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Former Ambassador Indyk Tells Israelis Some Unpleasant Truths

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Check out this blockbuster interview with former ambassador (twice) to Israel, Martin Indyk. It appears in Yediot Achronoth today in Hebrew and is very different from standard interviews with former and possibly future diplomats,

Here's a typical bit of Indyk truth-telling. After the journalists suggest that the United States tried and failed to bring peace at Camp David in 2000, Indyk says that America's problem was "because President Clinton did his best to meet the wishes of your prime ministers." He says: "We worked for you....Clinton felt that Barak used his for his own purposes, misled him."


On Netanyahu: "Bibi suffers from the fact that many people in the administration know him too well."

On Israel's taking risks to achieve peace: "All these years, the US has been strengthening you precisely for this purpose -- so that you can take the risk of making peace. How exactly can the Palestinians destroy you? The real existential danger is that you will not succeed in parting from them."

On attacking Iran: "An Israeli attack on Iran will postpone the project for two, three years. No more."

On whether Obama should issue a deadline to Iran for completion of negotiations: "The Israelis taught us that there are no sacred dates. Israel's government broke every possible deadline in their talks with the Arab world. The question is not the target date. It is whether there is progress in the negotiations."


37 Comments

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OK, that's pretty good actually.

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What do you expect? Indyk is a rabid anti-semite!

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Very Good ! We might as well go straight to the point where these debates always end. ALWAYS.


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You forgot to check your script, Dave. Indyk is Jewish. So the approved Zionist lobby agitprop terminology is "rabid self-hating Jew".

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Um, Dave was kidding.

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He's been listening to too much Abe Foxman.

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Um, so was Peter.

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Kidding is anti-semitic

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Until you can tell the difference between anti-semite and anti-Zionist, you don't get to play. Fascinating interview.
An aside, the Palestinians are semites too.

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Peace process is a sham. More Palestinian land occupied ;more settlers moved in since the talks began.

US doesn't have the balls to get to a two state, viable solution--i.e. back to the 1949 lines.

So, instead, we do the peace process dance with Israel.

And while we fiddle; Arabs burn.

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The two state 'solution' is not acceptable to Hamas or to Likud. Neither is going to accept anything less than the entire country under one government. Both sides have used violence to prevent an agreement. Rabin was murdered by one of the settlers.

Israel cannot afford to have an open peace process because opening the discussion would immediately lead to violence from those opposed to it. Abbas cannot engage in a peace process because he has no legitimacy after the Hamas won the last election.

The only purpose a peace process serves is to make it easier for the US to support Israel's occupation. US public opinion cannot and will not accept the current situation if it is considered permanent.

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This is coordinated. Indyk was over at the WH recently and I'm assuming discussed this very topic. It's quite clear this is an effort to push Israel on this issue.

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"Push" Israel? You mean help make Tzipi PM. The USG loves choosing other countries's leaders. I am enjoying they are trying this crap on Israel for once.

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If that's true, maybe there's hope for Obama. Not holding my breath.

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"...Now you can understand what Clinton felt when Netanyahu tried to incite members of Congress against him..."

Is this what Netanyahu is trying to do now, especially with those on the Foreign Affairs committees etc?

eg. Ackerman
http://www.thejewishweek.com/viewArticle/c39_a15898/News/International.html

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Indyk can obviously see that after Gaza Israel's expensive PR makeover isn't working, hence the unpleasant truths.

If this is truly what Indyk believes then I think it's interesting that it was Ross that got the job with Obama [well Clinton] and Indyk didn't?

Is Dennis Ross Poisoning the Well?
by Kelley B. Vlahos, May 28, 2009
http://original.antiwar.com/vlahos/2009/05/27/is-dennis-ross/

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Ross takes his job seriously. He needs to protect the Egyptian dictator and the Saudi Medieval Monarchy from Iran's imperfect democracy. Because as long as you carry water for Israel and the USA, you are an Arab "moderate." Imagine if Iranian women were treated as badly as Saudi women. We'd see it on the news every night.

