep. Marcy Kaptur of Ohio who points out the utter unfairness of the system. She speaks calmly and brilliantly and yet speaks the language of economic revolution. If we had 100 like her in Congress (we don't) , we could transform that place into the people's house. She is fantastic.


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The only problem with insisting that Obama be FDR is that FDR wasn't FDR, not until at least 1935, and in a real and meaningful way FDR didn't become FDR till he was dead.

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Exactly Right!

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FDR, first inaugural address, 1933:

"[The current crisis has occurred] primarily... because rulers of the exchange of mankind's goods have failed through their own stubbornness and their own incompetence, have admitted their failure, and have abdicated. Practices of the unscrupulous moneychangers stand indicted in the courts of public opinion, rejected by the hearts and minds of men... The money changers have fled from their high seats in the temple of our civilization. We may now restore that temple to the ancient truths. The measure of the restoration lies in the extent to which we apply social values more noble than mere monetary profit."

Roosevelt followed up these words in the famous "first 100 days" with the devastating Pecora Congressional Commission, which exposed and documented the Wall Street dirty dealings that had fueled the stock market bubble and collapse. The head of National City Bank (now Citibank) had to resign in disgrace. As a result, the most far-reaching banking regulation ever passed in the U.S.--certainly much tougher than anything now in place, or even proposed by the Obama administration--sailed through Congress.

And more, including a stimulus bill that actually went mostly to putting people back to work. Yes, the further reforms of 1935-36 went much further (Social Security established). But from the very first, Roosevelt fronted a "take no prisoners" attitude to the financial industry and the rich in general, and that helped enormously in gathering public support for his increasingly radical reforms.

Who thinks Obama will be able to pass the equivalent of a newly-created Social Security program in 2011? I'd love to think so, but there's a price to pay for his determined unwillingness to point fingers at villains. And it ain't the bankers who'll be paying it...

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Can't wait to see it. I think you're right on, MJ. More FDR, less RWR.

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Mj is starting to sound like Rotwang. Scary. But the good news is that he's got a ways to go yet.

MJ: Maybe if Obama sounded more like FDR he could not only galvanize the base and scare the Bluedogs. Maybe he could even tap into the fury that is energizing the crazy right. FDR knew how to take the anger of the working class and point it at the plutocracy. Somehow the Democrats today either can't or won't do that. Obama needs to channel FDR. Fast.
Rotwang: The sad reality is that to achieve political power in America, you have to master the delusions of the public. If people think the moon is made of green cheese, you have to explicate this better than the other guy.

Now if we only had a president that would listen to MJ and/or Rotwang instead of sitting on that damn fence . . .
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YES! I sympathize immensely.

Decisions and his appointments following the election seem to indicate that the man had planned his stances, had it all down and laid out in advance (taking advantage of the blowback to those of Bush II).

Contrarily, some would day that being faced with the gamut of problems (which stolidly remain in place), that the man decided to hew to the center and powers that be, so to speak. This to avoid chaos, total collapse and bloodshed.

I've given up on the romantic idea of Lincoln's Union preserved. If chaos and collapse could possibly result in disintegration, that the coastal states could separate and establish their own estates - and be rid of the red states forever - I say hallelujah.

Imagine: North Central America. New England. The Pacific States of America. Yessirree Japhy, you were so right: "Register your absense with The Null and Void Trust Company."

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FDR knew how to take the anger of the working class and point it at the plutocracy. Somehow the Democrats today either can't or won't do that.

There is a reason for this.
Democrats today Are the Plutocracy. They get elected by the Plutocracy, genuflect to the Plutocracy and are part and partial to the Plutocracy.

C

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"And the banks -- hard to believe in a time when we're facing a banking crisis that many of the banks created -- are still the most powerful lobby on Capitol Hill. And they frankly own the place."-- Senator Dick Durbin

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Moore made effective use of Catholic priests in the film. Their acerbic comments about capitalism are probably a majority opinion among the priesthood, and probably still carry weight with a lot of people.

