Are We Going to Buy the Bezzle?
The Obama Administration’s rumored plan to buy “troubled assets” to rescue banks presents the government with a “thorny valuation problem,” the New York Times reports.
The article gives an example of a bond held by an unidentified “financial institution” which is “backed by 9,000 second mortgages from borrowers who put down little or no money to buy homes. Nearly a quarter of the loans are delinquent, and losses on defaulted mortgages are averaging 40 percent.”
The financial institution values the bond at 97 cents on the dollar. Standard & Poor’s values the bond at 87 cents at the current default rate, but estimates the bond’s value could go down to 53 cents if the default rate doubles. But someone actually bought one of the bonds recently. The purchase price was 38 cents.
According to the article, financial industry critics “say that the banks’ accounting for those assets cannot be trusted because they have an incentive to use optimistic assumptions.”
“Optimistic”? Whoever paid 38 cents on the dollar for one of those bonds is a giddy optimist. The financial institution’s valuation of 97 cents on the dollar is pretty clearly fraudulent.
Almost half of home mortgages in 2006 had “piggyback” second mortgages. The first mortgage was typically for 80 percent of the value of the home, and the second was for the rest of the loan. So if a borrower had no equity, the first mortgage was for 80 percent of the value of the home and the second was for 20 percent. The lender then sold the first and second mortgages separately to investment banks like Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers, which sold bonds on pools of mortgages, like the one in the Times’ article.
Here’s how it all works: the holder of a first mortgage gets paid everything before the holder of a second gets paid anything. If the holder of the first forecloses, the proceeds of the sale pay the foreclosure costs, then the first mortgage, then the second—if there is anything left. If the holder of the second forecloses, the holder of the second pays all foreclosure costs and the holder of the first gets paid in full from foreclosure before the holder of the second gets anything.
Home values nationwide have now fallen 25.1 percent from the peak, which is probably when the second mortgages that backed the bond in the Times’ article were made.
In short, most second mortgages effectively now have no collateral. Holders of second mortgages are unsecured creditors, just like credit card companies.
The Times article said that based on Standard and Poor’s computer models, “at the end of September financial firms had $600 billion in such hard-to-value assets.” That’s not the amount that assets are overvalued, that’s the current value of assets that are “hard-to-value,” so the assets might be overvalued.
Yeah, that’s probably optimistic too.
Goldman Sachs economists estimated a couple of weeks ago that losses from all debt—residential mortgages, credit cards, car loans, commercial real estate, business loans—was now $2.1 trillion, and only $1 trillion of that had been written down by the financial institutions holding the debt. “Loss recognition by US financial institutions still has a long way to go,” a Goldman economist said.
Not surprisingly, Nouriel Roubini is less optimistic still. Dr. Doom estimates that losses for U.S. financial institutions could reach $3.6 trillion, about half of that losses to banks and broker dealers. “If that’s true, it means the U.S. banking system is effectively insolvent because it starts with a capital of $1.4 trillion,” Roubini said. “This is a systemic banking crisis.”
So who can we believe? Financial institutions’ own valuations of their assets? Standard & Poor’s computers? The price actually paid for an identical asset in a single recent transaction? Goldman Sachs’ economists? Dr. Doom?
Some prominent economists appear to put more faith in Roubini’s analysis than in financial institutions’ valuations. Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel laureate in economics, calls the rumored plan to buy such assets swapping “cash for trash.” Paul Krugman, also a Nobel laureate, calls the plan “Wall Street voodoo”- “the belief that by performing elaborate financial rituals we can keep dead banks walking.”
I don’t claim to know, but for some time now I have thought that financial institutions were acting like they knew something we didn’t. Some business practices have not made any sense for institutions that are safe and sound.
In the late 1980s, I represented an Iowa savings and loan in a small lawsuit against a North Carolina bank. The Iowa savings and loan held a mortgage on a house and lot in rural North Carolina. The borrower stopped paying, and the savings and loan foreclosed. When the savings and loan inspected the property, they were surprised to find an empty foundation. It turned out that the house was a manufactured home. The bank had loaned money to the borrower to buy the manufactured home when the home was still sitting on the dealer’s lot. The borrower had stopped paying the bank too, and the bank repossessed the manufactured home, jacking the home off the foundation and towing it away.
