Child Abuse
The Israeli press is full of stories, now broadcast around the world, of Israeli soldiers acting ruthlessly in Gaza. In various reported cases, soldiers revealed a cavalier attitude toward the lives of civilians, including women and children; consistently, they used overwhelming force--artillery against rifles in built up neighborhoods, say--to protect the lives of fellow soldiers. We are now hearing, in addition, knowing comments about the rules of engagement and the ethics of war. According to one scholar who helped write the IDF's code of conduct, a soldier has to "do his utmost" to avoid civilian casualties and that involves taking some risk. "From the testimonies of these soldiers, it sounds like they didn't practice this norm."
Let me get this straight. We take tens of thousands of 18 and 19-year-olds, young people who are little more than children themselves, and at a time of life when showing the utmost cool is a kind of sexual ante; a time when ideas about the world are largely received wisdoms; when bodies are at their utmost strength but so is the fear of death, which only reinforces the fear of displaying cowardice; when the people from whom wisdoms are received are parents or mentors loved to the utmost; when minds are just intimidated enough about life's scrum to feel utmost gratitude for family and commonwealth--when the desire to prove one's loyalty is at its most intense.
Then we take these youth--for God's sake, kids who can barely even remember the time of Rabin's assassination--and tell them that the Arabs, deep down, will never want a Jewish state in the neighborhood; that, in any case, the land is sacred, and giving ground is an utmost sin of Jewish law, as is showing mercy to those who would kill you; that "Oslo" offered Palestinians a deal with utmost generosity, but that they came back with terrorism nevertheless; that (though this much has been obvious) terrorism can come in any form, male and female, young and old; that protecting our civilians from random cruelties is the reason they are there.
By any chance, could you shed a little more light on the actual allegations being made in the Hebrew press? I am unable to translate the Hebrew press, and I've only been able to read what was reported in Haaretz yesterday, and then in YNET and the JPost. Haaretz, as I understand things, was supposed to provide more anecdotal information today and I don't see that on their internet page. Thanks.
March 20, 2009 8:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ah yes, those poor soldiers. Such children! Such victims!
The IDF code and the ostentatious hand-wringing about it are a crock. The IDF was sent into Gaza to inflict collective punishment on the Gazans - husbands, wives, children, houses and pets - for the sin of being governed by Hamas. They did what they were sent to do. And they did what Israeli armies have been sent out to do for decades. It's not as though Gaza is the first time we have seen the Israeli state engaged in collective punishment.
And the poor, poor lads were old enough to know what they are doing.
March 20, 2009 8:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
They murder 400 Palestinians children, and we are supposed to feel sorry for them. You know, life was hard for Milosovic's soldiers too.
March 21, 2009 5:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Even people like Jeff Goldberg and me, who don't reflexively blame Israel for everything, are repulsed by what was reported in Haaretz yesterday:
http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/03/haaretz_expose.php
I do think it's appropriate, however, to know of the specific allegations. From what Dr. Avishai is writing, most of it seems to be in the Hebrew press, and the English-language source, Haaretz, has reported no new information today as I understood they were supposed to. This is what Haaretz posted yesterday, and consists of what was apparently alleged by two individuals (and I think Dr. Avishai can confirm that one of the individuals was interviewed by Israel's Channel 2 and he apparently was not in Gaza during the invasion and is basing his allegations on what he heard):
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072231.html
Has anyone seen anything else so far? I've scanned the English-language Israeli press and I haven't seen anything new. That's why I've asked Dr. Avishai to report on what else has been reported in the Hebrew press. Otherwise we're just playing the echo chamber game.
March 20, 2009 8:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
There are these clues regarding what you ask in the New York Times coverage today
(Note to M.J. Rosenberg, and all the others complaining yesterday about the U.S. media not covering something that a blogger only discovered at 10pm the night before: it's page A1 in today's print edition.):
So it was "leaked" to only those two papers, from a military prep course. I don't really understand that source fully. Why does one have to "leak" from a journal published by a military prep course? Isn't that journal publicly available? Is Oranim Academic College government controlled and their journals top secret? That's confusing.
