Capitol Hill Cowards
Since the beginning of the Reagan era this country has engaged in a deceitful dialog about taxes. It's getting worse not better. Yesterday the House announced a planned surtax on incomes over $500,000 to pay for the Health Care Plan. This is just dumb. Why can't they just raise the top rate back to where it was in 1984? Look at where it was in the 1950's thought of as the golden age of American prosperity.(Chart above)
On Energy, we have the same problem. We are going to try to institute a very complex Cap and Trade system that will be gamed by companies like Enron did, all because we don't have the political courage to impose an energy tax at the source.
Why can't the Democrats realize that Grover Norquist and The Club for Growth are political eunuchs? The American people would rather have simple straight-forward solutions to these problems.
The level of political cowardice in Washington today is mind-boggling.

















Because teh Taxes@! Teh Texas+@
July 15, 2009 11:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
probably.
July 15, 2009 7:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
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March 22, 2011 11:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
I couldn't disagree more with your accusations of political cowardice. Many of our representatives are exhibiting unusual courage these days, as I suggested a few days ago -
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/fredmoolten/2009/07/most-representatives-and-senat.php#comments
I also disagree with your claim that the "American people would rather have simple, steaightforward solutions" to problems - e.g., a carbon tax instead of cap-and-trade. Can you provide evidence for this preference on their part? I see the evidence as indicating the reverse, both here and abroad. This is one reason (among many) that cap-and-trade is preferred to a carbon tax. In much of Europe, taxes are hidden in the form of VATs, again because straightforward solutions tend to be enormously unpopular, and therefore politically suicidal.
July 15, 2009 11:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
You make a good point here. People will not go for taxes straight up, normally. You goota be sneaky about it.
More importantly, if Taplin wants to go back to the tax system of the 1950s, I say Hell to the Yeah!
First all meals and travel are deductible @100% and in addition almost every conceivable human activity came with a tax deduction of some sort.
Even better however, will be Taplin's ALL interest and ALL personal and business loans will also be deductible. Nobody actually paid top rates in those days.
The rich simply set up a scheme to borrow enough money for business and personal needs that the intereast paid nearly zeroed their earned income.
The rich pay a much higher portion of the income tax burden today than they ever did in the days of the 90% rate.
BTW, if dems try anything like the tax increase outlined in the bill released out of committee this week, it will not only fail to win final passage but will endanger their majority in 2010.
July 16, 2009 3:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Political "cowardice"? Huh?
Our elected leaders are doing exactly what they need to do to get themselves re-elected. The fault is our own, we keep electing them.
The cowards are the American people for bending over and taking it up the pooper from an ever more powerful cadre of financial elites and their stooges in politics.
July 15, 2009 11:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
Blah Blah Blah . . .
Just another rant with no solutions put on the table by "Professor" Taplin?
I'm just simply amazed ... NOT!
Maybe he drains his spleen here because his better half at home won't listen to him at the morning coffee table.
~OGD~
July 15, 2009 12:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
The solutions are implicit in the text. Raise the top tax rate and create a carbon tax at the source (wellhead, coal mine, etc),
Duh!
July 16, 2009 10:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think one of the main problems is a single statistic that has been wildly misunderstood and distorted. That would be "the top X% of earners pay Y% of all taxes." First of all, I think arguing against a new tax should be based on how it's going to affect the people its taxing versus how it's going to affect the general population. The fact that the wealthy pay a high percentage of all tax revenue isn't a problem in itself- it's an intuitive irregularity.
But anyway, the reason the wealthy pay such a disproportionately high percentage of total federal tax revenue is because they have such a disproportionately high percentage of the country's money. Their share is so high because middle and lower class growth has stagnated while the highest few percent have thrived.
July 15, 2009 1:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why should the "wealthy" pay more? If they earn 20% (for example) of the nation's income, why should they pay more than 20% of the nation's taxes?
