Ehud Barak Does Something Right
If I were an Israeli, I would not have voted for either Binyamin Netanyahu or Ehud Barak. Each already had their chance at the prime minister's job and failed.
In the late 1990s, the electorate chose first Netanyahu and then Barak, and then, having watched their performance in office, quickly sent them packing. The two were the shortest serving elected prime ministers in Israel's history.
It is amazing that either one is given a second chance, but there is nothing intrinsically wrong with second chances. Politicians, like anyone else, are capable of surprising second acts. It is hard to imagine, however, that either of them is likely to stray very far from their respective past histories. Netanyahu will be sixty in a few months; Barak is sixty-seven. By now, each surely is who is he going to be.
Nonetheless, I am glad that Netanyahu and Barak have joined forces in the new government. To Netanyahu's credit, he did not want to lead a far right coalition, dominated by religious fanatics, extreme nationalists, and bigots.
This is not to say that Netanyahu himself is not a man of the right but only that he is utterly secular, modern, and not much of a Greater Israel type. As prime minister, he actually yielded territory to the Palestinians, which is something the man who defeated him in 1999, Ehud Barak, never did.
Essentially, Netanyahu is an opportunist. He wants to be prime minister, but he does not want to lead a government that would, almost surely, produce a major clash with President Barack Obama. His number one goal is significant economic growth that, surely he must grasp, cannot be achieved in a state of endless war.
Ehud Barak is also an opportunist. He is even less of a "party man" than Netanyahu. Back in the 1990s, he even changed the name of his party from Labor to "One Israel." Labor sounded too socialist for Barak, who is by no stretch of the imagination any kind of left-winger. For him, the Labor Party is only a personal vehicle to power. Beyond that, he has no use for it.
So it was inevitable that Barak would try to join Netanyahu's government. Outside of government, he's a has-been. Inside, as minister of defense, he is the number two man in the country, maybe even one-and-a-half. For a man who essentially exists to hold power, being a minor player in the opposition (which will be led by Kadima's Tzipi Livni) is inconceivable.
And, just possibly, there is another reason Barak joined the coalition. Maybe part of the reason he is going in is because saving Israel from the far right is the right thing to do. After all, to win Barak over, Netanyahu had to promise to commit his government to continuing the peace process and keeping the two-state solution alive. He also had to agree not to cut government aid to Israel's most needy (a Netanyahu specialty in the past).
Without Barak, with just nationalists and religious zealots at his side, Netanyahu would have had no choice but to pour state revenues into yeshivas, expand settlements, recommit to Greater Israel, and kill the "two-state" idea. Any moves to liberalize laws on marriage, minority rights, or the role of religion would have had to be shelved as Israel's rabbinic equivalents to Iran's more extreme mullahs made their demands known.
Now he can tell the extremists to back off. If he says "no" to snatching more Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem or imposing more misery on the Arabs of Hebron, he can remind the right that he made certain promises to Barak. If he backs down, as he must on the incendiary plan to build in East Jerusalem's so-called E-1 corridor, which would effectively divide the West Bank into two cantons that almost totally block Palestinian freedom of movement from north to south, he can blame Barak and his partners in Labor.
The other Barak, Barack Obama, will also do his part to limit Netanyahu's freedom of movement. At his press conference this week, Obama said that there is no alternative to the two-state solution and that the status quo is unacceptable.
That is also what Netanyahu's defense minister, who heads a now vital faction in his coalition, will be telling him.
I don't know what Netanyahu believes about Israel's borders. In his heart, he may be a real settlement man. But with Barack and Barak each pressing from the left, Bibi's inner right-winger will hopefully be thoroughly suppressed.
My hope is that Barak (and Barack) will hold Netanyahu's feet to the fire and push him toward an agreement with the Palestinians whether he wants to or not. But that it is pretty "iffy" I'll admit. Neither Barak or Netanyahu seem ready to break out of the box which assumes that Israeli superiority (military and otherwise) is as natural as the sun rise. Each treats Arabs in the high-handed manner of 19th century colonialists; for them, peace and security for Palestinians is a gift they can either bestow or (usually) not.
But Obama knows this and he also knows that he -- not the Israelis -- holds all the cards. Even the "pro-Israel" lobby is unenthusiastic about the new Israeli government and fearful of taking on a popular President on its behalf especially when it knows that it would lose. (American Jews, certainly, will never choose Netanyahu -- about whom they are, at best, ambivalent -- over their own new President whom they adore).
But do Netanyahu and Barak know this? Or are they joining forces to double team President Obama on Iran, with Netanyahu thinking that Barak has a better chance to strong arm Obama (or sweet talk him) on that subject? Remember, for the Israeli establishment, the Palestinians, settlements and the rest are side issues. Iran is the ball game. They will give up a lot to get an American green light on Iran.