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No, we don't get alot of news about the Middle East do we.

With Saudi Arabia apparently there's supposed to be a succession struggle over on at the moment -- which could mean that Saudi women could be even worse off... No mention in the news over here tho'

'Sensitive' developments in Saudi Arabia? Succession-related? Posted by Helena Cobban
April 27, 2009
http://justworldnews.org/archives/003535.html

Also, it seems that the Saudi's are more concerned with Pakistan at the moment than with Iran? I also think it's interesting that TPM now tells us that Obama now wants to build a massive embassy in Pakistan and that he's also decided to do a stop over in SA before going to Egypt.

Iraq redux? Obama seeks funds for Pakistan super-embassy
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/68952.html

I mean what the hell is going on? We can't handle Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, AND Iran.

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Well we could if there was a draft and WWII style taxation.

The question on my mind as I watched the collapse of the twin towers in law school commons area on 9/11/01 was on the nature of the response. Was 9/11 Pearl Harbor or not? How could it not be? How could the response be anything less than that. Might this evolve into an 'area' war instead of a micro war? Moreover, no one could tell. Moreover, only four months earlier we had had a stare down with China in the South China Sea. If you have an area war in South West Asia, might another war erupt in East Asia over Taiwan or Korea or both?

Shouldn't Bush, on the morrow of 9/11 call for the draft? I mean if you need to occupy entire nations a year an a half from 9/11 you have to call for a draft on 9/12 to ensure you have the boots to police occupied countries.

Yet Bush didn't call for a draft on 9/12. If ever it could have been done, it was on 9/12. My 72 year old father said to me, on 9/12 "it makes me want to join up. I wonder if they could use a mechanic?"

To me, the failure to not call for a draft on 9/12 was beguiling. It told me that they weren't really interested in getting to the bottom of things. And of course we now all know that they weren't. Bush was all about looting the country and destroying the remaining vestiges of the New Deal: the widespread middle class. That basically meant wrecking the country. And so he did.

In fact, we are now in a depression that suffers from lack of demand, just like back in the 1930s. Just like back then, the movement out of the depression is halfhearted. So the world is coming unglued once again during a depression.

A successful surgical response was most very responsible after 9/11 in Afganistan. But that ship has sailed.

The surgical response didn't work because the Bush administration did not care about Afghanistan, nor capturing Bin Laden, nor seeing to it that Afghanistan had a proper rebuilding effort and good leadership. Karzai is from the oil establishment - he's part of the legacy to push oil pipelines through the area. In other words, he's part of the Bush/Cheney-petrojunta.

The smart response would have been to build on Afghani institutions - the King was still alive and had immense legitimacy after decades of civil war without him, and the loya jerga functioned as the beginnings of a constitutional parliament in the framework of a constitutional monarchy. Throw the War Lords a feudal bargain to become fiefs to the monarchy or risk warfare against a NATO lead coalition. Then fly in Korean and Japanese Economic Development bureaucrats and one tenth the money we spent on Iraq. After nearly 10 years of economic development, Afghanistan would be the model democracy Bush wanted to establish in Iraq. The combination of functioning Muslim democracies in Turkey and Afghanistan would have put immense pressure for liberalization on Iran, and the combination of functioning democracies in India and Afghanistan would do the same for Pakistan. By 2012 you could have been looking at an archipellego of Democracies from Istanbul to Singapore, most of them Muslim (Myanmar being an exception). There are already modernizing efforts in several of the Emirates in the Persian Gulf.

To me that was the logical thing to do. At that point Bush would have been History's greatest leader. But he traded all that in for the goal of killing the legacy of FDR and invading Iraq. So now he's going down as one of history's worst leaders.

Since Bush failed in the surgical arena, an area size conflict looks all the more like a likely solution. I mean that in historical terms. I can't remember when things got this out of whack and a big war not starting up.

You can't have instable regimes in North Korea, a Pakistan and an Iran walking around with Nuclear weapons. If a big area size war is going to start up, and I perceive a 'two area' or one and a half area, then its time to get affairs in order. The World War II tax system has to be on the table. The financial and industrial systems have to be cleaned up forthwith. Alliances have to be ironed out and tightly stitched. The back door problem to dealing with these are areas is the Arab/Israel problem.

