Get Ready for the Post-Mumbai Muslim Bashing
The Mumbai terror attacks were appalling. That should go without saying.
But we all need to be on guard as the usual Muslim bashers go rushing to the barricades to indict Pakistan (with no evidence of its involvement) and Muslims in general.
Take a look at this garbage from the New Republic. Martin Peretz is practically wetting his pants in excitement at the possibility that Mumbai can be used against....the Palestinians.
The Israeli right (in Israel and here) strongly supports, and works with, the Hindu/ BJP right in India on the predictable grounds that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. There will be a joint effort to blame Islam as a civilization for this horror. As for Pakistan, it could be implicated but so far it hasn't been.
So let's not fall for propaganda. The facts are bad enough.













I watch CNN often and I noticed that for a few years after 9/11 Wolf Blitzer seemed to see al Qaeda coming out of the woodwork.
Train wreck;
"Any signs of al Qaeda, Joe"?
Attack in Korea;
"Bill, does the White House see al Qaeda behind this attack?"
For the last year or so he's backed off mentioning them, but, considering it was India, of all the possible suspects when the Mumbai attack got underway there was old Wolf babbling about al Qaeda.
November 30, 2008 11:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Let's just call them the boogeymen and hide under our beds.
November 30, 2008 11:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yep. There will be an absolute flood of stories and columns deploring how awful Muslims are. There will, of course, be no mention of the Hindu Nationalists in Indian who have been waging all out war against India's Muslim minority for over a decade. Nor will anybody notice the reports that most of the attackers spoke perfect Indian Hindi and were thus undoubtedly local people. Likewise no one will mention that while India has the second largest Muslim population in the world, there has been relatively little Islamic terrorist activity that is not linked to Kashmir and Punjab.
November 30, 2008 11:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
So true. Besides the BBC, who else gave coverage to the Hindu-led ethnic cleansing in Gujarat? Whole trains of people burned alive? Many, many thousands of Muslims were murdered. Did CNN devote days of coverage to that?
Notice that even the Honorary Citizen of Bangalore, Tom Friedman, never mentions the Hindu-inspired violence and widow-burning that occur daily in his idealized version of India.
November 30, 2008 5:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
What do the above two comments have to do with what is going on right now? I am Indian, not Muslim, and am completely ashamed and angry about what happened in Gujarat. But, that doesn't make me any less angry about what just happened in Bombay, and if the attackers were Muslim and Pakistani (which it appears they were), then yes, I will blame ideology for it. One can blame Muslim extremists and still think not all Muslims are bad without one's head exploding. But I also don't care to read sanctimonious twaddle about how the Hindus massacred Muslims on the day after several of my countrymen (Hindus, Muslims, Christians) died at the hands of Muslim terrorists.
December 1, 2008 12:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
GMA: I don't consider a siege that results in 200 hundred death the equivalent of full scale ethnic cleasing that results in thousands of deaths.
Sanctimonious, what me? Why don't you go back to worshipping cows and burning your widows.
December 1, 2008 10:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'd say that qualifies as abusive. Quit being a jerk and stick to your point which was a decent one.
December 1, 2008 11:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
It was intended to be. I am not going to be manipulated into "special outrage" just because the Hindus are the victims...today.
Mortal outrage must be consistent. That guy's isn't.
December 1, 2008 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't think my comment was asking for special outrage.
Think of it this way ... on the day after 9/11, assuming you are American, were you worrying about whether the media was focusing equally on all the reasons why 9/11 might have happened including perceived injustice caused by the US (as seen through some middle eastern eyes)? Or were you consumed by your outrage at what happened to thousands of innocent people? I know what I was feeling that day, and it was undiluted outrage and sorrow, without thinking about what might have led to it. I understand that it is a weak analogy (number of deaths, no corresponding massacre by the US, etc.) but the point I was making is that both the ethnic cleanisng and the terrorist attacks are bad ... the families of the victims of both can debate which one was worse. One can feel bad about the fact that the terrorist attack has happened without being burdened by a "Hindu guilt" about the ethnic cleansing in Gujarat.