But they won't get one. President Obama's groundbreaking message to Iran last week was a strong sign that he has no intention of leading or permitting an attack on Iran. (Obama was neither surprised nor disheartened by the seeming rebuff from the mullahs; his move was a first step and nothing about the Iranian response indicated that further overtures will not be welcomed).
There is also the possibility that Netanyahu and Barak have agreed to try one more war against the Palestinians in Gaza. After all, Barak was the architect of that last blunder while Netanyahu cheered for further escalation from the sidelines. They might decide on another drink from that bottle only to discover that together they could beat their own personal best records for shortest terms ever.
After all, Israel's most popular politician, Tzipi Livni -- determined to wrap up an Israeli-Palestinian deal -- is waiting in the wings. Surely, these two scarred veterans of Israel's political wars are not going to hand it all to her by going to war with the Palestinians again. Again, they might.
Still, we're all better off with Barak in than Barak out. A Netanyahu pushed only from and to the right is a scary thought, obviously to him as well as to us.



















Pretty "iffy" indeed.
Also, via Stephen Walt's blog, Mearsheimer:
http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/03/26/please_tell_me_where_is_israel_headed
March 27, 2009 11:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Me2
March 27, 2009 11:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Very good commentary, MJ, incorporating small but vital details (such as "Israel lobby" in quotes where it should always go, if used at all). Your analysis of Barak's modus operandi sounds spot on to me, and I think the emphasis on Iran is convincing and well-put.
A big question mark, of course, remains our Barack - with the c standing for courage, creativity, and candor (to name a few weak spots of their Barak). The ? applies not so much to Obama's intentions or articulateness, but to the supply of his widely and thinly stretched time, energy and political capital. There are no viable solutions in sight that do not involve his skillfully and more or less simultaneously wielding some major carrots and sticks with Iran, with at least some substantial element of the Palestinians, and with the new odd bedfellows in the Israel regime. As you rightly stress, holding the Israelis' "feet to the fire" is the bedrock sin quo non in this process. Not because America needs to be biased against the Israelis, but because it has been defacto such an utter tool in the hands of the ultra fanatical settlers for so long. They have had ridiculously disproportionate influence in both Israeli politics and US politics for far too long. The most shrewd minds, Henry Kissinger, Jimmy Carter, and even Ariel Sharon, realized that already long ago. Let us hope (and insist!) that the American Jews who adore their president now realize it too, and also realize the crucial importance of demanding that something major be done about it, so that Obama's team in fact has a FULL arsenal of tools it can apply to the fiendishly difficult peace process.
The New York Times had a good op-ed today, which I suppose you read: an elegant and forceful articulation of what, one way or another, reasonable people of good will around the world can only hope for. But hope is not enough. We have been hoping since the assassination of Rabin, and it has produced zero lasting results. Much, much more than hope is needed. Action, significant action, has to come from the U.S. government and against the outrageous shackling of it by the settler- fanatics and their paranoid but hyper-organized US tools. Or the desert mirage of peace will remain a mirage.
March 27, 2009 11:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
First, to characterize the settlers as "ultra-fanatical" misrepresents the situation. There are of course many who fit that description. But most do not. And while it is true that the pro-settler parties wield a disproportionate influence in Israeli politics, they would easily be defeated by the broad Israeli middle if that group thought a real peace was there for the taking. That's what made the Oslo process possible in the 1990's. I said this before: the Israeli public needs to be able to envision the end of the conflict. Once they can do that, they will turn on the settlers. As long as a final resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict is impossible to imagine, they are not going to line up against the settlers. It's that simple.
Second, American influence will be limited as long as point #1 is in force. The US can cajole and threaten, but the end of the conflict must be in sight for the Israeli public to budge. That's why the issue of Hamas recognition of Israel, which seems like a minor point to non-Israelis, is such a big deal inside Israel.
March 27, 2009 1:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Say the settler agents and dupes: "The Israeli public needs to be able to envision the end of the conflict. Once they can do that, they will turn on the settlers...It's that simple."
Say the Hamas brainwashees and tools: "the Palestinian public needs to be able to envision the end of the occupation, brutal oppression, and theft of their property. Once they can do that, they will turn on their terrorists...It's that simple.
Say knowledgeable, loyal Americans: "the Palestinian public and Israeli public needs to finally realize that the world has much much more than enough of their mayhem, arrogance, deceit and hypocrisy, and America needs to lead the civilized world in knocking some common sense and basic morality into them (after liberating its own government from kowtowing to the settler agents and dupes masquerading as the "Jewish vote") and then both beleaguered Mideast peoples will finally turn on their respective terrorists...It's that simple."
March 27, 2009 4:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Off topic, but you were arguing with someone a few days ago about whether Carter had given a green light to Iraq to invade Iran. I couldn't find any info on this in a quick google search, but coincidentally, a few days later someone wrote this--
Link
I admit I haven't looked at the evidence myself.
