Enough Lamentation
I went to MoveOn's candlelight vigil at the corner of Central Park across from Columbus Circle in New York City last evening. Possibly there were 400 people at the peak, some holding candles. Most, as you'd expect, were middle-aged or older, but there was a sprinkling of the younger, including a man who had open-heart surgery at 26. Citizens went to the microphone, told their horror stories,some quite gripping, of medical woe, of insurance refusal, and so on. Some read snippets from other people's horror stories.
A perfectly sweet day for a rally, personal, nothing strident or threatening. Personal stories. Americans love personal stories.
I think the tone was a mistake. There was more bemoaning than indignation, more personal testimony than resolve to fight for a good (not perfect) bill. The pageant of human suffering has the capacity to move people, but not to fire them up, not to convince them to turn out again, not to make demands of their recalcitrant legislators. To me, the parade of victimhood chronicles said of the reformers: we're losers. It wasn't just too bland for New York. It whimpered.
An old friend I ran into, and then a more recent acquaintance, confirmed my feeling that the tone was far too much Me-Me-Me, I Suffer, not nearly enough We Have a Right. My friend felt the same. We've been running into each other at demonstrations since we were 20 years old together. The first one was to integrate an amusement park outside Baltimore, I hate to say how many years ago. That one exuded confidence--not just moral rectitude. The spirit was, An injury to one is an injury to all. Last night's was more I am injured and woeful. It did not have the sound of victory.
If MoveOn thought to emphasize small-scale stories and candlelight across the country in order to look and sound inoffensive in regions where know-nothing goons go to their rallies packing, it succeeded. But I doubt this is the spirit that will convince Blue Dogs they'd better win this one for Obama if for no other reason than that if the Democrats are mortally wounded by failure, shades of 1994, this spells disaster for the party and the rest of any progressive agenda.
Please do not tell me I lack compassion. Don't get me started on my own medical chronicles. After 60 years of successful crackpot attacks on "socialized medicine," an outraged citizenry needs to speak up as a citizenry, not as a ward.





















I won't tell you that you lack sympathy. Promised. I agree with you. But a question. What was the racial makeup? It seems to me we cannot have a discussion of strategy wearing "colorblind" glasses. Healthcare is also a race issue. Although everybody suffers, not everybody suffers in the same way or at the same level.
A nurse in a NYC hospital described to me how she timed the amount of time doctors at her hospital stood near the bed of a white patient compared to a black patient. I don't remember if she said it was 1:9 or 1:20. But you get the picture. She often received orders to deny care or provide it based on race.
An outraged citizenry has difficulties being effective unless it recognizes the internal divisions and inequalities within it. A struggle for helathcare won't be effective and won't stand up to the insurance companies if it is led by and appeals to only the upper crust of the system's victims.
September 3, 2009 9:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
More than 90% white, I'd estimate. Strikingly high percentage even for Manhattan, let alone the rest of the city. I don't know if this turnout matches MoveOn's membership, but wouldn't be surprised. I had for some reason assumed union sponsorship too--in which case the legions of SIEU etc. members were absent.
September 3, 2009 9:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Heeeeeeey....
September 3, 2009 12:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
I contacted both DFA and moveon to express my feelings about the use of the word 'vigil', really pathetic framing. Democrats seem to fail consistently through poor framing and weak messages, it is highly frustrating.
September 3, 2009 9:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's because Democrats think for themselves, and aren't so willing to take their talking points from a single person, like the Republicans have always been willing to do, especially from the likes of Rove and Rush.
In terms of character, it is a good thing Democrats think for themselves, but in terms of politics, it just makes us look weaker than the lemmings and their leaders.
We are trading control for character. Personally, it makes me proud to be a Democrat. Politically, I wince every time the lemmings get media coverage.
There is no real solution, unless Democrats are willing to become as pliant and prejudiced as the lower ranks of the republican party.
September 3, 2009 12:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
It would be neither pliant nor prejudiced for Democrats and rally speakers to emphasize a few key points:
• universality;
• portability;
• a public option;
• in sum, health care as a right.
September 3, 2009 12:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I neglected to add
•affordability.
September 3, 2009 12:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
And right now! No waiting 5 years.
September 3, 2009 6:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
In sum, health care as a right.
I'm a strong supporter of equity in health care, and would support strongly egalitarian, even radically egalitarian, restructuring of our economy in many sectors, not just the health care sector. I would prefer a single payer plan, but accept that the kinds of reforms that are being proposed right now, including a robust public option, are the best we can get at the moment.
But when I hear people say that health care is a "right", it leaves me cold. I don't even know that I understand what they mean, actually. But to the extent that I understand it, it turns me off.
It sounds like the sort of ivory tower talk that comes from people who don't understand where any of the economic goods in our world actually come from, how anything in our world is produced, and what are the costs and pains involved in producing it. It brings to mind all the old stereotypes of spoiled "me generation" liberals demanding the good things provided by the work of others as their "right". Do I have a "right" to the labor of the nurse changing bedpans, the EMT racing to an emergency, the second shift warehouse worker shipping medical supplies, the clerical worker processing claims paperwork or the scientist conducting medical experiments?
Modern health care treatments and technologies are produced, at great cost, from untold human labor. These treatments and technologies are not a natural resource or a natural human endowment. It's hard to see how anyone could think they have a right to them.
But we can sensibly think our society would be stronger, more prosperous and happier on the whole if it were much more egalitarian, and we can apply those principles to health care as well as other areas. Improving the portability and reliability of health care insurance will be great for our economy in a number of ways. And I'm convinced that we could all, as a society, be getting much better health care for less money if we had a more efficient system, and that these efficiencies can be better achieved with the strong pressure from a greater government presence in the market.
But "rights"? To health care? Leave me out of that.
September 4, 2009 12:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
What if simple healthcare, say, treatment for an infected tooth, is necessary for an otherwise healthy 12 year old to reach their 13th birthday?
