Rahm: Pressuring Israelis and Palestinians Is As Much For Us As For Them
President George W. Bush once explained his failure to advance the Israeli-Palestinian peace process with the excuse that, "We can't want peace more than the parties themselves." Dennis Ross, who tried and failed to achieve Israeli-Palestinian peace for several decades and under several Presidents, said the same thing.
And now White House Chief-of-Staff Rahm Emanuel seems to be picking up on the mantra.
In a wide-ranging interview with Charlie Rose on Wednesday night, Emanuel did not sound particularly upbeat about the possibilities of an Israeli-Palestinian breakthrough although he emphasized that the President intends to keep up the pressure.
But then he echoed Bush and Ross: "They [Israelis and Palestinians] live side by side. You can't want this more than they want it."
Fortunately, he's wrong. The United States can indeed want an agreement more than the parties do and can achieve it even if Israelis and Palestinians drag their feet. After all, the US has considerable leverage on both sides.
Remember what Jimmy Carter did at Camp David. He clearly wanted an agreement more than Sadat and Begin, who kept trying to escape the summit. But Carter persisted, achieved a deal and, for thirty years now, not a shot has been fired in anger by either side.
Carter's achievement has benefited Israelis and Egyptians (how many mothers and wives in both countries still have their sons and husbands thanks to Carter's achievement?) but, equally important - and more important for the United States - the end of the Israeli-Egyptian conflict enabled the United States to achieve normalization of diplomatic, cultural and trade relations with the most powerful Arab state without, in any way, alienating Israel. United States does not traditionally broker peace deals out of love for the disputants but because it is in our own interests to do so.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has harmed US interests in the Middle East for decades. I'm not just talking about the oil and, in fact, I'm not just talking about the Middle East.
The Muslim world - a disparate grouping of nations and peoples - is united on only one issue: the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Our role in the conflict, viewed as utterly one-sided, has seriously damaged America's standing in every Muslim country in the world. It also endangers America's interests - starting with US military personnel but extending to ordinary citizens - both in the Muslim world and, it's not hard to imagine, here at home.
So, in fact, we can indeed want Israeli-Palestinian peace more than the parties themselves. Achieving it is not so much a favor to them but an act of self-interest. And we have the leverage to achieve it.
All it takes is the will.
http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives/11275600.html
September 25, 2009 1:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do you realize how dumb your posts are?
You cite the Zionist-fanatic editor of the WaPo editorial page for the proposition that the Palestinians are the impediment to peace. Bias?
Notice that you never wonder why if this deal that Ohlmert alledgedly offered was so genuine that he didn't offer it publically at the time so the whole world would have seen how supposedly generous it was? Instead, every Israeli PM leaves office and claims--without any maps or documents---that he offered the Palestinians the moon, yet they demanded the stars.
And you don't get the con, do you?
It's sad, really. Did you invest with Bernie Madoff?
September 25, 2009 6:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Do you realize how dumb your posts are?"
GOOD QUESTION!
September 26, 2009 9:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, for being so dumb , Just to make clear, I gather that you support that proposal, but doubt that that Israel ever offered Palestinians such deal. Am I right?
The same question to MJ. You rant every day about the pressure Obama needs to apply to Israel. Can you outline your proposal to resolve the I/P conflict and how it's different with the Olmert proposal?
September 26, 2009 10:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Anna's regurgitated propaganda amounts to nothing more than one of the oldest and most tiresome stock Big Lies of the settler lobby. Any objective observer knows that the both Israelis AND Palestinians have for many years contributed mightily to torpedoing peace initiatives.
September 26, 2009 11:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, it's called the Saudi Plan (Arab League Plan).
September 28, 2009 12:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
He/she's not dumb, except in a very deep sense.
Anna's goal is not to convince you, whether A. knows it or not. Hiz goal is to waste your time. A's arguments cannot convince a stone to obey the law of gravitation. It can however convince you that you achieve something by refuting it.
You don't. Really. It's like watching TV.
Do something better. Get people you know to demand the release of Mohammad Othman, arrested because he is a successful and dedicated non-violent organizer against the apartheid wall and for BDS:
http://www.waronwant.org/campaigns/fighting-occupation-in-palestine/extra/action/16671-act-now-to-free-mohammad-othman-
September 26, 2009 7:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Third parties often can and do want peace more than the warring parties. So what?