Then there's this:
Could that have caused government interference with Ha'aretz publishing another installment as promised? Or is it a delay for further fact checking because it has been challenged by someone else?
Time will tell, I am sure. Nobody in the Israeli press is just going to let it drop.
March 20, 2009 10:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
The Times is doing a good job on this story. It is indeed page one today.
And the IDF is not rebutting any of it. It will investigate, it says.
Question to any US vets out there. It seems to me that our rules of engagement are very different from Israel's i.e. GI's are not permitted to fire unless absolutely sure who the target is and what threat they pose.
But I don't really know. Can someone elaborate.
In any case, I expect many more revelations of these atrocities from Gaza.
March 20, 2009 11:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
"I expect many more revelations of these atrocities from Gaza."
I hope not. And I hope you hope not too.
March 20, 2009 1:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Excellent sleuthing AA. BTW, I did notice MJ's bait and switch on the New York Times for not covering this story, but he does seem contrite enough to get a bye this time. The story itself seems to have disappeared, perhaps at least until tomorrow. There is no mention of it in Haaretz, and I guess my request for elaboration from Dr. Avishai on the stuff he has seen in the Hebrew press is unworthy of response.
I do have two observations. First, I have no doubt that horrible things were done in Gaza, things I would never attempt to justify. Second, the story underlying Dr. Avishai's passionate analysis of kids with guns, an analysis I relate to as the father of three in that age group, has now been heard around the world, and the story is particularly profound because of its systemic implications with respect to the unique nature of the IDF. This is not a story about individual or even multiple acts of brutality by soldiers in war. This is the story that fits like a glove with the world view that the zionist entity is uniquely evil. That's not Dr. Avishai's angle in this piece, so perhaps I should have raised my observations in MJ's thread (if only his storyline would just stay constant).
In the end, I think it's proper to ask for more information about the factual predicate that is now simply presumed here and elsewhere. Indeed, at this point, no matter what is reported in the coming days, Haaretz has established that the kids in the IDF are uniquely brutal and inhumane, just as the zionist entity is uniquely racist, brutal and inhumane.
And so it goes.
March 20, 2009 5:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hello, Bruce I hope you’re doing well, and I hope my comments on this subject don’t offend as that’s not my intention. I don't think its possible to assess situations like this, in any speedy fashion, with factual predicates from news reports alone whatever "side" they're taking). Most of the "facts" appearing in the news are from officials with a vested interest in framing the narrative, as we've learned so well here at home where our officials censored coverage of the war, too.
The facts of the '06 Lebanon war was that clusterbombs were not being used and civilians and civilian infrastructure were not being targeted. Ultimately, these facts were proven wrong and the impartial observers and eyewitness testimony of people suffering the attacks bore out. I think reports from the UN and humanitarian groups and victims should be given credence until and unless proven otherwise.
I was simply stunned by Israel’s attack on a trapped population, more so than an armed force, whose crime has only been being who they are; a people who have been oppressed for generations, and in recent years, encaged, isolated from the world and starved of necessities. The unconditional support and encouragement of the U.S government for this action and silence of other governments only makes it more appalling.
March 21, 2009 8:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don:
It's good to see you back at the Cafe. Please, you would never offend me, even when we don't agree. I appreciate your passion on this issue. I know it's hard for certain showroom dummies around here to get this, even all kinds of websites (see me being chided by below :)), but I hope you can understand that one can oppose and be ashamed of things done in its name in Gaza and Lebanon, and still question its differential treatment vis-a-vis world opinion. I guess, unlike you, I don't see a silent world in response to what Israel did in Gaza. Still, I hope you can at least try and understand that that does not mean I support or justify Israel's ill-fated decision to invade Gaza. Perhaps I can understand a basis for going in to Gaza, but I don't think it was the right thing to do strategically, and I could never justify the deaths of Palestinian civilians.
Cheers Don.
Bruce
March 21, 2009 10:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Should be "even those who have the ability and time to cite to all kinds of websites". . .
