Pre-Existing Conditions
Jonathan Cohn, who succeeded in bring an unforced smile to the faux-grave face of Stephen Colbert the other night, brings a grim look to my own with this urgent blog about what he rightly calls "The Swiftboating of Health Reform." Everyone should read it. Right now.
Could it be that the crazies--them with their "Death Panels" and "Doctor Deaths" and government takeovers of Medicare--are winning?
What with a USA Today/Gallup poll that finds 34% of "adults" on Tuesday saying that town-hall demonstrations "have made them more sympathetic to the protesters' views; 21% say they are less sympathetic," it's big-worry time. (David Axelrod's attempt to explain away these numbers with a technical objection, cited in Susan Page's USAT piece, I don't find convincing.)
The combination of insurance lobbyist money and have-gun-will-travel thugs and shout-down artists (see Adele Stan's exposé) has pumped new enragé energy into the wacko desperados who are an apparently permanent feature of the landscape--not only in America, by the way, which distinguishes itself with the demonization of health care rights, but in every so-called advanced country (with respect to immigration and other hot-button numbers).
These institutions and their mobs suffer from pre-existing conditions, all right: greed and ignorance, much of it willful. The value added to national health by insurance companies is approximately nil, after all. Last time I looked, the right to cherry-pick healthy people was not one of the sanctioned prerequisites for "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
Time to pull out the stops, White House. Time for stadium rallies. Time for mass peaceable clamor. Time to flood TV with truth-telling ads. Past time.
Are you talking about the $150 million in lobbyist money pledged to promote Obamacare?
August 13, 2009 11:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
What. Ever (Yeah, $150 million... oooh, so SCARY, boys and girls! The health care industry spent that much, today, on fucking LUNCH... :-P).
The real story here is the revelation a day or so ago, that the lobbies, delighted by the results of the Moron Mobs, intend to use this tactic again on climate change legislation... and whatever comes next (I am envisioning future mobs of yelling and weeping goobers, showing up on TV and totally losing their shit over some arcane legislation that 99% of us have never heard of. Pretty soon, there'll be a name for this: "Monday"!)
So let's look at what this means:
When the corporatist right held the WH and Congress, they ran roughshod over the US by virtue of their electoral dominance...
When their electoral dominance faded, they just segued to mob rule.
Meaning that: Our Constitutional system of a democratic republic is a fucking joke to these people. They just use whatever means necessary to dominate us, and if that isn't the American electoral system... so what?
That is a bigger-picture story, than just "health care". This really and truly is fascism. We're there.
August 13, 2009 2:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, we're not quite at fascism yet if you believe Sara Robinson, who says we're technically still on the road to fascism, its just that we've already pulled into the parking lot, found a place, but not turned off the engine yet.
August 13, 2009 10:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Read the Stan piece. The $150 million you mention (actually $12 million up front, with "as much as $150 million" to come, according to the Politico piece I assume you're referring to) is (a) hypothetical, (b) catch-up.
August 13, 2009 11:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
They simply don't care about the truth! They just want to invent nastiness and spread it around!
It's so easy to lie. And liars can just keep inventing things. Whereas the truth has only one story to tell. And the problem, in my view, is that we all just get weary of having to defend the obvious! Against the nonsensical!
Thanks for the link and the post. What we need is an infusion of SENSE in the public at large. But these folks are paranoid. They'd avoid the infusion!
August 13, 2009 11:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
What is the truth? What is the health care reform effort intended to accomplish?
August 13, 2009 12:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
The stated goals are:
1)Reduce long-term growth of health care costs for businesses and government; 2) Protect families from bankruptcy or debt because of health care costs 3)Guarantee choice of doctors and health plans 4)Invest in prevention and wellness 4)Improve patient safety and quality of care 5) Assure affordable, quality health coverage for all Americans 6) Maintain coverage when you change or lose your job 7)End barriers to coverage for people with pre-existing medical conditions.