Is his only "right" to die in agony?
Can you tell me why he has a right to not get beaten to death by an overzealous security guard (and I think you'll agree this is the case, as does our legal system), but no right to not die for lack of an antibiotic?
It's certainly a gray area in many respects, but I don't think it justifies a race to the bottom, as you propose.
Also.
Boner pills.
Penile enlargement.
Hair regrowth treatment.
Developed at great cost and sacrifice.
Malaria vaccine.
Not so much.
I've not even gotten into the whole right-to-life wicket, as it's pretty sticky.
September 4, 2009 8:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's certainly a gray area in many respects, but I don't think it justifies a race to the bottom, as you propose.
I don't understand what you mean by that.
It makes sense to argue about whether he has a right to as much health care as anybody else in the same medical predicament. But I don't see how it could be plausible to claim that he has a right to "health care" per se.
No matter how much we progress there are going to be levels of treatment that are so costly that we simply cannot, as a society, make them available to everyone.
September 4, 2009 9:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'll try to be clearer on what I mean - it's not as clear re-reading it as I thought it was when I hit Submit.
If we assert that there is no right, only ability to pay, the race to the bottom will exhibit itself as providers seek to offer those treatments that afford the greatest profit. "Bottom" in this case meaning the lowest level of treatment possible at a cost they can they can offer to maximize demand and profits.
It's true that some treatments (regardless of their effectiveness treating the conditions they're intended to) will be prohibitively expensive to provide universally.
Fortunately - that will not be necessary. The most difficult to treat conditions are rare in the entire universe of health issues. The most common can be relatively inexpensive at the margin: strep throat, sinusitis, obesity.
Developing new antibiotics isn't cheap, but it's cheaper than inventing the MRI or gamma knife, and the cost per treatment is very low in relative terms.
Does that make it clearer? I've unfortunately lost some of the original train of thought, so this may be a fruitless effort.
If you don't think a right to healthcare is viable - how about a right to not die of something efficiently curable?
September 4, 2009 12:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
You've got me wrong, kenga. I favor health care that is universal and strongly egalitarian. I'd prefer single payer.
I'm just not sympathetic to the argument that the reason we should have such a system is that people have some kind of a right to health care.
September 4, 2009 1:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd like to add, insofar as malaria vaccine is concerned, it is going to become increasingly relevant to US residents as climatic zones shift due to global warming.
Eastern equine encephalitis and West Nile virus will be fondly remembered as being manageable.
Those in the most southerly areas will be the first and worst affected.
And insofar as a vaccine is concerned, it will be due more to the charitable efforts of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and those of other wealthy donors and organizations than to any economic efficiency. The invisible hand does a pretty shitty job of planning for the foreseeable future. (Cf. climate change)
An argument could be made that by encouraging development of a vaccine whose utility is presently only to the poorest of the human family, we are simply worsening the coming impacts of climate change by allowing more people to survive to reproduce. Whose offspring will suffer most.
That's pretty fucking cold-blooded, though, so you won't find me making it or supporting it.
September 4, 2009 10:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
"It sounds like the sort of ivory tower talk that comes from people who don't understand where any of the economic goods in our world actually come from, how anything in our world is produced, and what are the costs and pains involved in producing it."
That's right. None of these things come from humans.
So tell us: from where do these things come? A cornucopia, perhaps?
How it is that any result of human endeavour (including that set of things resulting from basic scientific research; you know, that empirical, evidence-based thingum...a set of things extensively subsidized by *other* results of human endeavour: EG...medical research) is not a human endowment is beyond me.
But then, I'm not interested in niggardly, stunted definitions of rights screeched into the commons by harpies resident in the eaves some other academic faction's ivied tower: the one of amateur jurisprudence. I do wish for an effective bug spray.
People like DanK boil it down to variations on one thing: No.
These variations take forms like "You can't have that" or "That's not possible, because we have this well-developed, and extensively documented, (philosophy | theory of jurisprudence | macro-economic policy) that logically rebuts your human needs" or "you really shouldn't hurt the protected class of privileged elites gaming the system to redistribute wealth from those who make it toward that tiny center of capable managers" or "We have an apple cart, stacked just so, and if you want us to sell you apples from the orchard, you'd better not upset the cart" or even: "We have guns" and blah blah blah blah blah.
And BTW: if the choice to reduce to its base state the definition of a right is NOT something that comes from a state of mind disconnected from the practical concerns of everyday life, I'll eat my shorts.
September 4, 2009 11:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
People like DanK boil it down to variations on one thing: No.
What the hell are you talking about? I prefer a single payer health plan with universal access and egalitarian care. Try reading before submitting.
September 4, 2009 1:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
To expand: Dems need to drop the policy-speak, as well. Use narrative, and get it in people's faces. Be aggressive with a taut, "sticky" message. Leave the details to the conference committees, they don't belong in the public arena - no one outside DC cares about things like that. They want to know that something is going to work, and they want to hear it in terms that resonate with them.
Emotions trump reason every time out. Use it or be abused by it.
September 3, 2009 10:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
The pathetic "vigils" are characteristic of what cringing, reactionary liberals do under the influence of pimp-consultants and campaign-finance mercenaries. These and the usual party suttlers and camp-followers from both parties are now staging and financing (a) the predictable GOP counter-attack in the style of their national 1994 mid-term campaign and (b) the habitual "all politics is local" rout of only marginally less corrupt and slightly more disciplined Democratic office-squatters.
It's August! This is what they do.
So, formulaic rituals in support of empty-suit "lifestyle" politicians is what politicos do with their little phone-lists and three-ring binders of proprietary political methodism, absent strong or, in the case of Democrats, even real parties.
Aux armes, citoyens,
Formez vos bataillons!
Not a chance!
The gun-toting right-wing is scary, sure, but the candle-wielding soft-center is just a ridiculous back-drop for them and the self-perpetuating Democratic establishment of bi-partisan concession-tenders who still do not understand they are not in a coalition of Moderate Republicans and Southern Democrats any more.
