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The Zeitgeist Shifts: Jon Stewart Takes on Gaza Invasion

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Like everybody else, I think Jon Stewart is terrific. I also think he is brave. But I did not think he was this brave.

I know there are those who will say "what's brave about it. He's rich and famous. What can Israel's right-wing friends in America do to him?"

Who knows? We'll see. I'm pretty much of a nobody but back when I worked on the Hill, my boss Carl Levin wrote something mildly critical of Israel, and William Safire of the New York Times called me and threatened to destroy me. In pretty much those words. Levin backed me up but that wasn't pleasant (ironically, the mildly critical statement was Levin's idea, not mine).

It's only changed for the worse. So Jon Stewart should expect repercussions, especially because the right knows that if it has lost Jon Stewart, it's losing the kids. But Stewart knows what he is up against. And he doesn't care! Bravo.


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It doesn't matter. Your site is losing. In spite of your best efforts, Hamas is going to be forced to accept a permanent cease-fire, end the "resistance" and will not be allowed to bring weapons to Gaza. Enjoy while supply of dead Palestinian children last. In few days you will not have dead bodies to use a propaganda tool anymore. How are you going to generate anti-Israel outrage then?

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Perhaps by remembering all the dead children.

They were neither rats, vermin, or cockroaches - but innocent human beings.

It's the asymmetry that is so galling. Bismark reportedly said that the Balkans weren't worth one Pomeranian Grenadier, but apparently 6 innocent Israeli deaths at the hands of Palestinian terrorist are only satiated by the deaths of hundreds of innocent women and children.

This is metaphor for the entire relationship. Gaza is at best a giant ghetto and at worst an enlarged concentration camp.

The one thing I got out of reading up on Winston Churchill is that one cannot ignore the legitimate rising aspirations of one's opposition, because doing so leads to the rise of illegitimate ones. The question in that part of the world is where is there a resolution to the conflict that provides for the legitimate rising aspirations of both sides?

You want peace, you have to a settlement that recognizes the legitimacy of legitimate rising aspirations on both sides (aka hope) and doesn't support or recognize the illegitimate rising aspirations on both sides (i.e. the extremists).

People fret that Israel is only 12 miles wide at it's narrow waist, but some how a two state resolution that has some would be Palestinian state partitioned into two contiguous territories (i.e. a -28 miles at the waist) as okay. I'm not sure that is fair. Thanks to extremist on both sides, that solution won't likely happen anyway.

In the mean time, the Palestinians continue to grow at a faster rate than the Jewish Israelis to the point that, even now, Jewish Israeli's constitute a minority in the lands that were once called British Palestine. Soon Palestinians will be pointing out the comaprisons between South Africa and Palestine/Israel and the issue of Minority rule and the hearding of the majority into Bantustans. The Palestinians will then cry out for a simple one state, one man, one vote rule. At that point the best Israel will be able to do is gain a Federated State (along the lines of Belgium today), with partitioned borders roughly the same as those proposed by the U.N. in 1948 (those were deemed fair at the time). This might happen around 2048.

To avoid that, it all gets back to finding a way to accommodate both sides legitimate rising aspirations for the future. Not an easy task. Perhaps Clinton can work miracles.

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People fret that Israel is only 12 miles wide at it's narrow waist, but some how a two state resolution that has some would be Palestinian state partitioned into two contiguous territories (i.e. a -28 miles at the waist) as okay. I'm not sure that is fair
12 miles wide is OK if your neighbors are not trying to destroy you.
Thanks to extremist on both sides, that solution won't likely happen anyway.
Israel was ready to give back 98% of West Bank and Israel left Gaza.
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Yeah, but it didn't happen. I can't recall what the current population of settlers in the West Bank currently are, but it's grown in the last 8 years.

The settlers are a metaphor for possibilities for a two state solution. The greater the number of settlers, the less the chance for a two state solution. This isn't to suggest that the settlers are THE problem, just one of the big problems. Extremists on both sides are the problem.

Somewhere in Game Theory is the notion that extremist on both sides will cooperate (without communication) to foil the moderates on both sides (See Robert Axelrod's seminal work in this area "The Evolution of Cooperation"). This was demonstrated with the assassination of Rabin by an extremist on the Israeli side (If I'm an Israeli with options, at that point I would have moved - because I don't want my fate driven by such people). So, in this issue I always blame the extremists on both sides - both want an existential struggle.

And the extremist like things like the current invasion of Gaza, because it breeds more extremist. Homas is happy to launch rockets into Israel. Why? Because it provokes an extreme response which creates a cycle that feeds on itself.