The only quibble I had with an otherwise on target film was the statement that banks wanted to "take" peoples' houses. I'm sure in most cases that was the last thing they wanted. What they did want to do was ripoff subprime borrowers with steadily increasing monthly payments on fraudulent mortgage contracts.

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FIAT EMPIRE - Why the Federal Reserve Violates the U.S. Constitution
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5232639329002339531#

This 60-minute documentary is an excellent primer for the citizen or student who wants to get an understanding of how money is created and why the U.S. government has entered into a partnership with elite Wall Street banks.

The Constitution Speaks

Article I, Section 8, Clause 5 of the Constitution states that Congress shall have the power:

"To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures". [1]

"Article I, Section 10, Clause 1: No State shall... coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debt." [2]

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."
Thomas Jefferson

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Obama has likely missed his opportunity. It's not unlike Bush with 9-11, when the world was his oyster.

Obama rode in on a wave of popularity, with the rage of the economic crisis in the hearts of the public to fuel his advance to bring the change he promised.

Instead, he backed away, rather than mobilizing the public with regard to the economy by pushing health care reform and single payer. Imagine how many would have taken to the streets.

The window is now almost closed. It will take another calamity to push it open, and with Afghanistan looming, he may blow it completely.

So much for experience not counting. He not only lacked that, but never really fought a battle against true adversity. I still wonder sometimes what are his core principles.

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yeah, his entire presidency was a total failure...oh, wait.

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The poll trends are not good. Obama's Job Approval since Jan 27 has gone down from the mid 60's to near 50%, while Disapproval has gone up from 20 to 41% -- and looking at unemployment, Afghanistan and healthcare with a $1.6tn annual deficit is not encouraging, is it.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_obama_job_approval-1044.html
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Keep watching. Obama may yet learn. He may even discover his core. But the constellation of events do not occur often, and he may never have that opportunity to make the change he so often alluded to, except on the fringes.

He will have a chance to make change through his judicial appointments, but usually it takes some unforeseen event to shift the dynamics, and he has shown he is not much of a change agent to date, tranformationally speaking.

That said, your comment borders on the inane, and sounds like what how one in junior high would reply, both in tone and substance. You mean, he really has completed his presidency? Thank you for that useful information! I never would have known.

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But it isn't just a matter of experience. It is also a matter of intent. Obama never had any intention of changing much of anything. "Change we can believe in" was only a campaign slogan. Nothing he ever said on the campaign trail or as President has ever given the slightest glimmer of hope that he would actually do anything that would bring real change. He used vague and misleading language to make people think that is what he would do, but the truth is he is in favor of restoring and strengthening the status quo, not in changing it.

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This was pretty clear:

there is not a liberal America

--Obama, 2004
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"Maybe if Obama sounded more like FDR he could not only galvanize the base and scare the Bluedogs. Maybe he could even tap into the fury that is energizing the crazy right. FDR knew how to take the anger of the working class and point it at the plutocracy. Somehow the Democrats today either can't or won't do that."

MJ, you are a hopeless sentimentalist. You have never understood or accepted (despite the ubiquitous evidence) that Obama has no intention whatsoever of being a New Deal Democrat or even a liberal. Obama is a DLC corporate Democrat through and through. If he exerted one ounce of leadership on real healthcare reform for example (as opposed to his health insurance subsidy scheme)we would have it because the populace would explode with support for real healthcare reform which we desperately want and need. Instead we are sold a rotten health insurance subsidy bill and pray that some pale imitation of a public option survives the Baucus Caucus treatment. Look how the whole nation stood up and noticed when Rep. Grayson showed the true Democratic flag for God's sake.

The fact is, Obama and his crowd would much rather cater to the very same interests Bush catered to and you can find all the minor deviations from that sad fact you want, it doesn't change the fact that Obama and the DLC/corporate Democrats of Congress, while representing a marginal improvement over the Republicans, are not the change we sought, are not the change we voted for and are never, ever going to lead us toward any of the items listed by FDR in his second bill of rights.