I agree with Todd that those goals have gotten drowned out by discussions of fictitious death panels. It would be more productive to have discussions on why the goals are the right/wrong way to go or debates on how we reach those goals, but that seems difficult to do when people are using this time to shout out lies.
August 13, 2009 12:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oops, numbering got off; I knew I was going to do that; hey, I'm a writer not a mathematician ;).
August 13, 2009 12:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
There's probably only a handful of ravers and ranters at the town meetings who are specifically against health-care reform.
To use your word 'paranoid' what they're paranoid about is government involvement (in anything.) Reagan planted the poison tree when he declared the government as the 'problem' not the solution and it's grown to the point where it seems to cover most of the middle of this country.
Listen to the rants peppered with stuff like 'socialism,' 'be like Russia,' 'death-panels,' and it's clear that the shouters are scared shitless of government power for any reason in any form. (Except when it comes to wire-tapping etc. in the name of national security which definitely punches holes in their supposedly justified fear.)
(I mean, how non-sensical is it to believe that the insurance syndicate has your best interests at heart when it comes to paying out money for your health care.)
August 13, 2009 12:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
People are simply wrapping themselves in the Constitution because they can't say what is really on their minds...you know, that a black guy is President.
August 13, 2009 1:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I totally agree. They're the xenophobes who always come out of hiding when witches are being hunted and hung in Salem or the Klan needs recruits or HUAC is staging a Red scare. Obama definitely qualifies in any category.
August 13, 2009 1:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, I agree. It's paranoia in general. Not specific to health care. It's an attitude they're using to oppose anything at all! To simply disrupt the political process. IMVHO....
August 13, 2009 1:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Willful ignorance? I don't think so. The GOP leaders are engaging in willful deception, the press is enabling it by deference to the GOP, and the poor mob accepts what it is told. As long as the press presents the GOP as a respectable party rather than a wholy corrupt institution, and as long as the GOP leaders engage in inflammatory talk of Nazism, feed conspiracies about manchurian candidates and plans for genocide, what are the people supposed to do? There is a certain social division of cognitive labor where the population defers to their traditional elite, and that elite is brainwashing them.
August 13, 2009 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm now completely in favor of getting rid of Medicare and Social Security. If all Americans can't have healthcare because some old fogies are being irritated by change, then screw the old fogies.
If you don't want social programs, then you don't get social programs. Plain and simple.
"Keep the Guvmint outta my Medicare!" - Fine!
August 13, 2009 12:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm so pissed off I've gotten to the point where I'd relish it if the obstructionists to reform all had their premiums tripled tomorrow or were denied coverage due to a pre-existing condition or had their employers drop their coverage so they had to pay out-of-pocket or had to watch a comatose granny waste away to nothing because she had no living will - or all of the above.
August 13, 2009 1:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agree!
August 13, 2009 1:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
While I don't want to get called a nasty name or insulted, can I ask you a question about insurance companies & pre-exisiting conditions? How can you expect an insurance company to accept a new risk that comes to them with $1500 a month in prescriptions and expects to only pay $250 a month in premium? This is a TOUGH situation, but why is the insurance company the BAD guy? They are immediately taking on a HUGE loss and for what benefit? It is a for-profit business and they have families to feed too. If they accept every risk with pre-exisiting conditions, than that loss will be spread out to everyone. Now MY premium will have to go up and I'm healthy?? I don't mean that I don't sympathize, but I don't see the insurance companies as the MEANIES...
August 14, 2009 6:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
ohyeah,
I'm an old fogie and I'm completely pissed off that so many other fogies are so uninformed, so misinformed, so frikkin shallow, and so easily led that I'm starting to think euthanasia isn't such a bad idea.
August 13, 2009 3:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
These institutions and their mobs suffer from pre-existing conditions, all right: greed and ignorance, much of it willful.
Yeah, it's all them stupid and greedy people. How does that help? The point of a political analysis is to identify what needs to be changed to get ahead. If you asked a general "Why are we losing the war" and the answer were "because of the enemy," what would you do?