The savings and loan didn’t know that the borrower owed money to the bank, and the bank didn’t know that the borrower owed money to the savings and loan. And both were counting on the same home as collateral.
The lot was worth about $30,000 less with an empty foundation than it had been with the manufactured home on it, which meant that the value of the lot was not nearly enough to cover the debt to the savings and loan.
There was no North Carolina case on whether the savings and loan had the first right to the manufactured home as collateral or the bank did. I found a handful of cases from other states, and they split maybe sixty percent for the bank, forty percent for the savings and loan.
So I filed a lawsuit for the savings and loan asking the court to make the bank pay the savings and loan the $30,000 difference. I included a claim for unfair and deceptive trade practices, which had a pretty vague definition in North Carolina at the time. A judge could award triple damages for an unfair and deceptive trade practices claim. The claim wasn’t frivolous…exactly…but it was aggressive.
The bank’s lawyer did the same research and found the same cases. He and I agreed that it made sense for the bank and the savings and loan just to split the difference, rather than fight it out in court. So I called my contact at the savings and loan and told him that the bank had offered to settle for $15,000, and I thought they should take the offer. He said that the savings and loan was carrying the lawsuit on their books as a $90,000 asset, so a $15,000 settlement would show on their books as a $75,000 loss. That valuation assumed complete victory, including triple damages, which was pretty unlikely.
I argued that $90,000 was wildly unrealistic, that the settlement offer was a bird in the hand, and that settlement would save litigation cost. He wouldn’t budge. I was puzzled, but I had no choice but to go forward with the lawsuit.
I litigated valiantly, and lost.
A few months later I got a letter from the Resolution Trust Corporation. They had taken over the savings and loan, and wanted to know more about the lawsuit.
The savings and loan’s decision not to settle the lawsuit made no economic sense for a solvent institution, but it made perfect sense if their principle objective was to maintain the false appearance of solvency for as long as possible. The savings and loan was undoubtedly inflating all of their assets, including my homely little lawsuit, to postpone the inevitable.
What reminded me of that incident from my late, unlamented law practice was the persistent failure of financial institutions to modify mortgages voluntarily. It makes perfect economic sense for a safe and sound institution to avoid the ruinous costs of foreclosure by agreeing to reduce the principal and monthly payment for homeowners who can pay a mortgage, but not the one they’ve got. But according to the National Association of Consumer Bankruptcy Attorneys, fewer than ten percent of mortgage modifications in November reduced the principal. About half added late payments and penalties to the principal, and either increased monthly payments or added payments at the back end of the mortgage. If a borrower was in default already, what’s the chance the borrower can make a higher monthly payment?
Lenders are quick to say that they have every right to full payment, that they don’t have to agree to modify mortgages. The savings and loan had every right not to settle their lawsuit, to let a court decide their claim against the bank. But refusing to do what makes obvious economic sense is suspicious. If lenders agreed to modify a mortgage to reduce the principal, they would have to change how they value the mortgage as an asset. How do lenders value a modified mortgage that does not reduce the principal, but that is destined for default?
John Kenneth Galbraith wrote that embezzlement is “the most interesting of crimes” for an economist. Embezzlement is almost always eventually discovered, but for a time results in “a net increase in psychic wealth,” when the embezzler “has his gain” and the victim doesn’t miss it. Galbraith called the undiscovered and therefore unfelt loss “the bezzle.”
According to Krugman, the stock in banks that are solvent only by virtue of an “optimistic” valuation of their assets “isn’t totally worthless,” but the stock’s value is “entirely based on the hope that shareholders will be rescued by a government bailout.” The “huge gift to banks shareholders at taxpayer expense,” Krugman said, was likely to be “disguised as ‘fair value’ purchases of toxic assets.”
So maybe insolvent banks are stalling for time, hoping that the economy turns around, that home prices will go back up, or that sick borrowers will get well and unemployed borrowers will find jobs. Maybe they want to enjoy the “psychic wealth” of paper solvency for as long as possible.