(By the way, I believe Spielberg's Munich was all about the Game Theory dynamic that Axelrod articulates).

Axelrod says that in a prolonged interaction (Game) between two egoist (Parties) cooperation (civility) is the most optimal, most logical strategy: thus neighbors tend to look out after each other. The second most optimal strategy that was game tested, is tit-for-tat: I punch you in the nose, you punch me back.

Axelrod says, that eventually tit-for-tat leads back to civility because, if I don't want to get punched in the nose anymore, I have to quit punching you in the nose. However, Axelrod found that if you know that the game will eventually end, even if it is many moves from now, then it pays to start cheating (not acting civilly/cooperatively) immediately. This is where the extremist come in: they perceive or desire an end to the game, in this case by the elimination of the other party.

A great example of these dynamics was the break down in diplomacy in Europe during the run up to World War II.

To the Western Allies (France and Great Britain) cooperative diplomacy made sense because they perceived an on going, never ending multipolar iterative game. When Hitler began to act uncivilly in that frame work, the allies bend over backward to send Hitler the message that they had every intention of continuing civil diplomacy in Europe - this underwrote the Munich appeasement (ironically) in 1938. To the allies cooperative diplomacy was rational (because of the Game Theory premise) and so they thought Hitler was acting irrationally. What the allies didn't realize was that Hitler wanted, and intended, to end the game, and if you for see the game ending, even if it's many moves from now, it pays to be uncivil immediately. Thus Hitler caught the allies so wrong footed that, they didn't recover their footing until the Battle of Britain, and just barely.

Extremist in the Israel/Palestinian situation are shooting for a single state solution where one side wins and the others side loses, completely. And they have proven that when things get to a certain point threatening their position, they are willing and able to drive events. When it looked like there might be peace in the 1990s through a two state solution, Rabin was assassinated by extremist - leaving the one state solution on the table.

There is no way a one state solution has a favorable outcome. It means either ethnic cleansing or a pluralistic state where the best outcome for Israeli Jews is federated partition, in the Belgian model, probably, roughly, right along the lines proposed in 1948 by the U.N. That might mean the end of the Jewish state. As far as I can tell, none of that is desirable or attractive, but given the leverage that extremist hold, I don't see that being avoided.

The point of Spielberg's "Munich", I think was that he felt that sooner or later cooperation has to emerge or the incivility (terrorist acts) will get bigger and bigger until civility becomes the driving strategy. I think Spielberg also makes the case for pluralism. The protagonist chooses to live as a Jew in the pluralistic society of the United States to avoid the tit-for-tat violence that comes with the non-pluralistic state of Israel. I think Spielberg was advocating for civility first and that it was and is obvious that that can only exist in a pluralistic state where freedom of religion is both guaranteed and the state itself remains secular - in other words Spielberg was pushing a single, pluralistic, secular state.

After seeing what happened in Ireland, a federated single state, with something like 1948 partitions, is probably a more likely outcome. That's not the preferred outcome. But it is more likely some time down the line when people finally get tire of killing each other, as they did in Ireland.

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Israel was ready to give back 98% of West Bank and Israel left Gaza.
The factual response to that, as you surely already know, is "No, it wasn't." Not even Ehud Barak, a veritable fount of self-serving protestations of how his failures belong to everybody but him, has made such a ridiculous claim.

But let's give your fabrication its due. Let's say that you're right, and all of this misery results from Israel's unwillingness to give back 2% of Palestinian land. Are you trying to convince us that Israel's leadership is crazy? Stupid? How can you possibly justify trying to hang on to even 2% of somebody else's land, if this is the price?

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Are you trying to convince us that Palestinians's leadership is crazy? Stupid? How can you possibly justify trying to fight for few square miles and keep own people in misery for another generation?

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Israel doesn't keep own people in misery. Every year Israel is getting stronger and more prosperous while Palestinians in Gaza are living in misery under Hamas crazy rule. The irony is that Israel doesn't need anything from Gaza. if Gaza rules leave Israel alone, they can build a prosperous society in Gaza. However, Iran doesn't pay Hamas to build a a prosperous society in Gaza.

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Who are "Israel's own people?"

Does it include the 25% of Israelis who are not Jewish?

Do those 25% enjoy the same great prosperity and freedom and benefits of being Israeli citizens that Jewish Israelis do?

The things I've read would suggest not.

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It's unfortunate, but not at all surprising, that you are left sputtering like that when confronted with basic facts.

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"Enjoy while supply of dead Palestinian children last."

SholomA - Is your heart really that cold and dead?