July 15, 2009 1:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, if the top 20% of the bracket only paid 20% of the nation's taxes, every millionaire and billionaire included, their tax rate would be a fraction of everyone else's, and the deficit would triple or quadruple or something like that. No one is proposing that. Maybe you mean that everyone should pay the same tax rate, or something to that effect.
The problem with that is this: it doesn't make sense to aim for the simplest possible tax policy. Conceptual simplicity isn't the goal of tax policy, and its not a value in and of itself. The goal of tax policy is to produce the highest possible good.
Imagine a line, where all the way over to the right is no taxes at all, and all the way over to the left is 100% taxation- state ownership of everything. Too far to the right and critical government programs can't be paid for. Highways crumble, crime runs unchecked, people die. Too far to the left and there is no incentive for success because the government is taking most of your money anyway. The economy stagnates, innovation suffers, and so, too, do people.
The idea is to find the sweet spot on that line, weighing the importance of government programs and the importance of capitalist incentives. What most experts think is that we can continue to move to the left and fund important programs like health care without producing a significant detriment to capitalist incentives.
July 15, 2009 1:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Well, if the top 20% of the bracket only paid 20% of the nation's taxes, every millionaire and billionaire included, their tax rate would be a fraction of everyone else's"
Actually - if someone who generates 5% of the nation's income pays 5% of the country's taxes, and someone else who generates .0000000005% of the income pays .0000000005% of the total taxes, then those two people would both have the same tax rate. The first person's tax rate wouldn't be a fraction of the second person's. They'd both be paying the same effective rate.
I'm not just focused on simplicity, I am also focused on fairness. I don't believe it's fair that the top 1% of filers earned 22% of the nation's income but paid 40% of the taxes. The top 50% of filers earned 88% of the income and paid 97% of the taxes. At some point the people at the top will be disincentivized to grow their businesses if a disproportionate amount of their earnings gets taxed and the poor get a free ride. Shouldn't the bottom 50% of filers who earned 12% of the nation's income pay 12% of the total tax bill instead of just 3%?
July 15, 2009 3:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your argument for a flat tax on income rather than a graduated tax (as has been in effect ever since a federal tax on income was authorized by constitutional amendment) fails to take into account the fact that those with higher incomes receive a proportionately greater benefit from government than those with lower incomes.
Although those with higher incomes generally (with the exception of farmers who receive subsidies) do not receive greater direct benefits from government, they do receive greater indirect benefits. For example, they receive much greater police protection of their assets (which, of course, are much greater than the assets of those with lower incomes). They also are the primary beneficiaries of governmental investment in infrastructure which enables the operation of trade and the economy from which they reap a greater benefit in the form of income. The list goes on and on. That's why, ever since the income tax was first instituted, it has been graduated. Unfortunately, during Reagan's presidency and since then, politicians who have become beholden to the rich, have modified the tax code to enable those with higher income to continue reaping the benefits of government without having to pay their fair share.
July 15, 2009 3:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
What a ridiculous argument!
What exactly is the extra police protection of the assets of the rich?
What kind of infrastructure investment are the rich chief beneficiaries of?
As for graduated income tax being somehow ennobled by historical precedent and therefore correct - so was slavery and inability for women to vote.
In any case and regarding Chaplin's funnypoint above, the same thing would happen with hiking tax levels to 1980s as happened back then: turning income into capital gains, claiming individuals as corporations, deferring personal income, etc.
People will always look for ways to reduce taxable income. Especially when tax burden is confiscatory in nature and imposed as retribution because of class resentment.
July 15, 2009 3:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're kidding, right? You think the police patrol my neighborhood more than the poorer section of town? And how do I benefit more than someone else when the pothole in the street gets fixed or the town basketball court gets re-paved?
July 15, 2009 4:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
If you're very wealthy, but then the world goes to anarchy, you lose everything.
If you're already living on the streets, or paycheck to paycheck, and the whole world falls apart, you're pretty much even steven.
-- ARG
July 15, 2009 5:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
What's that an attempt to answer my questions?
