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Holier Than Thou

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There is a great deal of posturing in the press recently about the new Afghan law applying to Shiite's that legalizes marital rape.

President Karzai, who relies on vast support from the United States and other Western governments to stay in power, has come under intense international criticism for signing the bill into law.

The brave Afghan women who marched yesterday to protest the law deserve our moral support, but before we get too morally comfortable in condemning the "10th Century" practices of Muslims we should remember that until 1993 marital rape was legal in North Carolina.
Until the late 1970's, most states did not consider spousal rape a crime. Typically, spouses were exempted from the sexual assault laws. For example, until 1993 North Carolina law stated that "a person may not be prosecuted under this article if the victim is the person's legal spouse at the time of the commission of the alleged rape or sexual offense unless the parties are living separate and apart."

If you don't think that domestic violence on women is not still a huge issue in the United States you are on planet Mars.

Physician heal thyself.


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Yes... but... Mr. Taplin, in this country we openly debated the issue, decided to remedy the situation, and did so. Oddly, as we arced from one ethos to another, no one was stoned by angry mobs. We change, and, yes, sometimes we change by overcoming violent reaction; certainly, the American civil rights movement taught us that. But it's that process - change - and the fact it seems so agonizing and passionate in this case that's remarkable and sobering. I'm not clear how merely poring over our own past, and its rejected components, mitigates anything in Afghanistan today.

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i'm not sure i find a point in your comment. certainly not any real response to taplin's priamry point which is not to mitigate anything going on in afghanistan but that decrying the practice as '10th century' misdirects from the reality that the policy is more accurately described as 'early 1990s' at least with regard the US. and, as americans, unless we understand our own shortcomings on the issues of women's rights our self-righteousness on the subject is easily scoffed at. that marital rape was made illegal in 1993 is a point of shame, not the point of pride you suggest it to be. and let us not underestimate the number of americans who still do not regard marital rape as rape, regardless of what the law might say.

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not that taplin bothers to ascribe the '10th century' remark to anyone...

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Taplin cites one state that had failed by 1993 to recognize that rape could be committed within a marriage. You tell me how that prevents us, as citizens of a society that has never stoned women in accord with civil law, from critizing these, yes, 10th-century practices today.

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I guess Salem, Massachusetts and environs weren't really part of our society, and this shit happened so long ago it might as well have been the 10th century. And I guess being stoned to death is different than being crushed to death under stones ...

between February 1692 and May 1693 ... Nineteen of the accused, fourteen women and five men, were hanged. One man (Giles Corey) who refused to enter a plea was crushed to death under heavy stones in an attempt to force him to do so. At least five more of the accused died in prison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials

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...And this shit happened so long ago it might as well have been the 10th century...

Then, for God's sake, Ned, why bring it up? That's my whole point: We're either discussing an issue in the present, or we're discussing one of the past, be it from the 17th century, the 10th, or a decade ago. As time passes, we change - or we don't. On this single issue, this country has changed. We should suppress valid criticism of any issue only to the extent our own offenses regarding that issue remain unaddressed.

For crying out loud, Ned, can't you come up with anything a tad fresher than the Salem witch trials?

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For some recent abuses of human rights in the USA, for San Fernando Curt:

(1) Non-judicial lynching of blacks, Jews and others. In 1948 Strom Thurmond ran for president on a platform of blocking any federal inference with lynch mobs. google images

(2) Internment in concentration camps natural born Americans of Japanese ancestry in WW2, and the confiscation of their property.

(3) Legal eugenic sterilization and the withholding of medical care through the 1940's for the 'feebleminded' and others, and the provision of database support by IBM to Hitler for more diabolical race purification programs in the 3rd Reich. link

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Curt, you're the one who used the italicized word "never" in your post:

... us, as citizens of a society that has never stoned women in accord with civil law

Just be a little more careful with your words and we'll all be happy.