Back to the topic. I tend to agree with you regarding the need for people on both sides of the I/P conflict to police their own terrorists and if they won't do it, then the US should exert pressure. I don't have much faith yet that Obama will do this.
March 27, 2009 7:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you DonaldJ for the interesting link. Ironically, the one key bit of original documentation here is a 1981 memo from Alexander Haig entitled "Talking Points"!
Taking the liberty here of following through on this side issue, I will mention that -from what I can glean from google- the information flow re this documenting memo emanates from two investigative journalists Robert Parry (your link) and Barry Lando, both apparently possessing considerable credentials, and Iranian President Ali Khamenei's rebuttal of Barack Obama's recent "olive branch." Lando's book "Web of Deceit" discusses the 1980 attack on Iran by Iraq, and Parry (an important early investigator of Oliver North's Iran-Contra scandal) says he discovered the Haig memo amongst paper apparently left "behind by accident in a remote Capitol Hill storage room" following a 1993 Congressional investigation into Reagan's "October [1980] Surprise." Evidently Khamanei got onto the topic of US involvement in Saddam's 1980 attack on Iran by reading, directly or indirectly, Lando and/or Parry.
See here:
http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/xfile5.html
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/032609.html
At any rate, the essential statement of Haig in this memo comes as part of his report on April, 1981 meetings he had with Egypt's Sadat and Saudi prince (later King) Fahd) and reads thusly:
“It was also interesting to confirm that President Carter gave the Iraqis a green light to launch the war against Iran through Fahd.”
If you trace further through these various links, Khamenei used the same phrase in his speech last week, "green light", and though it is not clear who "confirmed" this green light story to Haig in April 1981, Parry thinks it must have been Sadat, Fahd or other "senior Arabs."
A key finding of Lando and Parry is how much lying and deceit at very high levels of the US and basically every other government has been going on throughout recent Mideast history.
The Haig memo that Parry has posted on the web looks authentic to me, and I have no reason to doubt that Haig's confirmation statement in it -that I just quoted above- is true.
Were the unnamed Arabs who "confirmed" the "green light" story telling Haig the truth? Hard to say for sure (Carter apparently says no and Haig refuses comment) but even assuming they were, this remains quite a FAR CRY from what was being claimed on TPM the other day: not that Saddam got a green light for a September, 1980 attack on Iran that he wanted to make anyway, but that he launched a "proxy war" against Iran on "behalf" of the U.S. There is no evidence of that claim anywhere in sight here.
An interesting lesson on how conspiracy theory myths and high-level propaganda (I refer specifically to Khamanei's unolive branch reply to Obama) mutate and propagate.
Thanks again for the link.
March 27, 2009 10:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Correction:
"no evidence of that claim"
in the 6th line from the bottom in my prior comment
should have been
no evidence SUPPORTING that claim
March 27, 2009 11:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Credit where it is due: One of the more perceptive columns I've read, MJ. Thanks.
I'm a bit torn over this. Part of me wants Netanyahu's right wing demagoguery to be put to the test of actual governance. However, I recognize that the potentially disastrous consequences. Putting aside my pique, I agree that the moderating influence is likely to be a net positive for Israel.
There is an apparent contradiction though. If Barak is solely driven by a will to power, as you suggest, what makes you believe he will press Netanyahu from the left? Also, while you point out that Netanyahu alone among the two actually yielded territory, you conspicuously fail to mention that Barak offered to cede far more than Netanyahu is ever likely to (as well ignoring Barak's decision to withdraw from Lebanon).
One question left unanswered: If you could vote, MJ, who would you have chosen? Meretz? Kadima? Inquiring minds wish to know.
March 27, 2009 12:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
AG:
Sorry AG, I'm afraid your praise is misplaced. I understand that the Web is inherently volatile medium, but this MJ's comment struck me as such a specimen of pure unadulterated idiocy, that I couldn't resist the urge to save it (the first and only example of such action on my part so far). Just read and enjoy: I thought I'd have to wait for more than 12 weeks to dig it out, but no.
Now, please don't get me wrong - I've been greatly impressed by Barak's views, personality, style and command of the issues when my wife and I had the privilege of attending his lecture here in the Bay Area a few years ago. I read interesting articles by him and about him before and after that lecture. I hope he'll come back to the Prime Minister's office some day, as has his mentor of blessed memory Yitzhak Rabin. More importantly, I hope that his decision to join the Israeli Government coalition now is good for Israel. But it seems to me that MJ's numerous postings, especially of late, are like songs of a male bird during the mating season - what's important is the volume and the duration of the sound, not the "contents" of the song itself.
Sure, I might be wrong, but unlike MJ I'm quite conscious of that fact.