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Well, yes, of course. Ariel Sharon did not evacuate Gaza to serve the Oslo peace process. But he evacuated Gaza all the same. His motivation is not as interesting to me as the colossal reality. Yes, it was wrong to do unilaterally -- I agree with Daniel on that -- but he did it! And Daniel knows as well as I do that Sharon's successor, Ehud Olmert, hoped to do the same thing across much of the West Bank. But what stopped him? Palestinian rockets from Gaza, a special gift from Hamas. Palestinians interested in a two-state solution would have viewed the withdrawal in 2005 as a first, important step toward independence. They would have used the billions in aid money that flowed to Gaza to build schools and hospitals and roads and farms on the abandoned land of the Jewish settlements. But they turned those ruined settlements into rocket launching pads. Sharon was wrong to pull out of Gaza without extracting concessions from the Palestinians, and he should have done it in the framework of a negotiation, but that doesn't change the fact that he gave the Palestinians of Gaza what they said they wanted.
http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/
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Actually the reason is important. It's called demographics. The Palestinians are increasing demographically much faster than Israeli Jews.

If Israel formally controls itself, the West Bank and Gaza, then Jews become a minority in the lands that they control.

At that point - you have Minority Rule and the South African precedent is invoked: Israel Palestine becomes a land of Minority rule and the West Bank and Gaza start to look like Bantustans. The idea that Israel is a liberal democracy in the Middle East disappears.

Sharon looked at this rising demographic problem and realized that he couldn't keep both the West Bank and Gaza. Since the West Bank was strategically far more important and Gaza almost worthless, he forced the settlers out of Gaza and abandoned control of it. When he did that, he technically took the demographic question off the table.

That I think is important. Demographics is driving the strategies being employed in the Middle East - and it is far and away the biggest threat to Israel. Sharon bought some time, but that still remains the biggest problem. I'm not sure how anyone can solve that either.

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If you care about the facts of the 'withdrawal' from Gaza, and what it meant for the people forced to live there, you can read them here.

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Bad news:


Electro-optic technology has been used by researchers from the Technion-Israel Institute of Technology for an urgent purpose - locating tunnels through which arms and other goods are smuggled by terrorists.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231167283321&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

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MJ: I watched Stewart on Monday was just bowled over. Even better, the audience reaction when he mocked Mayor Bloomberg's stupid analogy of comparing Hamas (paraphrasing) to "a crazy guy pounding on your apartment door threatening to kill your family." Stewart mocked: Maybe you shouldn't make that crazy guy live in your hallway.

Notice that SholomA/Davai/thnathan is continuing to post links from Jeffrey Goldberg, a former IDF soldier and friend of Mohammad Dahlan, the notorious torturer of fellow Palestinians.

They are very convincing, aren't they?

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For you, only Hamas press releases are convincing.

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I think they probably have equal credibility to Jeffrey Goldberg.

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These guys are pathetic. Imagine what it must be like enjoying the slaughter of kids.
It's dad. With the exception of Bar Kafka and YBD, sometimes, the Israel firsters who post here are (1) invariably not a home using English and (2) have the sensibilities of a white supremacist in Alabama in 1960.
Knowing that they are part of a beleaguered minority, they just lash out.
But history only moves in one direction.

In Israel, in the 1960's, I used to listen to the transistor radio late at night. All these cool foreign broadcasts on regular AM.

Anyway, my favorite was Radio Rhodesia. It spewed racist craziness in beautiful accents and end all broadcasts with: "Remember, The West Will Win."

The West did win. But there is no Rhodesia. It is in the same place where the occupation of the West Bank/ Gaza and East Jerusalem will be in a few months or years.

Colonialism is finished. Thank God.

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Hamas and M.J are not after West Bank/ Gaza and East Jerusalem. They are after Tel-Aviv.
It's true, It hard to imagine what it must be like enjoying the slaughter of kids like you do.

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No, the Jews built Tel Aviv. I think most Palestinians just want to be to travel from Nablus to Ramallah without having to undergo a full cavity search.

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MJ, now that's interesting. I was thinking about that for some time, but now that you mentioned this, I have a question (real, not rhetorical):
Yes, there is no Rhodesia, which is a good thing, but in it's place we have Mugabe's Zimbabwe. From what I hear about the life there, Ian Smith would win free and fair elections against Mugabe in a landslide (actually I think a broom would...). And an otherwise decent government of South Africa is propping Mugabe up, perhaps because of a false sense of racial solidarity.