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yes, Curt, it's your right to be self-righteous and smug, and I'll defend your right to the, well, to somewhere just short of death (keepin' it real, here).

but context is something our nation and federal government has been lacking most of the past decade, and its results have proven to be catastrophically destructive in every possible way.

can't understand your knee-jerk reaction to true context, unless you just want to feverishly pile on in a demonizing and bogus clash-of-civilizations, holier-than-thou way (which was the title of Jon's post, by the way).

don't worry, no one is saying that America's own very real version of misogyny, still ongoing, is worse than stoning or whatever, only that if you want to be honest you can't be all smug and self-rightous about somebody else's problems. you do want to be honest, don't you?

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Facing your disingenuousness, NewsNag, it's extremely hard to muster any kind of a response, much less an honest one, but I'll try. The point isn't about government contexts or clashes of civilizations, it's about who has the right to criticize elements of other cultures. Mr. Taplin's point was that legislative prohibitions against marital rape have not been spelled out in our own culture until relatively lately. My point was that, on this particular issue, American society proved itself capable of change; Afghanistan lawmakers seem determined to keep that culture mired in the standards of the distant past. Even with our own past in mind (surely, the Left will never let us forget all shortfalls, real and imagined), we can and should criticize such backwardness.

And I apologize for beginning this comment accusing you of dishonesty. Your comment wasn't dishonest. Your comment was stupid.

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Yes, in this country we don't literally throw stones... we just become absurdly defensive and angry.

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...Or butt in with twaddle.

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My point exactly.

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Oh, dearie me, touche!

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My my, women in Switzerland got the vote in 1970. That's exactly equivalent to wearing a burqa, being forbidden education and having revenge killings. Right? Right? Can I hear you say Right?????

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DAMMIT! I'll get right on the phone to Switzerland and chew them out over this, and... oh... wait... it's not 1970 anymore.

Anywhere!

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Did you check the international dateline? They may be holding out. YET AGAIN!!!!

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My point was that, on this particular issue, American society proved itself capable of change
Yes, it has. Barely, and not without a great deal of foot-dragging on the part of many who find plenty of time to criticize other cultures. And you must admit that there are those who still maintain the law is an affront to God. I mean, come on, that was almost 100 years after women's suffrage was codified. And the ERA never made it to a vote ...
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And Curt, please explain to me how your ability to criticize this 10th century tribal bullshit does anything other than make you feel good about yourself?

Let's face it - we (the US) fucked up.
We let the window of opportunity, however slim the opening and short its duration, slam shut on the reasonable possibility of convincing the various peoples of Afghanistan to leave the 10th century.
By the end of 2004, this outcome had already been written - it just took awhile to get through the final edits.

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it's extremely hard to muster any kind of a response, much less an honest one, but I'll try.

And it is better to try and fail than not to try at all. Good try, Curt.

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Perpetual House-Arrest for Women in Afghanistan

The same law in Afghanistan that allows marital rape (specifically among the Shia) also forbids women to leave the house without permission from a male relative.

Mr. Taplin say US law allowed marital rape in some states as recently as 1992, but...

When is the last time US law forbade women to leave the house without permission from a male relative?

Is it supposed to be insignificant that the so-called "rape law" turns every home into a prison for women?

And just because the media have annointed this miserable law as "the rape law," it's also worth repeating that you could just as well call it...

The house-arrest law, because all women under its jurisdiction are imprisoned for the sole "crime" of being born a woman.

House arrest for life!

for the sole "crime"...

...and only for the particular "crime" of...

being born a woman.


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Control of conception is the underlying conflict in all cultures and it surfaces in many issues including abortion, rape and domestic violence. War between cultures reinforces patriarchal attempts to control conception on both sides by subjugating women with the politics of fear.

When did humans become conscious of causality in terms of reproduction? I think it is fair to assume that women were aware that intercourse resulted in pregnancy before men were, in fact some men apparently prefer to remain blissfully unaware. But what happened when men became at least unconsciously aware of the implications of planting a seed in the ground and reaping the resulting harvest. They were driven by biological imperatives to control it. And religion and warfare are the indirect cultural means to try to control conception for those who find this challenge daunting.