September 3, 2009 11:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh Great! Another circular firing squad. Feels real good until the last trigger points at you. Democracy for America is now the enemy. Let's kick Jim Dean and Dr. Howard out. MoveOn.org is now the enemy: shame on them for being so pathetic. Who on the face of this earth is pure enough, holy enough, angry enough, righteous enough, not to mention self-righteous enough, to satisfy you? Yourself? Probably.
I rather knew this is the direction this thread would soon take. Pardon me while I go make a contribution to Democracy for America, and another to MoveOn, either of which has done more for the good cause than you will ever do. Do I sound disgusted. I hope so.
If anyone else feels the same. Here are links to thank them for doing something
http://moveon.org/
http://www.democracyforamerica.com/
September 3, 2009 11:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
I would not mind the last trigger (or even barrel) pointing at me.
September 3, 2009 12:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
If the trigger is, so is the barrel--I'd mind it if the gun was in the hand of someone who claimed to want the same thing I do, but then I'm touchy about that sort of thing.
September 3, 2009 1:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
All my triggers point downwards at about 45 degrees - plus, in a circular firing squad, if the last barrel points at you, it is your own ;)
September 3, 2009 1:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guess then the crucial thing the geometry of height and distance. I either get shot in the toe, the knee, or the unmentionables. If I was interested in joining a circular firing squad, I'd aim at the person to my right (or my left, machts nicht) and the person to my left (or my right, machts nicht) would aim at me. We could, of course, aim directly across, but that would be terribly nontraditional. :-)
September 3, 2009 6:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'll settle for Jeremiah Wright.
September 3, 2009 1:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sure he's working just as hard as he can to pass health care legislation. I just haven't seen him do it.
September 3, 2009 6:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fine, you keep playing football with Lucy. But I won't play Charlie Brown anymore. Todd is right although a vigil was appropriate for the death of democracy.
September 3, 2009 6:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly, JRBehrman. You faithfully picked up Todd's point and amplified it.
It reminded me of a candlelight vigil I participated one evening back in December, 2002 with a hundred of us protesting the coming war. After some comments we formed up with our candles in a peace symbol under the flight path of a nearby airport. How pathetic it was! But what else could we do, having been abandoned by our "representatives", our elected "public servants."
And so in the current issues of war and health care. Lack of proper representation and a weak president who seems only too willing (on both war and health care) to cave in to corporate interests when his party is in complete, total control of the government.
To arms, though? I'm right behind you.
September 3, 2009 12:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
We are at a real crossroads here. 2/3 of Americans want some sort of single payer system so 'public option' is already a compromise!
Even so, it looks like corporate interest is set to overcome even that compromise. The carrot(campaign contributions) and the sticks(contributions for your next opponent and smear ads in your district) seem to far outweigh quaint ideas like 'will of the people' or 'the right thing to do'.
On every major policy there will be a lobbyist-enacted campaign vs. the will of the people. If we lose on this one we'll lose on the rest.
The system is broken. We face a future of slavery.
September 3, 2009 12:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
People have to determine for themselves whether they think these kinds of efforts are effective. But here is what people need to ask themselves: Have they internalized weakness and defeat? Do they engage in the kinds of political discourse and demonstrations they do because they sincerely feel it is politically effective? Of do they do it instead because they have grown so accustomed to being sufferers that they now enjoy it, or are at least most comfortable with that role, and would prefer to remain lamenting victims rather than risk becoming conquering heroes?
Are you a "progressive" if you are not really achieving progress, and are instead holding ritual lamentations over the fact that your vision of the good is not realized in the world?
The philosopher David Hume described the phenomenon of superstition like this:
The mind of man is subject to certain unaccountable terrors and apprehensions, proceeding either from the unhappy situation of private or public affairs, from ill health, from a gloomy and melancholy disposition, or from the concurrence of all these circumstances. In such a state of mind, infinite unknown evils are dreaded from unknown agents; and where real objects of terror are wanting, the soul, active to its own prejudice, and fostering its predominant inclination, finds imaginary ones, to whose power and malevolence it sets no limits. As these enemies are entirely invisible and unknown, the methods taken to appease them are equally unaccountable, and consist in ceremonies, observances, mortifications, sacrifices, presents, or in any practice, however absurd or frivolous, which either folly or knavery recommends to a blind and terrified credulity. Weakness, fear, melancholy, together with ignorance, are, therefore, the true sources of SUPERSTITION.
If the society in which you are supposed to be an equal self-governing citizen, a citizen upon who your fellow-citizens are depending to help in the work of governing, is recognizably deficient in the way it is currently organized and governed, and you respond only with candles and vigils, how exactly are you any different from the cowering ancient subject who responded to collapsing levees and buildings, following drenching rains or earthquakes, with dances and prayers and sacrifices for the unseen gods?
September 3, 2009 1:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd say you're a lot different, but that's my opinion. You're out there, trying to do something. You probably kicked in a few bucks as well. It takes energy, it takes time, it takes away the cloak of anonymity. Back in the bad old days of the Bush administration we used to mock the 101st fighting keyboarders--the bloggers of the right who simply couldn't get enough blood and gore out of other persons' bodies to satisfy themselves.
So if you don't want to light a candle, don't light a candle. If you don't want to go to a vigil, don't go to a vigil. If you want to storm the Bastille, I'll provide you a map. But if what you want to do is sit safely on the sidelnes quoting David Hume and calling the folks of Move On and Democracy for America Superstitious, you'll do it alone.
September 3, 2009 9:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
C'mon amike. I'm asking a serious question. You say "you're out there, trying to do something." Do the question is just this: What does a candlelight vigil do?
September 3, 2009 11:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I may have been a little harsh, but I get furious when good people and good organizations get raked over the coals. So let me try to answer your question as briefly as I can.
