Netanyahu, Sensing Health Reform Failure, Rejects Obama's Mideast Proposals
Today's Ha'aretz reports that Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu is giving Special Envoy George Mitchell his answer on the matter of Jerusalem's status and settlements.
"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is expected to tell the special U.S. Mideast envoy on Monday that Israel will not accept any limitations on its sovereignty over Jerusalem, and will allow settlers to continue to live in the West Bank," the paper reports.
In other words, Netanyahu is flat-out rejecting the President's proposals and is also telling the Palestinians that they can forget about negotiations. He knows that if the book is closed on Jerusalem and settlements the Palestinians will understand that all they can do is negotiate the terms of their surrender.
I hear from Israel that Netanyahu's rebuff to Obama is a direct result of his perception of Obama's declining fortunes here. He sees what is happening with the health reform issue and Obama's fall in the polls and believes he can prevail over, what he hopes is. a President on the ropes permanently.
This is just one more reason for Obama to forget about Republicans and Blue Dogs and enact the strongest bill possible -- with a powerful public component -- by including health care reform it in the reconciliation bill and passing it with a simple majority.
We'll have universal coverage, Obama will look like the leader we know he is. And all the international players who are counting on his failure, like Netanyahu who works closely with the Republicans, would take serious notice.
The majority rules in this country. And we Democrats have it. We should use it. The implications of failure, or a half victory, will affect every aspect of Obama's Presidency. Thanks to Netanyahu for reminding us.

















Obama should also say to Binyamin - Fine do as you please, but you won't mind if I do as well. So we won't be sending along any loan guarantees, military aid or financial aid.
August 24, 2009 11:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
In your dreams. Mine, too...
August 24, 2009 5:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
....And mine.
August 24, 2009 9:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
After health care passes, Israel's next.
So have fun now, Bibi. While it lasts!
August 24, 2009 12:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Health care will not be over until December at the earliest, will it? D:
August 24, 2009 5:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with jsfox, cutting off our loans that enable Israel to buy our arms, would help reduce the deficit.
Unfortunately, domestically Obama continues to think the process is more important than the product. While it will make it convenient to say a particular bill or policy lacks bipartisan support, and therefore should die a premature death, Omama's Presidency will end in next general election unless he understands the GOP wants his failure, even if it substantially hurts the Country they are supposed to represent.
August 24, 2009 12:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
One could easily think that Obama and co. were in a coma throughout the Clinton years.
If there was anything to be learned from those days, it was, as far as the GOP is concerned, there are no rules and no depths that can be plumbed in "getting" the president.
August 24, 2009 10:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
obama does not seem to know when it is time to cut people off at the knee. he just waits too long. he has the fantasy of being bi-partisan leader. for the sake of maintaining that fantasy he is being way over-accomodating. obama should stop trying to be a bi-partisan legend in his own mind. reality is a different matter. it takes two to dance and obama is slow in realizing that he has no dancing partner in either the republicans or in netanyahu.
obama should remove the perception of weakness that is now beginning to take hold about him before it is too late. the vultures are smelling blood.
August 24, 2009 12:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
well said, as usual.
sadly I came to same conclusions a while back.
smiling and praising the republicans while they lie and smear him is not very attractive, and that perception has cost him lots of support.
August 24, 2009 6:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh really?
Good ... And when those vultures step forward thinking the carcass is their's to pick clean ... the panther strikes.
~OGD~
August 24, 2009 1:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama doesn't care about the public option, so he must be confident that a handout to health care industry can be spun as a victory.
I can't help but wonder if our secret government is planning some big surprise in the fall.
Bush was in about the same situation Obama is in now, back in August 2001. Rapidly dropping approval rating, public opposition to a pro-corporate agenda, and looking at a one term presidency.
As Andrew Card said about the rollout of the Iraq War marketing campaign, "from a marketing perspective, you don't introduce new products in August."
Obama is rolling over for the health care lobbies, and if he were to strongly take on Israel in any meaningful or even symbolic way, he will face a shitstorm the likes of which he already knows to avoid at all costs.
Obama's gonna need "some catalyzing event, like a new Pearl Harbor" by December.
We already know our government unleashed anthrax on us to get us into war with Iraq, complete with fake letters like:
"Death to Israel
Death to America
Allah is great"
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/frameup.html
How convenient would a chemical, biological, or even car bomb attack from "Iran" or "terrorists with ties to Tehran" be for Obama?
August 24, 2009 1:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
And I hate to link to a Fox News clip, but watch Obama backtrack on the importance of capturing or killing bin Laden:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP_AQZEBR-s
Not Salim bin Laden, the CIA operative who started a Cayman Island based airplane company with GWB's business partner James Bath, which supplied planes to BCCI bank. No, I'm talking about the other CIA connected bin Laden brother, or one of the other CIA connected bin Laden brothers, Osama.
August 24, 2009 1:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Shorter Bill Walker:
Obama is just like Bush. Will unleash terror attack on his own country.
August 24, 2009 1:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama wouldn't even have to know about it. But given how little he wants to expose the crimes of the last administration, I doubt he would out an attack as an inside job, don't you?
August 24, 2009 2:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Shorter Bill Walker Revised:
"Obama clueless about what is going on in his country; anyway, doesn't care; wouldn't expose it even if he knew something, would allow countless innocent people to get killed."
When Bill says things like this about Obama, I understand much better where he is coming from on other issues.
August 24, 2009 4:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
billwalker is a total LaRouchebag. He's probably one of those people walking around at a town hall meeting carrying a sign with an Obama picture with a Hitler moustache.
His link is about how the anthrax attack is an inside job. I'm kind of disappointed because I think he should be focused on finding the second shooter on the grassy knole before he delves into this lesser matter.
August 24, 2009 5:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I supported Obama ever since his big speech in '04, and obsessively followed the campaign in '08, even as my enthusiasm for him waned.
Some time around late '07, I realized that Obama wouldn't have even been offered the keynote speech in '04 if the party elders didn't know that Obama would play ball. But even then I didn't know to what extent Obama would play ball.
We know that Bush Inc. lied us into war, lied to Congress, committed war crimes, committed acts of terror by artificially inflating the terror threat levels (thus, terrorizing us), and Obama refuses to do anything at all, and opposes even truth commissions.
You think he would stand up if, say, the swine flu was created in a government lab?
