What Will America Do If Israel Abandons Democracy?
Steven Walt, (co-author with John Mearsheimer of "The Israel Lobby" and a blogger at Foreign Policy) has been engaged with blogger Matt Yglesias about what happens if the two-state solution dies.
The question is this: will the United States continue to support Israel if it annexes the occupied territories while denying their Arab population the vote. In other words, if Israel is no longer a democracy, will we support it?
Here is my answer. I don't know.
But, with 20 years experience on Capitol Hill, I can tell you what Congress would do. With lobby talking points in hand, most Members of Congress would simply insist that Israel remained a democracy even if millions of Arabs were denied the right to vote. .
Legislators would simply argue that there are different kinds of democracies and that a country like Israel -- "surrounded by enemies on all sides," "under constant terrorist attack," "living in a dangerous neighborhood" -- cannot afford our kind of democracy.
But it still would be a democracy, i.e,. for Jews. The House and Senate would pass resolutions rejecting the very idea that Israel is non-democratic simply because the majority of its people would be disenfranchised. Your favorite liberals would shout it to the rooftops.
Of this I am sure. There is one variable that could change it. If, by the time Israel abandoned democracy, the United States had put public financing of campaigns into effect, Congress would react with horror. But that is not going to happen.
Those unenthusiastic about the two-state solution need to understand that.
Believing that Israeli annexation of the territories would reduce America's unbalanced policies is naive. Congress will say whatever they are told to say. Re-defining democracy to ensure that Israel remains one rhetorically would be, for most of them, a piece of cake.
This is one-more reason to push hard for the two-state solution. It both ensures Israel's security and ends Palestinian statelessness. The alternative is one undemocratic Jewish state and then, ultimately, a war that would end the debate once and for all, one way or another,
In short, the one-state solution is the no-state solution.
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CHECK out the new Mideast Peace Pulse blog for more on this subject and others relating to Israel and the Middle East.
One nice example was when there was a little war between Russia and Georgia, and all our establishment was supporting democratic Georgia against authoritarian Russia.
Then many observers added that actual political practice in both countries is surprisingly similar. Basically, Georgian president copied every move of Putin, perhaps with less subtlety.
On a good day, Musharraf was praised for his dedication to democracy.
So nobody will kvetch if Israel violates some picayune aspects of democracy, like permanent subjugation of a population that is deprived of a write to vote, a right to move freely around the territory etc. Also, this is happening right now, the minute difference would be that now it is a temporary measure (hence, OK) but it could become permanent (hence, not OK). So probably Israeli government will keep the moderate course of having those measures on permanent basis in practice, but without proclaiming that.
February 18, 2009 8:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
"and all our establishment was supporting democratic Georgia against authoritarian Russia."
The Bush administration had some sick complex about molesting Russia which the U.S. had defeated in the Cold War by 1991. Crazed old antagonists like Dick Cheney pined for the long-ago-won Cold War and so pursued provocative encirclement by perpetually expanding NATO, hostile missile "defense" strategy in East European countries, and all sorts of malevolent intrigues. It was like boys playing with soldiers only with real soldiers, weapons and money and our real security degraded as we lost Russia's cooperation on terrorism, and the relationship pointlessly descended toward God knows what. All to support these peoples' juvenile gratification in bellicosity -- it was as though we had South American generals running our foreign policy.
Knowing none of the facts of the South Ossetia conflict, McCain lashed out in a stupefyingly irresponsible statement for Georgia's President Saakashvili within hours: "I know I speak for every American when I say to him today, we are all Georgians.'" It is so frightening to think that nitwit almost got to be President.
February 19, 2009 2:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hello MJ - I have another wager for you ...
You know that a certain amount of US/Israeli ordnance has been removed from a warehouse in Gaza. Some of the missing bombs are white phosphorus 155 mm mortar rounds ... made in the USA by Martin Marietta ...
Anyway, the wager : if and when the shells are used against the guys who paid for them, the use of them will be labeled : T E R R O R I S M
This will be reported, shouted from the house-tops, without a scintilla of irony. I bet you a coke.
February 18, 2009 8:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
We brag about "Shock and Awe." And what was that but terrorism on an enormous scale?
The Irish writer Brendan Behan was right: The terrorist is the one with the little bomb.
February 19, 2009 9:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Any American that can watch American planes drop American-made white phosphorus onto civilians, and eat supper at the same time, is a heartless bastard. In my view.