Any thoughts and parallels? What will happen when the two-state solution, which both you and I want as a way out of the current unsustainable situation, will lead to a Zimbabwe with a capital in Jerusalem, armed with Iranian missiles. And their only export source of hard currency would be dead Jews. Yes, we can all wash our hands (as we did with Zimbabwe), but what about the missiles? What do we do to make sure all Israeli Jews don't share the plight of Rhodesian whites?

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I suppose, after that last post, you can expect more calls, from friends of Safire.


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He is going to get money from Hamas for a good work.

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This same comment could have been posted last year, two years ago, five years ago etc. For MJ Rosenberg, the zeitgeist is always shifting, Israel is always about to lost support for its wicked ways, it's all just around the corner. Just you wait!

Feh! Not likely. The same dynamic has been going on for years. Any Israeli military action at all produces much sound and fury. The left is outraged. The media focuses on the poor Palestinians. Various useful idiots make excuses for the lunatics of Hamas and say it's all about the occupation (and the fact that Israel has shown itself willing and able to uproot settlements in Gaza doesn't shift the focus away from "occupation" one iota). But somehow, through it all, Israel maintains its support. Why? Because no matter how many mistakes Israel makes, no matter how hamfisted it can be, no matter how ugly some of its tactics have been, most people realize that at its core, Israel is a decent democracy with Western values which respects human rights and the rule of law. By contrast, the Palestinians, despite their suffering and despite all the death and destruction rained down on them, are at their core a supremely unattractive object of sympathy. Incompetent and corrupt at best, Palestinian society at its worst is monstrously barbaric. Yes, yes, that doesn't mean they don't have rights as human beings. Sure.

But if you ask yourself why people are always predicting the collapse of Israel's support, but it never seems to happen, start with a basic understanding of just who you anti-Israel folks are supporting.

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BradthDad says: "By contrast, the Palestinians, despite their suffering and despite all the death and destruction rained down on them, are at their core a supremely unattractive object of sympathy."

Among bigots, you are right. Among decent people, you are wrong. I guess we know what trash you hang around with.

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I guess most Americans are bigots then. Only you and your right-thinking friends are "decent people".

Glad we're straight on that.

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Yes, I am right. Thanks for acknowledging the truth.

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Brad is referring to 'Jews Only' human rights in Israel. For the entire population of Israel, the State Dept. reported a different story in 2000:

The State Department's "Country Reports on Human Rights Practices 2000: Occupied Territories" (February 2001) states unequivocally that "Israel's overall human rights record in the occupied territories [is] poor." It goes on to report that:

Israeli security forces committed numerous serious human rights abuses during the year.... Since the violence began, [September 2000] Israeli security units often used excessive force against Palestinian demonstrators. Israeli security forces sometimes exceeded their rules of engagement, which provide that live fire is only to be used when the lives of soldiers, police, or civilians are in imminent danger. ...Israeli security forces abused Palestinians in detention suspected of security offenses. ... There were numerous credible allegations that police beat persons in detention. Three Palestinian prisoners died in Israeli custody under ambiguous circumstances during the year. Prison conditions are poor. Prolonged detention, limits on due process, and infringements on privacy rights remained problems. Israeli security forces sometimes impeded the provision of medical assistance to Palestinian civilians. Israeli security forces destroyed Palestinian-owned agricultural land. Israeli authorities censored Palestinian publications, placed limits on freedom of assembly, and restricted freedom of movement for Palestinians.

Often lauded as the only democracy in the Middle East, Israel nevertheless appears to have difficulty applying its high human rights standards to non-Jews. One might plausibly argue that these standards are, out of necessity, suspended in areas under military occupation were it not for the fact that the Jewish settler population in the territories benefits from the same rights and privileges accorded their counterparts within Israel's internationally recognized borders.

One might also argue that Palestinians with Israeli citizenship are equal participants in the country's democratic social institutions were it not for certain serious problems such as the fact that nearly 70,000 Arab Israelis live in legal limbo: the more than 100 villages they live in within Israel are unrecognized by the government. As a result these residents pay taxes to the government but are "not eligible for government services...."

"Consequently, such villages have none of the infrastructure, such as electricity, water, and sewers, provided to recognized communities. The lack of basic services has caused difficulties for the villagers in regard to their education, health care, and employment opportunities. New building in the unrecognized villages is considered illegal and subject to demolition."

Country Reports on Human Rights Practices 2000 [CRHP 2000]: Israel, US State Department, February 2001.