Remember about the anthrax attack: The FBI couldn't decide who it wanted to falsely accuse, but concluded it was a lone nut regardless of who the eventual final suspect would be.
And why do you think everybody went pointing and running up the grassy knoll after Kennedy's head jerked back and to the left?
August 24, 2009 6:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bill: Now that I know you're a conspiracy theorist, I won't argue with you any more. You can have your opinions. The only exception I will make is for open anti-Semitism.
August 24, 2009 6:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Death to Israel
Death to America
Allah is great"
Did a Muslim write that anthrax letter?
August 24, 2009 7:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
You sound like a raving lunatic. Who ever said a Muslim wrote that letter?
I admit that I made the connection with 9/11 when it happened. After all, it was all in the same week.
But first they started pointing at their 2001 'Richard Jewell', that is Hatfield, but then they found out it was Ivins. I don't think anyone ever said either was a Muslim.
August 25, 2009 9:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
I hope Obama does stand up to the Israelis, just to see what "Progressive Conscience" will say about him then! America has an anti-Semetic President!
Hey Progressive, can I use that schtick? I'm Jewish born and bred, >i>brissed and Bar Mitzvahed. If someone doesn't give me what I want, or tries to prosecute me for a crime, will calling them an "anti-Semite" fix it all? Will they shrink in horror at the epithet, and immediately beg to make it right? Is that who it works for you?
After all, the Jews are entitled to colonialism, racism, collective punishment and illegal occupations just as much as anybody else. Why, just as much as the Germans in fact! They got to do it! Why can't we. You Americans really screwed over your Red Indians. So why can't we screw over the Palestinians?
Gosh, maybe I'll go back to being a Zionist! Once you get a whiff of that ziocaine, there's no limit to what you are entitled to.
August 24, 2009 11:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Totally. I smelled him here
August 24, 2009 8:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm a disappointed Obama supporter, if you didn't notice.
"Death to Israel
Death to America
Allah is great"
Did a Muslim write that anthrax letter? Would only a right winger question the letter?
Suuuuuuure.
August 24, 2009 9:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bullshit.
August 24, 2009 8:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
MJ: Every-Divorced-Woman's-First-Husband is just confirming that America won't sanction Israel, so why not tell us to buzz off? He can always count on support from Mr. Huckabee and the Congressional Bobblenecks, Cantor and Hoyer.
And the only losers will be the Palestinians. The Saudis can use Israel's intransigence to maintain their status quo, i.e., non-recognition. that helps buy off their Jihadis. Egypt can pout about Israel, but continue collecting American foreign aid. And Iran can say, "I told you so" to the Sunni Arabs. Every progressive voice is discredited. Every cynical voice is strengthened.
But Israel will continue to inch toward full blown apartheid. See http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090824/wl_mideast_afp/mideastisraelarabdiplomacy.
Ain't life grand?
August 24, 2009 1:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
As I, perhaps naively, see it, there are only four options to the Israel Palestinian game:
1) Single state with an Arab identity and a Jewish subserviency.
2) Single state with a Jewish identity and Arab subserviency.
3) Single state with a pluralistic system
4) Two state solution, one with a Jewish identity and one with an Arab identity.
America is a pluralistic system - that's what we believe in. Therefore option #3 is most natural for us to support.
Because of our values and history we cannot ever support, or have a hand in supporting, options 1 or 2.
Because of our strong ethnic ties and history and awareness to recent Jewish history and the plane fact that we like Jewish people, America is willing, just barely, and able, just barely, to stretch itself philosophically, to accept option number 4.
If Israel chooses option #2, that's fine and dandy, but everyone knows, the Huckabites not withstanding, that we can't follow them there. The best we can do is wish them good luck with that.
I think all of that needs to be restated, and quite clearly: "America supports Israel, but we can't support, nor be actively involved in any way shape or manner, a single state solution that would imply one group hegomonic over another group. However, we hope for the best for Israel's future, we look on anxiously at developments there, and we wish them the best of luck if they choose to pursue a single state solution. "
I'd like to see how long Netanyahoo would stand after a simple statement like that were made by the President.
Even the Huckabites know, we can't accept tyranny, especially organized and systematic tyranny.
August 25, 2009 7:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah I don't think anyone ever said the two-state solution would be perfect or easy, but it's definitely better than the other options you've listed. And it's definitely better than the current state of affairs.
August 25, 2009 9:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
I hear from Israel that Netanyahu's rebuff to Obama is a direct result of his perception of Obama's declining fortunes here. He sees what is happening with the health reform issue and Obama's fall in the polls and believes he can prevail over, what he hopes is. a President on the ropes permanently.
Interesting, MJ. But here's what I want to know: Is the Netanyahu government just playing the ball as it lies in this situation? Or are they actively seeking to use their influence with hard line pro-Israel supporters in the US to undermine and subvert Obama's health care reform efforts in order to weaken his position politically, and reap the benefits of political failure and dissatisfaction with Obama's leadership?
If there is any evidence that it is the latter, I think someone should get the word out to the public that a foreign government is trying to screw millions of uninsured, under-insured and expensively insured Americans out of a better health care system, all for the sake of their own intransigent and expansionist agenda.
I notice that Joe Lieberman came out of his corner yesterday to throw cold water on health care reform. On the other hand, Steny Hoyer is, as far as I know, still strongly supporting the health care reform effort.
What is your reading? What are your contacts telling you?
August 24, 2009 3:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Did you quote Joe Lieberman?
August 24, 2009 3:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lieberman: "I think it's a real mistake to try to jam through the total health insurance reform, health care reform plan that the public is either opposed to or of very, very passionate mixed minds about."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090824/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_overhaul
Maybe good ol' Joementum, whose state is home to a lot of insurance companies, just has the usual centrist, pro-corporate worries about the public option.
Or maybe what he's concerned about is the potential impact of a huge Obama legislative victory on the the president's political power at home and abroad.
I want to know what MJ is hearing.
August 24, 2009 3:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Joe's got his lifetime insurance, why should he worry about anyone else's?
What a mensch.
August 24, 2009 5:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dan: I have no doubt that if MJ had something even more negative to say about Israel than he says in this post, he would have said it. He's certainly not bashful about such things.
So the answer to your question appears to be no.
August 24, 2009 4:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
With all due respect PC, I think I'll wait to hear what MJ has to say about this issue.