July 15, 2009 6:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
If they don't Bill, I fear you are not rich.
July 15, 2009 6:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
I never said I was rich. I simply said it's not logical to say that the rich receive more public service for their tax dollars than the poor do. That's ridiculous.
July 15, 2009 10:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
They certainly have more to lose in an insurrection or invasion. When the military goes out to "protect" America, the rich are the ones whose property and worth are a disproportionate sector of the country's property and worth. Therefore, they should pay a disproportionate share of the taxes. Plus, how many of the rich are out there doing the "protecting"? That falls on the poor and middle classes, whose remuneration for being on the front lines is disproportionately smaller than a rich person's, sitting on his/her couch collecting dividends and interest that are taxed disproportionately less than the amount the middle class and military are taxed for their labor. Further, the system is skewed, whereby the rich have infiltrated the government--particularly the regulatory agencies that that theoretically monitor the banks and investment houses: the Rubins, Summers, Corzines, etc. Here's the story of how they have ripped unfair advantage of the financial system: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/29127316/the_great_american_bubble_machine
July 16, 2009 10:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh please. There has not been any conspiracy to "infiltrate" the government. Rolling Stone needs to write sensational stories to sell magazines. Successful and smart people that want to contribute to public life are going to end up in Washington. Ask Matt Taibbi if he's ever run a business before.
July 18, 2009 8:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Where I live public schools are funded by property taxes - leading to a situation where those schools located in wealthy areas receive disproportionately higher funding.
Furthermore, that financing system is a legacy of the affluent's oversized influence in local governance, which could be considered a public service.
I think a blanket statement of "rich people get more services" isn't really accurate, but there's definitely an element of truth to it.
July 16, 2009 11:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Of course the wealthy recieve a disproportionate benefit of public tax dollars. Although to see the people above argue because our defense dollars protect their wealth is a bit of a stretch.
Who do you think educates their workforce, gives them security when they retire so they are willing to work for cheap, safeguards their children, paves and maintains the roads their trucks drive on, subsidizes the airlines their executives fly on, creates incentives for corporate entities that support the business ecosystems in which they thrive, fights wars to maintain cheap energy, opens international trade routes, and pays for their unemployment insurance programs?
Need I go on?
Why do you think America is the greatest capitalist power on earth? Because out public policy empowers, protects, and nurtures it.
Of course the rich disproportionately benefit from public infrastructure. If they didn't, they'd leave.
July 16, 2009 11:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Educates the workforce? Are you saying that the rich benefit more because our country has a public education system? How?
And how do the rich benefit disproportionately because the roads are paved? Doesn't everyone benefit from that?
July 18, 2009 8:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's funny; I've never heard that argument before. Conservatives tend to say that progressive taxes are unfair because rich people pay much more for the common services that poor people get for cheap. They both get the same roads, police, fire departments etc, but the rich pay a ton more in taxes. The idea that rich people get more benefits from those taxes is novel and I think a bit nutty.
July 16, 2009 11:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
How many fleets of trucks are the poor sending over those roads? What proportion of government grants for innovation the poor using? How many poor use our public court systems to end their disputes with corporations? When the poor are out lobbying Washington for changes to public policy, you think the Rich guys there get mad?
Its funny to me everyone thinks the Rich don't use more services.
Our government is practically controlled by the rich. Its how power works. That they fooled you into thinking they are like everybody else, just goes to show how effective they are at it.
July 16, 2009 12:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
MuddleClassBill can always be depended on to defend the rich from the poor.
MCB/Limbaugh/Republican Logic "Its poor people who are draining this country dry!!" The poor have secret accounts in the Caymans I suppose, to hide all their loot.
July 16, 2009 11:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
ad hominem, ad hominem. I'm not surprised you don't bother to address the point, but just throw any references to Rush, etc.
I am simply saying the tax bill is not fairly distributed across our citizen base. And it's not even just the "rich", unless you consider the top half of tax filers all as "rich".