And maybe they’re hoping we’ll buy their bezzle.













I'm seeing double, so I'll leave my comment here, too. =D
I've been puzzled by their behavior, too. Even their refusal to lower interest by a point seems short-sighted and silly.
Now it makes sense, but if that is the case, what happens to homeowners when these banks go belly-up?
Thanks Rep Miller.
February 5, 2009 11:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you for this excellent post. This really added to my understanding of the current banking crisis. And turned my stomach.
-- ARG
February 5, 2009 11:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ready for more "upset stomach"?
"The idea is that, free from the burden of carrying these bad assets, banks would start lending again and bolster the faltering economy." - NYT article cited above
This strikes me as such utter nonsense I almost want to puke. If the NYT is right about the idea, Geithner is all wrong.
Lending is happening. Really. People with good credit are getting reasonably priced loans. I see no reason to think the same is not true of corporate borrowing. (besides, the Fed has already lent out over $1T on corporate paper over the past year or so)
There is a limit to the power of lending to "fix" a "faltering" economy.
Stop and think, folks.
The problems in the economy were not caused by lack of lending. And they are not now caused thereby. They were caused [largely] by excess lending and the wrong kind of lending. They are caused now by the consequent effects thereof. This includes plain old bankrupt practices by individuals and businesses, but was exacerbated by criminal overleveraging promoted by Bush Administration officials (Donaldson and Cox to name two) combined with "laissez-faire" monitoring which meant no real monitoring. It doesn't help that we have an ongoing huge trade/accounts deficit. But the develeraging needs to unwind, not be propped up. Someone needs to "bite the bullet". And I don't mean Joe Taxpayer!
There is a reason for less, and less affordable, lending: People, and businesses, aren't good risks these days. They weren't 3 years ago, and they won't be turned into good risks simply by giving taxpayer money to banks.
If the NYT spin is right, we need Geithner out, yesterday. If the NYT spin is wrong, someone please set it right!
February 5, 2009 1:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
not caused by lack of lending
They were caused by lack of earning. (Or, more precisely, lack of sharing the earnings that flowed from 25 years of IT fueled productivity growth).
February 5, 2009 4:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe, but that seems tangential. Am I missing the mark re the NYT claim and Geithner?
I think that even if capital gains and income had been distributed more evenly, all that money looking for a "home" and stampeding into housing, is what inflated the housing bubble (plus other ancillary factors like overlegeraging...)
I cannot quite bring myself to blame the Fed for loose money as the cause of the bubble, but I know folks who place all the fundamental blame there.
February 5, 2009 11:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
folks
Count me as one--Real Estate was always a phenomenally levereged investment when you only had to put down 20%--drop that to zero and add in option arms plus dirt cheap money going out the fed door to the banks, combine with the unique tax advantaged status of home investment, and voila.
The single most important variable in that equation is the carrying cost, ie, the cost of money.
February 5, 2009 11:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, but the Federal Reserve only manipulates some interest rate(s). It doesn't say "give out crazy mortgages with nothing down on no credit check".
Since the Fed has been around a long time without the bubble of the past 7-9 years in housing, I have to look for other more proximal causes.
Easy credit and easy money are slightly, and importantly in my view, different things.
February 6, 2009 1:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
nothing down on no credit check
They were a creature of the rapidly escalating prices (ie bubble).
Five percent per month, month on month, makes the crazy mortgage a good bet to be prepayed.
The prices reflected the open money spigot and the unrestrained leverage (40:1!!!) granted the investment banks (blame SEC) which diluted the Fed's control over the money supply even if they had wished (which they didn't ) to grab the punchbowl.
Moreover, the Fed had residual regulatory powers over mortgage practices that it abdicated; likewise, of course, OFEO (sp?)
February 6, 2009 6:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
OFEO?
I don't know what the Federal Reserve had in the way of regulatory power there.
Your 5% example is hyperbole. It may have happened here or there, but not globally.
Yes the SEC had an effect on overleveraging in synthetics and securitizations, but no that's not a Federal Reserve thing.