The industry is defending its profits. It is doing it by mobilizing an angry reactionary subsection of the U.S., and it is helped by a pro-capital media.
Not only we know that, but we knew that even before the battle was engaged. What did you expect, that all those who earn rent from the venality of the health care system would roll over at the sight of His Progressiveness? Did you expect those politically invested in rolling back the New Deal to suddenly decide that Sweden is the way of the future?
What's the point of post after post about how dreadful and shameless these townhall thugs are? What does it accomplish? Except making an excuse for failure. Is that the goal?
Here the problem. The Obama administration is working overtime to demobilize its base. Why? go figure. I guess is because they don't want anything too radical. But who cares, really? And here's the other problem. Liberal groups are rolling over, because good relations with the White House take priority.
We are talking about the heart of oligarchy here, not some sideway issue, but its core, the very principle that people come after profit is at stake. There has never been a major victory for the people on this front since the end of the Vietnam War. That's how entrenched the system is.
The precondition of winning here is mass mobilization. The opposition, obviously, is ready to mobilize at any cost. Obama and the Dems will not mobilize their base because, truth to tell, they are afraid of their base. They know that once they start serving the people, we might get used to it, we might demand more, we might not settle for the crumbs they think should be enough for us.
Hence, there is no clear flag to rally for, not even a clear health care proposal. The opposition stands for profits at any cost. Obama and the democratic leadership stands for mush. Nobody is going to fight for mush.
August 13, 2009 12:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I found the first part of your post refreshing, as I, too, am getting really tired of some variation of "the bad mans was mean to me, mommy" here and on sites like the Huff Post.
You had me down through this:
"Yeah, it's all them stupid and greedy people. How does that help? The point of a political analysis is to identify what needs to be changed to get ahead. If you asked a general "Why are we losing the war" and the answer were "because of the enemy," what would you do?
The industry is defending its profits. It is doing it by mobilizing an angry reactionary subsection of the U.S., and it is helped by a pro-capital media.
Not only we know that, but we knew that even before the battle was engaged. What did you expect, that all those who earn rent from the venality of the health care system would roll over at the sight of His Progressiveness? Did you expect those politically invested in rolling back the New Deal to suddenly decide that Sweden is the way of the future?
What's the point of post after post about how dreadful and shameless these townhall thugs are? What does it accomplish? Except making an excuse for failure. Is that the goal?"
Then your policy suggestions go right off the cliff of bitterness.
I'm not saying you're totally wrong about Obama's response so far, and the entrenched oligarchy and all that. But I simply don't share your gloomy and demoralized view that all is going down to utter ruin, and that the only solution is some sort of (pretty vague) mass mobilization.
Gee. Sounds like the Vietnam protests all over again to me.
What your argument fails to take into account is that it's ALWAYS harder to defend a mishmosh of half-baked proposals typed into 3-4 as-yet unresolved congressional drafts of parts of the whole. It's always easier to yell and scream and poop your pants and scare grandma, while proposing nothing real in return, if as you say, your goal is to derail, delay or otherwise prevent a reform that will cut profits to the profligate insurance industry.
What would your organizing theme be for these glorious and noble events you envision? How would they be anything but the flip side of Bubba yelling at a congressperson on TV?
I'm sick to death of the feeble whining about all the stupid bad people on the other side. Fact is, they're not all stupid (not more than most people, anyway). And most of them aren't bad. They're misinformed and scared, lots of them. They've been lied to so long that they never ever stop to think that it's being done again.
If someone's afraid that you're going to take away what little they have, they'll fight like hell. And raising the heat only scares them more, and makes them fight even harder.
August 13, 2009 2:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lucid and Intelligent. Nice Post.