The USA has enthusiastically supported one side in this war more than the other. We send money to both sides, but we sell arms only to one side. We oppose nuclear weapons development by one side but wink at it on the other side. One side is very influential in our domestic politics, but not the other side. Furthermore, we've used Israel to advance our own, often misguided, foreign policy agendas against other countries in the middle east.
Surprise! The rest of the world notices!
The decades we've obsessed about this, the blood and treasure we've spent. We've given it a really good try. Not everything one tries, succeeds. Learn from it. Be ready to assist, even-handedly, when asked. Meanwhile, move on to matters we can do something about.
When they want peace more than we do, it will happen.
September 25, 2009 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Haaretz has extensive quotes from the Charlie Rose interview and includes Rahm's zionist agitprop bullshit:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1116937.html
September 25, 2009 3:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Right on, brother. Since Hamas and Hezbollah are not invited to the talks, that's like blaming Hugo Chavez for the subprime mess.
September 25, 2009 6:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
myth.
I'm a sister w/ a potty mouth, attitude and an interest in thingies not generally associated with girls. People, including ArmchairG. not that long ago, have confused my gender since I started to opine online nearly a decade ago. For some reason, it continues to amuse me that what I thot was a feminine nic still isn't indicative enough. ;~{)
Rahm was repeating a very familiar line of cant popular within some circles. What worries me is the prospect that he and his closest administration associates believe it.
September 26, 2009 1:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Lally, are you the daughter of the late great Katharine Graham?
September 26, 2009 9:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
My mother says no and I have no other option but to believe her.
September 27, 2009 12:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Trust, but verify."
1) Are you in your mid-sixties?
2) Do you display involuntary journalistic tendencies?
3) Do you "summer" in Lausanne?
September 27, 2009 12:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
There's a much simpler approach than pointlessly trying to convince these chronic foes we want peace as much as they do: Bail on the situation altogether. Fact is, I don't want peace as much as either Israelis or Palestinians; I don't give a damn. Fortunately for us, this endless agony is ocurring in a part of the Mideast without oil. So... what is our interest... really? Let the EU take charge of this dead-end nonsense. Or... China. Who cares? We can't play peacemaker everywhere. I know I'm not the only American for whom Israel holds no importantance. Once we junk our joined-at-the-hip partnership with it, our relationship with Islam can be repaired. That's the important thing - not playing favorites in this backwater deathmatch.
September 25, 2009 4:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
"I know I'm not the only American for whom Israel holds no importantance."
Second.
September 25, 2009 6:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Okay, San Fernando, but the US Congress IS joined-at-the-hip to whatever the US reps and paranoid dupes of the West Bank settlers tell it do, and has been for decades. Unless you are part of an effort to mount one of the biggest domestic political upsets in modern US history, you too -through your representatives on Capitol Hill- are effectively joined-to-the-hip with the Settler side of the 'backwater deathmatch'. If you want to bail, fine, and I'd be right in there with you, but if you want us to believe that you really are bailing, show us the bailing bucket.
September 26, 2009 11:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Let me get this straight: Netanyahu practically orders Pelosi and unnamed Senators (in a “secret” meeting) to "act now" against Iran (“If not now then when?”) yet he has the temerity to attend a meeting with Obama and Abbas in which he agrees to nothing more than more talks about talks?
The United States is not threatened by Iran, Israel seems to think it is. It is arguable that the United States is threatened by a continuation of settlement expansion and a refusal to negotiate by Netanyahu, yet we are told by Netanyahu that we must ignore that and act against Iran for them immediately? (Obama-Brown_Sarkozi dutiful pronounce themselves shocked to learn that the Iranians are enriching uranium).
My advice to Obama at this point is to tell Bibi to call him when he is ready to negotiate seriously with the Palestinians and we will take his hysterics about Iran more seriously in return.
An alternative take is that Obama has been on the same page with Bibi all along.
September 26, 2009 11:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let me get this straight: Netanyahu practically orders Pelosi and unnamed Senators (in a “secret” meeting) to "act now" against Iran (“If not now then when?”)
I've read that he called them.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1253820683382
Inouye is one of the most popular US senators among Israelis who liason with congress:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/9051
The Hon Inouye deserves some scrutiny as to why he is so beloved by the Israeli diplomatic/consular corps and JINSA.
September 27, 2009 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Inouye told Ken Burns that his feelings stemmed from his WWII experiences in Germany. Whatever. You would think that he be a broad enough person to appreciate the Palestinian experience as well. But he hasn't. So he's just another dinosaur hack occupying Congress. This is why Congress is such a joke.