Soros has a pretty clear summary. I'm slowly writing a blog. Here's something I might put into it, as written to a friend:
"Cheap money engendered a housing bubble, an explosion of leveraged buyouts, and other excesses. When money is free, the rational lender will keep on lending until there is no one else to lend to."
Now that part strikes me as being the real-world version of your idealistic hate of fiat money -- It tends to blame monetary policy for what happened. Money chased money, in a nutshell. Now this is of course problematic to abstract morality, when the subject becomes the object not only as a trick of language but as a practical matter of principle. It's like "It's all good" - well if it's all good, then there's no evident room for bad, evil, or even right and wrong.
But don't stop there:
"Mortgage lenders relaxed their standards and invented new ways to stimulate business and generate fees. Investment banks on Wall Street developed a variety of new techniques to hive credit risk off to other investors, like pension funds and mutual funds, which were hungry for yield. They also created structured investment vehicles to keep their own positions off their balance sheets."
"relaxed standards", "stimulate business", "generate fees" "hungry for yield" and "keep positions off balance sheets" are not fiat money problems, they could apply to most any monetary system. They are the realm of proper morality. And we haven't yet got to the problem of false labelling, putting AAA ratings on junk debt.
February 6, 2009 6:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
oops, the blockquote should have included the rest of the comment, sorry. I'm quoting myself to a friend...
February 6, 2009 6:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Highly recommended, and you touch on a concern of mine, that of government money in effect supporting crooks and gamblers.
One question: If the trillions of losses are not uniformly distributed, then maybe the bulk of the problem isn't "the U.S. banking system is effectively insolvent" but some institutions are downright dirty while others are okay. I understand that Goldman Sachs cleared out of (or covered its exposure to) mortgage problems almost two years ago. Are there other "healthy banks" with minimal exposure to Roubini's doom-like numbers?
Thanks for the excellent article.
February 5, 2009 12:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks.
And let's not forget the employees whose compensation depends on what happens to their targets each quarter. Especially if you think the enterprise is doomed, you're going to be working hard to divert as much as possible of the remaining assets into your own pocket.
When the mob does this, it's called a bust-out.
February 5, 2009 12:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Notice that it was government programs -- in this case, FSLIC -- which likely induced Brad Miller's S&L client not to act "rationally" and settle.
Doubtless, the S&L was concerned that settlement (and the associated write-down of the asset) would reduce its capital. If the S&L was near to insolvency, it had to be worried that the FSLIC would shut it down.
Bye-bye to that $100,000 FSLIC depositors' insurance and bye-bye to all those wonderful brokered insured deposits!
February 5, 2009 1:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your first two seem to be talking about moral hazard. What's the third comment about?
"Bye-bye to that $100,000 FSLIC depositors' insurance and bye-bye to all those wonderful brokered insured deposits! "
February 5, 2009 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bye-bye
Ellen is having a little fun at the way, in the very twilight of a banking institution's run towards insolvency, the existence of the guarantee, by making the bad bank's paper equal to that of the good bank, albeit the bad one pays a premium to borrow, robs the good bank of capital.
But she's not really about abolishing the fdic, trust me on this.
February 5, 2009 4:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rep Miller thanks for such an informative article. Your anecdote about your S&L case is very instructive. One small point, you wrote:
Holders of second mortgages are unsecured creditors, just like credit card companies.
Actually they are worse, one can simply walk away from a second, but not cc debt (must file bankruptcy first).
Many people believe Citi and BoA would be legally bankrupt if they had to write down all of their bad loans (in effect what would happen in the case of mortgage modification for all underwater mortgages). This total transparency you seem to be advocating may very well end up in the collapse of those two banks. The repercussions would be ugly indeed. What politician is willing to take a stand that leads to this end? The second guessing after the fact would be something fierce.
February 5, 2009 3:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
legally bankrupt
They are, by one definition in the bankruptcy code, viz equitable insolvency.
It turns on the question: "Assuming immediate liquidation of all assets, is the resulting cash sufficient to meet all liabilities."
The interesting thing is that any ten creditors of citi could file an involuntary Chapter 11 petition and raise all hell.
February 5, 2009 4:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's worse than that, from my view.