August 13, 2009 8:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
couple of points:
First, of course it is easier to prevent change than to bring it about. That is however a curious basis for arguing that the change party need to put less effort into it than the status quo party. That has nothing to do however with "complexity" of the issue. The job of leadership is to articulate a clear agenda on the basis of which a coalition can unite. People are often inarticulate but rarely stupid. Lack of clarity is either the result of lack of leadership, or the result of an attempt to unite forces that has no real basis for unity. I suspect it is the second. Obama is going for a "reform" that doesn't disturb the principle that profits come before people. He is seeking an alliance of the wolf and the lamb and such an alliance cannot have a clear agenda. When the lamb asks the wolf "what's for dinner tonight", the only possible answer is "it's complicated."
I cannot argue with you not sharing the gloom. We will see who is right. But I don't exactly see what is vague about mobilization. First, mobilizing people doesn't necessarily means shouting like the robothugs. It means recognizing the level at which the policy making process, all of it, is captured by corporatism. Expecting this process by itself to produce something different is insane. The strength of any attempt to change it will come from using popular legitimacy against it. And that cannot happen without people being involved and energized and visible.
Good question, taking aside the snide part about glorious and noble. I prefer loud and noisy. The organizing theme should be a set of demands that unites and mobilize a large popular coalition: first of all, universal, affordable, quality healhtcare. We can start with themes such as "people before profits", "affordable, quality healthcare is a civil right." "Grandma is not a profit center." "If the U.S is a rich country, why can't I afford seeing a physician." etc. Why isn't Obama surrounded with five nurses all the time, giving example after example of how the system serves profits and fails people?
What is wrong with yelling at a Rep.? Americans have a very low opinion of Congress for very good reasons. Congress deserves it. When reps and senators refuse to serve us, yelling at them is part of an array of useful tools, which also includes talking calmly with reps. Why does a majority among polled think the tactics of the protesters are legitimate? Because they are legitimate. Because there is a pool of anger out there that is much larger than the far right. But the far right taps it and you are afraid of it. A progressive coalition must tap into that legitimate anger and channel it in the direction of reform. Why are you scared of anger? Have you read Thomas Paine? Have you listened to MLK?
August 14, 2009 7:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
My God that was well said. Spot on
August 13, 2009 11:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with those who express amazement that the Dems didn't expect the kind of opposition and tactics in play by Repubs and their corporate sponsors. How could they not?
Sadly, I believe that Obama and his administration as well as Dems have played right into the hands of the opposition because of the extremely poor roll-out of the healthcare reform process and programs.
No, that doesn't excuse or give any kudos to the demented Bully Brigade spreading the vile rhetoric, but it has sure made it easier for them to do so....
Seriously, cannot comprehend their gasps of 'OMG, just so shocked!' at being hip deep in the muddy slime being shoveled after being repeatedly slammed around by the same mud stained hands using the same type of body blows time and again.
August 13, 2009 12:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agree completely, Aunt Sam, the Bully Brigade is mad, they are ready to strike out at anyone. Anyone that is but George W. Bush.
They are victims of PDST, Post-Dubya-Stress-Disorder. Its caused by eight years of failure and incompetence by their conquering hero. And the result, lost homes and jobs, and two unfinished wars.
And it was fully expected the corporate executives who masquerade as news reporters, and the big health insurance money, would want to let the Brigade vent their anger at Democrats. The Bush Base, being hardcore Republicans, would not direct their anger at the abusive paternal leader and the GOP. No, like a kid that gets beaten at home by Dad, they go looking for someone in the schoolyard to bully.
August 13, 2009 12:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
I too am amazed that the administration seems to have been blindsided by the kind of reaction they've got from the right wing.
We all knew it was coming and we knew how crazy it would be. We saw the level of 'debate' among the Republicans last year. We saw their juvenile and pointless teabagging shenanigans this year. It was entirely predictable. So why was the administration caught offguard?
I'm glad they seem to be starting to play catchup now, but it's very late in the day and the loonies have had weeks to define what the debate (such as it is) is about.
August 13, 2009 3:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
You make it sound like attending a political rally is a bad thing?? I'm a "tea-bagger" because I want an avenue to disagree or want my American voice to be heard? But I'm sure I misunderstood what you were meant by teabagger...