September 28, 2009 12:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
MJ
I agree with you that the US has the leverage but if Rahm isn't willing to try to use it, I have no idea what the next step would be. It's hard to beleive Rahm's comments were not weighed before he made them. I want to be hopeful on this, but based on Rahm's comment, I am not seeing a way forward. I take Curt's point, but if we acceot Rahm at face value, then that is all AIPAC needs. You advised yesterday to the effect don't waste time on things that are not politically feasible. But if Rahm and AIPAC are essentilly on the same page, isn't that end of story, politically speaking? Help me out here.
September 25, 2009 5:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Falling out of love with Obama takes the usual steps: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance.
MJ is still barely in phase I.
September 25, 2009 6:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
evil,
I'm at step 2.
September 26, 2009 12:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
But Israel likes the current situation just fine and has passed along its marching orders to White House Chief-of-Staff Rahm Emanuel, who served with the Israeli army during the time of the Gulf War.
Just another Israeli agent?
September 25, 2009 5:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
when i saw the charlie rose interview what i heard was the outline of what the obama administration will say when this so called 'peace process' fails. what i heard is that they are already have an exit scenario.
1. hillary clinton and obama will use a string of mildly negative comments to show that they are disappointed with both sides. this will be followed by a string of increasingly severe adjectives to show that this time they really, really mean it. you might even see a frown or two. and by the way peace is really, really hard.
2. and you'll know that they have thrown in the towel when obama announces "both people are living side by side. the usa can't want peace more than the israeli and palestinians do. we can't force peace on them. and, by the way, it's all the fault of hamas, iran, and hizbulla."
it's all about jerusalem and it's symbolic-fantasy significance for the seculars and the third temple fantasy for the religious wackos. without all of jerusalem, israel won't feel complete. east and west jerusalem are like two testicles. if you only have one testicle you feel less of a man, less of a country. there is no way israel will give up all of jerusalem, not for the usa, not for the arabs, not for anyone.
i read that in israel that people don't like to be seen as being a sucker. the definition of a sucker is "chump: a person who is gullible and easy to take advantage of". do you think bibi is seeing himself as a sucker right now? whose the sucker? the biggest one is abbas followed by obama.
BDS
September 25, 2009 7:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
"i read that in israel that people don't like to be seen as being a sucker. the definition of a sucker is "chump: a person who is gullible and easy to take advantage of"."
BP, you've hit on something that I have been thinking about for many years. I think both societies put a HUGE premium on haggling abilities and not being "taken". Maybe it's a byproduct of the geography and/or a long-nurtured victim mentality.
If only a solution could be formed in which both sides could walk away saying to their respective constituents, "Hey, I got one over on that guy!"
September 26, 2009 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Get a life, MJ. You post EVERY DAY?!? Really? It gets old, doesn't it?
September 25, 2009 10:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe the wisest thing yet said in response to an MJ post.
September 26, 2009 8:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is his work. Do you work every day?
September 26, 2009 10:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
I do. I didn't realize he was employed by TalkingPointsMemo.
If not employed by TPM, then I'd prefer he do his job elsewhere.
September 26, 2009 10:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
He is being paid for each click.
September 26, 2009 6:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Excellent assessment, MJ. I would, however, take it one step further. If there is to be a prayer of a hope of success here, then -absent some incredible miracle- the "will" that you talk about
in your final line has absolutely GOT to include the US President and other key figures saying forcefully and repeatedly, if not directly, that
(1) there are fanatically dedicated enemies of peace here
(2) that those dedicated enemies include well-entrenched minorities of BOTH Israelis and Palestinians.
(3) that is well-past HIGH time for intelligent American patriots to cease denying the decades-long outrageous and ANTI-American behavior of the US Congress in aligning itself (in extremely nauseating predictability) with the ISRAELI wing of the Peace Enemies.
And: backing up such forceful statements with ACTION. There has to be accountability and consequences for Congress members who consistently and egregiously betray America.
September 26, 2009 11:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
What else do you want from Israel?
September 26, 2009 11:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
What I want from Israel is not remotely the issue here. But, I will say that for a good 15 years now, 90% of the world including me has very much wanted to see Israel, now that the Cold War is over and Jordan and Egypt are at peace with it, ship its settlers in the now obsolete West Bank buffer zone back home to Israel where they belong. This would be in the interest of everyone including all Israelis, except the most fanatical nutcases in the settlements. Such repatriation will most probably happen some day regardless, and Israel will get a better deal out of it by doing it as soon as possible and regardless of what the Palestinians do or don't do in response.