TARP was for solvent institutions which needed a cushion; banks had to be approved to get funds. As far as I can figure, BAC and Citi knowingly lied about their asset values if they valued them at the 97% range when somewhere between 50 and 87% is realistic. That's fraud.
The executives should be prosecuted and all equity confiscated immediately. And if Paulson connived with them, allowed fudged data to be taken at face value, take his $500,000,000 and jail him too.
February 5, 2009 11:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have always believed that a country whose economy is largely built on manipulating money, rather than manufacturing something of value, is doomed to fail. Manipulating money is what casinos do, and we call that gambling. Almost our entire economy was propped up with gambling, going by the name "financial sector".
In my opinion the de facto bankrupt banks should be allowed to go into bankruptcy, but the government should drastically revise the banking laws, prohibiting banks from holding investment paper - as opposed to mortgages and other real collateral. Then they should simply expedite setting up new banks to replace the failed ones.
I don't care the slightest that people will lose the value of their stock in banks, and I care even less, if possible, that bank employees will be out of jobs until they can be employed by the new banks. Gamblers lose quite often. Big deal.
February 5, 2009 3:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
You might be interested in reading the history of the Dutch from ca 1630 - 1700 where they became a world power based on their manufacturing base and within three generations converted mostly into financing with a collapsed economy.
February 5, 2009 4:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
hoppycalif2 is absolutely right: I have always believed that a country whose economy is largely built on manipulating money, rather than manufacturing something of value, is doomed to fail.
Our government, who manipulates the economy, manufactures nothing. The only money they have is our money which we give to them in taxes.
How much longer do you give us?! ;-0
February 6, 2009 8:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
jacking the home off the foundation and towing it away
Now, there's a phrase you will not find in the complaint formbook.
February 5, 2009 4:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Money (capital) flows to wherever returns are highest -- emerging markets in the mid-'90s, technology-media-telecommunications in the late-'90s, housing in the "noughts" -- and to add some historical perspective -- export financing in the 1920s.
The result: Bubbles or the speeding train that everyone tries to board -- the one and the same train inevitably heading for a wreck.
The jollyroger argues that "money" is being left in the wrong hands ("lack of sharing the earnings") -- a sensible if Marxian(?) argument. But then, he implies there's a moral stricture that's being violated -- that ideas of fairness and justice compel the conclusion that workers must "share" in the benefits of increased productivity.
Why? It is capital -- which buys the tools and trains the workers -- that is responsible for the increase in productivity. Workers receive their wages -- capitalists the return on their investment.
It may well be that capitalists are their own worst enemy and given enough time (two generations seems a good guide) will always lead the economy into a major bust-up.
But let's keep the search for a solution (higher taxes, a steeper tax rate schedule, and government investment in public goods during boom times?) free of problematic moral or ethical claims.
February 6, 2009 8:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
moral or ethical claims
I appeal on neither ground. I rest my case on the collapse of demand that follows when the serfs have no bread and therefor cannot work.
February 6, 2009 5:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do you, then, maintain that demand by distributing money directly to the serfs or by the government spending that money on their behalf?
And during a boom is it not the case that either choice is pro-cyclical -- that is, likely to make the boom boomier?
February 6, 2009 5:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
distributing money directly to the serfs
Ah yes, the Nixon approach. I always liked it.
February 6, 2009 8:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
"I rest my case on the collapse of demand that follows when the serfs have no bread and therefor cannot work."
I get dizzy trying to parse these notions...
Supply of labor collapses when the serfs have no bread and butter.
Consumer demand collapses when consumers have no "bread" (money) AND have no credit cards etc. So consumer demand is not tightly tied to having work (nor to the ability to work).
The system may "work" even when dysfunctional.
Is this a word-swap game??
The simple point I thought you might be trying to make is that if you starve the peasants they won't be buying your plasma TVs.
February 6, 2009 7:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
if you starve the peasants they won't be buying your plasma TVs.
Yeah, that's what I meant--but I wanted something "picturesque", 'cause, y'know, it's Ellen, and all.