March 27, 2009 5:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
That is indeed a quote worth saving - perhaps its intemperate statements like those that have caused MJR to hold his fire recently. I can't imagine that the IPF would want its policy director spouting such nonsense.
In this case, I think MJ makes a good case that Barak being in the government is a positive development without the bombast that I so often find repellant.
A lot of good it did me - the Israel-is-always-wrong crowd is letting me have it. I think I'm done with these discussions. Not worth the price.
(I can already anticipate mythbuster's reply: "You won't be missed." Beat you to it.)
March 27, 2009 5:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
" I think I'm done with these discussions. Not worth the price."
Boy, you would have lasted about a nanosecond back in the olden days of MJ TPMCafe blogging of myth and legend.
The discussions you have contributed here to are quite genteel by comparison.
But, taking pity on you, I immediately thought to direct you to a site and blogger I thought you may find more to your sensitivities:
http://themagneszionist.blogspot.com/
heh.
March 28, 2009 1:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Heh indeed.
We could have a beer as long as we stayed away from anything having to do with Israel Palestine.
March 28, 2009 1:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lipstick on a pig.
March 27, 2009 12:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agree.
Also acceptable : Poh-TAY-toe, Poh-TAH-toe
March 27, 2009 1:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
So peace is going to break out any minute ?
You know what would be great for these little debates ? Get some comments from people who are stuck living in Gaza. Just find out what they think about the differences between this guy and that guy being prime minister or defense minister.
The discussion between Americans who draw fine distinctions where there is no difference is going nowhere.
Who wants to bet five bucks ? No peace in the next five years.
March 27, 2009 1:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Pretty sure you're right. If you talked to the man on the street in Gaza, chances are they'd say that peace isn't going to happen any time soon.
Then they'd probably tell you, without any trace of irony whatsoever, that that's why they support the ongoing Hamas war against Israel and why the rocket launches make so much sense.
March 27, 2009 1:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Pretty sure you're right. If you talked to the man on the street in Israel, chances are they'd say that peace isn't going to happen any time soon.
Then they'd probably tell you, without trace of irony whatsoever, why they support the ongoing attack and siege on Gaza and why the the attack and siege makes so much sense.
March 27, 2009 2:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
BluePearl: BTD doesn't understand the difference between "quiet" and "peace."
If Mandela had maintained "quiet," a White Afrikaner would still be president of the Republic of South Africa.
March 27, 2009 2:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
BTD: "...Then they'd probably tell you, without any trace of irony whatsoever, that that's why they support the ongoing Hamas war against Israel and why the rocket launches make so much sense..."
Excuse me... When all that's left of their homes is rubble; where their food shelves are bare; where there's no means to economically trade with their neighbors; where Israel continues to control the borders [land, sea and sky] -- Where the heck did you get the idea that the Palestinians whose kids are dying because Israel won't let medical supplies through want 'either' Hamas or Israel to continue to bomb the shit out of each other? Knowing that Israel can do a far far far better job? Come on...
However, on the other hand what 'we are' told:
After Israel broke the cease-fire:
March 27, 2009 2:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Facts are troubling things.
Clearly, you are an anti-Semite. (sarcasm.)
March 27, 2009 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
These discussions are frustrating and always end up in the same place - talking past each other, convinced in the righteousness of his cause.
The polls you refer to are a bit skewed. The first - indicating 81% support for the - was conducted very early on during the aerial bombardment. It's not surprising that the number was so high. Even if the number is somewhat lower now, it's also not surprising that Israelis supported taking action against Hamas rocket fire (please let's not get into another tit for tat over who violated the cease fire, etc.).
The second gauges Israeli support the Saudi peace proposal that includes a right of return to Palestinian refugees, i.e., an end to Israel as we know it. I'm surprised that a third of Israelis expressed support for it.
The third is the most significant and indicates 51% opposition to a Palestinian state in Judea Samaria "[i]n light of the experience with disengagement, the Second Lebanon War and the war against Hamas in Gaza." Sounds like a loaded question to me. Nothing in there to shake my confidence in what BradTheDad is saying: Israelis would more than likely overwhelmingly support a Palestinian state provided that one could be established consistent with their legitimate security concerns.
March 27, 2009 3:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
81% Even with 'margins of error'... I still think that's pretty HIGH don't yer think?
"...Nothing in there to shake my confidence in what BradTheDad is saying: Israelis would more than likely overwhelmingly support a Palestinian state provided that one could be established consistent with their legitimate security concerns..."
Didn't think so. Status quo is working too well for yah.
March 27, 2009 4:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm giggling: "Israelis would more than likely overwhelmingly support a Palestinian state provided that one could be established consistent with their legitimate security concerns."
Translation: If the Zionists control a Palestinian entity forever, they will recognize its right to exist.
March 27, 2009 4:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
No translation of your translation is necessary. You are free to support the armed resistance and all the wonderful things it has wrought.