September 26, 2009 11:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
The huge majority of so called settlers lives just a couple miles outside so called green line. There are not going to be moved, there is no reason for them to move. Olmert offered to exchanges that few square miles of land for another land. What's your problem with his proposal?
September 26, 2009 11:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Where is Olmert? In jail yet? In any case, he is not in the government, so who cares about his obsolete supposed "proposal"?
Meanwhile, in the real world, no one in America is talking about immediately moving those Israeli settlers, which MAY be sizable MINORITY of the total, who live but a "couple of miles" outside Israel's border. Obama has not even been talking about removing the more remote "outposts" of Israeli terrorist-settlers which NEVER, not even during the Cold War, had any legitimate purpose, and were nothing but a political sop to the paranoid minority in Israel that craves eternal conflict (BECAUSE those settlements were TAILOR MADE for rendering a viable Palestinian state impossible). The only issue on the table so far has been a temporary cessation of EXPANSION of buildings and infrastructure for never-satiated greedy settlers. No removals at all (yet).
I suggest you face reality, Anna: the propaganda sheets you quote unthinkingly from serve the interests of those who are bound and determined to prevent a Palestinian state at all costs. What is so bad about that? Why should the Palestinians not simply all move to Jordan? Because the likelihood of that ever happening is roughly as great as the chance that all Israelis would ever move back to Warsaw or Vilna over to Brooklyn.
Better to stay in the real world. The real world is Netanyahu, the lunatic fringe in Israel that he appeases as part of his coalition, the largely incoherent and ineffective mainstream Palestinian leadership, and the terrorist-ridden Hamas they have trouble competing with, Obama, the US Congress, and the civilized world that is very tired of barbaric Israelis and Arabs consuming so much of its time and energy. Not a mythical proposal of a failed former Israeli PM.
September 26, 2009 12:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let me ask you again, Do you like that proposal?
Do you want Netanyahu to make such proposal?
Do you think Palestinians will accept such proposal? If not, what do you suggest, should be the next step?
September 26, 2009 1:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
As a "next step" for you, Anna (assuming you are an Israeli, or if not can very easily imagine being one):
Imagine how you might feel if a significant component of the entire foreign policy of Israel were, for very bizarre and unhealthy political reasons, oriented towards unending knee-jerk support for a small fanatical minority of (to pick a more or less random example) Barbados. Further suppose that the small fanatical minority of Barbadans in question were hell-bent on taking over neighboring Grenada, which they consider to be promised to them by God, and to do so by unscrupulously exploiting the fears of a larger diaspora of people with ancient ties to the main Barbadian religion, many of them living in Israel. Would you give the time of day to a Barbadian who would not stop pestering you concerning some BS "proposal" for pretending to give back part to Grenada a portion of the land stolen by those Barbadian fanatics?
September 26, 2009 7:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let me ask you, Do you like the following proposal?
Do you want Netanyahu to make such proposal?
Do you think Palestinians should accept such proposal? Do you think Palestinians will accept such proposal?
September 26, 2009 8:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Watch this video. It's a perfect introduction to to the light than emanates from "united" Jerusalem unto the nations.
September 26, 2009 12:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rahm is an Israeli and served in the IDF.
He was the very first cabinet member appointed by the new president, an appointment made with indecent haste under pressure from The Lobby.
It was, with hindsight, the extraordinary price Obama had to pay to The Lobby - no less a position than Chief of Staff. An Israeli COS yet in an American government!
And that tells us all. A Lobby man at the heart of government. That's democracy? That's a joke!
How abouts we start again and democratically elect a government properly representative of the people - the real people of America.
A government of the people, by the people and for the people.
September 26, 2009 1:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jews are here, Jews are there, Jews are everywhere.
September 26, 2009 2:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
AnnaA.
A few updated instructions for the hasbara cadres.
1.The use of the term "settlers" is no longer operative. From now on, please try to substitute "pioneers" when referencing that population.
(That way, ignorant Americans can more easily identify and associate IDF guarded tile-roof villas & swimming pools with the legendary & solitary sod-built hovels of the vast American prairies. Not to mention the more obvious Conestogas="caravans" tie-in.)
2. In order to more effectively convey your message, take note that the alternative spelling:
"Joos are here, Joos are there, Joos are everywhere" has more impact than your version.
You're welcome.
September 26, 2009 3:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let me ask you, Do you the Olmert proposal?
Do you want Netanyahu to make such proposal?
Do you think Palestinians will accept such proposal? If not, what do you suggest, should be the next step?
