Should America Mind Its Own Beeswax?
Basically, Michael is asking how much we should care about goings-on in other lands; how much we should do about them; and how the first question relates to the second. It's one thing to be horrified by man's inhumanity to other (wo)men, but another to view it as an imperative to get involved. Doesn't the nation-state system offer valuable stability, which we weaken at our own peril?
The arduous efforts to democratize Iraq and Afghanistan are nothing if not injunctions to be less ambitious, meddlesome, and presumptuous. But how cautious should we be? Can the values agenda be pursued more prudently, or would the truly prudent course be to ditch that agenda altogether?
Michael's safe-for-democracy strategy is too passive, heartless, and unambitious for my taste. On the other hand, I think many of the related concerns can be assimilated into a more carefully calibrated liberal interventionism.
Here are some of the precepts that could guide a search for the right balance:
- Pursue reform, redress, and relief rather than sweeping transformation. As we attempt to coax significant social, political, or policy change in other countries, the aim should be to modulate local power relationships rather than upend them. For one thing, it's usually impossible; for another, if it is possible, it can worsen matters rather than improve them (see Iraq).
- Sending in the cavalry usually isn't an option. Win-win diplomacy won't help with the tough cases, but a sizable military intervention won't be realistic either, in most cases. The real point is to apply the most pressure that you can. The best ideas for Darfur have been those that keep the heat on Khartoum without pretending it would be easy to go in and take charge of the situation.
- Sovereignty matters. The idea of a paradigm shift by which the international system would be based on the rights of individuals a fantasy. It's also something of a straw man in the discourse. Kofi Annan's ill-fated UN reform push (heroic in my view) was premised on the need for strong sovereign states, which provide necessary structures of social order upon which individuals depend. On the other hand, sovereignty is not absolute and is hard to justify if it provides nothing but depredation and abuse.
- Peace is a value too. The central fallacy of neoconservatism is that regime character trumps all -- evil leaders cannot be trusted to exercise any restraint. This is the approach that, by refusing to talk to North Korea, leaves an opening for Pyongyang to further its nuclear program. In fact, regimes that are reprehensible internally can (be induced to) play by certain rules internationally.
- We can't just work with other democracies. Here I agree wholeheartedly with Michael. This is a corollary of the precept just above, applied to major powers rather than so-called rogues.
- We don't have to hold our tongues about the internal shortcomings of other powers. And shouldn't. While the Cold War example of democracy sweeping across Eastern Europe is not a reliable template for political reform and progress, and the Chinese Communist Party can't be expected to abandon its concerns about stability, it's more than reasonable to argue that China will need reform and pluralism in order to absorb inevitable pressures for change.
- The United States can't pursue the values agenda all on its own. Or any other agenda, for that matter. But especially in matters of moral authority and political legitimacy, the necessary legitimacy -- and international pressure -- can only be marshalled collectively.
To Michael, even this calibrated interventionism will probably seem like a recipe for overextension. To me, it's how we have to deal with a world that becomes more interdependent by the hour.

















At the very least, these are the types of discussions that will move us toward a more nuanced, cautious approach when it comes to trying to affect change or react to situations in the rest of the world. Excellent post.
-- Cris
My site: Obama Wallpaper Archive
December 2, 2008 2:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
Trying to control events around the globe is a hopeless task. Let's look at the Mumbai massacres for example. The USA and NATO have gotten themselves into a position where, in India, (which, despite its “vibrant democracy” and “dynamic new middle class”, is still basically a tin pot country where millions live and die in surreal poverty), a handful of gunmen can put the “West’s” entire Afghan house of cards in jeopardy.
It is time to take a few steps back and rethink all of this mishagoss.
December 2, 2008 2:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Shoulda listened:
December 2, 2008 3:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Then again, Adams never envisioned the growth of our military-industrial complex which would starve in the world so described.
Instead, we gotta' feed the beast. Where do you suppose the next war can be prosecuted?
December 2, 2008 7:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
Clearly Iran is tops of the list. Although they might find a way to make it Syria just because.
December 3, 2008 3:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, America should mind it's own beeswax.
December 2, 2008 8:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Dear David,
Having read Mr. Lind's book, I think he'd probably agree with what you say here. It's also true that the larger piece of his thesis deals with making the world "safe for democracy" and, more specifically, safe for America and the American way of life.
There is a small piece of this thesis (at least in terms of the real estate devoted to it) that deals with intervening in other countries the case of genocide. I think I have that right.
But the largest piece of his thesis, as I read it, has to do with preventing the emergence (or circumscribing the power) of other hegemons whose power might eventually threaten the American way of life by forcing us to adopt one of the three dystopias. This "prevention" does involve conflict, even military conflict, but he sees the US as wielding this power in concert with other powers--so the burden doesn't fall all on our shoulders and to attract international justification for the action (I think).
December 2, 2008 9:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Cut all branches of the military, except the Coast Guard, in half.
Cut the Pentagon budget in half.
Then do good around the world.
December 2, 2008 11:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I have a lot of volumes regards America's involvement in South Vietnam on my bookshelves. I spent some time there in the 4th Infantry in '69.
In light of Obama's intentions for Afghanistan, all I can do presently is include the following quote from Juan Cole, taken from his website of today:
If McGeorge Bundy were alive today, I like to think that he would jump up and down screaming, attempting to get all of us to focus on Cole's final sentence included above. Despite their (by western standards) nefarious values regarding women, art and things not muslim, are not they first and foremost nationalists of their own country? Al Qaeda is long gone from their precincts, it appears.
It's not too hard to imagine someone in the new administration starting to call them communist subversives, come April. I mean, please, they're already "terrorists", aren't they?
December 2, 2008 11:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
HEADLINE: "Obama Receiving Attention for His Management Style."
(Yes, it bears repeating.)
December 2, 2008 11:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
TPM HEADLINE: "Obama Receiving Attention for His Management Style" (Pt. II):
Dear PE Obama,
forget for awhile about reading anything on Lincoln. Instead, get ahold of a slim little volume, a memoir penned by a reporter who covered the war in South Vietnam in 1967 and 1968.
It's title is Dispatches. The author is Michael Herr. If you're familiar with Coppola's film 'Apocalypse Now', certain scenes sketched by Herr will ring a bell. But please, pay very close attention to the section titled 'Khe Sanh'.
Once the party really gets going in Afghanistan, do you anticipate greeting any of the arriving coffins at Dover Air Force Base? Arlington is White House adjacent, quite convenient in fact. Only a ten minute ride back to the Oval Office and your next appointment, in the wake of every or whatever funeral you are destined to attend.
JFK's first big mistake was The Bay of Pigs. That was three months in. It seems as though you've already made yours.
December 3, 2008 5:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Because the US had such a stellar record throughout the 20th century that they carried into the 21st, why on earth would you consider a change of policy?
Just the last 60 years from S. Africa to Egypt to Greece to Iran. Cuba and Nicaragua to Vietnam to Pakistan. Except for Japan and West Germany it would be more difficult to name successes than the litany of interventions at all levels where the blow-back and outcome was unimagined and unforseen. Even the anti-USSR campaign in Afghanistan in the 80s.
I can see an exception for genocide, but that is one we've yet to fulfill successfully. Cambodia, Rwanda, Darfur.
There is no reason for everyone to have to live as the US would wish them to, or even for the benefit of the US if they so decide against.
I think most of the world would point out that their experience of the benefits of US intervention to the country in question, her neighbors and the world at large are highly overrated.
Work with the world.
December 3, 2008 1:43 AM | Reply | Permalink