Our meeting with Hamas
That's Norman Finkelstein at right, posing questions last night to three Hamas officials at left. The questions came from the delegation to Gaza that I'm with, which was organized by Code Pink, the antiwar group. Notice the microphone in Finkelstein's left hand.
I asked about a statement by John Ging, the head of United Nations relief organization here (UNWRA), that some of the victims in the Gaza war were "killed because they were taken as human shields."
Basem Naim, the Health Minister, at center on the dais, denied that this had taken place, saying that if it had, evidence of the practice would have come out by now. Besides, he said, Hamas militants are related to 99 percent of the population here so they would not have done so. He went on to attack Fatah, saying that it has held the entire Palestinian people hostage because it is "committed to the fruitless peace process."
Naim stressed that Hamas was prepared to make a longlasting truce with Israel on the basis of the 1967 lines, but as matters stand the group will not give up its right to militant resistance to occupation--which he said George Washington had also not been willing to give up.
As for Ging's statement that some of those killed in the war were "human shields," he made it the other day in an audience with a mixed group of mostly-American students and activists. He said that among many international laws Israel had violated during the war were international norms on the "duty of care" in a "hostage" situation. If someone is holding hostages in a bank, you don't "throw a grenade in and go home for tea," he said.
The other Hamas officials at the table are Fauzy Barhoom, a spokesman for the party, at left, and Taher Al-Nounou, a government spokesman, at right.
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Read Mondoweiss here.
You actually admit to associating with Code Pink and Norman Finkelstein? You aren't nauseated or embarrassed by this?
I'll tell you once my College Democrat club co-sponsored an event that Global Exchange (Code Pink) was doing. I went and was horrified. I still feel bad for not saying something there, but you better believe we never allowed ourselves to be associated with extremists again.
So Naim said that no human shields were used? I guess he must be telling the truth.
And Hamas will honor a truce, or in other words, they'll be peaceful when it's in their interests and resort to violence when it suits them, and Israel will have no right to defend itself at that time.
I read yesterday that the ICC will look at crimes on both sides...at least they try to be fair, unlike this Hamas PR posting.
June 2, 2009 1:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Regarding truces, it was Israel that broke the truce with Hamas in November 2008, when it suited them. Sounds like you're not really an honest broker yourself.
June 2, 2009 1:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Are we back in the schoolyard?
Teacher: "So, what happened?"
Student: "He started it."
Student #2: "No he started it."
Why don't we just say that the so-called truce was deeply and fatally flawed and that neither side lived up to its vague obligations? Can we leave it at that?
June 2, 2009 6:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
We can only leave it at that if what you assert is true. From what I've read in both western and Israeli media, it was not Hamas which broke the truce from earlier in 2008.
June 3, 2009 10:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have to wonder what horrified you about Code Pink by another name. Your comment is an empty smear attempt as it stands.
June 2, 2009 3:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Associating with Normal Finkelstein? Does that imply that Mr. Finkelstein is someone we are supposed to revile, because, egads, he has pointed out that Israel's treatment of Palestinians is a disgrace (it is); that some Jewish organizations have misused the Holocaust (some have); and that Hezbollah properly fought the Zionists who invaded their country? Was there even a Hezbollah before the IDF began murdering Lebanese?
I'd take his side over yours any day.
June 2, 2009 7:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Zionist logic: Block the exists. Block the coast. Control the airspace. Then bomb. And then you can accuse the people on the receiving end of the bombs of "using human shields."
Of course, if Zionland were not an utterly racist and lawless nation, they could have allowed Palestinian civilians to move from the Gaza Strip before bombing.
But since they are not, they didn't.
June 2, 2009 1:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's always black and white. Only Israel provoked the situation and only the Palestinians are the victims. And last time I checked one of those borders are with Egypt and they seem to have the same misgivings about allowing the free flow of people and materials.
I can accept the possibility that Israel was excessive and somewhat careless in its application of military force and somewhat anxious to teach Hamas a lesson (and validate their deterrent), but you can't accept that Hamas selfishly provokes the Israelis and uses its people as human shields.
Well I got news for Hamas. Look at Israel and look at Gaza...right or wrong, their strategy is not working, better try something new.
"Utterly racist and lawless"...laughable! Why don't you ask Farfour and Samir Kuntar about "the descendants of apes and pigs."
June 2, 2009 1:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very weak response. Of course, if you are using the Mubarek dictatorship as measure of decency, you are not only scraping the bottom of barrel, you are using an electron microscope to find your analogies.
June 2, 2009 7:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Israel stole land belonging to the Palestinians. Israel is building communities on those stolen lands. Israel is maintaining an open-air prison called Gaza. The Israeli government is petrified of the settlers because a real peace movement aimed at returning that stolen land would result in the dismemberment of the Israeli state through the violence of the settler movement.
June 3, 2009 10:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Can't wait for the demographic shift where all you'll have are descendants of Hamas and the not-crazy-at-all (haredi) settlers. Maybe then we'll finally have a definite victor in this long and boring war. (I'm going against the last six decades and betting on the Pals. 3-1 odds, at least.)
By the way, Mr Weiss, what's your impression of Finklestein? He spoke at my university a couple years ago and came off as an obsessed blow hard, so frustrated that no one could see what he sees that the arguments were beginning to tire even him. He ended with a weak yelp of "we have to tear down the walls!" or something similar. What is this, the 60s? Yaaawn.
June 2, 2009 1:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you Phillip Weiss for this groundbreaking work and thank you TPM and Josh for giving it this space and audience.
As we can see from some of the comments, so much freedom is stretching some minds beyond what their mental elastic will tolerate.
June 2, 2009 2:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
If Obama actually discusses Palestinian rights, instead of just Palestinian responsibilities, we know the new age has arrived.
(He won't.)
June 2, 2009 7:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
poor finkelstein. when he spoke at my alma mater a few years ago he wasn't at all an obsessed blowhard. in fact he was rather soft spoken and thoughtful. and there was certainly no rallying cry at the end. it was all a highly sedate affair. it's really unfortunate that he got screwed out of his job. really an "academic freedom" disaster.
June 2, 2009 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
It may be the only recent crime at a Catholic institution that did not involve the under-aged.
June 2, 2009 7:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Mr. Weiss in one post compares the Gaza smuggling tunnels to the underground railroad. Here, he uncritically reports the rote denials of Hamas leaders, including the ludicrous comparison to George Washington. To this, I can only say, "Ugh."
By putting this on the cafe, is Josh Marshall giving this his imprimateur? I understand the benefit from airing opposing viewpoints - indeed, I am often challenged and enriched by the diverse opinions expressed here - but this is pure tripe.
June 2, 2009 6:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
And yet you stay.
You never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity to just go away.
June 2, 2009 7:33 PM | Reply | Permalink