August 14, 2009 6:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
I know it is an old saw, you know, "Two things you don't want to watch being made--law, and sausage," but there's a dilemma here. On the one hand, we want transparency and "open government" and I think the President has tried to fulfill that promise--at least as far as health care reform is concerned. On the other hand--making law in public may be a little like making love in public...the process has its awkward and ridiculous side, (where do those arms and legs go?)...it may get a little emotional, and there may be even a little blood on the sheets. Perhaps it shouldn't be done in public after all.
Yet we've had eight years of rule by fiat and in secret, and we tried putting a fully polished health plan together behind closed doors in the 1990s. The first example was a disaster for us all: the second, well, it didn't work.
So, all told, I'm willing to risk a messy, awkward sometimes contradictory roll-out, and grit my teeth and swallow anti-acids until the process reaches its conclusion. When it is over, we'll be able to look backward and see separate the real missteps from the seeming missetps, hopefully to avoid the second when the next reform (education? financial regulation?) moves to center stage.
Right now I see splits, interesting ones, with $150,000,000.00 (looks bigger with numbers) shelled out for health care reform by two parties which opposed it fifteen years ago or so. Who would have thought to see the AMA and the SEIU working the same side of the aisle? Noe me, not in my lifetime.
So I'm not ready to sign on to "abandon hope, all ye who enter here," and I like sausage enough to still like it even when I see what it's made of--maybe I'll feel the same way about the legislation which ultimately passes.
August 13, 2009 3:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
amike,
Of course I am hopeful and am still a strong Obama Supporter.
That said, I personally am disappointed in the disjointed and non-cohesive manner this has been put forth.
I still believe it would have been better to issue specific points and let them react and enact in response - instead of giving them grist for their own greasy, unheathly sausage rolls mill!
And there would be no secret recipe allegations!
August 13, 2009 3:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama will get a bill through, I also agree with Fred M. on his many posts that it will be the biggest and most important health legislation in decades.
August 13, 2009 4:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Pew
August 13, 2009 1:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am completely stunned that 61% find the town hall protests appropriate. Is it me that is out of touch with reality?
August 13, 2009 1:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
'Reality' for too many who choose to be ignorant is what the MSM tells them!
Therefore, their sense of what's real/true is just as skewed as all who choose to be ignorant. And make no mistake, it is a choice - doesn't matter whether it's due to laziness, apathy or personal agenda. Political sloth allows them to remain in their comfort zone!
I would much rather join you in your realm of reality. Better conversation and options.
August 13, 2009 1:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Time to pull out the stops, White House. Time for stadium rallies. Time for mass peaceable clamor. Time to flood TV with truth-telling ads. Past time.
Time to get bills to a conference committee
Time to shut down Circus Baucus
August 13, 2009 1:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's time for Obama to proffer a short list of mandates for healthcare reform legislation. Clear and concise points that leave no room for mish mash of facts. K.I.S.S.
And please, no more mountains of legislative paper - if the bill can't be said in 50 pages or less - then it's a group grope set to implode!
August 13, 2009 1:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Aunt Sam, Did you see the stuff that came out this afternoon from the Whitehouse? I think it's the most clear to date (still could be shortened, but still a lot better). Here's a link: http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-insurance-consumer-protections/?e=11&ref=hicp. There was more in the e-mail from Axelrod, but this is the crux of it.
August 13, 2009 6:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama's first mistake was thinking he could make a deal with the pharma and insurance greedhead$. They lied to him and if he and his people don't realize it we are way screwed. While he thought they could be bought off with a promise to not ask for more than $80 billion (?) in cuts they were organizing their goons and sending out the fear squads. It's time for the admimintration to call the liars, liars. He has the podium, he has to use it. No more mister nice-guy. F them.
Always remember the silent commandment for all repugs (you don't think insurance and pharma exec aren't repugs?) is, "It's all about the Benjamins."
August 13, 2009 1:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is over. The problem is not
Obama's "mistake," but the very nature of his administration. The core of its politics, dealmaking, compromise, appealing to the vultures to be nicer and gentler instead of confronting them.