August 24, 2009 4:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know of any direct contact. I do know that the usual suspects here in DC and in Israel want Obama to fail so that he will leave the Mideast alone.
I also know that Bibi himself is essentially a Republican. He came to DC during impeachment and sat down with the GOP leadership to discuss the future once Bill was gone. He even made a disgusting joke about Bill's cigar and Monica to Gingrich.
I like to quote what Bill Clinton told me about Bibi at the WH in 1997. I was doing a classic anti-Bibi rant and the President said, "Bibi? You don't know the half of it my friend."If I on;y know 50% and its as bad as it is, I wonder what President Clinton, President Obama and Secretary Clinton know.
But again I don't see coordination. As they say, great minds think alike. So do the neocons.
August 24, 2009 5:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Even without hearing your story I always knew Netanyahu was a low-life. How did they go from Rabin and Peres to that?
August 25, 2009 9:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Someone better remind NuttyYahoo specifically, and Israel in general, the we Christians love our oil, and the "Promised Land" is the ONLY land with out oil in the Middle Ages East. When push comes to shove, we'll push and shove Israel out of the way to get to our Christian God given right to oil.
August 24, 2009 4:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rectal:
Please cut out the anti-Semitism, even if intended in jest. Progressives wouldn't maeke racist jokes in jest; this is no different.
August 24, 2009 4:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe I'm being really dense here, but cranial's comments seem satirically anti-christian to me.
August 24, 2009 5:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, I don't get it either. The claim was that American Christians like their oil more than they like Israel. Correct or incorrect, where is the antisemitism in that?
August 24, 2009 8:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
When I hear religious comments around Israel, my ears prick up.
But if you're correct that this was meant purely as an anti-Christian comment, I still object to it. We progressives have to be respectful of others in our community, not to mention elsewhere.
August 24, 2009 9:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the chuckle.
August 24, 2009 10:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't mind waiting and hearing it from the horse's mouth.
August 24, 2009 4:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is just one more reason for Obama to forget about Republicans and Blue Dogs and enact the strongest bill possible -- with a powerful public component -- by including health care reform it in the reconciliation bill and passing it with a simple majority.
Amen.
August 24, 2009 5:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
A spot-on commentary. It is admittedly not particularly original, but it is to be hoped that it becomes less and less original and that the U.S. president, and even more so Congressional Democrats, go with that flow.
August 24, 2009 5:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
I gotta think that the GOP is working with Bibi on this.
August 24, 2009 5:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks MJR. I'll look forward to your thoughts as this plays out.
August 24, 2009 5:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
THANKS!
August 24, 2009 5:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great to see lots of new people posting. I guess TPC, BTD, and AG haven't pressured Josh Marshall to drop you!
And it breaks my heart to think that they are sad.
August 24, 2009 5:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't want MJ dropped; I like him, even if he is ornery sometimes . . .
In general, I favor free speech, including my freedom to challenge it.
August 24, 2009 5:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
And I thought you only fought for truth and justice.
August 24, 2009 6:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
What about the American Way?
August 24, 2009 6:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dear Prez Obama: throw out the 1,000-page bill and simply lower the eligibility age for Medicare to 50. It's not everything, but it's a start, and when people see how well it works, they'll be clamoring to have it lowered further to (insert age of clamorer here).
August 24, 2009 5:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I find the notion that Netanyahu is emboldened by a potential failure on healthcare to oppose Obama a bit disingenuous.
Netanyahu has opposed Obama from the beginning. Additionally, from the start, Israelis have been largely skeptical of Obama, and their skepticism has increased pronouncedly since Obama's speech in Cairo; Obama's perceived, in Israel, as being more aligned with the Palestinians than Israelis.
Thus, if anything has emboldened Netanyahu, it is the perceptions of Israelis. Furthermore, I think the perceptions of Israelis have been colored by Obama's race and his father's Muslim roots. [There's something to the reports that Israelis have been willing, even voracious, consumers of Orly Taitz's patently false assertions about Obama.]
I know that there is currently a willingness among the punditry (professional and amateur) to attribute a "weakness" to Obama during this healthcare debate. [That attribute that may or may not be apropos; the final bill will provide the clearest indication on this point.] But, if a question of strength, Obama and his administration have been incredibly resolute on this issue of settlement growth, arguably more resolute than they have been on any other. They have not ceded any ground in their call for a cessation of growth.
I think we should be reluctant to convolute issues that may have disparate, varied aspects that may parallel or may operate in unique dimensions. As such, a "grand unified theory" of Obama's power seems inappropriate, since, as Bush has shown (horrifically, but still applicable for the sake of argument) that presidents' foreign policy decisions can be wholly independent of domestic developments.
August 24, 2009 5:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
He Who Has No Name:
I agree with many elements of what you said, and in fact I was going to write a post making some of the same points.
When you say "to convolute issues", I think you mean to say "to conflate issues".
August 24, 2009 6:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for offering the note. "Conflate" certainly would've worked, too. But, convolute means to "coil up" or "entwine."
August 24, 2009 6:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ok - my apologies.
August 24, 2009 6:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that the democrats should give up on the Repubs and ram through the legislation, for all the reasons stated above. But when they do, we should all button up for the storm. Frank Rich’s Column this weekend was only the latest scary description of the self-stoked rage among the crazies. He notes that a security official said that the growth of right wing extremist groups was now the fastest he had seen it in 12 years and that “all they need is a spark.” I worry that the passage of a health bill with no republican backing would be that spark. No reason not to do it, but are we going to see another Oklahoma city? Or worse?
August 24, 2009 5:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Progressive" Conscience Please cut out the anti-Semitism, even if intended in jest. Progressives wouldn't maeke racist jokes in jest; this is no different.
the anti-semitism card. accepted in 175 countries world-wide. don't leave home without it. when arguing about israel, take out the card. watch the goy squirm. priceless.
August 24, 2009 6:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sadly, anti-Semitism is very common worldwide, so I have to agree with your lament, Pearl.
August 24, 2009 6:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Apparently, you didn't get BluePearl's sarcasm. Your all-consuming fight for truth and justice has clouded your x-ray vision.
August 24, 2009 6:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Either that, or you didn't get my sarcasm.
August 24, 2009 6:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
I know all too well about not catching the sarcasm and getting shit for it. It's easy to do.
August 24, 2009 8:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've been saying for weeks now that there's helluva lot more at stake than Health Care Reform
The Republicans have been saying so for months.