March 28, 2009 1:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Who said anything about Violence? I believe in boycott.
March 29, 2009 3:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
In light of some of the circular dialogue on the subject, I have been thinking of an Israel/Palestine-o-meter that could accurately predict one's response to the range of issues. It consists of a few questions, each to be answered on a sliding scale of 1-10:
(1) Whether one views the creation of the State of Israel as just and fair or as an injustice against the rights of Palestinians (1 being completely just and 10 being criminal);
(2) whether one assigns primary responsibility for the Palestinian refugee problem to Israel or the Palestinian/Arab nations (1 being Israel's responsibility and 10 being the sole responsibility of the Palestinians and/or Arab regimes);
(3) whether one views the failure to resolve these issues peacefully can be attributed primarily to (a) Israeli or (b) Palestinian/Arab intransigence.
March 27, 2009 3:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
One could also well imagine a bias-o-meter. The same three questions rated for relevance as to what America's Mideast policy should be (0 = no relevance = bias-free, 10 = great relevance = totally biased). This would need, however, to be jointly measured with a knowledge-o-meter (0 = awareness that fundamentally both Palestinians and Israelis are so phenomenally guilty of such long-standing atrocities that there is really no point, for an AMERICAN, at least, in trying to rate levels of culpability between them on a scale that essentially goes from deep guilt to colossal guilt, 10 = great susceptibility to attributing value to the back and forth yelling of insults by propagandists for both sides that often passes for "debate" on the Mideast in America.)
March 27, 2009 4:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Are you for real?
"(2) whether one assigns primary responsibility for the Palestinian refugee problem to Israel or the Palestinian/Arab nations (1 being Israel's responsibility and 10 being the sole responsibility of the Palestinians and/or Arab regimes);"
I actually assigned the primary responsibility for Kosovar Albanian refugees to Albania, Macedonia, and Greece. The World community erroneously assigned the responsibility to Milosovic. But you tell people that, and they just won't believe it.
I guess the world is just bigoted against Serbs.
(Yes. This is sarcasm. And your argument is just as stupid.)
March 27, 2009 4:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Mythbuster: I wasn't making an argument one way or another, but wouldn't expect you to recognize that. Your reasoning is typified by your statement yesterday that Hamas' agreeing to abide by previous agreements would be the same as forgetting the Nakba. Ain't much to discuss if that's how you feel.
March 27, 2009 5:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
There is plenty to discuss. I just think that Palestinians have just as much a right to re-negotiate agreements, engage in pre-emptive strikes, and take whatever action they need to defend themselves as Zionists do. Shocking, no. The Palestinians have a right to defend themselves.
BTW, I respond to you because all your posts contain the false assumptions that (a) Israel is the victim and (2) yet, sigh, they are trying so very hard to end this conflict.
Neither assumption is true.
Finally, unless you are George Bush, you talk to people who disagree with you.
March 27, 2009 6:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
MB: As you well know, I have posted comments in which Israel is not the victim. In particular, I recall several weeks ago that you specifically asked me to come up with instances where Israel has been in the wrong. I also recall that your reply to my examples was something along the lines of "that's fair," and not in a snarky way.
It is true that I often defend Israel to counter what I see as a one-sided debate here because, though it may come as a surprise to you, there is more than one narrative in this conflict worthy of respect and consideration. I also respect and consider the Palestinian narrative and am not dismissive of their cause. You, on the other hand, seem unable or unwilling to accept anything other than the prized myths of one side. Rather than busting myths, you have substituted a countermythology that is equally divorced from reality.
Hence, there isn't much to discuss. And I'm not George W. Bush.
March 28, 2009 2:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
AG: " You, on the other hand, seem unable or unwilling to accept anything other than the prized myths of one side. Rather than busting myths, you have substituted a countermythology that is equally divorced from reality."
Nonsense. It is not a "myth" to oppose Zionist ethnic cleansing. You always go generic when your arguments are flapping in the wind.
In Texas, we call that "moving the goalposts."
March 29, 2009 3:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I stand by my statement: I am not George W. Bush.
March 29, 2009 5:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
mythbuster I think your analogy here is not one that you should push. In 1880 over half of the population of Kosovo were Serbian. Immigration over the next century turned that country into a Moslem (ie Albanian) majority. Much of this immigration occured while Tito ruled Yugoslavia. It is on this basis that the west rejected Serbian dominion over this land in favor of the Albanians. By this logic then the Jews should rule Palestine if they manage to bring in more Jewish immigrants? Are you sure you want to make this argument?
March 27, 2009 11:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Armchair Guerilla: Don't you think that the way you've set up your meter is reflective of a mindset that only perpetuates the conflict. For example, this question,
...sets up a false dichotomy, in my view. It's entirely possible to see the creation of Israel as both just and fair and at the same timean injustice against the rights of Palestinians. There really isn't a right answer; it all depends from whose perspective one views the conflict and neither is really wrong.