March 21, 2009 10:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, and you make a good point about the world not being silent (like everyone, I often “hear” selectively). There were protests and condemnations across the globe (US excluded), but I only saw some very weak criticisms from some of the foreign and Arab leaders.
But I was very disturbed by the non-binding resolution passed, in your name and mine, almost unanimously by Congress supporting the action. And it came right in the middle of news reports of tragedies such as children being found starving next to their dead parents because medical assistance was kept out for several days.
I don’t know, but I feel like peace prospects there, which affect peace elsewhere, including here, look like it must to someone falling overboard- your stomach sinks as the ship just gets smaller and smaller in the distance.
March 21, 2009 11:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fair enough Don, and I agree with you that it was a wimpy resolution in both houses of Conress. I happen to have a helluva lot of things to say about how to move the congress in the right direction. For starters, to the extent the American Jewish community remains an important element in that equation, some use honey, some use vinegar, and some like yours truly see a need for an appropriate mixture of the two. On the other hand, one of my biggest gripes is that so many on this forum, even principal contributors, see mocking the real and good faith anxieties and sensitivities and downright fear of the Jewish community as an end in itself. Yea, yea, they're just all a bunch of ingorant neocons, etc. To the extent the community remains important, as they say down by you, that dog just ain't gonna hunt.
March 22, 2009 12:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
Of course, as you point out, there are children being killed on the other side. If anyone's going to go to trial it should be the policymakers. But, as with everything else, it's the policymakers who decide who goes to trial and who doesn't and it's the policymaker who hold the trial and decide what lives are ruined and who will be punished.
March 20, 2009 9:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
I suppose this is an answer to Dan K, but I want reiterate that these youth are indeed victims of forces much beyond them. We cry at "Hamlet," or "Platoon," and then philosophers talk about these soldiers as if they are, what? The problem? I would add that suicide bombers are caught up in this tragedy as well. If you have not seen "Arna's Children" rent the DVD immediately.
March 20, 2009 12:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you, Mr. Avishai, for your continued thoughtfulness, sobriety and empathy - features that are far too often absent from this discussion, but are necessary if any progress is to be made. Sadly, it is far easier to rage and cast blame on one side or the other for the escalating atrocities that define the conflict and perpetuate it.
March 20, 2009 12:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, we wouldn't want to blame anyone for murdering people. That would be so illiberal.
March 20, 2009 3:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Everybody is subject to the influence of forces beyond their control. Yes, all the mayhem proceeds from self-perpetuating cycles of pain and brutality and abuse and fear, in a lineage leading back to Cain and Abel. What else is new?
But we do what we can to hold people responsible for their actions. Did young Israelis suddenly grow stupid? We're talking about men with guns who shot children, and shot up whole houses filled with obvious non-combatants. We now don't expect them to know that racist, genocidal mania is vile? Somebody told them that God loves Jews and hates Arabs, and we should feel sympathy for the gunmen because they believed the message? What are they, four years old?
They were propagandized by their superiors? Welcome to the club! I'm sure if we scratch we will find those superiors in turn have their own tragic, buck-passing story of victimization. Their grandparents died in the Holocaust. They fell under the influence of an Evil Rabbi in their youth. Boo, hoo. Oh, and what about those poor Hitler Youth: propagandized to believe that they must defend the Aryan Race against the Evil Jews. How sad for those poor young men that they then went on to help murder Jews.
This weepy response to the poor soldiers is just another example of exquisite Israeli narcissism and worship of victimhood. I'm sure in another decade or two we'll see a Waltz with Ahmed, in which some poor Israeli soldier-boy will recount his old "Death to the Arabs" days, and yet demonstrate the redemptive moral superiority of his self-lacerating conscience.
March 20, 2009 3:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well said, Dan, and excuse my unintentional repetition of your arguments below (I didn't see this).
March 20, 2009 10:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dan, far be it from me to disavow narcissism, especially the exquisite kind. In any case, the one form of victimization that I do claim for Israelis these days is the abuse of Israeli youth by parents who should know better. I suggest compassion also for Palestinian youth who have committed atrocities.