You’d think Gangsters Baucus and Conrad would have a clue
The Liebermans do..both Joe and his cousin Avigdor
August 24, 2009 6:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Could not agree more. We should not overlook how foreign policy affects domestic policy - and vice versa. USC's Mary Dudziak wrote a great book about how the international image of the United States went a long way in driving domestic policy - specifically in the area of civil rights (i.e. how could we champion freedom abroad when the Soviets could argue we lived in a big glass house). It became a leverage point... both for the Soviets to counter U.S. propaganda, and for American civil rights leaders to appeal not just to those concerned with domestic policy in DC, but those who were focusing on the expansion of communism around the world. It's not an exact comparison, but Rosenberg's point remains: How Obama plays this will ripple far beyond the water's edge.
August 24, 2009 6:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
They've even begun aping Bagger Rhetoric
Now I don't want to get all apocalyptic but there was The Visit to Jerusalem last week as well
665 - Number of the Huckabeast
August 24, 2009 7:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
The "natives" are restless!
August 24, 2009 7:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
RE: The "natives" are restless!
SEE:"Manila detains ship for arms smuggling", REUTERS, 08/22/2009
MANILA: Philippine authorities have seized a Panama-registered cargo ship and its crew after the vessel was found to contain crates of assault rifles when it docked at a local port without prior notice, officials said yesterday.
Customs and coast guard officials boarded the 5,421 gross ton ship on Thursday and found five crates containing 50 Israeli-made Galil assault rifles, they said. Ten empty crates were also found...[the ship had made a stopover in Indonesia]
...The ship was bound for Batangas province south of Manila from a port in Turkey based on a map found on board. Authorities are investigating whether it was transporting firearms to illegal syndicates, local warlords or militant groups. “These guns are the primary weapon of the Israeli army,” Balilo said. “This is dangerous if it falls into the wrong hands.”
The crew, mostly Georgians, do not speak English, police regional director Leonilo de la Cruz said. They did not provide any documentation to prove the cargo was legitimate...
SOURCE - http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=World_News&subsection=Philippines+%26+South+Asia&month=August2009&file=World_News200908227525.xml
August 24, 2009 9:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
RE: The "natives" are restless!
ALSO SEE: "Indonesia police dismiss Obama plot report", BY AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, 08/24/09
(excerpt) JAKARTA — Indonesian police on Monday dismissed a media report saying that Islamist extremists were planning to assassinate US President Barack Obama when he visits the country. National police chief Bambang Hendarso Danuri said analyst Dynno Chressbon, the Indonesian source quoted in the Western news agency’s report, had no right to make what he described as unsubstantiated comments. He said police knew of no Islamist plot to assassinate Obama, who is expected to visit the mainly Muslim country later this year...
...Other security analysts have disputed his claims that snipers planned to assassinate Obama as he left Jakarta’s main international airport, saying for instance that the US president would land at a more secure military facility. Obama is expected to visit Indonesia, where he lived for some years as a child, on the sidelines of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit in Singapore in November.
ENTIRE ARTICLE - http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/08/24/indonesia-police-dismiss/
August 24, 2009 10:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't consider myself to be anti-semite but I am at the moment very anti-Israel. I say that because I don't see what we are getting back for our support of Israel. We helped them when they were getting their asses kicked in the war and that's when we became the enemy of the Muslims. We give them 4 or 5 billion a year and all the guns and weapons they can buy and what we get in return is misery and shit. Their Aipac lobby is like the damned Mafia.
They spy on us, kill our soldiers and we continue to support them. They are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves. They even have a nuclear bomb and the best soldiers and air force next to us.
August 24, 2009 8:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
I partially agree with you because I think that because of our history of support (economic, military, diplomatic, etc.) Israel should be gladly going along with us on Iran and the peace process, but I have two qualms with what you've said.
"Their Aipac lobby is like the damned Mafia."
It's not "their" lobby, unfortunately it's ours. I don't like Feith, Wolfowitz, Abrams, etc. but they're American citizens entitled to their views. I don't like the agendas of the gun lobby, the Cuba lobby or the Christian Coalition either, but they're entitled to their views, however, bad they are. As bad as the lobby is anyway, how is it like the mafia? Does it kill people?
They "kill our soldiers"--what are you talking about?
The USS Liberty accident from over 40 years ago. Are you familiar with the USS Stark accident of 20 years ago? Do you know about the U.S. aircraft in Italy that accidentally cut a gondola cable? Did you know that more Americans died from friendly fire in the first Persian Gulf War than from enemy action? It's an unfortunate fact of life.
But other than this accident, I'm sure you have nothing else to back that claim.
Plus think of all the intelligence assistance that Israel has given the U.S. and how many citizens and soldiers that has likely saved. I'm not saying it's an equal relationship--undoubtedly the U.S. has given much more than it's gotten from Israel, but what ally actually gives more to the U.S. than what it gets?
August 25, 2009 9:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you Gary Owen and Progressive Conscience for your response to my comment. I just don't happen to believe the attack on the USS Liberty was an accident and I am not alone on this. I am also not a conspiracy theorist. So we disagree.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ussliberty.html
We get a lot of good intelligence from other countries too and I don't think it is good enough reason to support Israel at least not to the degree we do. I still maintain that we get very little in return from Israel to justify the problems we have as a result thereof.
I am also very aware of this country's past and I am not a flag waiver by any means. I abhor some of the history of this country but it doesn't change the way I feel about Israel. I don't believe I am an anti-semite because of my feelings toward the government of Israel. I detest the religious zionists who control it. I also have a big problem with 37 years of Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank.
If this makes me an anti-semite, then that is your definition not mine.
August 25, 2009 1:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Correction - 42 years of occupation!!
August 25, 2009 1:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't call you a conspiracy theorist or an anti-semite and I didn't try to delegitimze your views (in fact I partially agreed).
I might have taken your link seriously until I found this gem (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/blackmail.html?q=blackmail.html) on the same exact page. That's pretty vile stuff.
I know that the son of the commander of the the Liberty has a strong bone to pick with Israel and that is no surprise. What they went through is horrible. Even if it was intentional (which it wasn't) is that the entirety of your evidence, over 40 years old to suggest that "Israel kills American soldiers." That is an extremely weak case.