We need either to force Obama and the other corporate Democrats to start acting in the interests of the people of this country or to get rid of them and elect more Graysons, Kapturs, and other Democrats like them.

Moore's film was superb and made very clear in it's condemnation of Summers and Geithner that Obama is not on our side, not for real change, and not going to do anything to upset his corporate masters.

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You are precisely right, oleeb. We are afforded the democracy that the corporate owners will allow. Nothing more.

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Too bad he worried more about a "Lincoln Cabinet" and concentrated on Abraham Lincoln. He should have concentrated on FDR and all the things he kept trying after the Stock Market crash in 1929.

And when are people going to pound the internet about that Phil Gramm Amendment (some 200 pgs) that got inserted into one of those huge Spending Bills in 1999 - that blew away the Glass-Steagall Act?

Listen to Senator Byron Dorgan warn us on Nov 4, 1999...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/4/8/717702/-VIDEO-from-1999:-Byron-Dorgan

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FDR lived at a time when communism was widely considered to be a viable ideology superior to capitalism. Many on the Left still believe it...but no one else does.

Moore's blather about "democracy" is just that; blather. The great unwashed don't know shit, never did, never will.

Capitalism depends upon unending access to cheap and abundant resources, particularly clean air, clean water, good land. So it's failing at an ever-increasing rate. Communism depends upon a completely crazy assessment of human nature. It never had a chance. Early in the last century an attempt was made to come to grips with overpopulation and limited resources. Hitler put an end to that line of thought.

So we are left with nothing. No intellectual framework whatever to deal with our problems.

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Well at least there's still booze and sex.

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Communism depends upon a completely crazy assessment of human nature.

Well, that is a very bizarre assessment. The Soviet regime delivered a higher rate of industrialization in its first five decades than in any comparable time in US history, and that is despite going through the hugely destructive WW-II. It took a backward and agrarian society with an utterly sclerotic governance and turned it in five decades into the second most powerful country on the planet, beating the US to space, and winning the war over the biggest industrial power of the time, Nazi Germany.

That's a hell of an achievement. Now, if you measure the Soviet system by the yardstick of personal liberty, it scores very low, but then that is hardly unique. Within a short period of its institution, Soviet communism became a regime focused on economic growth, industrialization, and national defense, not on personal liberty, and on all three counts it was very successful for quite a long while.

As for human welfare, the jury is still out. Soviet communism was extremely brutal and oppressive, and yet to judge by current attitudes in Russia, with Stalin scoring as the third best Russian leader ever in popular perception, one can come to a conclusion things have actually got worse for many Russians since the fall of communism.

Now, I am not suggesting the Soviet system as a model for emulation, far from it. But ideas have to be evaluated in the relevant context if we are to learn something from historical experience. The notion that "communism is based on a crazy idea of human nature" is just a piece of right-wing propaganda that has been repeated so widely that it became self-evident without a moment of reflection. Communism assumes nothing about human nature that is different than what is widely known about human nature.

I you learn to evaluate ideas by the way they are represented in propaganda whose goal is to render you helpless, is it a wonder that you have no useful framework to think with?

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Let's examine your "facts".

The Soviet Union was playing catch-up so its rate of industrialization cannot be compared to ours.

It's backward and agrarian society was not as backward or agrarian as you claim. During the first years of the century Russia was already industrializing rapidly.

Nazi Germany was not the biggest industrial power of the time. The United States was, far and away, which is why Hitler used the word "astronomical" to describe its output. The Soviets never could have beaten the Nazis without the benefit of that output.

The Nazis, too, achieved great things under a brutal dictatorship, going from the depths of anarchy and poverty to the greatest military machine the world had ever known in the space of 6 or 7 years. It's well-known that such things can be achieved under dictatorial conditions. Look what the U.S. achieved during the 4 war years 1941-45 (I know your bias makes it difficult for you to do that...but at least try.