July 18, 2009 8:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
"At some point the people at the top will be disincentivized to grow their businesses if a disproportionate amount of their earnings gets taxed and the poor get a free ride."
Let's not call this a "disincentive" but rather what it is - spite. Paying taxes could just as easily be thought of as a proud and honorable contribution to society's well-being.
July 16, 2009 12:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Middle CLass,
if you're looking for a "fair tax" as you seem to be, then the only fair tax would be one in which we all pay the exact dollar amount.
Any tax which has Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and George Soros paying more than me in actual dollars is unfair.
July 16, 2009 2:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why does everyone need to pay the same dollar amount?
July 18, 2009 8:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Each pays proportionate to means (Republicans: Christ expounded on this when asked why a poor man should be taxed less than a rich man).
Notice the year 1928 (preceeding the Great Depression)... taxes for the wealthy were at an all-time low and yet the economy collapses utterly.
Fast-forward to year 2008... taxes for the wealthy are again at an all-time low (thanks to the Bush tax cuts) and yet the economy collapses utterly.
Meanwhile, Republicans continuously argue trickle-down economics, claiming that if the wealthy are required to pay higher taxes, then negative decisions as affect innovation and job growth will damage the economy.
However, the facts don't appear to support that theory.
Would like to see exact figures for 2008.
Thank you for the info... very useful.
July 16, 2009 10:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
From an effective rate perspective, are only the rich are paying lower taxes? Or are the poor paying lower rates too?
The total amount of taxes paid by millionaire households doubled from to $274 billion in 2006 from $136 billion in 2003. I think it's a total fantasy to think that the Bush tax cuts were a giveaway to the rich.
July 18, 2009 8:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
"What a ridiculous argument! What exactly is the extra police protection of the assets of the rich? What kind of infrastructure investment are the rich chief beneficiaries of?"
Our laws, institutions, and government in general is largely in place to protect property owners and property rights. If you can't see why or how such a system generally benefits people in proportion to how much property they own, or why the wealthy put a greater cost burden on the system, you need to take off your ideological blinders.
Contrary to the nonsense claims of libertarians - you sound like one - the rich not only benefit from government but they benefit disproportionately. I really think sending about 1000 libertarians to some Pacific island and filming them as they attempt to create the libertarian utopia would make the greatest reality TV show ever. The libertarian dream would become Lord of the Flies before the end of season 1. And those who make it back would no doubt have learned first hand to appreciate the value of government, laws, and taxes.
July 16, 2009 11:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'd watch that!
July 16, 2009 12:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Would you care to give an example of how the rich benefit disproportionately?
July 18, 2009 8:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Because they get more.
A lot more.
And they would have none of it without government expenditures.
July 16, 2009 12:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Would you care to give an example of how they "get more"?
July 18, 2009 8:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Because the marginal utility of a $ is greater for the poor than for the rich. Try to maintain some contact with the realities of human life, Bill.
July 17, 2009 4:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the compliment. But your assertion that richer people have lower marginal utility and therefore should be taxed at a greater rate is not completely logical. If it is a matter of satisfying the basic needs for food, shelter, clothing, etc. then last dollars do mean alot. But that is an argument for a basic exemption from taxation, not for levying progressively steeper surtaxes in the middle and upper brackets.
Beyond a certain subsistence and cultural minimum, the idea that last dollars can be rated in accordance with a scale of marginal utility to the individual is just a fantasy. Every individual values his/her last dollars differently. Who is to say whether a middle class man's last dollar that is spent on a new TV is worth any more or less than a rich person whose last dollar is spent on a country club membership?
To make the attempt to force equality of sacrifice by taking more of what the well-to-do man values less is wrong. The utility of a dollar to any person is purely subjective and cannot be measured.
July 19, 2009 10:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that it is the typical cowardice of our political leaders, especially Democrats, that prevent us from simply raising taxes on the rich back up to where they ought to be. But unless and until we have public financing of elections, it is the rich and powerful who are providing all the campaign funds the politicians require for their re-elections and who they have oriented all their attention toward in the past 30-40 years.