FWIW, I believe Narendra Modi, the Chief Minister of Gujarat, who many believe was complicit in the events in Gujarat, should have been charged with multiple crimes, but that doesn't stop me from feeling that your expectation that my outrage at this time should somehow be tempered is unreasonable.
Also, why the flip comments about Hinduism? I understand I might have pissed you off by calling you sanctimonious (which is my opinion of you, not your religion, gender, race, etc.), but I don't see that as a valid reason to abuse someone's religion. Your response was abusive.
December 1, 2008 2:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
I feel bad about all violence. I just don't think the Mumbai killings were any more horrendous than the massacres in Gujarat, which I will repeat, were not covered with the same compassion on CNN. If you suspect that I don't value innocent Hindu lives more than innocent Muslim lives, you're right: I don't.
December 1, 2008 3:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nor do I. Again, let me stress that my comment was on the timing of this thread in general, and your original comment in particular, not with the truth of your comment.
Weep for both sets of victims, but don't expect the ones whose wounds are fresh to feel very kindly towards you for somehow making them feel that until the wrongs on the other side have been redressed, their outrage (and the coverage of it) is not valid.
December 1, 2008 5:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's not really about weeping for both sides. It's about rejecting the violent paradigm that we are spoon fed every day. Basically, I belive Peter Ustinov when he said, "War is the terrorism of the strong." Or Brendan Behan: "The terrorist the the one with the little bomb."
We have so chloroformed ourselves to the reality of state-sponsored violence that when indivdual or group-sponsored violence rears its ugly head--like in Mumbai, we are supposed to suddenly bark like trained dogs with outrage. I was just as outraged when American bombs started landing on Baghdad....you know, in that Act of Enormous Violence which killed many more innoccent civilians than these Mumbai terrorists. But, then again, when we are killing innocent civilians, CNN goes into cheer-leading mode.
December 1, 2008 6:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Indeed, Peretz and the righteous furor that columns like that one stir up are deplorable.
November 30, 2008 12:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Does anyone remember when it was that Ariel Sharon, or one of his top representatives, made a special and well-publicized trip to India to secure a massive Israeli arms sale to that country? I wondered at the time, why sell Israeli arms to India,a confirmed foe of Muslim Pakistan. Why publicized. Now I wonder if the slaughter in Mumbai, or any relatively up-scale Indian enclave, by Muslims or their sympathizers was the intended reaction, and if so, why.
November 30, 2008 12:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed. If one is looking for immediate causes, in between their speculations of ties between Pakistan and the perpetrators it might be nice to see a story or two about the riots by Hindus in India that led to the killings of thousands of Muslims earlier in the decade.
November 30, 2008 1:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Those riots were referred to in one of the Times stories covering Mumbai.
November 30, 2008 1:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
So MELIOR, MJ and the rest of you, you find this atrocity "understandable?"
MJ, you are really something. This horrible thing happens, MUSLIMS ACTING IN THE NAME OF ISLAM MURDERING BOUND HOSTAGES IN COLD BLOOD and all you can think of doing is bashing your favorite targets. When self-proclaimed Muslim HAMAS fighters taking over the Gaza Strip took captured handcuffed FATAH fighters up to the top of a tall building and threw them off, and an appreciative crowd below danced with the body parts, all you guys can say is "its understandable". Well, since we live in a post-Modern age of moral relativism, then none of you are in any position to criticize Bush, Israel or any other of your favorite punching bags, because we can then argue what they are doing is "understandable", too. MJ, you and all those here who are foaming at the mouth agreeing with your despicable comments are all a bunch of disgusting hypocrites.