From the perspective of the Israelis, the creation of Israel, as a haven from the horrors visited upon the European Jews in WWII and earlier, was entirely fair and just. Similarly, from the point of view of the Palestinians, the nakba was indeed a horrible injustice, as they were not responsible for the conditions that led to the creation of the state of Israel on land that had been theirs for generations. Why should anyone be expected to choose between these two views, since both are true?
That's why the conflict is so deeply tragic but also it provides the opportunity. What's needed for peace, it seems to me, is for the argument over who is to blame to cease and for the people on both sides to be asked to view the conflict through the eyes of the other.
March 27, 2009 11:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
"What's needed for peace, it seems to me, is for the argument over who is to blame to cease and for the people on both sides to be asked to view the conflict through the eyes of the other."
Wordie: I'm not a religious man, but I will allow myself a silent "Amen" to that.
That was the actual point, if awkwardly expressed, of the Israel/Palestine-o-meter. The arguments, it seems to me, are so pre-determined; ultimately, one's perspective on so many of the issues we dance around here come down to people's deeply held beliefs of how they view the conflict and which side can stake a greater claim to "victim" status (or the flipside - which side is the more blameworthy) based upon historic injustices. Hence, those who view Israel primarily as a neo-colonial oppressor are unable to identify with the counter narrative, and vice-versa.
It all seems to come down to the same fundamental questions - I tried to identify three. It was not intended to set up a dichotomy. One can, as you say, see the creation of Israel as both just and fair and at the same time an injustice against the rights of Palestinians. I know I do. That's why I propose a sliding scale - such a hypothetical person would score somewhere in the middle on that question: let's say between 4 and 6. As for myself, I don't think any of the answers are clear cut - I was just identifying the extremes.
Once we know where people stand on these questions, though, maybe it would be possible to accept where the other is coming from (provided it's not on the extreme end of the scale) and find some discussion in the (reasonable, IMHO) middle.
March 28, 2009 2:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Under the "nothing new under the sun" category, armchair....If recall that there once was a very active member who also posted a lot on M.J.'s threads, Howard C. Berkowitz. He was a Renaissance man type guy, and also a proud geek, whose had this vice (in mho) that he liked to try to reform trollishness, breaking the "don't feed" rule. I recall that for a while he tried a numeric system to peg standard responses on MJ's threads. (BTW, it wasn't M.J.'s threads that made him give up, he left with the frustrations of the Obamamania influx and the concurrent software problems and never came back.)
March 28, 2009 7:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
OOps, corrected link to Howard C. Berkowitz just in case someone wants to go down memory lane.
March 28, 2009 8:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
AG:
Heck, I engage in quickie strikes every other week around these parts, which by the way are unlawful and unprotected concerted actions under federal labor law. The theory is that, in fairness to the employer (hee), you're either on strike or you're not, and in America, perhaps only in America, the Labor Board has decided that the employer must be given the chance to decide whether it wants to hire scabs. Yea, I know all about balance arguments.
But, I digress. In the spirit of true solidarity, and because everybody worth anything around here (why you would care what mythbuster thinks is beyond me) knows you to be a good and well-meaning, peace-loving soul, I will stand on the picket line with you at least until you're ready to return. Yet another contribution we Hebrews have given to this country is a rich and colorful labor history, a tradition which by the way is what helped to preserve my ties to the tribe back in the day when I was oh soooo groovy too and believed that Israel was the root cause of all evil. Some of us been there and done that way back in the day when zionisim was first declared to be racism, etc.
Yasher koach and in solidarity, AG.
Bruce
March 28, 2009 9:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Meant to be a reply to my buddy AG, but I was reading AA and she made me think fondly back to good ole' Howard.
March 28, 2009 9:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks Bruce. No drama. No vacation. Just frustration at the endless circle jerk.
Now I have to go back and start putting those criminals back on the streets!
March 28, 2009 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I miss old HCBerkowitz. Thanks for the trip down Memory Ln. He agrivated me alot, and I mean that in the best sense of the word. The kind of agrivation born of tenacious argument that should bring out the best in our thinking and writing.
March 28, 2009 10:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
By the way, BK, if you haven't seen this already, go to youtube and search for Kafka International Airport - an onion news piece that's quite hysterical.
March 28, 2009 2:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good Lord, that was fantastic. The cutaways alone were quite hilarious. Thanks AG.
March 29, 2009 7:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
"...that either of them is likely to stray very far from their respective past histories..." I agree.
"...not much of a Greater Israel type..." Maybe not for religious reasons -- But I think he remembers that because he didn't hold his promise the first time around to push for his total 'security' land grab it didn't help with his re-election campaign.