Following WWII the Soviet Union collapsed, unable to compete with us. The Russians said about their own system "We pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us". Human beings are highly competitive and highly territorial. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" denies both of those attributes.

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Nazism was pretty good using your analysis too. And America with slavery was about as productive a system as you'll find anywhere.
So if you subject human rights (including the right to live) Nazism, Soviet Communism, and the antebellum south were great.
The jury is not out yet.

PS I'm biased. My wife's parents were slave laborers in the Soviet Onion for 6 years.

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The problem with evildoer is one that is typical of many "scientific" communists, namely they loath to inject any "value" considerations (as in moral value) in their calculations. So they claim to be examining valueless historical processes that will just by coincidence lead to a just social order. Only they can't really say "just social order" cause you know, being tough materialist and all forbids them such namby pamby talk.

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he problem with evildoer is one that is typical of many "scientific" communists,

If you want to diagnose my problem, you'd better at least read what I said, which included "by the yardstick of personal liberty, it scores very low," and "Soviet communism was extremely brutal and oppressive," and I am not suggesting the Soviet system as a model for emulation,"

So I don't know what I am typical, but you are typical of lazy reading, and vapid stereotyping instead of addressing the point, which is that Soviet communism was a real historical phenomenon, and as regimes go was quite if not extremely successful for a long while on economic benchmarks. Spider did not criticize communism for ethical failure, but for being unworkable due to some theoretical mistake about human nature. This is simply false. If you substitute generalize crap for historical analysis, you should expect being helpless to analyze what is happening.

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I'm not critical of your views on Soviet Communism, but have my reservations about your antipathy to a healthy full-throttled utilization of moral concepts in your commentary. This originates with Marx himself, as the excerpt from a Marx scholar point out below.

“Marx and Engels, According to Lenin, lay more emphasis on the dialectic than on materialism. They certainly reject all philosophy which opposes dialectical and historical thinking. In opposition to old mechanical materialism and “abstract Idealism”, they advocate dialectical materialism and it is in the name of this materialism that they condemn bourgeois class-oriented morality and predict the inevitable advent of an active, dynamic and humanistic morality—the fighting morality of the proletariat. While almost all Marxist reiterate Marx’s and Engels’ view that existing morality is either bourgeois or human, Marxist commentator cannot agree as to whether Marxist ethics and morality could also be characterized as naturalistic….. “…”It is true of course that young Marx treats communism as naturalism. In his mature writing, however, his interest in naturalism seems to have evaporated. From the point of view of moral philosophy, Marx’s ethics could be treated only as a corrupt form of naturalism. As naturalism tends to degenerate either into egoism—Hobbes’ egoistic naturalism—or into skepticism—Hume’s sympathetic naturalism, Marx must have rejected at least these forms of naturalism…

It is obvious from Marx’s and Engles’ utterances about ethics and morality that they are not moral philosophers as they fail to discuss any aspect of human behavior in a systematic and philosophical way. They merely scorn the existing ethics of their time, avoiding explaining and coordinating the changing forms of its historical development. They overlook the fact that, although the pattern of man’s moral life may be very different in different ages, the inner texture of this life and man’s endeavor towards moral progress are always the same. We do not need Marx and Engels to remind us of the discrepancy between moral principles and moral practice. Such is the nature of morality that even dialectical materialism depends on its existence…. The principle weakness of Marx’s Ethics is the assumption that man and his spiritual goals are nothing but a product of material and external forces and that morality is always dependent on material production and socio-economic relations.

Marx’s dogma that socio-economic conditions alone are the roots of all forms of morality must be discarded. Another effect of Marxist ethics lies in its tendency to ignore the morality of the individual and subjugate it into some implausible notion of a collective morality.

Yet, in spite of the vagueness, ambivalence and inconsistency permeating Marx’s utterances about ethics and morality, his assertion of the dignity of man as a rational and conscious being is a sublime and momentous moral truth.