Vigils provide a visible face and public presence for people who support the health care cause. Or any other cause for that matter. They've been part of the civil rights (health care is a civil right) arsenal for more than forty years. The Martin Luther King Center lists them as one of the tactics for non-violent protest.
They are not lamentations, contra what Todd Gitlin said. They are effective when the media determines to cover them. I've spent roughly a half hour trying to determine if any New York media covered the event which Gitlin attended. It seems not. Too unsophisticated for the New York Press? Maybe. Or maybe the media alert didn't get spread well. New York is the most parochial place I've ever visited.
This was only one of three hundred plus vigils around the country. Maybe it doesn't count in New York--but ninety ninety turned out for the rally in Fargo--a New York Crowd of equivalent size would have numbered over 100,000. The event was televised and reported in the local newspapers.
The events drew publicity through counter protest, and these made at least some of the wire services. The National Inflation Association was furious. This from Reuters concerning a vigil in Fort Lee, NJ:
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS231913+03-Sep-2009+PRN20090903
250 turned out in Charlotte I could go on an one, but perhaps the best thing is to link to my Google News Search. http://news.google.com/news/search?um=1&ned=us&hl=en&as_scoring=r&as_maxm=9&q=%22Candlelight+vigil%22+%22health+OR+care%22&as_qdr=m&as_drrb=q&as_mind=5&as_minm=8&cf=all&as_maxd=4&start=1
One thing this did for the people in Fargo, or Charlotte, or Stroudsburg was to show them they weren't alone. That's important.
Finally, this isn't all that MoveOn or Democracy for America do. Locals organize these things...maybe they're not media savvy or clever at organizing as they might be. But why discourage them or belittle what they do? Someplace else on TPM someone posted a video of the teabag express--far less than 400 people in that crowd as far as I could tell.
So there's my answer to your question as best as I can answer it. I might only add that at a number of these vigils the good guys were verbally harassed--so applaud their courage if nothing else.
September 4, 2009 11:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is a meme that is simply asserted and - unless you believe it already - is not convincing. What you are doing is the old trick of speaking LOUDER when someone doesn't understand your language. It doesn't help to make your point.
I'm sure glad you don't teach math. You don't understand the law of large numbers. 100 people in Fargo can't be scaled up because it's easy to imagine 100 people anywhere doing anything.
Media covers stories. Especially today's media. They want good video. 100,000 people in NYC would have been covered -- good video. You heard about the finger biting incident in the Los Angeles area -- good "video". Had there been the type of confrontation between this group and the teabaggers in NYC (the type that MoveOn chose to avoid), that would have been covered too. Indeed, in a city as small as Fargo, 100 people doing a vigil might have been the best local video that they had that day.
Instead, you dismiss the city of NYC as parochial.
Some view your peer group generation similarly.
I understand why MoveOn wanted to avoid trouble. I understand why older people are more concerned about healthcare than others.
All of this makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why you have an important issue you simply assert it should be my issue too. Many simply don't understand that the luxury of pitching something to me that I will need in the future isn't going to be compelling compared to the other, immediate, problems of today.
You may have been a professor too long and have forgotten that simply asserting things under professorial authority tends not to work outside the classroom. (That's not intended as a personal knock on you - my aunt teaches and she sometimes forgets as well.)
Again, I'm glad we have a forum to discuss these issues, but when confronted with obvious problems with approach, the reformers keep saying the same things over and over. Again, I point out that Medicare is going to be broken long before I need it and possibly after you are gone.
September 4, 2009 12:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
100,000 people in NYC would have been covered
I don't recall the protests in 2003 opposing the invasion of Iraq as receiving much coverage in the US. Per friends in attendance in NYC, it was substantially more than a meager tenth of a million. Nor do I recall much coverage of the millions of protesters in other cities around the world.
Newsworthy? Absolutely.
This does not mean coverage will happen.
September 4, 2009 1:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Are you claiming a media conspiracy?
At the time, the more "compelling" story was the build up to war.
If the protests got violent (viz. Chicago '68) or been as large/sustained as the Civil Rights marches in the 1950's they would have been covered.
At the time, of the protests, we also had WMD in the news, nuclear war scares, and a few other things.
Given that today the largest story on the news is healthcare (broadly defined), I think 100,000 might have been newsworthy. Unless Michael Jackson was being buried that day.
September 4, 2009 1:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Are you suggesting that the youth, or the majority of it, has a pressing issue?
Apathy, or at least a reasonable facsimile thereof, was quite prevalent while I was in college during the late 80s and 90s. Well - the imposition of a new and restrictive alcohol policy certainly turned out droves, but aside from that - the majority lacked all conviction while the Young Republicans were full of passionate intensity.
The job market in the early 90s for young people, (high school, college-age, and recent college grads) was nearly as bad at that time as it is now.
My recollection doesn't contain much in the way of youth getting involved in demonstrations then, either.
September 4, 2009 1:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Perhaps you've missed all the news stories describing the present time as the worst since the Great Depression?
The world isn't like it was 20 years ago. US Manufacturing lost it's dominance at home to the US Financial sector. The global economy has sent white collar jobs permanently away to India (as a result of the Internet).
We are now past peak oil meaning it will be near impossible to grow our economy again (which requires cheap energy sources).
Rather than the boomers healthily contributing to the social programs, they are now retiring and withdrawing from them.
Credit has dried up further seizing the economy.
Yes, the youth have significantly more important issues than healthcare. You are worried about the future. I'm worried about today.
September 4, 2009 2:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Medicare is going to be broken long before I need it and possibly after you are gone.
What do you mean by "broken"?
That the reserves will be depleted in 28 years*?
That after 2037 it will be 47 years* during which "tax income would be sufficient to pay about three fourths of scheduled benefits"?
We must have different definitions of "broken".
(* based on current rates and employment projections)
September 4, 2009 1:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do plan to hang around awhile.... Hope that doesn't disturb you too much. I gave you links...the maximum number I'm allowed, and if you're too lazy to follow them I can't really help that.