February 19, 2009 11:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
The IDF was "educating" the Palestinians. Just ask Thomas Friedman. See http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/14/opinion/14friedman.html?_r=1
Money quote: " In Gaza, I still can’t tell if Israel is trying to eradicate Hamas or trying to “educate” Hamas, by inflicting a heavy death toll on Hamas militants and heavy pain on the Gaza population. "
Heavy pain on the "population"? That sounds like terrorism. Except in the USA. So long as you a a not a "subnational group" you can get away with it. See http://terrorism.about.com/od/whatisterroris1/ss/DefineTerrorism_5.htm
If you are allied with us, then your terrorism is reframed as "education."
We are No. 1.
February 19, 2009 12:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do not read Friedman - I know what he is going to promote and what he is going to defend. Status Quo.
Burning civilians with white phosphorus is disgusting and criminal and nothing else, end of description.
Does Friedman sit there lapping up a bowl of ice cream while watching the pretty phosphorus fall ?
Thanks for the links, mythbuster.
February 19, 2009 1:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
When I see the almost 100% support of congress and of the MSM for Israel I am reminded of the movie "Invasion of the Body Snatchers". In my remake, the Jewish and Christian Zionists pod masters place a new pod next to the bed of a sleeping senator, representative, or newspaper editor. The sleeping ones are replaced with simulations grown from plantlike pods that become physical duplicates. These pod-grown imposters then become zombies repeating their allegiance to the Israeli right wing policies and to the Rapture Crowd whenever they are called upon. The Pod People are indistinguishable from normal people except for their utter lack of reasoning and morality when it comes to Israel.
The pod-masters tried to put a pod next to Norman Finklestein when he was sleeping but he escaped the pod transformation. Finklestein's mission then became to warn the rest of humanity of the alien invasion. He has done frequent battle with one of top members of the pod hierarchy - Alan Dershowitz.
With the pod people close behind, a seemingly crazed Finklestein runs onto the highway frantically screaming of the alien Zionist force which has overrun the corridors of power in the USA and Europe. He screams to the passing motorists and looks into the camera and yells, "They're here already! You're next!"
You can see the trailer for the original on youTube
You can also see the remake trailer.
February 18, 2009 9:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Israel doesn't have to annex all of the occupied territories. It can just annex the colonized parts where only Israelis live. Then it doesn't have to deny anyone the vote and can say that Israel itself is fully democratic. Meanwhile it can continue to occupy un-annexed, non-Israeli territories in the West Bank, and continue to expand the colonies in those territories from time to time, and then annex those colonies too when the time is right.
As for Congress, it's not the money. It's the threatened reputation blackmail. Americans have all been ideologically trained, and the very malleable congressfolk all believe Israel is going to win its long struggle for control of Palestine. They know Israelis will write the history books. None of them wants to risk historical blackballing: going down in the future annals as an anti-Jewish opponent of the glorious triumph. It's a loy easier just to stand by and watch the ethnic cleansing.
February 18, 2009 9:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
There is a simple two-state solution that will happen: Israel retains all territory within pre-1967 armistice lines, plus Jerusalem, plus the major settlements in the West Bank; Jordan will get the rest. Two states for two peoples. This is the only solution to the conflict. Any other two-state solution simply doesn't work. The Palestinians have had plenty of chances to get their own state and they have squandered every single one of them, choosing instead to attempt to (and hope to) destroy Israel.
Jordan will be paid off (handsomely) to bring the West Bank under its control. It will not happen in the near future, but neither will an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement.
February 19, 2009 12:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Palestinians are not Jordanians. So all you have done is deny Jordanians self-determination.
February 19, 2009 9:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
"The Kingdom of TransJordania"* was invented in a hotel lobby in Egypt by Winston Churchill...all nations are fictions it's just that some are more successful than others...the best solution is that the 60% majority population of "Jordan" which is "Palestinian" is the building block for a new fictional nation called Palestine which includes a demilitarized "West Bank" and a non-controlling supervisory role over the "Temple mount"...but why wont this happen?