So, I was working the serf angle with the bread, and I was gonna close the circle with productive labor as the source of the saved capital for that flat screen, but I was at the dentist today and the nitrous is still slowin' me down, ya feel me?
February 6, 2009 8:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
How are claims based in human morality and economic morality "problematic" here, Ellen?
You ask "Why" workers must share in productivity improvements. The simple answer in a simple system is that capital and labor should both share. We can apportion productivity to both parts in the abstract, and then try to say that more profits should go to capital than to labor or vice versa, depending on the case analysis.
The problem with letting capital consistently take the lion's share is that capital is not human, so eventually labor (which is traditionally human if sometimes animal or radically even mechanical) is subordinated if not subjugated.
Maybe the conceptual problem stems from history. Historically, management was considered a mere tool of capital fighting the unions as a tool of labor. But that fight is not the deep paradox of capital vs. labor.
February 6, 2009 6:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let me begin by saying that I agree with jollyroger's observation -- that is that an economy whose health depends upon a robust level of consumption is likely to find itself in deep do-do if it fails to provide consumers.
I have been advised that I misinterpreted (over interpreted?) jollyroger's use of the word "share" by reading into that use the idea of "ought." He meant it only in a strict denotative sense -- "divide," perhaps.
Thus, I'm a little hesitant to ask you where you come off claiming "that capital and labor should both share" in the "profits"!
February 6, 2009 8:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
a little hesitant
Give me a break...But to the substance, why do you distinguish between human capital, particularly relevant as we take in each others washing, as it were, and investment capital? Why reward only the dead form of capital and stiff the living. (stiff, get it?? Man, that nitrous is good stuff..)
February 6, 2009 8:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is the case that each person brings to any activity his or her own capabilities -- and theoretically, the wage (which may include incentives and bonuses -- and "golden handcuffs") he or she is paid reflects the productivity those unique capabilities generate.
The term "human capital" is polemical -- a baldfaced attempt to extract a share of the profits in favor of a factor of production (labor) which -- again theoretically -- is already being paid in full in the form of wages.
Now, if you can argue persuasively that workers "invest" in the firm this so-called capital which they own in the sense that they own their bodies, then, I can be persuaded that they deserve a return on this investment over and above wages.
February 6, 2009 9:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
a baldfaced attempt
Not me....haven't made any baldfaced manuevers for two years now, since I was seventeen...
February 7, 2009 4:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Both capital and labor should share in the results of increased productivity, because:
"The problem with letting capital consistently take the lion's share is that capital is not human, so eventually labor (which is traditionally human if sometimes animal or radically even mechanical) is subordinated if not subjugated."
I also said:
"We can apportion productivity to both parts in the abstract, and then try to say that more profits should go to capital than to labor or vice versa, depending on the case analysis."
The use of "profits" was shorthand, not intended to strictly imply that stockholder dividends should be attached for the benefit of workers as a lien might "attach" wages in re a delinquent debt. (But I'm not arguing against taxes on dividends, that's something else.) We could say that the increased profitability comes not merely from capital therefore it should be shared. You might argue that making capital per se more productive (say, negotiating a lower interest rate on debt or getting a better IPO share price for the company) should flow strictly to capital (and management who did the negotiation) and not to labor (as workers ex management).
I would only argue that academically. Generally, capital without labor is not productive.
February 6, 2009 9:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
In almost every firm labor is the most important factor of production in its success.
In your example, however, labor was already being paid what it was worth to the firm -- probably, a great deal in order to convince the lender and the IPO purchaser that the firm would be able, in the foreseeable future, to retain those employees upon whose excellent capabilities the lender and the IPO purchaser were relying when paying above the usual rates obtaining for those two types of transactions.
February 6, 2009 9:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
"labor was already being paid what it was worth to the firm"
Maybe, maybe not. And I have no idea where you got "above the usual rates".
The question is whether the labor is being paid what it is worth in the larger picture. If "the firm" represents the stockholders, you're just assuming the conclusion. The point, I thought, was that the interests of capital don't serve the larger interests all that well.
Perhaps you'd segue over to my recent blog and comment there on a related "larger picture" issue?
February 6, 2009 11:23 PM | Reply | Permalink