From: Marxism and Morality, A Critical Examination of Marxist Ethics (Nicholas Churchich)

Note to evildoer: That’s why I found your objection to my previous posts in which I interlaced fact and value freely to be indicative of your Marxist bias on the subject; a bias that is widely criticized by all who read Marx carefully.

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How odd that anyone offers any defense of Soviet Communism. Were it not for the takeover of the Russian revolution by Lenin, Trotsky and other thugs, the 20th century probably would not have been the bloodiest century in world history.
Funny, one can defend the Bolsheviks but if one defends the Nazis, one is considered a nutcase.
To me, Leninism, Stalinism and Nazism were the worst curses ever inflicted on humanity.
But maybe that is because my own family lost so many people to those ideologies (it was their own fault, I guess, for being Poles and Jews).

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How odd that whenever you are out of your depth, which is about two minutes into every discussion, you appeal to piety to shut down your mind, in the typical maccarthyte gesture that is the foundation of the US media self-inflicted stupidity.

I did not offer a "defense" of soviet communism, just as I did not offer a defense of Nazism, and just as noting that slavery worked for a long time and was a very effective way to develop the U.S. is not a "defense" of slavery.

I asked for some seriousness, not reducing history to propaganda slogans, and dividing economic systems according to whether they are "for" or "against" an imaginary human nature.

I know intellectual seriousness is hard for you, so I'm willing to help you train, every day a few more exercises for your brain and maybe in a few years you will be able to think on your own. Now pull, hold tight, release, again...pull. hold, tight, release, that's it! Are you tired already?

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Uh, isn't that photo Karl Marx?

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Jolly of you to have noticed. I'm impressed.

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Nazism was pretty good using your analysis too. And America with slavery was about as productive a system as you'll find anywhere.

You are correct. Nazism successfully engineered a recovery from a hyper-inflationary collapse, and slavery was the foundation on which the US built its wealth. The original point was not that communism was unethical but that it was inherently inefficient because of a theoretical mistake. That is horse manure.

As I said, Soviet communism IS NOT a model to emulate. however, it shouldn't be emulated because it sacrificed lives and happiness on the altar of economic growth and industrialization, and concentrated the benefits of the system at a small circle at the top.

In other words, what was wrong with soviet communism is what it shares with capitalism, not what opposed it to capitalism.

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Capitalists used growth to try spread the wealth and ameliorate the emotional damage caused by competitive failure while communists used the law and psychological coercion to do the same thing.

Both failed because competition and inequality are central to human nature and because the earth is finite.

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Communism assumes nothing about human nature that is different than what is widely known about human nature.

Well apparently you are not taking into consideration the historical dialectic as described by Hegel and then Marx. There is an element of perfectibility in the writings of both these philosophers.
To put it another way, there is an unwarranted assumption of unlimited plasticity of human nature that needs only the right social condition to bring on the utopian state.

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Can you give me a citation for that?

For Hegel progress ended with the liberal nation state. Hard to argue with the fact that the liberal nation state is possible. Marx never wrote a significant thesis about utopia. And the historical dialectics doesn't concern human nature except in the basic idea that human beings create their material world through work and their social world through the social relations of production that make that work possible.

Marx does criticize the ideologically laden and uncritical use of concepts like "human nature" to justify contingent social arrangements. And that seems to me eminently valid. Humans lived through huge variations of social orders. Anybody who claims to have discovered the one "most adapted" to it is most certainly a fraud. That criticism, which you accuse Marx of, is taken for granted by practically every anthropologist working today. So you basically accuse Marx of an original intellectual contribution that is today mainstream social science. Guilty as charged!

That has absolutely nothing to do with communism except in right-wing propaganda. The Bible says "Do not Steal." Why do you not accuse Judaism of failing to notice that human beings are naturally inclined to take things from other people by force or by stealth?

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Judaism doesn't fail to notice. It chooses to oppose...and that opposition is an explanation of its repeated failures.