You think we are all going to forget about the bloody Muslim civil wars in Iraq, Algeria, Lebanon, the intranecine slaughter going on in Afghanistan, Somalia, 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, etc, etc? No we won't . The fact that all you can do in this situation is make infantile comments about "Martin Peretz wetting his pants"?. This shows what kind of moral universe you live in and it should be a sign of how much credibility you have. The next time you start bashing Israel, Republicans, Bush or anybody else, just tell yourself that you hold them to the same standards as the Muslim terrorists you have some sort of sympathy for, and say "what they are doing is UNDERSTANDABLE!". What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.
November 30, 2008 1:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I would not want to speak for MJ nor am I sure he would want me to either but MJ DID NOT say that the attacks were UNDERSTANDABLE. You are fabricating that.
I think what MJ and the rest of us are saying is that it is dishonest to use a bait-and-switch tactic here (as in other attacks) to demonize Muslims in general.
It is true that the attackers were Muslim extremist, but does it follow that all of Islam is extremist? No more than to say that the atrocities perpetrated by the Israeli Irgun at Deir Yassin Early in the morning of April 9, 1948 is indicative of Judaism being a violent religion.
It's the bait-and-switch tactics we find so offensive. In fact Menachem Begin (who was in charge of the attack ) went on to become Prime Minister and to be honored in Carter's Washington as a peacemaker.
I suppose there are elements in Israel and here in the United States who want to expand the "War on Terror" into a "War on Islamic Extremism" leaving it ambiguous as to whether Islam is itself called extremist or whether there are extremist elements in Islam that we must combat, as there are in all religions. It is a subtel tactic that allows people like you to claim that we are engaged in a war with Islam itself and for it to resonate with the careless among us--which are a sizable amount of people.
As for the Palestinians, they are about as secular as any Arab population is likely to be.
November 30, 2008 4:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, see, Andrew... in this mentality, anything other than outrage is interpreted as somehow excusing the crime. No reason to think deeper, nothing to see here!
November 30, 2008 4:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
You might also consider lots of capital letters. YBD thinks that using capitals makes him more authoritative.
November 30, 2008 5:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
indicative of Judaism being a violent religion.
Maybe not.(and perhaps O/T)
But the *glorification of ethnic cleansing that is the foundational myth of this particular Yahwist Cult does perhaps lead one to justify murder-as-religion.
Translated to the modern context, with a brief glance at the Thirty Years War while we pass through the centuries, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that Yahwists (of any stripe) are dangerous psychotics.
*vide. Books of Exodus, Joshua, etc.
November 30, 2008 7:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Andrew Strat:
--------------------------------------------
As for the Palestinians, they are about as secular as any Arab population is likely to be.
---------------------------------------------
Not relevant. Palestinian anti-Jewish propaganda is as religiously-based as the Saudis and anybody else's. This has been well-documented by Palestinian Media Watch and others. Benny Morris book about Israel's War of Independence "1948" points out that this is a myth regarding the period leading up to that War...that Palestinian anti-Jewish propaganda was loaded with religious jihad imagery, the "pefidiousness" of the Jews as reported in Muslim religious texts, etc. Then there was the infamous incident in 2001 or 2002 when "secular" Arafat was present in the mosque in Gaza and the preacher said that there was a "religious duty of all Muslims" to kill Jews. Arafat was confronted with this video by CBS Newsman Mike Wallace on the "60 Minutes" show. Arafat claimed "he wasn't listening".
Again and again we have people here who know nothing about Islam preaching to us that "Islam does not have any wide-spread anti-Jewish or anti-Christian teaching because to think such a thing goes against my PC view of how the world ought to be".
November 30, 2008 9:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
It would be astounding if Palestinians did not hate Jews given that the two are in mortal struggle over the future of the disputed territories.
Again, more bait and switch. Palestinians are Muslim/Palestinians hate Jews/ therefore The fact that Palestinians are Muslims explains why they hate Jews. Never mind that they are fighting for their very existence as a people against a formidable enemy that is armed to the teeth and willing to use that power to prevail, that is totally irrelevant right? The Palestinians (who are Muslims) hate the Jews because they are Jews and no other reason. It does not even pass the laugh test my friend.