The primary difference in the experience of men and women is the certainty of their reproductive success. Women experience that success when they hold their child in their arms. Men don’t experience that level of certainty. Reproductive success is the root of emotional security, adolescent male rage is the unconscious realization of the uncertainty that confronts them. War and cultural conflict channels that rage against each other while attempting to enforce patriarchal privilege at home. Politics is just the cultural mediation of male insecurity.

Obama’s mother spent much of her life promoting microfinance in Indonesia, the world’s largest Muslim nation. Microfinance is usually targeted at women in developing nations. It has often succeeded in raising the standard of living in previously destitute regions by giving women a more central role in the economy. That is the cultural change that is needed in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

The lunacy on the right is a direct result of a faltering economy, male insecurity and the greater role of women in our own economy. The same thing is happening over there on a tribal level

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Although I favor the sort of third-world micro-lending you describe, I can't see how it would do much good in Afghanistan, but I'm willing to be convinced, and I also believe that the little good that I can foresee from micro-lending in Afghanistan would be very much worthwhile.

But in the tribal zones of Afghanistan, and not just way up in the mountains near Waziristan, I have a hard time imagining just what sort of business a micro-loan could help a woman establish.

The same sort of quandary arises in India in agricultural states like Chattisgarh, where a little assistance may set up a push-cart, but can't save farmers bankrupted by drought, and there's not much business for a push-cart in Chattisgarh, anyway.

I hope you'll believe this is a legitimate question, and if you have some links or further details about micro-lending in Afghanistan, I would be grateful to see them.

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You say the women who marched in Afghanistan deserve our moral support. But you don't give it. Those very brave women do not deserve you using them as a pawn to make political spin. They are fighting for rights for women everywhere men try to contort Islam into a women control machine.

You are no friend of feminism, sir.

I find the spin you are attempting here to be extremely offensive. I don't care what century or decade it is happening in. It wasn't right then and it isn't right now. Two wrongs don't make a right. We changed the laws here and we should support changing the laws there.

Back in the day of Jim Crow did you also say that the north should solve its own racism problems before seeking to change the south's "special" culture?

By the way, for most women, there really is a big big difference between having an abusive mate you can call the police about and state-sanctioned abuse simply because you a women. Try hard to imagine, I guess you can't see it: ou have nowhere to turn, nowhere to go, you are basically enslaved, a piece of property?

If you can't understand the difference, best say nothing, you'd be more help that way.

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If you really want to get into the politics of it, you should read the New York Times article more carefully. This law doesn't even have the "benefit" of being a appeasement to Taliban, but appears to be a sop to a few sick leaders of Shiite Hazara who managed to get some power, who are a 20% minority. The protesting women could probably get their way quite easily with just a little more outside support, and already Karzai is trying to scramble to try to moderate the quick and easy thing he did by signing it, because of international outrage. Seems to me that just don't think of the women at all there, they really don't, they don't even think of them, they are non-persons, expendable, not worth pandering to in any way, they will take what they are given without a peep. Kudos to those brave women.

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Taplin stretches to make a point about hypocrisy and the existence of spousal abuse in the USA. This rather abstract or intellectualized point has a little merit as presented. It's similar to the responses by some on the left to 9/11 -- a call for reflection and introspection. Of course Taplin isn't calling for us to examine our role in the context/circumstances of the new Afg. laws in a direct parallel to that of 2001. He's running on fumes to find something to write about.

The first problem he faces is that he doesn't critique actual punditry, he merely alleges "There is a great deal of posturing in the press recently" without citing specific instances worth challenging. So there is no evidence and thus no possibility of knowledge or proof of whatever point about the posturing.

It's true that the laws in Afg. are based on tradition and customs dating back to the 10th century (and earlier too). So what? I suppose Taplin thinks that some people believe that Karzai is living in the 10th century.