This is over. The healthcare reform will end in a "compromise" that Obama will hail as a "difficult, unsatisfactory but nevertheless important" victory, using his inimitable "grown-up" shtick. The liberals at the media and move-on and dailykos will then sell it to their base as the best deal that could be gotten under the circumstances. But most people will get the memo, there is no change. And if any change can ever happen, only the extreme right has the tools for doing it.
That will be the result.
August 13, 2009 1:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
The healthcare reform will end in a "compromise"
Gee "compromise" whodda thunk it? Compromise as an outcome of government
August 13, 2009 1:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, compromise is the outcome of political struggle.
Whereas, "compromise" is the outcome of "political struggle".
August 13, 2009 1:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
As far as I can recall, Obama never said he was going to confront anyone over anything. All he ever said was that he would be the fulfillment of Baby Boomer political narcissism. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. In five to ten years we'll be right back here, and the Baby Boomers will settle for another "compromise." But, then again, why shouldn't they? They know they have the power to kick the can down the road (translation: pass the costs on to following generations) for at least another 20 years. When the tab comes due they'll mostly be dying--with or wihtout the assistance of a federal panel.
August 13, 2009 1:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nope, we won't be exactly where we are now. Obama is destroying the last remnants of very idea that the world can be made a better place with progressive ideas and reason.
We are going to be in similar (probably worse) rot, but the guy/gal who will be making people giddy and optimistic about "change" will speak the language of Palin.
August 13, 2009 1:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Museum of Natural History tour, sometime in the distant future:
"And here, boys and girls, we see the mirror image of the tea party right; the uncompromising left. The fact that all the fossils we find of either species are paired skeletons, both sets of jaws eternally locked on to the opposite throats, is probably the only explanation we need for their mutual extinction"
Feh
August 13, 2009 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
distant future, heh?
didn't that guy say the "end of history" is here, no more silly, extreme demand for change, but liberal democracy, whatever that means, for ever, everywhere? Didn't he say that already in 1992?
Thanks for allowing us to exist until "the distant future".
August 14, 2009 6:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Head in anus
August 13, 2009 1:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
August 13, 2009 1:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Stable Quality Care is gonna do it. Especially with partners like PhRMA and the AMA. NOT!
We have a few friends who are MD's who don't belong to the AMA because they say it only represents the most conservative of their profession. And remember what dealing with turncoat Billy T did at the beginning of this mess. I trust the SEIU but that's about it.
Compromise is no longer on the table. Not with PhRMA, Blue Cross Dogs ot any of that ilk because the target keeps moving to the greedhead$.
August 13, 2009 1:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am making an urgent plea to Mr Gitlin, TPM, and all other people desirous of truth....
You have to understand that this is PURE MEDIA INVENTION.
If it were not for the 24/7 positive coverage of these jackanapes anti-reformers....we would not be in this predicament.
This is not so much about the general stupidity of Americans (although there is plenty of that). This is not about the Dems losing messaging. If this were a level playing field, the Dem message would be fine. What we have here is Corporate Media doing everything they can to trumpet EVERY SINGLE STUPID INANE talking point that can be scraped out of the barrel.
This is pure and simple about WHO OWNS THE MICROPHONES. Who runs the airwaves. No matter HOW GOOOD the messages from Dems, they don't get aired. I agree with Mr Gitlin down the line, until he talks about flooding the airwaves with the truth. The airwaves are not controlled by decent folks, they will not allow the truth on 'their' air. We have already seen how Pro-Reform (and anti-thug) ads are rejected, while every single crazy-ass memo from the Corporate Wing has gotten tremendous air.
We need to discredit the Corporo-Media, not try to play their game.
August 13, 2009 1:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
my pappy used to say, "Don't trust what you read in the newspapers (I'm old and this was quite a while ago) because it takes a lot of money to own a newspaper and all the people with a lot of money are republicans"
Not necessarily OT.