March 21, 2009 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with what you've written. Ahead of the Iraq War I could foresee this same problem. Whether or not the press or the public comes down on the soldiers, as happened to Vietnam Vets, it does violence to the soul to be placed in situations where killing is the object. And where a disregard for the sacredness of human life takes hold.
I personally do not blame the young people. I blame any society that places young people in what I call "moral jeopardy".
Thank you for this post.
March 20, 2009 12:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
The policy makers should stand trial for War Crimes where appropriate, regardless of political considerations or special relationships.
Same goes for Cheney and co.
March 20, 2009 1:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
So you blame the "society". And who is that? Does anyone ever do anything for which they should be condemned personally? Or are we all just one another's victims?
March 20, 2009 3:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I came across this blog some time ago by a US Colonel W. Patrick Lang, former US military intelligence and special forces, who claims to have associated with the IDF for several years. http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2009/01/the-idf-ground.html
Col. Lang's observations are particularly apt in this discussion. (Disclaimer: I have no way to verify who this person is or the accuracy of what he is saying, although he seems legit. As a proud supporter of Israel who can scarcely stand some of the vitriol on these boards, I am pained by some of that he has to say. I also note that the UN incident he was writing about has been - at least in part - debunked.)
Here is an excerpt:
- There are no career ground force sergeants except as technicians. Unless the system has changed very recently, the IDF ground forces typically do not have career NCOs in the LINE of the combat arms. This is a structural tradition that derives originally from the Russian tsar's army and which came to Palestine through Russian and Polish Zionist immigrants. Then this passed through the Haganah into the IDF. The IDF "line" conscripts what amount to yearly classes of recruits and selects from them more promising soldiers who are given NCO level command responsibilities as; infantry leaders, tank commanders, artillery gun captains, etc. The IDF does have career NCOs but they are typically found in jobs of a more technical nature rather than junior combat command at the squad or platoon (section) level. As a result, junior officers (company grade) are required to perform duties that in more traditionally organized armies would be performed by sergeants. Leading a small combat or reconnaissance patrol would be an example. As a result, a non-reserve infantry or tank company in the field consists of people who are all about the same age (19-22) and commanded by a captain in his mid 20s. What is missing in this scene is the voice of grown up counsel provided by sergeants in their 30s and 40s telling these young people what it is that would be wise to do based on real experience and mature judgment. In contrast a 22 year old American platoon leader would have a mature platoon sergeant as his assistant and counselor.
- As a result of this system of manning, the IDF's ground force is more unpredictable and volatile at the tactical (company) level than might be the case otherwise. The national government has a hard time knowing whether or not specific policies will be followed in the field. For example, the Israeli government's policy in the present action in the Gaza Strip has been to avoid civilian casualties whenever possible. Based on personal experience of the behavior of IDF conscripts toward Palestinian civilians, I would say that the Israeli government has little control over what individual groups of these young Israeli soldiers may do in incidents like the one yesterday in which mortar fire was directed toward UN controlled school buildings.
In Beit Suhur outside Bethlehem, I have seen IDF troops shoot at Palestinian Christian women hanging out laundry in their gardens. This was done with tank coaxial machine guns from within a bermed up dirt fort a couple of hundred yards away, and evidently just for the fun of it. In Bethlehem a lieutenant told me that he would have had his men shoot me in the street during a demonstration that I happened to get caught in, but that he had not because he thought I might not be a Palestinian and that if I were not the incident would have caused him some trouble. I have seen a lot of things like that. One might say that in war, s--t happens. That is true, but such behavior is indicative of an army that is not well disciplined and not a completely reliably instrument of state policy. In my travels in the west Bank in March of 2008, it was noticeable that the behavior towards Palestinian civilians of IDF troops at roadblocks was reminiscent of that of any group of post-adolescents given guns and allowed to bully the helpless in order to look tough for each other. I think the IDF would be well advised to grow some real sergeants.
March 20, 2009 12:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for that, ArmchairGuerilla. One of my first thoughts on reading Professor Avashai's post and the reports in the newspaper this morning was, "but where were the officers in charge?" Your post explains a lot, and perhaps also explains some of the other reports about IDF actions that we've all read through the years.