I would argue that your outrage is totally misplaced. Fast-forward to today: over 5,000 of the U.S.'s finest killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Many of them killed by weapons supplied by the Iranians.
August 25, 2009 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, Gary, "what really happened" is but just one place for information on the USS Liberty attack. I could have posted a lot of different sites. I can do that if you'd like but I doubt you would accept any as true since you are predisposed to feel the opposite. The British have concluded the same thing as did other countries. I guess your response will be that all of these other countries are anti-semitic?
You also mentioned that AIPAC is not the Israeli lobby but ours. Well, considering that most of AIPAC is made up of real zionists, I consider them to be an Israeli lobby.
I worked for an ultra Zionist lawyer for many years and I think I have a good understanding of their power. Israel came first - no matter what
August 25, 2009 5:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
When have I accused anyone of being anti-semitic? If some are too quick to accuse others of anti-semitism, you seem to be the opposite. You assume you're being accused of anti-semitism and use it to attack my character not my argument.
You also miss the point. I don't dispute that there are many places where you can read that the Liberty was intentional. I've read enough about it and I disagree.
I asked you to name another incident of Israelis killing American soldiers, and no surprise you're unable to name any. So your entire premise rests on one contested incident from over 40 years ago.
An American Zionist, no matter how you feel about them, is still an American. They are no better or worse than the other one issue lobbies: Cuba, guns, abortion, immigration, etc. Those lobbies are just as effective and ruthless. The gun lobby was covered on a recent post: http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/24/guns_the_nra_and_the_obama_opposition/
August 25, 2009 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't believe I attacked you at all. It is quite apparent we just disagree on this issue. I don't necessarily believe that is a bad thing.
But one last comment on this subject, Gary, and that is that it doesn't matter whether the attack on the USS Liberty was 40 years ago - it happened. You and I just disagree on whether or not it was an accident.
As I said before, I find it baffling that one cannot criticize Israel without being labeled an anti-semite.
August 25, 2009 5:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
And you mention that "We get a lot of good intelligence from other countries too." This is quite true.
Just as it is quite true that nearly all countries spy on each other, including allies.
You're not going to hear me defend Pollard. He can rot in that cell for all I care and if he is ever released he should not be allowed to go to Israel. I've talked to quite a few American patriots that happen to be Jewish and we'd love to beat some sense into him.
August 25, 2009 2:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Unfortunately, malicious Israeli spying continues unabated:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWpWc_suPWo
They knew about 9/11. Haaretz reported that some Israeli employees in the WTC received an anonymous text message two hours before the attack to get out of the building:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=77744
August 25, 2009 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
'The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
by Eric S. Margolis
NEW YORK – On the fourth day of the 1967 Arab Israeli War, the intelligence ship 'USS Liberty' was steaming slowly in international waters, 14 miles off the Sinai Peninsula. Israeli armored forces were racing deep into Sinai in hot pursuit of the retreating Egyptian army.
'Liberty,' a World War II freighter, had been converted into an intelligence vessel by the top-secret US National Security Agency, and packed with the latest signals and electronic interception equipment. The ship bristled with antennas and electronic 'ears' including TRSSCOMM, a system that delivered real-time intercepts to Washington by bouncing a stream of microwaves off the moon.
'Liberty' had been rushed to Sinai to monitor communications of the belligerents in the Third Arab Israeli War: Israel and her foes, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan.
At 0800 hrs, 8 June, 1967, eight Israeli recon flights flew over 'Liberty,' which was flying a large American flag. At 1400 hrs, waves of low-flying Israeli Mystere and Mirage-III fighter-bombers repeatedly attacked the American vessel with rockets, napalm, and cannon. The air attacks lasted 20 minutes, concentrating on the ship's electronic antennas and dishes. The 'Liberty' was left afire, listing sharply. Eight of her crew lay dead, a hundred seriously wounded, including the captain, Commander William McGonagle.
At 1424 hrs, three Israeli torpedo boats attacked, raking the burning 'Liberty' with 20mm and 40mm shells. At 1431hrs an Israeli torpedo hit the 'Liberty' midship, precisely where the signals intelligence systems were located. Twenty-five more Americans died.
Israeli gunboats circled the wounded 'Liberty,' firing at crewmen trying to fight the fires. At 1515, the crew were ordered to abandon ship. The Israeli warships closed and poured machine gun fire into the crowded life rafts, sinking two. As American sailors were being massacred in cold blood, a rescue mission by US Sixth Fleet carrier aircraft was mysteriously aborted on orders from the White House.
An hour after the attack, Israeli warships and planes returned. Commander McGonagle gave the order. 'prepare to repel borders.' But the Israelis, probably fearful of intervention by the US Sixth Fleet, departed. 'Liberty' was left shattered but still defiant, her flag flying.
The Israeli attacks killed 34 US seamen and wounded 171 out of a crew of 297, the worst loss of American naval personnel from hostile action since World War II.
Less than an hour after the attack, Israel told Washington its forces had committed a 'tragic error.' Later, Israel claimed it had mistaken 'Liberty' for an ancient Egyptian horse transport. US Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, and Joint Chiefs of Staff head, Admiral Thomas Moorer, insisted the Israeli attack was deliberate and designed to sink 'Liberty.' So did three CIA reports; one asserted Israel's Defense Minister, Gen. Moshe Dayan, had personally ordered the attack.
In contrast to American outrage over North Korea's assault on the intelligence ship 'Pueblo,' Iraq's mistaken missile strike on the USS 'Stark,' last fall's bombing of the USS 'Cole' in Aden, and the recent US-China air incident, the savaging of 'Liberty' was quickly hushed up by President Lyndon Johnson and Defense Secretary Robert McNamara.
The White House and Congress immediately accepted Israel's explanation and let the matter drop. Israel later paid a token reparation of US $6 million. There were reports two Israeli pilots who had refused to attack 'Liberty' were jailed for 18 years.
Surviving 'Liberty' crew members would not be silenced. They kept demanding an open inquiry and tried to tell their story of deliberate attack to the media. Israel's government worked behind the scenes to thwart these efforts, going so far as having American pro-Israel groups accuse 'Liberty's' survivors of being 'anti-Semites' and 'Israel-haters.' Major TV networks cancelled interviews with the crew. A book about the 'Liberty' by crewman James Ennes' was dropped from distribution. The Israel lobby branded him 'an Arab propagandist.'