Because the "New" Jordanian-Palestine would be exposed as a gangsterocracy and a sham democracy...or it would lurch into being a genuine parliamentary democracy with a strong monarch who has the power to dissolve parliament...and thus would be a major threat to the dictatorships supported by the Euro-American empire...and as the oil barons can't afford that...the "Palestinians" have been condemed to wander in the wilderness for another 150 to 200 years...until the ME runs out of oil...and then, assuming quite a few other things (all variable)generations of "Palestinians" ReEducated in the "West" will start buying property in Jordan and the West Bank and Palestinian ZIONISM will produce a quasi democratic "Palestinian" state along side Israel and then, if anyone is still around, then in about 200+ years the Isralie-Palestinian "Union" will emerge...
But history "has its own cunning" and since Emanuel Kant was smarter than almost everyone who posts here, it remains best to remember he was probably correct when he said: "from the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing will ever grow..."
So it goes...
*and no, the Marx Brothers did not go there...but it sure sounds like a place they would have had a laugh in...making fun of our hypocrisy...
February 19, 2009 11:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
The West Bank - A land without a people for a people with too little land.
Coming to a history text book near you.
February 19, 2009 12:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
I wouldn't worry about Israel abandoning democracy. Jews are totally committed to democracy and human rights, and will stick to it no matter what, even when every other nation on the planet has given up the ghost. They have a long and very well documented history of doing that. The Jewish commitment to human rights is unshakeable, and no amount of terrorism or anti-Semitism can ever change that. So Americans don't need to worry about Israeli democracy. They need to worry about their own democracy, which is much, much more in peril than in Israel. But even when the US abandons democracy entirely and is totally taken over by corporate, warmonging interests, Israel will survive and maintain its democracy. It's survived for 3000 years, and it sure doesn't look like there are any serious threats on the horizon. They've already beaten every enemy in sight, and would have no trouble beating them again. I realize this bothers the anti-Semites, but then who cares about them. They're basically bullies, and will run when the fighting starts. They always do.
February 19, 2009 1:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
*Jews are totally committed to democracy and human rights
Can I get some of what you're smoking?
*When did Avigdor Lieberman sew the foreskin back on his dick?
February 19, 2009 2:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
No shortage of tin foil in your house.
February 19, 2009 9:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
tin foil
No, no, no!
Everyone knows if you smoke using tinfoil as a screen long enough, you get Alzheimers!
Is that what happened to you? Maybe we can bring a product liability action against Reynolds--be sure an save the boxes as evidence!
February 21, 2009 12:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Umm, that was supposed to be directed to mikep.
not mythbuster.
unless mythbuster is smoking through a tin foil screen....prob'ly not.
February 21, 2009 4:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
As to what Congress would do if Israeli abandoned democracy in the ways indicated, there is no doubt it would be just as MJ says.
Democracy was "evolving" to meet current challenges etc., and Israel courageously looking for the day it could bring peace and democracy to all concerned, or however the lobby's talking points read. Simple as that.
February 19, 2009 2:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Congress will say whatever they are told to say".
So what happens when America finally becomes a democratic republic instead of an oligarchy?
And since history is full of bitter loss and vengeful furious "winners" what if (yes, what if) what happens is: Israel goes on herky-jerky and spasmodically lurching "left" and "right" until the oil is gone?...and "The Arabs" end up like an old woman on a "...hot dead weary September day..." asking over and over: "How could god allow us to lose?..."
Answer: The same thing that happens everywhere else...
So it goes...
February 19, 2009 11:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Legislators would simply argue that there are different kinds of democracies and that a country like Israel -- "surrounded by enemies on all sides," "under constant terrorist attack," "living in a dangerous neighborhood" -- cannot afford our kind of democracy."
This is a sharp criticism of congressional bigwigs, MJ. I like it!
---- This reminds me of another system of governance: "democracy under occupation"... ask the PLC/PA/PNA/PLO how that has been working.
By the way, have you seen the "inaugural digital edition" of AIPAC's "Near East Report" -- as bland as non-kosher turkey on white bread. It's nice for WINEP though- now they don't need to start a blog...
Keep posting on The Pulse- good stuff all around.
http://www.mideastbymidwest.com
February 19, 2009 5:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
With lobby talking points in hand, most Members of Congress would simply insist that Israel remained a democracy even if millions of Arabs were denied the right to vote. .
Isn't this happening already? Israel's been denying millions of Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza the right to vote for 40 years.
February 19, 2009 6:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
As I recall, millions of Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza did vote, and fairly recently. And they elected a terrorist organization to lead them.
February 19, 2009 7:43 PM | Reply | Permalink