If true, this must also be something that the Israeli government has long been aware of as well. Surely there have been assessments of the wisdom of structuring the military command in the way they do, with essentially little or no adult supervision. The violence was preventable and predictable; the situation seems to have much in common with our own Abu Ghraib scandals of a few years ago. One needs only to read about the social science experiments of Stanley Milgram (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) or Zimbardo's Stanford Prison Study (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment) to understand just how predictable situations like this really are.
Professor Avashai is correct. These were just kids, and as such really unprepared for the sort of job they were asked to do, especially with all the intense social forces also bearing down upon them. Those who asked them to do the job surely knew all that. It is there, with those who designed the system and sent the kids off to war fully aware of the forces at play that could make the result we're now hearing about so predictable, that the responsibility lies. The correct decision for Professor Avashai's hypothetical social worker is obvious.
March 20, 2009 1:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Armchair:
"For example, the Israeli government's policy in the present action in the Gaza Strip has been to avoid civilian casualties whenever possible."
What's your take on this Army Chief "rabbi"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB9JrEub4IU
The undisciplined environment you describe is entirely intentional, of course.
March 20, 2009 5:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
The story about the Rabbi is nothing short of outrageous. Unfortunately, extreme elements thrive in times of war. He does not speak for the government and in fact the story has prompted a well deserved backlash. (BTW: I also recall the story of the American general, whose name escapes me now, and his christian holy war beliefs about Iraq; unlike the rabbi, the general was in a position to shape and carry out military policy - scary stuff).
Where we also differ, I'm sure, is my certitude that there is nothing at all intentional about the the "undisciplined environment" in which the soldiers operate.
March 20, 2009 6:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
We'll find out if the IDF isn't overhauled after Gaza, won't we?
March 20, 2009 6:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is the kind or moral mess that comes from a state built on a religion. I don't think the other side is any better. Ignorance on both sides from these religious nuts. But Israel has enough history and culture to know better. Shame.
March 20, 2009 4:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Brutalization of youth during war is as old as war itself. Mandoweis has a post on part of this phenomena. It is about tee shirts being warn by IDF snipers back from Gaza. The one that struck me was the picture of a pregnant Arab women with the cross hairs across her belly with the caption "one shot, two lives". This is called black "humor".
http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/03/racist-and-sexist-military-shirts-show-the-fruits-of-israeli-militarism.html#comments
March 20, 2009 5:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
One of the things I have been writing about at TPM for the last 3 years is the very soul of Israel is leaking away. It's a phenomenon I have been personally witnessing in many parts of Israel, especially in the settlements.
The discourse among Israelis has become much more coarse than in the old days. Hatred of arabs was rarely stated overtly in pleasant company. Now you even hear it at shul. Words like extermination were once thought to be so out of bounds - no Israeli would dare mention it publicly. Now your hear it far, far too much.
My nephew is a captain in the Golani and has been a regular in IDF for 17 years. He was fighting on the outskirts of Gaza City and yesterday when I called him about the "atocities" reported in the news, his thoughts were they were probably true.
The ROE for his unit did not specify taking extra precautions to avoid civilian casualties. The ONE over-riding ROE was to avoid at ALL costs the capture of a soldier by Hamas. With that in mind no risky chances were taken. If the objective was a particular house, the tanks were order to blast holes in all floors then grenades were tossed in to make sure everyone inside was dead. It did not matter if the soldiers saw women and children peaking out of windows. The orders were shoot first and let G-d sort out the mess.
One interesting thing he saw was non-IDF rabbis on the front lines. He assumed these were settlement rabbis but they could be heard giving "motivational" speeches to the troops. Knowing some of these west bank rabbis I can imagine the language they used on these troops to fire them up against the "vermin".
My own settler nephew (Ariel) who for years has been a gung ho settler advocate is now considering leaving the IDF after his Lebanon and Gaza experience. He can no longer stomach the attitude of the settler soldiers who are becoming a greater and greater portion of the IDF.