The attack on 'Liberty' was fading into obscurity until last week, when intelligence expert James Bamford came out with Body of Secrets, his latest book about the National Security Agency. In a stunning revelation, Bamford writes that unknown to Israel, a US Navy EC-121 intelligence aircraft was flying high overhead the 'Liberty,' electronically recorded the attack. The US aircraft crew provides evidence that the Israeli pilots knew full well that they were attacking a US Navy ship flying the American flag.
Why did Israel try to sink a naval vessel of its benefactor and ally? Most likely because 'Liberty's' intercepts flatly contradicted Israel's claim, made at the war's beginning on 5 June, that Egypt had attacked Israel, and that Israel's massive air assault on three Arab nations was in retaliation. In fact, Israel began the war by a devastating, Pearl-Harbor style surprise attack that caught the Arabs in bed and destroyed their entire air forces.
Israel was also preparing to attack Syria to seize its strategic Golan Heights. Washington warned Israel not to invade Syria, which had remained inactive while Israel fought Egypt. Bamford says Israel's offensive against Syria was abruptly postponed when 'Liberty' appeared off Sinai, then launched once it was knocked out of action. Israel's claim that Syria had attacked it could have been disproved by 'Liberty.'
Most significant, 'Liberty's' intercepts may have shown that Israel seized upon sharply rising Arab-Israeli tensions in May-June 1967 to launch a long-planned war to invade and annex the West Bank, Jerusalem, Golan and Sinai.
Far more shocking was Washington's response. Writes Bamford: 'Despite the overwhelming evidence that Israel attacked the ship and killed American servicemen deliberately, the Johnson Administration and Congress covered up the entire incident.' Why?
Domestic politics. Johnson, a man never noted for high moral values, preferred to cover up the attack rather than anger a key constituency and major financial backer of the Democratic Party. Congress was even less eager to touch this 'third rail' issue.
Commander McGonagle was quietly awarded the Medal of Honor for his and his men's heroism – not in the White House, as is usual, but in an obscure ceremony at the Washington Navy Yard. Crew member's graves were inscribed, 'died in the Eastern Mediterranean..' as if they had be killed by disease, rather than hostile action.
A member of President Johnson's staff believed there was a more complex reason for the cover-up: Johnson offered Jewish liberals unconditional backing of Israel, and a cover-up of the 'Liberty' attack, in exchange for the liberal toning down their strident criticism of his policies in the then raging Vietnam War.
Israel, which claims it fought a war of self defense in 1967 and had no prior territorial ambitions, will be much displeased by Bamford's revelations. Those who believe Israel illegally occupies the West Bank and Golan will be emboldened.
Much more important, the US government's long, disgraceful cover-up of the premeditated attack on 'Liberty' has now burst into the open and demands full-scale investigation. After 34 years, the voices of 'Liberty's' dead and wounded seamen must finally be heard.
May 2, 2001
Copyright Eric S. Margolis 2001
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html
August 25, 2009 5:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tintin, I think you missed it, but I was responding to a post about, and talking about, our fellow poster Progressive Conscience.
I was mocking his logic, and jokingly suggesting that he would defend Madoff because the culprit was Jewish.
Same with the Nixon comment. Off limits to Progressive Conscience, I wasn't saying Nixon was off-limits to most or all Jews.
I was mocking Progressive Conscience, not Jews in general. I repeat this just to be clear, since you misread the original post, which referred to Progressive individually.
See this comment by Progressive above:
LousGirl: I'm glad you don't consider yourself to be an anti-Semite. You should consider taking some time to read about the history of anti-Semitism, and I don't think you would then use the kind of language you used in your post any more, since you sound like a very good-hearted person. The language you use in your post is anti-Semitic even if you don't mean it to be.
Lousgirl correctly stated that Israel spies on us, and Progressive states that reading up on the history of anti-Semitism would make her conclude that Israel doesn't spy on us, or pretty much anything bad.
I was applying that logic to Kissinger, to mock Progressive Conscience, an individual poster, not Jews in general.
I added M.J. and his 5,999,999 logic to the post because it's ironic that Progressive Conscience and M.J. both use similar logic to deflect criticism of Jews or Israel, despite their consistent disagreements about much else.
Do you get where I'm coming from now?
And speaking of the Holocaust and scholarship, I recently saw a couple documentaries that are sure to raise your eyebrows, if you are open to scholarship on this delicate subject and not prone to emotional outbursts at any reassessment of it.
This one is by a courageous Jewish kid, David Cole, who visited Auschwitz in 1992 after studying the Holocaust for some time. Let me know the flaws of this documentary, because I don't want to believe lies:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-741565070797208303&ei=dSyUSt6cDYWyrgKPsZ2eDw&q=david+cole+auschwitz
Our numbers of Holocaust victims come largely from the KGB, which originally said that 4,000,000 were killed at Auschwitz. Are they credible?
Look at the fallout shelter at Auschwitz that supposedly served as the main gas chamber, before being "reconverted" to a fallout shelter, before the KGB installed ceiling holes to "replicate" the holes where the Germans poured the gas from.
The Allies had little reason to get an accurate count, and every reason to make the Germans look as bad as possible. The Zionists had no reason question the KGB claims either, and the Nuremberg Trials were less than the model of justice we are told to believe they were.
Also, as Russ Baker writes in "Family of Secrets," deals were cut with Nazi war criminals, whereby they would confess to extra-heinous crimes at Nuremberg, and in exchange the U.S. would take them into the C.I.A., and protect them from prosecution by shuttling them off to South America after the CIA was done with them.
I don't know if the Butcher of Leon was one of these guys who exaggerated his testimony, but he certainly was protected, employed, and escorted to South America afterward.
I'll send you another documentary about Triblanka and the Nuremberg trials if you are actually interested in this subject.
And I strongly invite you to point out the flaws in David Cole's documentary, which forced him into hiding afterward.
Thanks in advance.
August 25, 2009 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ironic that you called me a Larouche fan for linking to the same website you did, whatreallyhappened.com
Anthrax attacks, USS Liberty, and 9/11 are three birds of a feather, designed to draw the U.S. into the Mid East for profit and Israel.
August 25, 2009 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
LousGirl: I'm glad you don't consider yourself to be an anti-Semite. You should consider taking some time to read about the history of anti-Semitism, and I don't think you would then use the kind of language you used in your post any more, since you sound like a very good-hearted person. The language you use in your post is anti-Semitic even if you don't mean it to be - it is very similar to language used by the worst anti-Semites - you don't want to be in their company, trust me.