December 1, 2008 12:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Perhaps I should have qualified that post by saying that they hate Israeli Jews and all those who support them, which would include non-Jews as well.
But the "outrage" that a people will hate their oppressors/enemies is really a yawn.
December 1, 2008 2:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, the Benny Morris who recently said that Israel should use nuclear weapons preemptively on Iran.
That is your source?
December 1, 2008 10:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Huh?
I searched the entire webpage for the word understandable, and yours is the first use. You put it in quotes. What were you trying to imply?
MJ said:
That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
November 30, 2008 7:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why is it so hard to differentiate between extremists and non-extremists? Why must fear be such a controlling factor?
-- Cris
My site: Obama Wallpaper Archive
November 30, 2008 1:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Juan Cole has a lot to say about this.
http://www.juancole.com/
November 30, 2008 1:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Marty Peretz saysm and I quote, "But I very much doubt that this was a deliberate act of the Pakistan government."
the fact that MJ can ignore this sentence and blithely say that the usual suspects can't wait to blame Pakistan should tell us something about MJ's reading comprehension scores.
it's funny how MJ would like to us never put the blame for horrific terror attacks at the Islamists' feet--but he's wetting his own pants wanting to blame Israel for trying to defend itself. double standard much?
if MJ and his hate-America-first fans want us to stop blaming Muslims for terrorism, maybe Muslims should stop terrorizing.
November 30, 2008 2:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Juan Cole obviously doesn't know anything about Saudi Arabia. The state-controlled education system and media have long demonized Jews and taught that "good Muslims should not socialize with Jews or Christians". Jews are not even allowed into the country. Saudi clerics have long praised suicide bombers in Israel who sought to maximize civilian casualties. Non-Muslims resident in the country are not allowed to have religious services in their own faith or to bring in religious articles like Bibles . 9/11 was a direct consequence of the official education and propaganda the regime put out. The fact that the extremists then turned on the regime is very common. Terrorists often turn on those who sponsored them . The same occurred in Pakistan. The regime, according to recent articles by Dexter Filkins in the New York Times, created the Taliban during the term of Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto to serve Pakistani interests, but they ended up turning on the regime and have instituted a reign of terror in Pakistan, including the assassination of their originial benefactor, Miss Bhutto!
I see an iron rule here, with the "progressives"-Muslims are to be considered a tiny pathetic, helpless minority who are to be given every consideration because they have supposedly suffered more than anyone in history, and so whom must have their flaws overlooked in the name of political correctness, while all those who are in conflict with them must be considered perpetually guilty and deserving of all the violence Muslims extremists direct at them (intra-Muslim violence is to be ignored).
November 30, 2008 2:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I forgot to mention that the Saudi regime itself finally admitted that their propaganda and education system was indeed preaching extremism and they promised to reform it (something I rather doubt has happened, but I really don't know). This is why they are taking baby steps towards paricipating in "dialogues" with other religions (not including, Israeli Jews, of course).
November 30, 2008 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
A people without a land for a land without a people.
Now that is the ultimate slogan of ethnic hatred.
December 1, 2008 11:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
So MJ's failure to accuse without evidence is a cause of terrorism? Thanks. I didn't know that.
November 30, 2008 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is beginning to appear that the assailants came from Pakistan and that they were trained by the terrorist Kashmiri group that is there and, did in the past, have ties to the ISI.
If so, this would be an extension of that war. This represents a cycle of violence between Moslems and Hindus that has no good side (except perhaps those Kashmiri Moslems that have attempted a non violent civil rights movement and have been targeted by the terrorists on both sides and a very few Hindu leaders that have searched for peaceful solutions).
It is not in the interests of the US to take sides here. Yes deplore the terrorism but recognize that the US is powerless to resolve that conflict. MJ is right to warn that the Israeli and neocon right will try to play on the emotional reaction to this horror to build on their anti Moslem alliance. We must resist that impulse.
November 30, 2008 3:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here we go again. Now I'm supposed to believe that the severity of the Mumbai attacks is new evidence of Muslim extremism or Al-Qaeda capabilities or the "real threat of terrorism."