The occupation is a cancer that is destroying not only the IDF but the very fabric of Israel.The hatred and stress of the occupation has been building and one day will explode and I fear what Israel might be tempted to do with it's mighty military machine. The Netanyahu and Lieberman win is just the latest manifestation of the direction Israel is headed.
To win the land of a Israel but to lose our souls in the process is an unspeakable tragedy. It's almost as if being a Jew is no longer about religion but more about a typical ethnic and nationalistic label. Some of the actions reported as happened in Gaza as well as things I have witnessed in the West Bank by the IDF and settlers are not part of any Jewish religion I can recognize.
I know I should have more compassion and empathy for Israelis but as months pass I am having trouble identifying with too many of them. Are they really part of my tribe?
March 20, 2009 9:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's not the Israelis. It's not Hamas. It's War. It's always the same: starting with high ideals and ending with Abu Ghraib. Or worse.
And in this case a war that has gone on too long for any veneer of civilization to remain. .
The IDF is surely not the worst army.It might even be one of the better ones, but it's an Army.
Auden. The Massacre of the Innocents-from For the Time Being.
You are asking too much of human nature to expect it or the rest of Israeli society to be any different.
On patriotic occasions we celebrate our pioneer ancestors but don't dwell excessively on The Trail of Tears. Like the Zionists they were brave, generous spirited , risk takers .Who killed the people already living on the land they wanted .
March 21, 2009 11:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
JD:
"It's almost as if being a Jew is no longer about religion but more about a typical ethnic and nationalistic label. Some of the actions reported as happened in Gaza as well as things I have witnessed in the West Bank by the IDF and settlers are not part of any Jewish religion I can recognize."
Seems to me you should think about placing this type of passionate correspondence on some of the more right or wrong websites where it might actually make a difference. It's understandable but easy to preach to the converted. And speaking of the evil of some of your more extreme brothers and sisters is music to the ears of much of the crowd around here. I'm just not sure that that's where your talents would be best utilized, but I'm sure you have your reasons.
In any event, as your blessed grandfather about whom you have written would have told you, Judaism is indeed about much more than religion. But here's a suggestion. Take a trip down to synagogue on some Saturday morning. Look at the kids, the very old folks, and all who fall in between. And close your eyes and sit and reflect and hear the people sing tunes that are no different than those you heard when you were a tot. It's shabbat jd and it comes around every week like clockwork (regardless of what's happening anywhere in the world). Then come home and do what I'm about to do; take a nap. It couldn't hurt.
Shabbat shalom.
Bruce
March 21, 2009 1:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Take a trip down to synagogue on some Saturday morning. Look at the kids, the very old folks, and all who fall in between. And close your eyes and sit and reflect and hear the people sing tunes that are no different than those you heard when you were a tot."
Bruce - These are words of wisdom. I wrote yesterday words of agony. Yet today after services, I am more at peace. Such is the way Life goes sometimes.
Shabbat shalom.
March 21, 2009 4:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bruce.
"Seems to me you should think about placing this type of passionate correspondence on some of the more right or wrong websites where it might actually make a difference. It's understandable but easy to preach to the converted. And speaking of the evil of some of your more extreme brothers and sisters is music to the ears of much of the crowd around here. I'm just not sure that that's where your talents would be best utilized, but I'm sure you have your reasons."
I don't consider you among the converted.
As one of the "crowd around here" who allegedly hears music, let me assure you that the tunes are familiar stuff available to anyone who doesn't consider inserting fingers into ears and chanting LALALALALALALALALALALA as loudly as possibe a useful response to the countless similiar reports by righteous Israeli peaceniks and human rights orgs among others.
We know all about this stuff already.
I'm reminded of that old saying: "Not in front of the goyim!" when I read your admonition to jdledell to self-stifle.
March 21, 2009 8:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
No comment.
March 21, 2009 10:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
No surprise.
March 22, 2009 1:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Indulging an old Yiddish proveb: Bruce goes to shul to talk to God -- I go to shul to talk to Bruce. A belated (or anticipatory) gut Shabbes, Reb Levine.