So until you refute the principal argument is the post and document that refutation with sources which are reliable and linked, you really aren't worth my time.
As for New Yorkers being Parochial--here's the definition.
Not only are they parochial, they're proud of it. Here's the documentation.
http://www.graphicsoptimization.com/blog/wp-includes/images/go_examples/2007_11/NewYorker1976-03-29cover.png
Of course the artist is of my generation, so what does he know?
September 4, 2009 1:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, professor. Yes, I looked at the links. No they didn't compel me to simply smack myself on the head and say "amike is right!"
You must be an inspiration in your classroom if that is how you debate.
The worst boomers are always the ones that get entirely prickly when you point out the generational thing. They've had it their way unconsciously for so long they are completely unable to have introspection on even the topic.
I wish you a long and happy life. I also wish you the wisdom to understand the world as it changes around you.
September 4, 2009 2:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
amike, Heartening news from Fargo, whose 90 matter a good deal more than 400 in NYC. My argument is simply: Different strokes for different states. I'm glad to see MoveOn will next organize demos at insurance company headquarters. Again, the tone and range should vary with local conditions. It's local organizers who have to tell the local temperature. Thus, for example, a candlelight vigil in NYC won't make local news, as you discovered. If Mutual of Omaha still exists, a quiet rally in Omaha ought to be a big story, and testimony from people denied insurance because of pre-existing conditions, etc., should count with undecideds and Blue Dogs.
September 5, 2009 8:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
Todd:
I couldn't agree more. We need to stand up to the goons and the insurance lackeys and say, "Enough already! Enough with the fear and the lies and the intimidation. Enough!" My question for you is, how do I help get this message out. I want to be involved but I have no idea what to do.
By the way, I am a former student of yours from UC Berkeley 1979 or 1980.
September 3, 2009 6:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
MoveOn is saying today that the next events will focus on insurance company headquarters. If ever there were targets for satire, denunciation, personal story, shaming rituals, and a whole range of other nonviolent actions, these buildings are those. See you there.
September 5, 2009 9:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
First, full disclosure: I was one of the organizers of the vigil last night.
I sincerely appreciate your feedback, and that offered by the many people who posted comments. I also appreciated amike’s defense of our efforts. Although I thought the event was much more successful than you did, I agree that we might have struck a better balance between stories of hardship and stories and speakers that evoked the larger political narrative -- still being written -- about how we are going to redress the current situation and bring about real health care reform. I tried to do this some when I spoke to close out the event.
I think that you are probably right about MoveOn's thinking in calling for vigils, rather than rallies. It was an attempt to circumvent, or at least minimize, the clash between the tea-bag counter-protesters and those of us calling for reform. I don’t think this decision was made out of timidity, but rather the pragmatic realization that any outbreak of violence would dominate the news, drowning out any other story or idea. Indeed a google search of today’s news shows that by far the most popular vigil story is of a particularly grisly clash between vigil-goers and counter-protesters in Southern California. If this is what happened at a candlelit vigil, I shudder to think what might have happened had MoveOn decided on the rally route.
My interest in helping to set up the vigil was simple -- I'm looking for ways to engage more people in this political movement. My fellow volunteers and I have put on dozens of events this year, focusing on clean energy, climate change, the economy, and health care. All of our other events were much closer to what you call for -- a call to arms, a clear articulation of what we pushing for and why, an attempt to channel public anger into an impassioned demand. That kind of event is quite frankly more up my alley as well, but I can tell you that last night's vigil had the largest turnout we have attracted all year. Our rough count of the crowd at its peak was closer to a thousand. Hundreds of these people signed in, many pledging to help us plan our next event. Not all of them will necessarily follow through, but some will, and I think that will make a huge difference. On that basis alone, the vigil was hugely successful, from my point of view.
I work with an amazing network of fellow volunteers, all of whom do the necessary planning and preparation that go into pulling off a public event in their spare time, mostly on weekends and evenings. We are supported by the very hardworking and passionate, but rather skeletal, MoveOn staff. I have also had contact with the members of other groups that we have partnered with -- from Health Care for America Now (HCAN) and Democracy for America and a host of others – and found them to be equally well-intentioned and committed. It's both a privilege and a pleasure to work alongside such enthusiastic and diligent people.
But the truth is that there are still too few of us. What will it take to spark the millions of people on the left who are too cynical or disillusioned to get involved? I don't mean this as a rhetorical question, nor as a jab. I've certainly been in that place myself. I decided to increase my own involvement this year because I knew that this year promised the first real chance for progressive legislation in my whole adult lifetime. But I also knew that it was only a chance, far from a fait accompli. It would take tens of thousands of us, spilling off the sidewalks and into the streets, for our government to actually listen to us. That hasn’t happened yet. We did have over 3000 people at the health care rally organized last weekend by Health Care for America and Organizing for America (with dozens of co-sponsors, including MoveOn). But I remember the anti-nuclear rallies I went to as a teenager, and the stories of the civil rights marches my parents went to before I was born. Why weren’t there 300,000 people at the health care rally last week?
When I ask people why there isn’t a bigger and more active progressive movement in this country right now, especially when I ask those who haven’t been moved to take part, they typically cite dissatisfaction with the strategy, tactics, or messaging of those of us who are taking action. We aren’t addressing the right problems or the real problems; our goals are too meek or unclear; our tactics are not creative or compelling enough.
I obviously don’t agree with these folks, but I often think they have a point, and try to find the value in their critique. I do agree that our efforts have been limited in many ways. That’s why we need your help, I’ll tell them. If our local MoveOn Councils had ten or twenty core members, who worked together consistently month in and month out, instead of five or six, we could significantly increase the caliber of our events and the impact of our actions. It’s the classic chicken and egg scenario. I ask what it would take to get more people involved, and the response is “Do more meaningful things,” to which I reply, “Join us and we can do more meaningful things.”