July 15, 2009 1:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Believe it or not I have seen CNN talking heads reflecting information that if one makes a certain amount the whole income is taxes at the top percentage.
Please the income scale that pays the per-cent tax on the left side so that the income amounts reflect the taxable percentage. Remember the highest income earners only pay the same tax as any other citizen in each beginning brackets. Also please remember that the richest individual may not be the highest income earners!
Also remember the largest amount of asset increase for the rich is reflected in increase value of a stock, business, land and structure, and other physical assets. These do not reflect in the yearly income figures and under Bush the “death tax” was decrease and for a short period stopped.
July 15, 2009 2:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
You make a good point, Thinking. In a fair society, taxes would be highly progressive, so that the hardship imposed on one's standard of living would be equal for a family earning $60,000 and a billionaire with half a dozen yachts and villas. In other words, the pain levels should be equal. That level of fairness is politically unachievable, and I would also argue that absolute fairness may conflict with other societal goals that reward entrepreneurship. Even so, most very rich individuals, as you point out, escape taxes on a large proportion of their income, and it would be desirable to rectify this egregious level of inequity.
July 15, 2009 4:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
The issue of fairness takes many turns. In Finland traffic fines are on a sliding scale based on incomes and/or wealth. The fine is pegged at a percentage, not an amount. For the wealthiest, traffic fines can be in the thousands.
How could a $100 fine deter a hedge fund manager from speeding?
Any argument over this policy will simply dredge up the tired arguments of the poor overtaxed rich that they are "oppressed." But it would be fun to see this idea discussed in a legislature, wouldn't it?
July 16, 2009 7:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
Tomgnh - The French writer of a previous century, Anatole France, put it very well in his commentary on the laws of his country -
"The law, with majestic impartiality, forbids rich and poor alike to steal bread and sleep under bridges."
July 16, 2009 11:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
We might point out here that innovation is not restricted to the domain of the wealthy.
July 16, 2009 10:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
To all you John Galt wannabes out there please take note that the golden age in 20th century America was the 1950's and 1960's where Americans led the world in innovation, where the American workers were paid well, made products that the rest of the world wanted and the wealthy paid had an income tax rate in excess of 80%.
Everything was going well until you John Galt types out there started walking the Earth like Satan in Steven King's novel The Stand, misleading people with lies that hell is actually Utopia. "Just lower taxes...it is yours, you deserve it." There are lies and then there are damned lies.
July 16, 2009 10:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
P.S. the latter years of the graph are cut-off. Were'd you get this? I could make use of this... would you mind emailing me the graph, or better yet, its source? I'd appreciate it.
kfreed00@yahoo.com
July 16, 2009 10:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Having lived in many different city and states I can say without a doubt that cities/ states with Wealthier industry or populous do enjoy better ,police service/ hospitals/ schools/ infrastucture. These wealthier areas I've lived in also have healthier , more capable employees and safer streets to conduct buisiness large and small in .Essentialy profit is in the people. transportation , health services and crime prevention services are neccesary for buisiness to function. At all . There is no profit without these things . Now If were going to argue the impropriety of unfair tax burdens than it is essential that we acknowledge the plight of the hourly worker and the fact that our minimum wage is criminaly low in this country . If you have ever had to live off of it then you would not question that. Also there are not nearly enough hours given and most hourly positions do not allow for overtime or cut it aggressively. Therefore the very health and survival of the American workforce is on a tightrope as it is . We no longer make enough to survive and retirement is getting harder to save for. We are also currently denied the right to organize. It is moot to argue the point that a healthy and educated workforce is neccesary to be profitable in the first place. So where do we go from here?The problem is that when we argue taxes we talk about fairness when the heart of the redistribution argument is sustainability and taken forward prosperity. I'm for prosperity over profit .
July 16, 2009 1:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
The US Navy patrols the middle east to protect the investments of American oil billionaires. They are actually deployed on oil platforms to guard them. My son just came back from from 7 months of doing just that. And he did not mention running into John Gault out there.