September 26, 2009 4:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
What's your sign?
September 27, 2009 12:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
CORRECTION: In order to achieve the proper effect and deliver maximum impact you are supposed to spell it "Joos".
So predictable.
September 28, 2009 5:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
A good step would be for legislation to be brought in that would make it illegal for any lobby group to act primarily for the benefit of a foreign power as opposed to the benefit of American society as a whole in the affirmation that to so act is detrimental to the basic principles of the democratic process of the United States and its elected government that has been adopted by majority vote for the good of the nation and not for the benefit of the minority interest of any particular group.
September 26, 2009 6:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Jewish lobby In The Supreme Court will block such legislation.
September 26, 2009 6:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wrong of course. The Supreme Court, if it remains half sane, will uphold the 1st Amendment rights of all Americans, including settler-hating Jews whom the Settler-liars like to call self-hating. The right to free speech and a free press extends to fascists, cultists, and West Bank settler dupes alike. Ultimately there is no constitutional means by which American voters can be prohibited from being ignorant suckers. Freedom of speech and expression can, however, also be used to educate the ignorant.
September 26, 2009 7:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
sibel edmons, a former fbi translator who was gagged from speaking by the us goverment, has started to speak out on what was going on behind the curtain when she worked for the fbi as a turkish translator.
an extensive interview of her by phil geraldi, formerly in the cia, was published by the american conservative magazine. it is available by subscription only. you will understand how israel and turkey are such buds and the extent and depth of manipulation of the usa by foreign powers.
the bradblog has a summary of her revelations
September 26, 2009 7:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, the Sibel Edmonds interview can be viewed online here:
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2009/nov/01/00006/
No subscription required. I presume this is the entire interview since there's no statement to the contrary.
September 26, 2009 7:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
her is also a radio interview of phil geraldi about edmons in the scott horton radio show
http://antiwar.com/radio/2009/09/22/philip-giraldi-joe-lauria/
September 26, 2009 8:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
September 26, 2009 7:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can't too commit libel properly.
Serious question. You post here when it is 5AM in Nizhny Novgorod. Do you spend your life responding to TPM posters?
September 27, 2009 2:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tovarich M.J. Rosenberg,
Serious question.
Do you like the following proposal?
- the principle of a " limited right of return" to Israel for Palestinian refugees to resettlment thousands of Palestinians in Israel as the final resolution of the refugees problem.
- A Palestinian state on 97 percent of the West Bank.
- The road between WB and Gaza.
Do you want Netanyahu to make such proposal?
Do you think Palestinians should accept such proposal? Do you think Palestinians will accept such proposal?
September 27, 2009 3:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
The State of Israel (without the '67 territories) constitutes 78% of historic Palestine.
The West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem constitutes 22%.
The Palestinians have repeatedly agreed to accept a deal whereby Israel keeps its 78%. And they get a state in the other 22%.
Sounds pretty generous to me. After all, the Pals before 1948 had 100%. Now they will settle for 22.
September 28, 2009 8:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
And probably for less than that---if they can get a real state with control over its own borders, resources, and foreign affairs. Or as Anna would say, "unreasonable demands." (Basically, the opposite of everything Nutty Yahoo said at his speech at Bar Ilan.)
September 28, 2009 12:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, you forgot about another small issues, so called refugee problem, Jews who were kicked out from Arab counties and Arabs who left or were kicked out from Israel. How do you suggest this issue should be resolved?
September 28, 2009 9:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Geneva Initiative of 2003 worked out a compromise on refugees and right of return. A combination of limited return with other forms of compensation. A tough issue, but not a deal killer. The deal killers are people who will lie cheat and steal until their dying day to prevent ANY deal, and the cowardly politicians who kowtow to such fanatics.
September 30, 2009 1:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, I mean I can too commit libel properly. But I sure didn't libel Goldberg who himself wrote in his book about being set upon my crazed antisemitic grade school kids.
September 27, 2009 2:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
The use of the term "libel" in the legal sense is absurd on the face of it. I tend to think what is unsaid-but-implied is that you have committed blood libel. Goldberg is too much the sophisticate to use terminology associated with fanatics and extremists.
September 27, 2009 4:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
For this and many other reasons (healthcare poition, finance position, to name a couple of the most important), this guy Rahm needs to GO AWAY. He represents all those of us who voted for and contributed to Obama abhor. Well, maybe not all. I admit, some voted against Mc and Pa, more than for O.
September 27, 2009 3:56 PM | Reply | Permalink