Does Taplin have a point besides a kind of non-sequitur approach to not discussing the actual posturing and not discussing the question of current US spousal abuse laws, customs, or practices?

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While there's no need to refer to other culture's as "10th century" and while we should never stop examining our own cultural flaws (and around here we never do) I do think it's reasonable to ask the big question here: is hard core sharia law compatible with life in an open society? And the answer is, of course, that it isn't and on that conservatives and liberals in America both agree, we just disagree about what to do about it. But it's a healthy agreement.

Yes, they have stupid laws in the south. But I'm concerned about my tax dollars being used to prop up an oppressive government in Afghanistan in the name of "Democracy building."

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Don't fall for the spin, destor. This IS ignorant 10th- century tribal shit.

There is no earthly reason that Afghan Shiite Hazara women have to live under a much worse version of sharia than their Iranian sisters.

No earthly reason except some backroom political deal made with a troglodyte but powerful Shiite cleric. A deal selling out not only the women of Afghanistan but one that is probably in conflict with the statement of women's rights in their own constitution as per the admission of Karzai's spokesman in the New York Times report (first link in Taplin's post.) Now they are backtracking and saying since it hasn't gone into the official register yet, it can be changed. That's only because of the protest and the attention brought by that. They sold out the women just to make some minority faction happy, thinking women are not important and wouldn't complain, that's what happened. Well, they are complaining, and anyone who believes that basic human rights are compatible with Islam should be supporting them.

If Mr. Taplin ridiculously thinks it's politically incorrect for progressive Westerners to criticize this sick distorted version of "sharia" (quotes intentional) as bogus 10th-century ignorant tribal beliefs masquerading as sharia, then I hope it's okay for Pakistani women to say it is? Currently, this fight is not only going on in Afghanistan, ya know:

In her speech, Ms Asma Jahangir said the civil society had to show its strength on The Mall because the rulers had surrendered to Taliban, handing over the people of Pakistan to barbarians. “We have come here to announce that women in Pakistan will not allow Taliban to terrorise them,” she said.

Most of the world thinks it's ok now to call the instructions for treating slaves in the major religious texts barbarian tribal bullshit. It's high time this kind of stuff is called out, too. There is an important fight going on now regarding women's rights in Southeast Asia and they need the support of enlightened westerners. And keep in mind, no one is trying to forbid a woman from living in total utter enslaved submission if she wants to believe some ill-educated barbarian tribal leaders and their warped interpretations of the Koran; we have women chosing to live in odd cults right here in the U.S.

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That's true, artappraiser. It's all true and it's all a problem, especially our support for Karzai who is no democrat.

But Taplin has a reasonable point here: conservatives in the US suddenly become feminists when they talk about the middle east (well, the non-oil producing countries, anyway) but they're anti-feminist here at home.

This is a travesty, no doubt. And we're paying for it. Hell, we're endorsing it. And this is a huge problem with Obama's incrementalism... we continue to support Bush's Afghan puppet as he violates basic human rights.

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artappraiser, I appreciate and agree with your points. But what destor is pointing out is that at the same time we are railing against ignorant 10th century tribal shit, we are practicing ignorant 16th-20th century imperialist shit in our relations with AfPak; to whit, maintaining that we can fight a kinder gentler war of occupation in the name of all that is virtuous in our democratic republic by simply using unmanned drones, and that somehow at the end of all this, AfPak will be a paragon of liberal democracy and we and the rest of the world will be safe from Al Qaida.

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What can we do in this terrible situation? We can't win a war in this region. We can't change the Arab world. The best we can do is speak out whenever we can. Hillary Clinton must lead this fight for us.

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before we get too morally comfortable in condemning

I found it appalling that NC couldn't prosecute spousal rape until 1993, but I'm completely comfortable in condemning spousal rape.

It's certainly telling of the presumed "rights of men" for our species. Contrarily, I think we must be morally comfortable condemning these acts. Pluralism is the terrain, but basic human rights is our compass.

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