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BTD said:

The same dynamic has been going on for years. Any Israeli military action at all produces much sound and fury. The left is outraged. The media focuses on the poor Palestinians. Various useful idiots make excuses for the lunatics of Hamas and say it's all about the occupation (and the fact that Israel has shown itself willing and able to uproot settlements in Gaza doesn't shift the focus away from "occupation" one iota). But somehow, through it all, Israel maintains its support.

You forget Brad, everything changed after 9/11. Or, more precisely, everything changed after the publication of the 9/11 Commission Report and Walt & Mearshimer's analysis of it's findings:

"A critically important issue when talking about America's terrorism problem is the matter of how US support for Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinians relates to what happened on September 11," said Mearsheimer...

Mearsheimer suggested that the notion of payback for injustices suffered by the Palestinians is perhaps the "most powerfully recurrent in [Osama] Bin Laden's speeches," who, he said, had been deeply concerned about the plight of the Palestinians since he was a young man. He said that Bin Laden's concern had been reflected in his public statements throughout the 1990's - "well before 9-11." Citing the 9-11 Commission report, Mearsheimer and Walt argued that Bin Laden wanted to make sure the attackers struck Congress because it is "the most important source of support for Israel in the United States," adding that Bin Laden twice tried to move up the dates of the attacks because of events involving Israel. Mearsheimer and Walt went on to argue that 9-11 architect Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's animus toward the United States stemmed not from his experiences in the United States as a student, but rather from his violent disagreement with US foreign policy favoring Israel. "Its hard to imagine more compelling evidence of the role US support for Israel played in the 9-11 attacks," said Mearsheimer.

"In short, the present relationship between Washington and Jerusalem is helping to fuel America's terrorism problem," he went on to say.

They said that US support for Israel motivates some individuals to attack the United States and "...serves as an important recruitment tool for terrorist organizations," according to Mearsheimer. He said that US support for Israel generates huge support for terrorists in the Arab and Islamic world.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:URoobyyeLsUJ:www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite%3Fpagename%3DJPost%252FJPArticle%252FShowFull%26cid%3D1191257274889+9/11+commission+report+Israel+cause+of+terrorism&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us&client=firefox

This is not to say that our unquestioning support for Israel is to blame for terrorism and anti-Americanism in the Islamic world, but it does create a major stumbling block in our relationships with countries with a large Muslim population.

More and more, it seems as if the two parties - Israelis and Palestinians - just aren't capable of coming to a resolution on their own. Perhaps it's time for international intervention. That would give the moderates in Israel cover; the settlements in the OTs could be removed but the moderates could say they were being forced to do it, and there would be less chance of domestic upheaval that way (although there surely would still be some). The same thing goes for the Palestinians. If they were required, as a result of an international intervention, to relinquish for the most part the Right of Return, or to accept reparations in return for relinquishing it, they also could turn to the more extreme segments of their populations, or those segments more easily influenced by the extremists, and throw up their hands and say, "We had no choice." With a generous settlement from Israel, lots of international development attention and funds, and hope for the first time in years, I think most Palestinians would move on with building their new lives. Similarly, the majority of Israelis would probably do the same.

The extremists on both sides will never be happy. Why let them decide on the outcome? Or dictate the ongoing lack of an outcome?

You're completely right about one thing, Brad. What's been done for decades simply hasn't worked. It's time for something new.

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It's funny, but even assuming Walt and Mearsheimer are correct in saying that American support for Israel was a prime force behind the 9/11 attacks, the reaction of the American people was just the opposite of what you'd expect. Support for Israel has remained steady in the post-9/11 world and very few are apt to draw the conclusion that we should drop Israel as an ally to placate the terrorists.

As for the tired idea that the international community should force a settlement on Israel, I can tell you it will never happen. Well - it's probably a mistake to say never. Let's say that Israel's position and power will have to have deteriorated catastrophically for this to happen.

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BTD said:

Support for Israel has remained steady in the post-9/11 world and very few are apt to draw the conclusion that we should drop Israel as an ally to placate the terrorists.

It all depends on what is meant by "support," doesn't it? I myself am of the opinion that the U.S should of course continue to support Israel's existance - it's Israel's actions that are the problem, and support is waning for those. And I don't think W&M suggested Israel should be dropped as an ally (I certainly don't think so).

We just shouldn't be in the business of enabling Israeli activities that lead away from a peaceful resolution. For instance, how many more potential terrorists have been created by Israel's bombing and killing of civilians in Gaza? And it's becoming increasingly clear that Israel does not have the will (or ability?) to confront the settlers and end it's de facto policy of illegal settlement in the Occupied Territories, which we, through our financial support of Israel are funding, albeit indirectly.