"...He wants to be prime minister, but he does not want to lead a government that would, almost surely, produce a major clash with President Barack Obama..." Are you sure about that? From recent events, I bet he thinks he might be able to easily twist a few arms in Congress and within the administration for some major leverage.
"...His number one goal is significant economic growth that, surely he must grasp, cannot be achieved in a state of endless war..." I think Israel does pretty well with its arms trade and military software sales? And with his continued use of the not so subtle 'nuke' card to push for his 'economic' supremacy plan in the region.
"...Even the "pro-Israel" lobby is unenthusiastic about the new Israeli government and fearful of taking on a popular President on its behalf especially when it knows that it would lose..."Huh? Please give me something to tell me that the "pro-Israel" lobby is unenthusisatic about Israel's plans? What about the Freeman episode, lobbying for full support of bombing the sh*t of Gaza, the Kyle-Lieberman amendment [definite Bibi style]? Where's the evidence of this? Or, is it they want to appear 'moderate' up against madman Lieberman and Bibi, but still at the same time push for a military strike on Iran?
At the moment, it looks to me like Bibi is using Barak for window dressing.
March 27, 2009 4:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
MJ writes: "My hope is that Barak (and Barack) will hold Netanyahu's feet to the fire and push him toward an agreement with the Palestinians"
March 27, 2009 4:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Notice we talk about "security" not "rights." Maybe if we talked about rights we would make more progress. Security is code for "Israel wants to keep Palestinian land."
March 27, 2009 4:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
"...that either of them is likely to stray very far from their respective past histories..."
As "opportunists" I don't think they have really changed much, but over the years don't you they would have learned from their mistakes and now have become more politically savvy, and that political survival is going to be more important to them, than being the figureheads of a fictitious peace deal?
From my understanding when Netanyahu first came into power his:
Even when Netanyahu tried to defend the peace deal with the Palestinians the backlash from the right was formidable, especially from 'the settlers' that had backed in him early on. Also noting, back then, nearly seventy-five per cent of those questioned in Israel supported the peace deal.
When elections came -- he lost to Barak [noting the peace negotiations were not the only reason for his downfall], however:
Noting that the polls are very different now. Plus, the fact that the settlers are definitely more 'settled in' now, have increased their numbers, nurtured militant and religious alliances, and I would say have gained even more political clout in the US -- Do you think that Netanyahu or Barak are going to go up against these settlers for a second round?
With Livni, she might be popular over in Israel, but from what I've been reading over here in "Lobby Land" she hasn't had much luck flogging 'her' two-state solution with our lot.
Netanyahu and the uber pro-Israel advocates over here are looking pretty strong at the moment.
March 27, 2009 4:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
They may look strong, and they certainly seem to have huge influence relative to their numbers. But it might be useful to review those numbers. Off the top of my head the more extreme Israeli settler maniacs (or "uber pro-Israel advocates" if you prefer) number in the tens of thousands, or maybe low hundreds of thousands at most. Contrast that with 5 million Jewish Americans, 300 million non-Jewish Americans, 8 million other Jews including 4 million other Jewish Israelis, 200 million Arabs, 1 billion Moslems, 2 billion Christians, plus 3 or so billion others.
The paranoia of these settlers is significant, but not wholly without rational basis. The hypocrisy and arrogance of their US mouthpieces may be a different matter.
March 27, 2009 6:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think you are missing my point...
Regardless whether most of them appear 'gentle' farm folk -- They are still hiding behind the highly influential uber Israel settler leadership and settling on land which they have no right to settle on. They are very much part of the problem, and are growing at an alarming rate -- Peace Now who monitors settlement construction on a daily basis says settlement building grew by 60% from 2007 to 2008. With more construction on the way.
The relative smaller faction of truly belligerent settlers and their leadership I agree one thing -- but the sheer numbers of willing mindless, or not so mindless settler sheep who seem more than willing to act illegally and give leverage to these fanatics can't be ignored in my mind, nor given a pass.
March 27, 2009 7:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was specifically commenting on your remark
"Netanyahu and the uber pro-Israel advocates over here are looking pretty strong at the moment"
taking "over here" to mean in the U.S. (e.g. what you call "lobby land", giving the example of the L.A. convention center) in other words OUTSIDE of the West Bank or even Israel.
So I don't think I was "missing" THAT point.
I do however agree with the thrust of your last post: i.e. about the fanatics and sheep in Israel.
March 27, 2009 11:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
OK -- I get you.
However, if we are talking about 'over here' -- numbers don't seem to really matter do they? What really seems to matter is in which States they reside e.g NY, CA, FL. How much money they donate to Israeli causes, PAC's etc, even candidates in other States, and how much leverage they have in Congress.