All of you suck-holes who want to know how the rich are making out in our "capitalist" system - ought to fucking enlist or STFU.
July 16, 2009 2:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Raising the rates would not be enough. The very wealthiest taxpayers could avoid the tax simply by holding (and not selling) their appreciated securities and borrowing against the appreciation.
Only a mark-to-market tax on the publicly-traded securities of the highest-income and wealthiest individuals would achieve the progressivity you seek.
This proposal would raise significantly more revenue than the surtax, would be much more progressive, would not require any increase in tax rates, would affect far fewer taxpayers, and would be more in line with the consensus view that the tax base must be broadened. It would also level the playing field between wage and income earners (who are currently subject to tax at ordinary income rates on all or virtually all of their economic income) and with investors (who defer tax indefinitely on appreciation and, when taxed, pay it at reduced long-term capital gains rates).
See http://www.cadwalader.com/assets/article/120505MillerTaxNotes.pdf
http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/taxreformpanel/meetings/docs/miller_052005.ppt
July 16, 2009 6:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
The level of political cowardice in the Democratic Party today is mind-boggling.
Too many Democrats are still reeling from Dukakis' loss in 1988. They are stuck in the past and try to make names for themselves by selling out the hard won victories of the past. (I'm looking at you, Senator Ben Nelson).
That's why we're seeing an obsession with certain Senate committee chairs to give up enough to get the Republicans aboard. That's why the climate bill has been so watered down.
Good piece!
July 16, 2009 7:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I strongly disagree, alpha. I believe many Democrats and a few Republicans are exhibiting exemplary courage regarding climate change, health care, and other issues. Please see my comments and link near the very top of this thread.
I can't speak to the issue of Senator Nelson, but when it comes to climate change, many Democrats were responding to constituencies of ordinary citizens whose livelihoods depend directly or indirectly on oil and coal. It would be more noble to favor the entire human species over those constituencies, but I still wouldn't refer to representing one's constituents as "cowardice", even if it's sometimes misguided.
July 16, 2009 8:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Deceit = Lies = Trouble.
Always.
July 17, 2009 11:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
The argument is valid BUT, we play the wrong game when we argue about the level of taxation separately from how that money is spent. The old Reaganaut cry of 'tax and spend' should be more specific. 'Tax who and spend on what?'
For example, rather than the overall cost of fixing health care being the focus; the central point should be how to get the population healthier and more prosperous. All expenditures in the open, including the several taxes, premiums, deductibles, copays, and opportunity costs, such as working like a 'benefit serf.' All benefits on the table, including decrease in car insurance, healthier workers, etc, etc.
All people in all countries complain about taxes. Most would pay more for a government that works and seems just.
July 17, 2009 1:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
pay for the Health Care Plan. This is just dumb. Why can't they just raise the top rate back to where it was in 1984? Look at where it was in the 1950's thought of as the golden age of American prosperity.(Chart above)
bags factory
August 13, 2010 10:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
What a ridiculous argument!
What exactly is the extra police protection of the assets of the rich?
What kind of infrastructure investment are the rich chief beneficiaries of?
As for graduated income tax being somehow ennobled by historical precedent and therefore correct - so was slavery and inability for women to vote.
In any case and regarding Chaplin's funnypoint above, the same thing would happen with hiking tax levels to 1980s as happened back then: turning income into capital gains, claiming individuals as corporations, deferring personal income, etc.
People will always look for ways to reduce taxable income. Especially when tax burden is confiscatory in nature and imposed as retribution because of class resentment.
Mann Bracken- LLC
October 23, 2010 1:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
So funcy to read the article in this blog. Thank you for posting it.
Marcadis & Associates
October 23, 2010 1:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
I never said I was rich. I simply said it's not logical to say that the rich receive more public service for their tax dollars than the poor do. That's ridiculous.
Criminal Lawyers NY
November 14, 2010 5:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
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February 25, 2011 4:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
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April 2, 2011 5:29 PM | Reply | Permalink