Especially after this latest flare up, many more Americans are speaking out. They do not want our country to blindly support Israel (* see info on polling, below). Anyway, for the U.S. to apply pressure on Israel to come to the table in good faith to achieve a lasting peace would be the very best thing we could do as an ally of Israel.

Friends don't let friends drive drunk.

(* Several recent polls support this statement. The results of the World Opinion Poll, conducted by the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland, released even before the Gaza war (July 2008), found that 71% of Americans did not want the U.S. to take a side in the conflict; only 21% favored taking Israel's side. Similarly, the recent Rassmussen poll found that Americans were just about split down the middle on whether Israel should have been taking military action in Gaza, and also found that 51% fear Israel’s actions will cause more terrorism against the United States.)

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start with a basic understanding of just who you anti-Israel folks are supporting.

It's a little surreal seeing this ragged echo of the Bushites' weak-ass "Why do you hate America?" line of attack, which went out of style somewhere around September, 2005, if not long before.

It would be kinda funny were the bodies of innocents, including children, not being pulled from rubble in Gaza, and were the cause that these armchair warriors promote not handing Hamas exactly what it wants.

But it's a win-win for evil -- Hamas, having exploited the power vacuum that hamfisted American and Israeli policies created, gets more dead kids to use in its recruiting. A disgraced Israeli regime gets some trophy scalps going into an election. Some big talking little shits in Long Island or wherever get a brief reprieve from worrying about their penis size or whatever motivates their racial blood-lust.

But of course, in the long run, it's awful for Israel and awful for America, because the world sees this and is revulsed, and because we've become numb to it -- or many of us have. Hallelujia Jon Stewart hasn't, and is around to shake us out of our inhumane torpor.

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It's a little surreal seeing this ragged echo of the Bushites' weak-ass "Why do you hate America?" line of attack, which went out of style somewhere around September, 2005, if not long before.

Whatever. My point was about why Israel retains solid support. Part of the reason, I believe, is the nature of the Palestinians. If you disagree, fine. But comparing me with post-9/11 wingnuts is just silly.

But it's a win-win for evil -- Hamas, having exploited the power vacuum that hamfisted American and Israeli policies created, gets more dead kids to use in its recruiting. A disgraced Israeli regime gets some trophy scalps going into an election.

There's no question that every time Israel acts militarily, there is the chance that the Palestinians will get further radicalized. However, you seem to assume that if Israel's policies weren't so "hamfisted" or that if it didn't act militarily, Hamas would weaken. It won't. Hamas's greatest growth period was during the period of the Oslo peace process. There is absolutely no reason to think that Israeli concessions will appease Hamas.

In making its strategic calculations, Israel needs to weigh benefits and costs. The strategic benefit of a weakened Hamas, a degraded rocket-launching capability (including destroying the tunnels - an absolute imperative) and a restored deterrence need to be compared with the costs of dead civilians, a worse international reputation and, yes, some long-term radicalization of some part of the Palestinian population. I'm not pretending that these aren't difficult calculations to make. And I'm also not pretending that electoral politics doesn't play a role, as it always does in a democracy. But the point is that while Palestinian radicalization is a real cost that needs to be considered, it is not the only relevant factor.

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I see MJ, you are keeping score. Almost every personality who comes out on your side merits a whole blog posting, as if it really matter. I have never heard of John Stewart, neither has almost anybody in Israel and we couldn't care less. I am surprised you missed Roseanne Barr, she is on your side but you didn't mention it.

Funny you mentioned the following, it really reflects your Jewish angst/guilt problem:
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But there is no Rhodesia. It is in the same place where the occupation of the West Bank/ Gaza and East Jerusalem will be in a few months or years.
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You forgot to add that there is almost no Zimbabwe, either... a country where the gov't keeps food short in order to control the population, where there are AIDS and cholera plagues and millions are fleeing the country. For you, and the other progressives, the only thing that mattered was getting the white face (Ian Smith) out and the black face (Robert Mugabe) in. Doesn't matter that Mugabe has destroyed a country that was once the jewel of Africa, a major food exporter that now has famine. Just get the white face out and the black face and to hell with the people of the country. You are doing the same with us. You sympathize with Arab terrorists simply to prove that you are one of the "good Jews" who jumps to the whims of the latest poltically correct "progressive" line. You are the ones who said "it doesn't matter that Arafat is a terrorist mass murderer whose FATAH terroirst are corrupt, mafia-like gangsters". So what that he ignited civil wars in TWO countries (Jordan and Lebanon) with tens of thousands of dead. Turn them loose in the Palestinian territories which they will destroy, but we "progressive" Jews at least will feel good about ourselves....to hell with the Jews of Israel and the Palestinians, they are thousands of miles away from your comfy home there in DC. You call that the "inevitablity of history?"