It was interesting that there was no mention of CNBC contacting the deathers about finding a townhall meet with a lot of action on either Keith of Rachel last night.
August 13, 2009 2:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
BTW....townhall meetingw were a stupid idea. We shouldn't be allowing our messaging to be an open invite for whackjobs to come sabatoge something so open and lawless.
You don't get a message out by giving the microphone to the enemy.
August 13, 2009 1:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Other words for the "enemy" you want to silence -- "citizens", "voters", "Americans"
August 13, 2009 8:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, how about enemies as Corporatists, Paid Shills, Misinformed Zombies, Insurance Lobbyists, Disgruntled Former Office Seekers Wives, Big Business, Slave Owners, Healthcare Murderers. How about violent lunatics, armed zealots, and Brownshirts.
August 13, 2009 10:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh and I forgot....I didn't say silence. I just said don't plan a message campaign where you aren't holding the microphone, and your Corporate Opponents can't talk over you. Jeesh, don't the Corporations already own every other microphone, tv camera, and the airwaves?
I said the Townhalls were stupid ideas, not that citizens need to be silenced. The Citizens spoke in Nov, we want (overwhelmingly) Universal Health Care.
August 13, 2009 10:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe the citizens vote wasn't for Universal Health Care, but instead a vote against an old guy who acted erratic and a somewhat nutty VP selection...
August 13, 2009 10:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Now THAT is an intelligent way to build consensus.
August 13, 2009 10:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
The enemy? Other American people who have opposing views? This is the problem...
August 14, 2009 6:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Americans are such idiots! I have no sympathy any more for any of them.
So they don't want health care to be available to everyone? Fine. No health care for Americans!
All of this just goes to show that people do not care about their neighbors, or their community, or even their country (despite all the stupid flag-waving). The Republican mantra of "I got mine and screw you" has taken the day.
August 13, 2009 1:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are so right. People should care about their neighbors.
These idiots just don't understand that this country was founded on the philosophy "From each according to his talents; To each according to his needs"
August 13, 2009 9:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are sooooo wrong, most people do want everyone to have healthcare, I just don't want the government running it.
August 14, 2009 6:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Time to pull out the stops, White House. Time for stadium rallies. Time for mass peaceable clamor. Time to flood TV with truth-telling ads. Past time.
Well said. And I agree it is past time.
We need leadership for a fight like this. We need Obama to stand up and take that leadership.
To do that, he needs to step back himself. Own up the mistake of letting Congress take the heat for the formation of the bill, and the mistake of making a deal with big Pharma.
Then and only then can he do what must be done : Step forward and lead us Progressives in the real fight for reform : squarely in the face of the blood-merchants themselves.
The ONLY reform that will control costs is single payer. Threaten them with the bat of HR 676, and allow those that play ball 10 years to be phased out -- Annihilation for those that resist.
That is the only way it will work. Sitting down to do deals with these murderers is not acceptable, and will fail. Costs will continue to drain the national treasure, and our country will fall.
That is what is a stake, and it will take a real fight to win it.
Otherwise, move to Canada. Take your pick.
August 13, 2009 2:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Geeze. Come on. If we can't see why we're losing this (and I'm not really sure we even are) it's because we can't look at ourselves.
We won a big election. The losers are angry and energized about that, while we are tired and satisfied and expect payoff. We didn't come out to the townhalls, we quit reading the dispatches from Obama, we forgot about that whole "we" in the "we are the people we've been waiting for." Has the message been kind of weak? Yes. Is it too complicated? Yes. Is that the main problem here? Probably not.
The haters want revenge for the election, and for progressivism to suffer a loss. They don't even know or care about healthcare at all, they aren't scared, they aren't even interested. They just want blood. They are backed and amplified by industry, but that's really almost secondary I think.
Obama will take what Obama can get. We're not getting single payer now. What hangs in the balance right now is public option, which is a seed. You can do the whole "what does it matter, Gore and Bush are the same" thing -- help destroy this presidency and embrace the nihilism of the political perfectionists-- or stand up for whatever win we can get now that sets up our onward march. No matter what happens, healthcare reform will take more than a decade and is going to be a messy slugfest, with a lot of rearguard action from the entrenched interests. Get used to it, get ready, and fight!