I reiterate what I said at the beginning: I appreciate and take value from the feedback. I wonder if you have any advice for how a robust, passionate progressive movement, one that took to the streets and demanded health care as a right, not a privilege, might be born. I don’t think it’s as simple as a change in the tone of the events that are planned – I’ve been to too many this year that had just the tone you described, but with far fewer participants.
September 3, 2009 7:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
One quick clarification: it sounds as if I were calling the MoveOn staffers "skeletal," rather than commenting on the fact that MoveOn accomplishes a phenomenal amount with very few paid staff members. All the staffers whom I have met have looked quite healthy.
September 3, 2009 7:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you for what you did. It's a tough job around here, but someone has to do it. So again, thank you.
September 3, 2009 9:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
It would take tens of thousands of us, spilling off the sidewalks and into the streets, for our government to actually listen to us.
Is there any evidence that the government listens any more to people who are "on the streets" than to people anywhere else? Personally, when I see any sort of rally or public demonstration, I tune it out.
September 3, 2009 11:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
David,
your effort is much appreciated, but it seems the elephant in the room is what everybody including you wants to ignore. Race.
The most impacted people of the US healthcare system are people of color. The healthcare system is deeply racialized because poverty in the US is deeply racialized.
The republican party lives on racial fears. It portrays "socialized medicine" as taking from "hard working" white folks and "redistributing" to the "lazy" blacks, and they use Obama's skin color as prime evidence.
Instead of standing up to them and saying yes, Obama is black. Poverty is black, better healthcare will help black people even more that it will help everybody, but it will help everybody, and all that is a good thing! Insteading of calling them out on their racism, you seem to be focusing on getting white and middle class people comfortable by hiding the race issue and NOT mobilizing the support for reform through communities of people of color.
My problem is you seem to want to "triangulate" Right Wing racism instead of calling them out on it. And that is why you have a vigil in NYC!!!! with 90% white people on an issue that bears the most impact on people of color.
You don't accommodate racism. You reject it. This is both a matter of principle and a matter of practically, because it is racism that makes possible the alliance of Insurance company and poor white people who are destroying their own future because they are so much afraid of racial equality. And because that is a part of democratic base that you simply cannot win without mobilizing.
September 4, 2009 8:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
While it is true that people of color are the most impacted by poor health care service, I would submit the problem starts well before they see their doctor. They have to first, get the job that will provide them with the opportunity to have health care in the first place. Fixing the health care delivery system and curing racisim in the market place may just be to high a wall to climb. Greater choice (PPO vs HMO etc) may be the answer, allowing people to choose the doctor that will serve their needs best. By the time your claim is received by the insurance companies, color is no longer an issue. They are equal opportunity deniers, kicking out 22% of all claims received. Changing the system is the answer, because we may not live long enough to wait for changing of hearts.
September 4, 2009 10:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
David, Thanks for your constructive response. I admire what you're doing and will join you at the next planning meeting, next week. Briefly for now, what I'm hearing from people who worked hard for Obama is that they've suffered from the lack of clarity about what they're advocating. This is nobody's fault, in particular; it's a function of the fact that Obama, for understandable reasons, chose to hang back while 5 Congressional committees did their things. Now, I think he understands that when he speaks next week he has to underscore, simply, the nonnegotiable *principles* for reform: universality, affordability, portability, public opinion--in short, a right. At the insurance company rallies, there should be a mix of indignation--overpaid executives, high overhead--with personal testimonials. I think we can pull this out.
September 5, 2009 9:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Anonymous forums allow for painful honesty to find expression:
Given the age of the average person you described, I'd say the mood you described was about right. Protests are not made by the old (or near-old).
They are made by the young.
And for the young, health care is about as important issue as social security. This is one of the worse times to be young in this country since they lifted the deferments on the draft for Vietnam.
What's the biggest issue on the young's minds? Jobs. A stable future income of any kind. I can do without healthcare much longer than food and shelter. Especially if I'm young.
I think what you are seeing is the aging boomer generation again trying to rally it's faithful. Only this time they find that numbers alone aren't enough. Energy is.
Rallies should have a sense of excitement. All due respect to David Greenson (and I mean this sincerely): if you were worried about violence taking things over on TV, then would you have been against the violence that broke out during the Vietnam protests? During the 1968 Democrat Convention?
It's time for the older people to play the role of mentors. Older people don't make protests. They are supposed to be good at working the backdoors of power. They are supposed to help the younger people organize.
Rallies are about excitement and energizing. Rallies are about youthful indignation. They are about getting in your face. They are about screaming. They are about wanting to be at an event.
Now: if you can't recruit enough young people (and remember, Obama could!), then perhaps the issue isn't so compelling.
But if you can recruit enough young people, remember that a youthful mob will look scary to you.
Just as you looked scary to your parents.
September 3, 2009 9:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was there in 1968, in the company of Dr. Benjamin Spock, who was on the faculty of the Medical School at Western Reserve University. He was at least forty years older than I. We may have said don't trust anyone over thirty, but we didn't mean it. We trusted Gene McCarthy. We trusted Bobby Kennedy. We trusted the Berrigan Brothers. It does no good to turn this into a war of the generations.
September 3, 2009 9:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Excuse me, but didn't your peer group say something about trust and age 30?
It has been a war of generations since the demographics has given your a boost.
Also, Dr. Spock was out there, sure. But it wasn't an entire audience of Dr. Spocks, was it? All I am saying is that at some point someone might try to read a few tea leaves:
Why wasn't there more young people at the rally?
I'm offering a possible explanation. I welcome you to best my explanation with another better one. Maybe we will learn something. Together.
September 3, 2009 9:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
You sure don't read very carefully for a clear thinker. I might as well quoute myself:
And many other to numerous to mention.
September 4, 2009 11:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
Perhaps clearthinker has reached the age for needing reading glasses!
September 4, 2009 11:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
clearthinker incorrectly claims:
This concept is total bullshit.