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Brilliant.

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Brilliant? What curve are you grading on?

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I knew some idiot would bring up Mugabe as a justification for British colonialism and thereby equating Israeli policies in OT as a form of colonialism. Do you zionists really want to make that argument. Well go ahead. But I suggest you run it by the IDF propaganda dept first, I think they may be a little appalled. And Brad the brain dead calls this brilliant.

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Bradley: Think ETHICALLY not ETHNICALLY!!!!

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I love these Israel Firsters. Is there any information that they have on the Middle East that they didnt learn in Hebrew school?
Are any of them NOT Jewish (not counting Members of Congress who, as we all know, are a special category).
So you have settler-supporting Jews, Russian Jews, former Russian Jews, rightwing Israelis and people from Long Island who spent a week in Israel versus, say, the likes of Daniel Levy who emigrated to Israel as at 20, served in the military, is an Israeli citizen and is the leading opponent of Israel's current policies.
Why?
Because.....HE"S A SELF-HATING JEW.
The only amusement I'm getting during this war is seeing the pain it is causing its supporters. They are out there alone.
In the Rasmussen poll, Republicans are all gungho for this war while Dems oppose it. The handwriting is on the wall.
If you love Ehud Barak, vote for Sara P in 2012!!!

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or people like Jeffrey Goldberg who who emigrated to Israel served in the military however who is not Hamas Firsters like M.J and Daniel Levy.

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Yes, but then Goldberg came back. Israel's gain is our loss.

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By "self-hating Jew" they mean a Jew who loves other human beings. Take it as a compliment.

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I do.

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Who do you want Israeli vote for?

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You lost M.J. the Hamas lobby is not going to be represented in the Obama administration:
Transition officials confirm that President-elect Obama has asked Dennis Ross, Richard Haass, and Richard Holbrooke, to serve as his chief emissaries to world hot spots.
Ross, speaking at a Washington-area synagoque on Monday, said that, in his opinion, the U.S. should support a new cease-fire in Gaza only if it guaranteed the end of Hamas's "capability to rearm."

Ross, a counselor and distinguished fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, said achieving an Israeli-Palestinian agreement now would be much different than his last attempt in 2000. Not only is the Palestinian Authority divided and much weaker, he said, but the Israeli public doesn't believe such an agreement is possible.

Israel left Lebanon and Gaza, and in both instances, "things got a whole worse" -- which doesn't provide much confidence about a withdrawal from the West Bank, he said.

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/01/ross_holbrooke_haass_to_serve.php

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Yes, the Isarelis should stay. It is easier to fight Apartheid when the Apartheid Apparatus is visible.

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The Associated Press confirmed the Israeli Defense Force’s claim that Hamas fighters were firing from the UN school in Gaza, which lead to Israeli troops to return fire and tragically kill more than 30 Palestinian civilians. As with much of the reporting on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, many initial reports focused on the Israeli “attack” on the school and played up the civilian deaths. The initial reports aided the Palestinian / Hamas narrative that the Israelis are committing war crimes during its operations in Gaza. But, as Michael Totten noted yesterday in his criticism of media reports, the real war crime was committed by Hamas for firing from the school and apparently rigging it with explosives: A responsible journalist might also add that what Hamas did is a war crime under international law, and that Hamas is responsible for every civilian killed at that school. Rigging a school with explosives and using it as a base in a war zone is a crime precisely because it endangers the lives of civilians, and in this case of children.
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That conflict with Sky News. I want to see a link because it reeks of being copied from a right wing rag.

Besides, If I was walking down the street and someone out of the blue fired a gun at me from the direction of a school, would I be concerned? Of Course. Would I want to see what happened and help out if I could? Certainly. But I wouldn't pull out my gun and unload a magazine in the direction of the school. Your logic is crap.

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In other words, according to your logic, any civilian area is considered a "base" for Hamas, Taliban or any other terrorist group. They should be allowed to send rockets to kill American forces in Afghanistan or to kill civilians in Israel, but American or Israeli forces could only "see what happened".