March 23, 2009 9:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Approximately 1500 killed in weeks; two thirds civilians; one in five, children… Thousands of homes deliberately destroyed… Schools, safe havens and hospitals bombed… A ton of TNT dropped for every man woman and child in Gaza... White phosphorus and evidence of other particularly bloody munitions… Gaza reduced to rubble… Stories of atrocities witnessed by UN observers and human rights groups… Stories from IDF soldiers about rampant racist violence against civilians… Stories before this about rightwing religious influence and incitement in the IDF… Politicians and IDF Officers talking about teaching Palestinians a “lesson”… The same operating procedures applied simultaneously in different towns and on different battlefields.
I really don't see how the IDF could been any more consistent or focused in its tactics and operations. Does anyone really believe this was some kind of unavoidable, accidental “collateral damage”? Are the “children” who killed innocent people not responsible because they demonized those people? How can you ask that?
I'm willing to bet that almost all of the stories that come out about atrocities will be told by those stand-up soldiers who refused to partake in the slaughter and may have even tried to stop it. Child abuse? Most of your everyday run-of-the-mill psychopaths, killers, rapists, pedophiles, etc. were themselves victims of child abuse. Should their crimes be excused?
March 20, 2009 10:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Does anyone really believe this was some kind of unavoidable, accidental “collateral damage”?"
Yea, like 99% of the world actually. And 100% of those who know the history of the conflict.
March 21, 2009 3:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, of course this war, and their actions, should not be excused. I was reacting to the claim that it is the soldiers who should be blamed for violating "norms," not their elders, who stuck them in this terrible tragedy.
March 21, 2009 4:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, sir, I understand that. And just as I believe Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld should answer for crimes stemming from their execution of the “WOT,” so should responsible leaders elsewhere. I don’t believe anyone guilty of either purposeful killing of civilians (called murder in some quarters) or a reckless disregard for their safety leading to death or injury should be excused; neither should those that order or even incite it. And many don't seem to understand that collective punishment, regardless of the degree or severity, of an occupied people is a war crime of its own accord.
I do agree with you that soldiers are, in many ways, victims of a brainwashing by a military system in order to create killers. But the UCMJ here and regulations elsewhere created to protect civilians always apply. The soldiers involved in Haditha and Fallujah and Bagram and Abu Ghraib provide our own examples of what comes from demonizing a people in order to fight an enemy within their population. But, while I don’t think Rumsfeld should be excused, neither should the soldiers who committed crimes even if they were carrying out orders.
Let’s say, hypothetically, a soldier in Gaza refused orders to participate in attacks or maneuvers that could harm civilians, or a pilot refused to drop bombs in a civilian area? What about them? Should they be court-martialed? Do those soldiers who did not participate in crimes, even crimes of negligence, cast a guilty light on those that did?
March 21, 2009 5:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
PS Stories have circulated for years about isolated incidents of IDF soldiers, in the West Bank and elsewhere, berating, humiliating or even shooting Palestinians with impunity. This would indicate a problem both within the ranks and in leadership.
March 21, 2009 5:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Richard Silverstein, who blogs at Tikun Olam, has been posting translations from Haaretz's Hebrew articles.
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/03/20/idf-testimony-of-possible-war-crimes/
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/03/18/idf-soldiers-admit-shoot-to-kill-orders-against-gaza-civilians/
Bernard, I wonder how the perimeter walls affect the Israeli people. Are they a visible part of everyday life? It seems the walls may serve to isolate Israelis, and to increase the impression of constant danger.
March 21, 2009 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
M.J. Rosenberg has started a new thread on the following article, but I thought it was appropriate to have it posted here as well, as it very much deals with the discussion here:
"A Religious War in Israel’s Army"
By Ethan Bronner;
After the harshness in Gaza, a clash over who will control battle ethics.
In New York Times' Week in Review, March 22
Also in the news section yesterday, Bronner published "More Allegations Surface in Israeli Accounts of Gaza War
March 22, 2009 1:34 PM | Reply | Permalink