Since cleathinker is historically not very good at self-examination, it shouldn't surprise us that he voices a common misconception about the agents of social protest. The facts on the ground reveal that clearthinker (like many people) sees only what he wants to see, despite recorded evidence to the contrary.
P.S. You'll like this link, amike. ;-)
September 4, 2009 11:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
You are reaching, gasket. That article really isn't about America... nor about the modern media age.
Nor does it contradict what I said, your bifocals must be fogged.
I did say that it's time for older folks to be mentors. Give their experience. Successful mass demonstrations need the young who have the time and energy to get things going.
No one has addressed my point that perhaps for the young, healthcare isn't the most pressing issue. Or is that too radical to even contemplate?
Classic projection.
September 4, 2009 12:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
I love it. I've bookmarked it. Thanks for backing me up. I'm not going to bother with the "sugar coating history" downstream. I'll let Barney Frank(A member of my generation) speak for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULtgIBKemlc
and what of what generation is the dining room table?
September 4, 2009 1:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Enjoyed the article. But isn't this article more on our perceptions rather than on whether change is made by a certain age group? I took it as a warning that what we remember and learn can be greatly influenced by our already set up point of view.
Of course, that warning goes out to how I read the article too!
September 4, 2009 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think there are two lessons in the article, matyra. As you identified, one lesson is that we come to our understanding of history with preconceived biases which are so strong that they cause us to ignore the broader story (even when the facts are right in front of our eyes).
So, amike presented plenty of facts to directly counter clearthinker's bias, yet clearthinker holds on to his bias anyway.
Another fact of "protest history" clearthinker ignores is that an older generation (including teachers, long-time civil rights activists, labor organizers, etc.) taught amike's generation how to protest in the first place. That clearthinker maintains his position about the role of "older people" is ludicrous. He actually said:
Tell that to 82-year-old Alice Herz.
But even Abbie Hoffman and Bobbie Seale were over 30 in 1968. Of course Martin Luther King Jr. was 39 that year.
The other lesson in the article is about the potential power of older women specifically (to the author's mind) and ordinary people in general to participate as important agents of social change.
If you look at historic turning points, effective change requires a coalition of many groups to mount a persistent effort that challenges the stubborn status quo.
September 4, 2009 6:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Listening takes work compared to hearing something. I really wish we had the same kind of term with reading. "Yeah, I read that article." could mean a skim, a quick read, or a slow ripping the thing apart and figuring out what it meant kind of read. I did something between a read with just a hint of figuring. Maybe that's why some people seem to talk over others--they aren't really listening.
September 4, 2009 6:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gasket,
As usual, you need to swallow your own advice. You obviously missed this paragraph in my original comment:
Instead, you merely quoted out of context. Such is life with you -- so careful in real-life, so careless on the Internet.
Also, again, cherry picking your examples of protesters showing that there are some older ones is rather disingenuous -- you need multitudes for an effective rally. Or do you need us younger folks to start cluing you in?
You'd have a different view of the world, if the generation ahead of you in the 1960's told you everything needed to be framed in terms of the 1920's. I think you'd be rather tired of it as well.
There was never anything about your generation that gave us the idea of aging gracefully. Instead, we heard about "the slackers" and "the lazy generation". At last you are going, screaming, into the night... and, full of narcissism to the last, wondering why you aren't getting an encore.
Perhaps if your generation had been better behaved during the 1984 election (say), we wouldn't be in these messes now. At the peak of your earning power, yours was the generation that voted for Ronald Reagan. Yes, some of us young people study history too... And they always say that the best history is of the generation after those who experience it directly.
As a generation you've stubbornly tried to hold power for as long as possible and did not nurture in any meaningful way those behind you.
You're reaping what you've sown.
September 4, 2009 10:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the laugh, clearthinker. You always try really really hard to offend me. If you were ever remotely accurate about anything, it might be more effective.
First of all, I didn't miss anything in your comment: I carefully highlighted one sentence to show how stupid and false it was. A stupid, false sentence is a stupid, false sentence, no matter the context. You should be a more careful writer. Study the masters, like Hemingway, and try to emulate them.
Second, I don't think you have an accurate grasp of where "my generation" falls. My generation was nowhere near its peak earning power in the 1980s.
Furthermore, until relatively recently (2008 election), my generation had no political power. We are late bloomers. We are not stubbornly holding on to power because we have never had it.
Finally, my generation tends to look beyond the boomers in both directions for our allies. However, because of our proximity to the boomers, we have zero tolerance for younger, hyper-aggressive egocentrics who never know what the fuck they are talking about.
September 5, 2009 11:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Apologies. My reply ended up downstream.
September 4, 2009 12:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm one of the multitude who don't show up at rigils and vallies (?). It just seems pointless, except for the fun of singing in and to the choir. Are we all so smart and critical that we interfere with each other and keep the wave from building? I'm so discouraged that Obama is probably giving away the public option and the right to bargain down drug prices that I ate a whole pizza (instead of joining a march). I have to go now and work it off.
September 4, 2009 3:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sure. About the time you turned 30.
I read your response. And saying "we didn't mean it" is about as childish as it gets. And that's why it wasn't worth responding to -- and reminding people of the demographic issue.
And your peer group were quite split over Kennedy vs McCarthy. I've talked to plenty of McCarthy supporters that didn't trust Kennedy -- and saw his as a shameless opportunist. Please don't sugar coat history.
Your generation has been the 800 lbs elephant in this country since you've been born. You simply don't understand how much the rest of us had to accommodate you, both older and younger.
But at long last, your generation is truly old enough where Father Time is getting you off the national stage. And it's quite a shock to your system. It's been your generation that, while inadvertent at times, has been committing generational warfare. It's not surprising you are so resistant to the idea that when youth don't follow your issues, it's something wrong with youth, not the issues you are picking or how you chose to protest.
I'm sorry you chose not to offer a better explanation at why the age skewed older at the rally.