August 13, 2009 2:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm for stadium rallies. It's time for Obama to turn out some of the 50,000+ crowds he got during the campaign. And if he can't, well, that tells us something, too.
On the legislative side, Grassley has lost his right to negotiate with his stupid deather comments. Just go to reconciliation and bypass the idiots. Maybe Collins and Snowe are gettable, anyway.
August 13, 2009 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree. The insurance industry has attempted --overtly-- to demonize the health care plan. I wonder what would happen if Obama demonized the insurance industry. There are many more people who detest health insurers than doubt birth certificates.
The only thing that the Republicans understand is direct political pain. If O wants to win this, he'd better bring some.
August 13, 2009 2:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
people need to show up at the townhalls etc with sigs that say things like;
'More Bonuses for Insurance Execs'
'I Support Drug Company Gouging'
'Throw Mama from the Train for Insurance Profits'
August 13, 2009 3:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oops, I almost forgot - with a nod to the above poster
'Big Insurance Must Be Obeyed"
August 13, 2009 3:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I sort of wondered how long it would take this thread to turn toward Obama bashing. It actually took a little longer than I thought. He doesn't need many enemies with so many faithful friends.
August 13, 2009 3:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I actually enjoyed your comments, but I'm leaving the site because everyone else simply wants to bash one side or the other, demonize everyone and offer no solutions.
August 14, 2009 6:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have yet to see any of these tea baggers, birthers, disruptors...whatever you call them at these town halls, articulate an informed adult opinion on the issue.
These people are, for the most part, a frikkin mile wide and an inch deep.
The Congressman/Senator running the town hall should invite the loudest of them up on stage for a mini debate/ discussion. It will take about two minutes to make a complete ass out of the dingbat.
Let the rest of them witness this and see if they still want to bellow out loud and risk being invited on stage.
August 13, 2009 3:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Forget the lying Republicans and the crazy militia's and the compliant, fellow traveler corporate media. the fundamental problem is we have another Republican for President who got elected under false pretenses. If we go back to Lyndon Johnson and Medicare we can clearly see what happens when a real Democratic President draws a line in the sand, doesn't give a shit about some fantasy of bipartisanship, twists some arms and uses his muscle to get the bill passed as opposed to using his muscle to shut up the "progressives" in his party. If Obama had played a really constructive role from the beginning these "brownshits" wouldn't even be relevant as the town halls would be being held in the aftermath of a passed set of reform bills.
August 13, 2009 4:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
I attend those meeting and I'm certainly not a "brownshit"! I am an American and I just believe in a different policy. "Brownshits" would be the liberals at George Bush's 2000 Town Hall meeting. I'm SICK of being called names simply because I don't want the government controlling our lives. Have you noticed how they conduct their lives these days? All parties.
August 14, 2009 6:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
RE: the crazies--them with their "Death Panels" and "Doctor Deaths"
MY COMMENT: With all of the Nazi analogies being tossed around, it would not surprise me if "Death Panels" and "Doctor Deaths" morph into "Death Camps". Sickening thought, isn't it?
August 14, 2009 2:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ok, I'm gonna try and comment here without being called any names or crazy.
First of all, I am not for the new Healthcare Bill and let me tell you why. Not because I'm a racist, mobster or terrorist. While I do believe there's alot to be fixed I don't think the government taking over ANYTHING is the right plan. There are many reforms that can be applied to insurance companies PRIOR to the LAST option of letting the government run our Healthcare. The have done a DISMAL job of SS, Medicare and our Veterans care. How can anyone believe they will be efficient with our healthcare?
August 14, 2009 5:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
I came here to discuss the Healthcare Bill and it's provisions. There's no where out there for adult & courteous dialouge. And nothing but name calling and accusations here, are any of YOU reading the bill...
August 14, 2009 6:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
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