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You are right to be skeptical, Victor.
UN: Israel Admits Claims About Attacked School Baseless

"The Israeli army is briefing diplomats privately that the militant fire from Jablia yesterday did not come from inside the UNRWA school compound, but from the outside," said Chris Gunness, a spokesman for the UN Relief Works Agency, which aids Palestinian refugees. Gunness said the claim was a "major allegation against a neutral UN development agency" which "within a day turns out to be completely baseless."
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Sometimes the right wing rags get the story right. Cases in point: the Jenin "massacre" in 2002, which caused all kinds of hysterics until it was proven beyond a doubt that the Palestinians just made all kids of shit up and no "massacre" had taken place at all. And of course the sad, sad case of Mohammed al-Durra, the 12-year old whose death was used as a propaganda vehicle for the Palestinians until it was conclusively proven he was not killed by Israelis. In both cases, the accepted narrative was that Israel was at fault and it was right-wing pro-Israel media who debunked that story.

Not to turn myself into an apologist for the likes of Fox News or Frontpage.com or Newsmax. Lord knows they do their share of lying. And of course they are silent when the truth doesn't make Israel look so good. But sadly, they are often the only ones willing to clean the dreck that is most coverage of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

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According to Wiki, both sides made false claims about Jenin. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin

But Human Rights Watch did find evidence of War Crimes by Israel. A decent person would have acknowledged that.

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But Human Rights Watch did find evidence of War Crimes by Hamas. A decent person would have acknowledged that.

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But they didn't, and you are just lying. Here's tfa for the record:

In early May, Human Rights Watch completed its report on Jenin. The report said there was no massacre, but did accuse the IDF of committing war crimes.[65] On April 18, Derrick Pounder, a British forensic expert who was part of an Amnesty International team granted access to Jenin, said: "I must say that the evidence before us at the moment doesn't lead us to believe that the allegations are anything other than truthful and that therefore there are large numbers of civilian dead underneath these bulldozed and bombed ruins that we see".[34] In November, Amnesty International reported that there was "clear evidence" that the IDF committed war crimes against Palestinian civilians, including unlawful killings and torture, in Jenin and Nablus.[66] The Observer reporter, Peter Beaumont, wrote that what happened in Jenin was not a massacre, but that the mass destruction of houses was a war crime.[67]
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LOLZ to Brad. He is pulling stories out of his tuchus. How about some links to back up your fancies?

At the very least, the story of
Muhammed al-Durra is not the fait accompli that Brad would wish us to believe. Why is that?


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Keep it up.In Ft. Lauderdale yesterday the anti- Isreal demonstrators were yelling "send the jews to the ovens". Believe me when they come for the jews they will not differentiate between the lefties and the righties.If you think I am paranoid and afraid and "off topic" you are wrong. Jew hating has not gone away.

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Please, Mr. Rosenberg, announce your candidacy against Chris Van Hollen on Jon Stewart's show. I promise to watch.

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Why would I do that? He's a liberal Dem with whom I have differences on the Mideast. But -- now listen hard -- I vote for Chris because I share his view of the kind of America we want. I don't care only about situations abroad. You see, I'm an American. I'm not, as you obviously are, someone who just sits here and has my heart someplace else.

Love it or leave it, pal.

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Thanks, nelle, for joining the ranks of the sensible here.

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Why would I want to leave America? The candidate I supported with more money you did is going to be President, and he and Joe Biden and Hilary Clinton are going to do their utmost to (i) stop the good citizens of Israel from being terrorized and (ii) get (a) Egypt to stop turning a blind eye to smuggling rockets through the tunnels, and (b) Saudi Arabia to stop fooling around and finally put enough pressure on Abbass to take a renewed, slighty revised version of the Clinton-Taba deal. That's the same deal your cohort, Kristof, is pushing for this morning.

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Whoever thinks that Hamas' sensibilities are similar to Western ones should ask himself some hard questions. Such as: why don't the Arab residents of the Gaza strip set up protest demonstrations against the Hamas "government"? What, are they afraid of being murdered? Hmmm, that doesn't jive with Western sensibilities. Or: what happened to all the money sent by the international community to the Palistinians to help them develop their state-in-process. Was it used to pay Egypt or Iran for weapons? Or socked in a Swiss bank account? Hmm, where is the financial accountability that exists in a Western country? Or how about this one: Why do they train their children to become suicide bombers? Hmmm, you mean there are no laws protecting the rights of children? Western civilizations provide basic rights for their citizens while the the Hamas government feels they can do whatever they want with theirs. They want to be a state? THEY first have to provide their own people with rights, just like the Founding Fathers did in the U.S. when the American government was first set up. Until then, as a person who supports human rights, I have to say that it is the Palestinian government who are acting as uncivilized barbarians, and I don't see much hope in their setting up a "democratic" state.

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Thanks, nelle, for joining the ranks of the sensible here.

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