The extremist on both sides of the Israel/Palestine deal are in alliance in fighting against the moderates on both sides. The Jewish people in the Palestine/Israel condominium are already in a minority. There are more non-Jews than Jews in the West Bank, Israel proper and Gaza. The reason Sharon pulled out of Gaza was to reduce the demographic formula so that Jews weren't a ruling majority (al a South Africa).

The only way Zionist extremist can succeed is if there is utter pandemonium all over the Mideast. Then they can go about ethnic cleansing of the West Bank, which would mean pushing Arabs out. Quite likely the Palestinian side would like pandemonium as well to do the same thing, only in reverse. Perhaps both sides believe they would succeed in pandemonium scenario.

Long term, there is no way the United States can support anything but a sustainable two state solution - because anything else equates to ethnic cleansing and is inherently undemocratic.

If Bibi can't go for that, we need to back away from our close alliance with Israel. Since we can't support Israel in a single state solution, all we could then do is the next best thing: We can cut a bunch of visas for mass Jewish immigration out Israel for whomever didn't want to become partners in Bibi's project. There's no way we can absorb millions of them overnight, so we might have to set up temporary sites around the world. I'm sure that between the United States, Australia, Canada and New Zealand could absorb a mass migration of Isreali Jews out of Israel out of desire to not want to be part of Bibi's single state ethnic cleansing project. There's five million Israelis, I'm thinking perhaps two million would want out.

That's the choice. that's the divide. Bibi wants ethnic cleansing/single state solution. I'm sympathetic to that desire - Palestine is too small for one state, let alone two, but single state means ethnic cleansing of someone and that's not really palatable for Americans. The problem is, Bibi needs those two million Jews to remain in Israel and he needs American backing of Israel all the while for his project to succeed. These days he's counting on Obama worrying about re-election and losing the Jewish vote to keep him from criticizing Israel and him specifically. But I can see Obama saying: "we can't support, nor be a party to a single state solution, and so if Israeli policy is to pursue a single state solution, our policy has to be to support the Jewish people instead of Israeli policy." At which point, Netanyahoo would be out on his ear in a fort night.

Making a two state solution work is going to be messy. There's going to be some ugly head lines. But a single state solution, unless it's a pluralist solution (i.e. no state with a uniquely Jewish identity), is simply probably, and probably not possible. Over all, its quite unattractive development. There are no good solutions.

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Good stuff,

Rhetoric aside, how chummy can the Iranians be with the Palestinian Authority and for that matter the Syrians? The Sunni and Shia are destroying themselves in Iraq.

Sounds like negotiating with Syria is the way to go. All roads go through Damsacus. Syrian peace with Israel will serve to bolster the Palestinian two state process, isolate Iran further, and stroke Bibi's political ambitions. That is, the common starting point could be fear of the shia crescent.

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Syria is a Baathist state, which is secular. And the Iranians aren't crazed fundamentalist as widely portrayed -- they're suave politicians who have ruled the mideast for a thousand years.

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Yes, I suppose religion is a political leverage to the power elite.

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Israel Short Term Peace Plan
1. No Palestinians
2. All the land

Israel Long Term Peace Plan
2. No Iran
4. No Lebanon
5. No Syria
6. No Jordan

Israel Super Duper Long Term Peace Plan
7. No Mars
8. No Uranus

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I see....

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Ahh, come on, Pearl, let us keep our anuses.

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you're a dog. you're safe.

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It is arguably too late for Israel to wake up to reality. It has manoeuvred itself into a corner from which the only way out will be by the use of its WMD. And that will endanger a far greater region than the ME. The only solution now is for the US to grab the nettle and impose a solution on all the warring factions both within Israel and without.

The international community has, or should have, far more issues of global importance to deal with than to continue to pander to Israeli intransigence. Global warming is one and global economic stability is another. The world should not be wasting all this continuous energy and effort on Israel. Banging heads together is the no-nonsense answer now and the puncturing of puffed-up pride.