August 24, 2009 9:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Please, how was her language Anti-Semitic?
August 24, 2009 10:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
progressive conscience is the final arbitrator of all that is considered progressive and all that is considered anti-semitic. his word is final. bow.
i was a jew in a former lifetime. in that lifetime i was what would now be considered a self-hating jew, though that term was not in currency then. through my buddhist connections from other lifetimes, i decided in the bardo state to be reincarnated in this lifetime as a catholic with an intact penis.
August 24, 2009 10:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seeing you bully and chastise so many people tonight has me feeling nauseous. Are you a progressive, or are you a concern troll?
Your comments read like a Bill O'Reilly intern writing satire of what the liberal nanny state would say about, oh, anything. I'm so tired of concerned liberals hushing and/or coaching everyone as to the correctness of their speech.
"getting their asses kicked in the war" may not be the most apropos language to describe one of the worst genocides ever, but it's not a slur against Jews or other Semitic people to describe horrors in short-hand.
Maybe you were responding to comparing AIPAC to the Mafia? It is an inaccurate comparison, and one I don't agree with, but it's lousgirl84's opinion. Do you honestly think it puts him/her in league with "the worst anti-Semites"? If so, leave the rarefied air of your hothouse and get a whiff of the smog-filled reality of free speech.
August 24, 2009 11:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
progressive conscience can't tell the difference between being offended and anti-semitism.
August 24, 2009 11:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sorry if the "getting their asses kicked" offended so many, but they literally were getting them kicked when we stepped in to their war.
It baffles me why one cannot have a negative opinion of Israel without being labeled an anti-semite.
August 25, 2009 1:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Has there ever been a thread in which "Progressive Conscience" didn't make accusations of anti-Semitism?
And yet the man, like all Jews (including me) is a walking caldron of anti-Christianity! First of all, he refuses, just downright won't accept Christ's Word,and His Saving Power, and call Him Lord! What's up with that, Progressive?
You gonna face you Maker all unshriven and unannealed?
And Mr. Conscience holds the intrinsically anti-Christian position that Christians, (by virtue of their majority and sacrifices building this country, and God's word) should not
August 24, 2009 11:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
be America's first citizens, and those who reject Christ (that's the Jews, folks) should be second-class citizens. Why should Jews get rights and privileges that Christians don't?
So we can assume, that as a good Zionist, Progressive Conscience supports a Christian America, and a Christian Theocracy for America.
Or aren't Christians as good as us Jews? Maybe they are not entitled to their own Christian country, like us Jews are?
August 24, 2009 11:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ha! Progressive probably labeled attacks on Bernie Madoff anti-Semitic, until he found out most of the victims were Jewish.
Henry Kissinger? Off limits - read some books about historical anti-Semitism. It'll prove that no Jew is greedy, conspiratorial, murderous, or in any way devious.
And as M.J. might chime in, no Jews ever concocted a banking scam together, because that's what Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf.
and don't ever say the number 5,999,999. It's more evil than 666, and is equal to zero.
August 25, 2009 1:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bill, you really are a racist. Have you gone to any town meetings weeping that "I've lost my country."
Because you have. Praise the Lord.
August 25, 2009 7:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Every once in a while I read something on this post that makes me a little uncomfortable, but only one person consistently voices vile and hateful garbage.
Thank you billwalker, you never disappoint!
9/11 Truth man!
August 25, 2009 9:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
The evidence is becoming so overwhelming on 9/11 that you just look like a child, hiding in a dream to avoid a depressing reality.
And you really think the anthrax case was as tidy as the FBI made it out to be? The logistics of the accusations of the "suicided" scientist don't even make sense, and both Sen. Leahy and Sen. Grassley agree.
You live in a fantasy world constructed by media subdivisions of conglomerates ultimately owned by the kings of Wall St.
Do you think the NY Times is progressive? Read this column from early 2003 by Executive Editor Bill Keller, titled Why Colin Powell Should Go:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/22/opinion/22KELL.html
You think Judith Miller getting front page real estate to spread lies about Iraqi WMD was an accident?
August 25, 2009 11:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
The martians are coming!
The martians are coming!
August 25, 2009 2:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
The A-Rabs are coming! the A-Rabs are coming!
August 25, 2009 2:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
We both strongly wanted Obama to win. We both sang hallelujah at his vague and sometimes specific campaign promises.
And yet you consider it unpatriotic to question him when he turns back on those promises and principles, when he makes sure Bush enjoys a worry free retirement in Houston, when John Yoo can carry on with his academic career.
I know you suspect Cheney knew something about 9/11 before it happened. You've said as much, a couple times.
You're smart enough know that Cheney's record of pure evil that started in the p.m. of 9/11 likely didn't start then.
And yet you defend Obama as he keeps all these guys safe and secure. A torture investigation? Only for underlings.
Catch up on your Greenwald, because you seem to have slacked off in that department since Obama got elected and your man crush took over all (most, you make a few good points like here about Bibi) sense of reality and patriotic priorities.
It's about policy, not personality. Do you still believe Obama is committed to a strong public option?
Did you believe Bush when he said he hoped to avoid war with Iraq?
Should I add Progressive to the list of Jews who can't be criticized without being anti-Semitic?
Why not throw Obama in there. One more layer of protection for your Precious.
August 25, 2009 11:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
Here are my thoughts, Bill:
Ha! Progressive probably labeled attacks on Bernie Madoff anti-Semitic, until he found out most of the victims were Jewish.
Tintin: No, they did not. I haven't read anyone, including Bernie's sons, who've defended him. Moreover, it was known IMMEDIATELY that most of his victims were Jews. MJ even posted to that effect.
Henry Kissinger? Off limits - read some books about historical anti-Semitism. It'll prove that no Jew is greedy, conspiratorial, murderous, or in any way devious.
Tintin: Surely you jest. The amount that's been written critical of Henry the K is large. The question has NEVER been whether there are greedy, etc., Jews. The prophets wrote plenty about greedy and otherwise immoral Jews. There have always been. The question is whether their Jewishness is to blame for their greediness. Jew-therefore-greedy is the anti-Semitic position.
And as M.J. might chime in, no Jews ever concocted a banking scam together, because that's what Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf.