You say "Humans lived through huge variations of social orders" and "Anybody who claims to have discovered the one "most adapted" to it is most certainly a fraud". I say those statements are only the beginning of a discussion and should not be accepted uncricically. As you note "human beings are naturally inclined to take things from other people by force or by stealth". There are many other things human beings are "naturally" inclined to do or feel. Social orders can accept or oppose those natural inclinations but they cannot ignore them.

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of course one must take into account how people behave. It is you who have suggested that the Soviet system ignored that. There is little substance to this. It is a caricature of how the system actually worked. you might want to read for example, Mancur Olson's account of Stalin's labor strategies (in Power and Prosperity) to see how far this is from reality. (Olson is anything but a communist). This wouldn't matter if it were merely ignorance. We are all ignorant of a lot of things. The problem with this caricature of communism is that it is one generated on purpose by apologists for capitalism to scare the children, and this is therefore directly harmful to understanding our own system.

Now, I really don't know what it means not to accept uncritically the wide variability of human forms of ordering their lives. Perhaps you want explain? Are you arguing that it isn't so? To repeat, one of Marx's most enduring contributions to social science was the analysis of the concept of ideological representations, that is representations of reality that make certain contingent arrangements that benefit dominant groups look natural, timeless and inevitable. This is something that has penetrated culture at large, although often only in respect of things past. for example, it is now clear to most everybody that the science that explained why black people were naturally inferior and incapable of self-governance was an ideological representation that described as anchored in nature what was a contingent arrangement that benefited slave-owners.

The concept of "human nature" used in social darwinism and neo-classic economics, that see people as inherently competitive, possessive, and utility maximizing, and therefore only capable of thriving in systems that reflect and magnify these tendencies, is also an ideological representation in that sense. Human beings are all of these things, but they are also a lot of other things, including co-operative, generous, fair-minded, ethical, emotional, irrational, loyal, etc. And human beings have thrived in vastly different forms of social organization, from the monastic community to the wild West, from the amazonian tribe to the Singaporean dictatorship. This representation of "human nature" merely serves to justify the superiority of one political and economic system by anchoring its contingent features in eternal nature.

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In brief.

Of course, human beings exhibit behaviors other than competitiveness, fear, greed, lust, etc. No society could exist without them. Hobbes exaggerated the importance of the latter. But the Soviets got it wrong too. That's why they had to resort to such a brutal regime to implement their ideology, why that regime collapsed under the weight of a dysfunctional bureaucracy and an apathetic populace once that brutality was removed, why the new Soviet man looked very much like a lazy lout despite 70 years of effort to make him into something better.

Even the kibbutzim, which were communitarian in the best sense of the word, ultimately failed for the same reason; a poor understanding of human nature. Human differences are inherent. The incompetent and the lout exist for biological reasons, among others. Capitalism has no trouble with that. Such people get the crumbs and the worst jobs. Communism has to pretend they don't exist or can be re-formed.

You also refer to the diversity of human societies and the propensity of dominant groups to justify their dominance any way they can. But virtually all societies have produced dominant groups. In that sense, human societies are not diverse at all.

Which brings me to the subject of my original post.

If peak oil and environmental threats are not real, or can be overcome or worked around by means of technology, then the current economic problems are no threat to capitalism. They merely represent an adjustment - very painful for most citizens of the United States - to the new global economy.

However, if those threats are real and cannot be ameliorated by means of technology, then massive and rapid depopulation are the order of the day...and no social organization extent today can deal with it.

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That criticism, which you accuse Marx of, is taken for granted by practically every anthropologist working today. So you basically accuse Marx of an original intellectual contribution that is today mainstream social science.

Not sure that every anthropologist is on board with that, but even if so by what right does an anthropologist claim expertise in ethics? Only insofar as they are willing to meander along the path of what Moor cals the Naturalistic Fallacy.

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I don't get your point. Where did I appeal to anthropology to make an ethical argument here? The naturalistic fallacy is precisely to argue of the basis of human nature, as if from the fact that we are greedy, it follows that we should be greedy or that greed should be encouraged.