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Good G-d INDYK?


I think they got the message

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A little perspective:

Iran has threatened to wipe Israel off the map.

Hamas and Hezbollah officially want to eliminate the Jewish State. Missiles still fall on Israel civilians.

The Palestinian Authority still funds textbooks and religious sermons denouncing Jews (not Israelis) and calling for the destruction of Israel.

Israel ... builds houses. Their intransigence is unacceptable.

I realize that life in Gaza and the West Bank is horrible. Israel has her knee on Palestinians' throats, but the Palestinians are reaching for a knife. If Israel gets up, she will get stabbed. But if the Palestinians stop reaching for the knife, Israel might get up. Palestinians have nothing to lose from stopping the hate, but Israel has a lot to lose by stopping the restrictions.

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Oh, please. Get a grip. The list of things that the Israelis do, have done, and continue to do in their century long unprovoked assault and war against the native Palestinians is long, well known, and there's really no need to go into it length here. But your assertion that all the Israelis do is "build houses" is a disgusting insult to all those who have suffered because of these dirty pig settlers. They settlers are nothing but squatters, building illegal houses on stolen land.

And Israel's jackboot isn't on the Palestinian throat out of any sense of self-preservation; it's to complete their theft of the Palestinian lands and resources.

If the Palestinians are grabbing for a knife, it is because they've been shot, stomped, beaten, stabbed and tortured for over six decades now, and are trying to defend themselves. Or is it only Jews or Israelis in your opinion that are entitled to defend themselves.

Stopping the hate? When has that EVER gotten the Palestinians anything but more oppression, continued occupation and more settlers attacking the Palestinians while chanting "Death to Arabs"??? No one in his right mind would trust an Israeli official. Ever, about anything. If Netanyahu said that one plus one equals two, the smart man would check that bastard's math.

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I cannot help but point out the humor in beginning your reply to Velcro with the words, "Oh please. Get a grip."

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Israel's use of the settler's religious fanaticism (or whatever it is, it's no religion I as a Jew can recognise) to use them as human sheilds or pawns is disgusting. I thought Israel was supposed to be a safe refuge for Jews?

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Building houses is part of the process of ethnic cleansing. It's the clean part of ethnic cleansing. The dirty part happens next. Could building houses in the West Bank be anything else?

Both Jews and Palestinian think in much longer terms of time than your average American. They each think the issue will be solved in a couple of centuries.

That's like saying pulling fist back is not the same thing as bringing it fist forward - true but you have to do both to punch someone.

Personally, I don't have a problem with them doing this. I just have a problem with America being a partner to this.

There are four possible solutions to the Israeli/Palestinian problem:

1) single Jewish state
2) single Palestinian state
3) single pluralistic state (like the U.S. - no unique Jewish identity, no unique Palestinian identity, etc.)
4)two state solution with one state with a Jewish identity and the other with an Palestinian identity.

Since the U.S. is number 3 - that would be our obvious natural first choice (and its the choice that Spielberg seemed to be pointing towards in his movie "Munich"). Because we like the Jewish people we are willing to extend ourselves some and support option 4.

America cannot be a party to either option 1 or 2 because it involves ethnic cleansing.

Building houses is part of option 1. It might not be option one in its totality, just like you pulling your fist back is not the same as punching me, but it is the first step towards punching and you can't not punch me with out pulling your fist back before sending it forward against my nose.

In slow motion, when your scale of time is several centuries, building houses is ethnic cleansing, just in slow motion.

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Your problem is you can't sell this crap any more. Joe the Plumber's on your side, totally. However, but for a shrinking minority of anti-intellectual Americans like him, the whole world is sick of this. The American President won't put up with it. The American interest is to put an end to this ridiculous Hatfields vs. McCoys tribal feud. It's over, pal.

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If Israel wants to expand the settlements, fair enough, there will be half a million Jewish people living under Palestinian rule, within the 1967 borders, its their choice.

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Peace process = legitimation of occupation

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