March 28, 2009 1:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is all true, but what also matters is how 99.9% of the rest of American electorate sits on their hands. Tolerable barely, perhaps if the .1% is simply poaching off the public like any run of-the-mill special interest group. Not acceptable if the special interest group is a bunch of foreign kooks with a bad Warsaw ghetto complex and no moral scruples against lying, trickery, character assassination and hypocrisy as a way of life, who are effectively exercising a veto power over US policy towards a very important region of the world. If some sizable fraction of the 99.9% were to act in a focused way (not distracted by anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, or Marxist mumbo jumbo, for example) against the .1% we might (possibly) see some actual progress.
March 28, 2009 4:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Perhaps, TPMCafe should be renamed the 'Intra-Jewish Quarel'.
I'm sure that Josh would avoid disagreeing with my suggestion.
TheOkie
March 27, 2009 7:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's a possible look into the future...
Helena Cobban [Bio] interviews a senior Likud security affairs specialist Efraim Inbar. "...Inbar is Director of the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies [Interview] at Bar-Ilan University, and has often advised Likud leaders in the past. The views he expressed in the interview coincided at several points with those expressed in an op-ed article published in Yediot Aharonoth today by former Netanyahu national-security adviser Giora Eiland..."
There's no holding back from this guy... many won't be surprised at the possible game Here's a possible look into the future...
Helena Cobban [Bio] interviews a senior Likud secrity affairs specialist Efraim Inbar. "...Inbar is Director of the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies at Bar-Ilan University, and has often advised Likud leaders in the past. The views he expressed in the interview coincided at several points with those expressed in an op-ed article published in Yediot Aharonoth today by former Netanyahu national-security adviser Giora Eiland..."
There's no holding back from this guy. Many won't be surprised at his predictions and how Netanyahu will play the game.
h/t: Philip Weiss: 'We will play with the Americans'--senior Likud strategist'
h/t: Philip Weiss: 'We will play with the Americans'--senior Likud strategist'
March 27, 2009 8:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sorry... I hate this edit box I truly do. I just can't get used to it. Just a grace period of one minute for editing would be a god send...
March 27, 2009 8:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
So the same old debate continues ... no word at all from the people who need to be heard from ... just the same name-calling back and forth ...
No possibility of any conclusion ... no dialogue with The Other People ...
Soothing, in a way. Sort of like peeing your pants in a wool suit ...
March 27, 2009 8:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Still talking about Israel, I see. Yawn.
Poor MJ . . . OCD must be a terrible affliction to live with.
March 27, 2009 9:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
We are settling the issue - what to do with a couple million people - without hearing from even one of those people.
We are also debating without agreeing on facts - in this way :
Were a hundred people killed ? No one was killed !
Is is raining outside ? No, it is quite sunny !
Neat trick, huh ?
March 27, 2009 9:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fair point, but there are other issues as well, such as the twenty or thirty thousand, give or take some thousands, of (foreign) people who most of our national legislators are effectively kissing the behinds of without heeding OUR interests.
March 27, 2009 11:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
And how do you think the poor schmuck on the street in al Birah or Bat Yam feels about having their homes made into the world's most profitable international arms bazaar? If you guys don't like it, go somewhere else and compare your fucking NCAA brackets.
March 29, 2009 8:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
...MJ: But Obama knows this and he also knows that he -- not the Israelis -- holds all the cards. Even the "pro-Israel" lobby is unenthusiastic about the new Israeli government and fearful of taking on a popular President on its behalf especially when it knows that it would lose..."
Hmmm... Found this today:
This article was apparently posted on Huffingtonpost yesterday morning, amazingly enough, last time I checked [this morning] there were still had no comments? Strange. Also, I could not find a copy on the commondreams site where I usual find Zune's work?
I think the time has come to look at those Democratic [and republican] legislators that signed off on this bill. A bill where the 'obvious' intent is to find as many ways as possible to stop the Palestinians from getting a State of their own.
Honest brokers -- yeah right.
March 28, 2009 1:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
MJ, I wrote a few months ago, there's a Nobel out there for the pol who is smart enough to take the screemingly-obvious deal. A pretty tawdry Nobel I reckon, but still I betcha Bibi wants to see that thing on his mantle, and not on that of future Prime Minister Tzipi Livni when he goes over to have tea with Her Excellency.
With her waiting in the wings as you say, the easy thing for him to do is make the self-evident, inevitable, long-long-overdo deal, and accept those accolades. The man who untied the Gordian knot!/Statesman of the ages!/said it couldn't be done! He can go and tell the far-right expropriationist yahoos that he's really totally with them that the best would be to blast those dreaded Palestinians into outer space, but that that *horrible* Obama made him do it and he had no choice.
With him as Laureate but still in office, he can even scheme to have them rename Tel Aviv as e.g., "Bibiville," or would that be an Overreach? If he is the opportunist you say he is, the above is the right play for him, and he can offer Livni the Ambassadorship to Palestine!
March 29, 2009 8:17 AM | Reply | Permalink