September 4, 2009 12:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd say that youth for whom the state of healthcare in the US is not a big issue is a very particular brand of youth, youth without family, without roots, without a coherent sense of their coming lifespan, and without a vision of the society they want or their role in creating it.
That's the charitable interpretation. The less charitable one is that this is youth with too much money and the certitude of an assured career.
So maybe you are such a youth, I hope not, but if you are, don't project your immaturity and narcissism on "youth" in general.
The relative absence of youth (and ever more so the absence of people of color) from the frontlines of the campaign for healthcare reform is a deep problem. And it reflects in my opinion the choices made by the liberal groups and by Obama himself to keep the fire low, to moderate and to block rather than engage popular anger.
Instead of a deep campaign about the nature of American society that confront the Right broadly, on corporatism, on racism, on the primacy of profits, that links all the fronts, the economy, the environment, healthcare, poverty, etc., they have pushed a shallow and wonkish debate about barely comprehensible minutiae. This debate is not inspiring and so few people are inspired.
September 4, 2009 2:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, we seem to agree on one thing:
The rallies haven't been made exciting!
You and I agree if they were, we'd see more youth -- and others too.
However, I didn't say healthcare wasn't a "big issue" as you dismiss. I said healthcare wasn't the #1 priority. It's hard to see how you can say otherwise when I'm concerned about making money today -- not worrying about being healthy tomorrow. Without a chronic condition, healthcare issues don't affect me on a day to day basis.
September 4, 2009 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
If you are concerned about "making money" rather than "making a living" or "having a good job," then perhaps you are crushing the wrong party.
While in a good society everybody can make a living, "making money" is something only a privileged minority can do. If you belong to that privileged group, you don't need us. If you don't, we can't and have no reason to help you.
If you are using these terms interchangeably, it reflects the way the corporatist, profits first, financialized view of the world that we need to be fighting is already lodged in your mind.
September 4, 2009 2:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd stand and applaud but it's difficult to do that and type at the same time.
September 4, 2009 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
You remind me of the story of the starving man who, when bought a gourmet meal by a wealthy, philanthropist was asked "How is it?"
"Great!" said the starving man. "Very filling! Thank you!"
"Yes, you are welcome," said the philanthropist. "But what I meant was 'how does it taste'?"
September 4, 2009 4:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
(I'm not totally sure if you're talking about yourself or people's mindset here.)
But they do. A chunk of every paycheck you get (or later depending upon how you get paid and how honest you are) goes to healthcare in different forms. Medicare. Medicaid. And invariably some of people's Social Security goes to buy drugs or pay some co-pay or some non-covered treatment. Some of your money (not much, normally, as young healthy people pay less) will go to an insurance company (if you have insurance) and help pay for someone's else's care as well.
At any given moment you could have a mental lapse and fall down a stairway, break a finger playing volleyball, get hit by a car riding your bike to work, be mugged by a stranger who decides he doesn't like your face and hits it, etc. At one time or another healthcare affects us all.
I noticed it first when my grandparents started getting sick and much of what they needed was unavailable. So it affected me before I even needed anything, because it's problems were right in my face.
When I broke my arm last year in martial arts, I was damn happy that everything was covered. It would have really sucked to have to do something like give plasma so that I could get a cast.
I guess my point is that our age isn't everything. Whether in the need for universal healthcare or our ability to fight for it. My wife's grandparents had the largest "No War" signs in their yard than I've ever seen. They were so huge that you had to laugh, as each letter was larger than the front door. Last year, they were equally as enthusiastic about Obama. For some people, I think, retirement means that they don't give a shit anymore about what their neighbors think, or their employers, or anyone anymore, and they are free to just let it fly.
September 4, 2009 6:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
You've missed my point. It's not that healthcare isn't important -- it's that, for some, there are more pressing issues: today.
Your own quote:
is the same as mine. The people in retirement suddenly have religion about things that matter now that they are old enough? Where were they when they were younger?
People will protest the things they are passionate about. If the pain is great enough, they will even risk things. But you won't be able to convince people what their priorities in life should be. If you can't attract people to protest for healthcare, I suggest the people with the message need to sit down, quietly, and contemplate what they are doing wrong -- because their arguments apparently aren't compelling.
The original blogger asked why the vigils turned out older folks. I provided a possible explanation. Few here have been able to offer alternatives.
September 4, 2009 8:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes...I wonder how many people on the right and the left would be out in the streets protesting if they knew there was a good chance they might get their skulls bashed in ?
C
September 4, 2009 10:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
You will find out in your lifetime.
September 5, 2009 9:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Clearthinker, I think the question you're asking should be expanded, and I'd be interested in your response to it: why aren't more "young people" (however that's defined) taking action around the things that they are passionate about?
I think that you're probably right that health care is not the top concern of today's youth, but quite frankly I don't see huge numbers of young people taking to the streets about other issues, either. For most of this year, I organized events for MoveOn's PowerUp America campaign. It's goals were to create 5 million good green jobs and put us on the path to 100% clean electricity in 10 years. This campaign would seem to come much closer to some of the "young people's" priorities you mentioned. And many of the folks who joined me in organizing, and turned out for the events, were indeed young. But the older folks were still a disproportionate percentage of those active -- despite the fact that these issues -- jobs and climate change -- will have much less direct impact on their lives than they will on younger generations.
Now, you might speculate that we just don't organize events that are exciting to young people, and you might be right. But that doesn't really address the larger question: why aren't young people creating their own actions? Certainly the folks in my parents' generation -- the Boomers who drove the various 60's revolutions -- didn't limit themselves to the political tactics proposed by their elders.
I don't mean to ask this in a accusatory way ("What's wrong with you people?"), and my curiosity isn't limited to the Generation Y and Z folks. I'm Gen X myself, and I don't understand why there aren't more of us out there either. The folks who came of age in the 60's still seem to be the most reliably active, regardless of the issue, type of event, or almost any other criteria. They aren't standing in the way of the rest of us: what is?
September 6, 2009 8:53 AM | Reply | Permalink