The anthropological variety of human social organizations adds an inductive dimension to the fallacy of deducing moral arguments from "human nature."

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in communism man exploits man; in capitalism it's the opposite.

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The initial argument that Marx must have thought that capitalism is unjust is based on the observation that Marx argued that all capitalist profit is ultimately derived from the exploitation of the worker. Capitalism's dirty secret is that it is not a realm of harmony and mutual benefit but a system in which one class systematically extracts profit from another. How could this fail to be unjust? Yet it is notable that Marx never concludes this, and in Capital he goes as far as to say that such exchange is ‘by no means an injustice’_______Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

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and in Capital he goes as far as to say that such exchange is ‘by no means an injustice’_______Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

This shows the value of second hand summary. Are you really going to get a fair account of one of the most radical thinkers in history from an encyclopedia?

Marx was in (excessive) love of irony as a writing style, which did him no good, because one can always cite a sentence he said to poke fun at something as if it were his position.

As part of his labor theory of value, which I btw consider of little use in describing contemporary capitalism, Marx described how in a perfectly fair and free market in equilibrium, operating according to classical theory, when everything sells at its cost of production, the capitalist profits because the cost of producing labor (the cost of feeding and housing a worker + education + pension, etc.) is lower than the cost of producing a marketable commodity with that labor. In other words, what creates room for profit is the societal acceptance of a living standard for workers that is below what their productivity makes possible. Now that last sentence, which points out that the general level of wages and profits is the result of societal bargaining (a form of cold class warfare), seems basically true, even though Marx's original modeling of how this happens is outdated.

When Marx says this is just, he means that it happens without any special coercion or manipulation of the market, when everything including labor trades at its "fair" price. Of course he is being ironic and making fun of the idea of the "free market".

Moral of the story: If you want to understand Marxism, read Marxists, not Encyclopedia entries about Marxism.

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With all due respect evildoer, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is an excellent source book that I and all my colleages use all the time. You should visit the site and take a look at some of the entries in there and then pass judgement on it. Of course I have read Marx, but it would be far too longwinded to engage in an analysis of his writings here at TPM. SEP is appropiate reference for the purposes of this blog.

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Well, I made my judgment on the result. If you came up with the idea that Marx thought capitalist exploitation was just based on it, than something in the chain of reading was seriously screwed up.

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It is really quite simple. A materialist-- dialectical or otherweise--has a hard time squaring off with such concepts as "social justice" and even "right" or "wrong". That is basic philosophy 101. Hence Marx saw things as an inevitable process that had little to do with "value judgerments" per se. That is standard Marxist thinking.

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No, this is standard caricature of Marxist thinking by people who are afraid of Marx.

Yes, Marx had some lack of clarity on how to square the large historical process with human agency. Interesting question to which different thinkers gave and keep giving different answers. There is no such thing as philosophy without problems and contradictions. And Marx was no exception to that rule.

No, Marx never had any problem with concept such as justice and right or wrong. This is a caricature based on ignorance. The fact is, you quoted Marx to mean that he claimed capitalism involves no injustice. This is a quote out of context that reverses the meaning of what he actually wrote. And you keep trying to explain it, but there is nothing to explain since this is simply wrong. and if you read it somewhere, than the person of wrote that was either ignorant or was looking to mislead you.

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Didn't see Capitalism yet. But District 9 = good film!

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i liked district 9 also. could not help but see it as an analogy to gaza.

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MJ,

I saw it last night in Manhattan. And like your theater, we all burst into applause after FDR's Second Bill of Rights.

But more telling was the response before the applause: the audible gasps in the audience as he read. You could tell that everyone was thinking "Holy shit...we could have had that? It could have been, literally, within our rights to demand such things?"

This movie was incredibly radical. I posted this in another forum, but I'll repeat it here: it was more 1936 Catalonia than "liberal Democrat."

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That is so cool.
My theater in Bethesda was filled with elderly Jews and hip looking kids.
Unusual crowd. But they went nuts!

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