Tintin: Again, you don't get the nature of the argument. It is NOT that no Jews do bad things individually or with other Jews. It is whether their Jewishness is at fault or whether Jews control the world for the benefit of the Jewish people or Israel. See the diff?
and don't ever say the number 5,999,999. It's more evil than 666, and is equal to zero.
Tintin: Bill, you're twirling. Disputes over the number killed in the Holocaust are perfectly fine if they are an attempt to get at the truth. Raul Hilberg, I believe, once put it at 5.1 million or thereabouts--but he had a scholarly intent. Others who question "the number" do so as full-blown or quasi Holocaust deniers or downplayers or to make an end-run around one of the foundational reasons for the creation of the state of Israel. Uncle Mahmoud falls into this category, and these people are most definitely anti-Semitic.
August 25, 2009 1:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tintin you're wasting your time.
To quote the honorable gentleman Barney Frank: "having a conversation with bill walker would be like arguing with a dining room table."
August 25, 2009 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Like a child hiding in a dream world to avoid a depressing reality, you are:
Start here, sonny:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident#Ongoing_controversy_and_unresolved_questions
“I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. . . . Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous.
- Former US Secretary of State Dean Rusk[50]
"The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack, which killed 34 American sailors and injured 172 others, was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew. Each evening, after hearing testimony all day, we often spoke our private thoughts concerning what we had seen and heard. I recall Admiral Kidd repeatedly referring to the Israeli forces responsible for the attack as 'murderous bastards.' It was our shared belief, based on the documentary evidence and testimony we received first hand, that the Israeli attack was planned and deliberate, and could not possibly have been an accident."
- Captain Ward Boston, JAGC, U.S. Navy, senior counsel for the Court of Inquiry
Spector's assertion about the absence of a US flag on Liberty is contradicted by every single one of the Liberty's survivors. This fact is confirmed by one of the declassified NSA documents which concludes that, "Every official interview of numerous Liberty crewmen gave consistent evidence that indeed the Liberty was flying an American flag - and, further, the weather conditions were ideal to ensure its easy observance and identification."
August 25, 2009 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
The headline sounded ironic, like something from the Onion. But I guess the Karl Rove is still framing the debate because TPM thinks that health care really could be Obama's Waterloo.
August 25, 2009 12:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bib may be thinking he is getting at Obama, but he does not realize there is a tectonic shift in the American psyche that no longer wants to just play games in the ME. Europe long ago realized right wing parties in Israel are not interested in peace but in colonialism (Europeans had done it they know it when they see it). The blind support for Greater Israel and obliteration of Palestine is dwindling here in America.
Bibi can choose to be an international stateman pursuing serious peace negotiations or he can play 'tough' guy of the local boys league.
August 25, 2009 7:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Some facts can't be fixed by public relations. See http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/ghost-of-the-warsaw-ghetto-says-i-was-scrounging-for-scrap-metal-when-they-killed-me.html
August 25, 2009 12:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good read, MJ. HOPE is the last to die.
August 25, 2009 9:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
getting back to the gist of MJ's post, a us president politically weak to act in settling the IP conflict is part of the rope-a-dope that israel is playing. a strong obama presidency is an impediment. israel needs the time to implement it's own two state solution. one state is for the secular jews and the other state is for the religious-settler jews.
what about the palestinians? as livni said, their national aspirations should lie elsewhere. and where would that be? jordan. in june 2009, 53 knesset members passed a draft resolution saying that jordan is the official alternative home for the palestinians. of course, king abdullah of jordan is not having any part of it. meanwhile, the PA authority is saying that they will forego failing peace talks and in two years will unilaterally declare their own state.
a weak obama is necessary to israel's right wing plans. all they have to do, they believe, is to wait it out until another more sympathetic us president is elected. too bad because a genuine peace process would bring about an explosion of good will in the middle east and the world and economic activity would burgeon in the area.
August 25, 2009 11:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
If the PA had any real leadership, they would resist the occupation by non-cooperation. When Gaza was being raped, some Israeli officials braised Abbas for "controlling" the reaction among his people.
In every Gulug, someone cooperates with the guards.
August 25, 2009 12:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
America has a long tradition of one term presidencies for critics of Israel. Ask Jimmy Carter and Bush 41.
The big money backers of AIPAC could foil an Obama presidency in any number of ways, like M.J. astutely points out about health care.
And the political futures of Rahm and Axelrod would be greatly compromised if they were part of an aggressive Obama peace effort.
I'm all for rooting for an underdog, but I'll believe Obama plans to really take on Israel when I see it.
If I was an ambitious president, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. And since Obama turned his back on his sky high initial approval ratings, it doesn't look like he's prepping the public to join him in this fight.
August 25, 2009 12:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bill,
In general, I think Obama has three relative strengths: 1) compared to the abysmal quality of most U.S. politicians in recent years, a normal intelligent common sense guy seems like Superman, (2) he is a good speaker, one of the best in American history which again places him light years above the run-of-the-mill today, and (3) he is a natural-born peace-maker.
The mother of all peace deals is Israel-Palestine. A toughie, but not impossible, provided common sense prevails. And common sense proclaims most thunderously that step one is to liberate Israel and America from the strangehold of the settlers.
Obama's difficulty is that he has taken on a real job, a big one, and a very broad one, while his opponents in this particular matter focus only on their own narrow and twisted obsession.
Obama is tall, handsome and nimble. The settlers are fat, ugly, and crude. But, he has to pass, dribble, and shoot, and they only need keep slobbering on the court by leaning in from out-of-bounds.
August 25, 2009 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good post.
August 25, 2009 5:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd really like to think you're right, PTroub.
But Obama's biggest weakness as I see it so far is that he won't force a powerful lobby to give more than an inch, and then only with future promises of taking a mile.
Obama didn't even stand up to the coal industry.
And while his opponents may be focused on a narrow, twisted obsession, their tentacles are very far reaching.
There's a reason guys like Alan Derschowitz are so supremely confident in their ability to crush outspoken critics of Israel. They are connected to powerful allies in the upper ranks of every major industry.
A vast conspiracy? Even M.J. only speaks out because he's in his 60's and financially secure.
But I'll hope you are right, regardless, support Obama 100% in his peace efforts.
But I'm not going to support a watered down health bill, and I'm not going to support a watered down Roadmap to Peace.
We're already on a roadmap to change, and it's feeling like a treadmill.
August 25, 2009 6:17 PM | Reply | Permalink