This is, of course, BS. It has long been true, and we all know, that if you get a bunch of people and guns together, you can wreak havoc. Doesn't matter if you're a Somali pirate or a Prohibition era mobster or a South American guerilla fighter or Al-Qaeda or a militia survivalist type -- people can buy weapons and use those weapons to kill, scare and influence other people.
Nothing's changed and nothing's putting me into a 9/12 mindset.
November 30, 2008 4:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tell me Destor23, if people in your neighborhood went around disributing weapons to everyone, would you and your neighbors go around and start killing each other?
November 30, 2008 10:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Who knows? Not even sure what your question has to do with anything.
December 1, 2008 6:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
I take your point, destor23. In 2005, the US provided nearly half, $8.1 billion worth, the weapons sold to militaries in the developing world - many already engaged in conflict.
A major staple of the American weapons industry, we are introducing many of the weapons even though they risk fueling conflicts already in progress. (Nevermind that some of the same weapons eventually come back to bite us in our own ass, got to keep the dollars flooding our weapons industries - and eventually political coffers.
December 1, 2008 11:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
So let's get this straight....the attack in India, carried out by Muslims, is, according to MJ and others, NOT (note the capital letters) due to any organized or semi-organized international extremist Islamic movement with a coherent ideology that is anti-Jewish and anti-Western. It was due to "local" conditions....the struggle in Kashmir and supposed "discrimination" suffered by Indian Muslims. The fact that a Jewish institution was specifically targetted and the Jews trapped there murdered in cold blood while being tied up, is NOT (again, the capital letters) any indication of a specific hatred of Jews, they simply "got in the way", by coincidence. Add to this the fact that the terrorists searched out Britons and Americans.
We hear from some here, on the other hand, that the fact that Jews were specifically targetted is actually due to these "local conditions" (but, again, not, perish the thought, that Muslim extremists have anything against Jews per se)...that Israel has developed trade and military relations with India. However, this has only been in recent years. Let's look at Indian history....who was India's main ally for many decades and their main arms supplier when they were fighting wars with Pakistan and absorbing Kashmir? Who was it? Was it the US? NO (again, capital letters....call a cop!) India's relations were poor with the US through most of its history. The US's main ally in the region was.......(guess who?)....PAKISTAN! Who was India's ally who armed them agaist Pakistan and to control Kashmir.......(drum roll)... RUSSIA/USSR! So as a result of these "local conditions" who would have been the logical target for terrorists? Russians! Did they go after Russians? No, they went after Jews, Americans and Britons. (Yes, I know the large majority of victims were actually Indians..I am referring to the foreigners they went after).
November 30, 2008 11:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
There were Muslims who were killed in this assault and Muslims who helped the victims-of whatever religion .I heard one being interviewed on the BBC.
As with every other group there are wonderful Muslims and ones who are a disgrace to their religion.
You may have had particular experiences which make it hard for you to accept that. But you should try. You would present your position more convincingly . And in any event that's how we should all behave towards one another. Which you probably believe yourself when you are not caught up in behaving like the Prophet armed.
You're not among enemies. You're among people who could easily sympathize with some of your views if you lowered your voice and were more considerate .Try it.
December 1, 2008 5:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Flavius said:
-------------------------------------------
There were Muslims who were killed in this assault and Muslims who helped the victims-of whatever religion .I heard one being interviewed on the BBC.
As with every other group there are wonderful Muslims and ones who are a disgrace to their religion.
--------------------------------------------
I couldn't agree more. I am sure Muslims were killed in the 9/11 attacks as well. There certainly were Muslims killed in the big wave of suicide bombings here in Israel. But that is not the point. The question as to the effect of Islam on the wave of terrorism emanating from the Muslim world must be evaluated as follows:
(1) First off, what do the basic Muslim sources say about relations with Jews and other non-Muslims (i.e. the Qur'an, the Hadith, the Sunna, etc)?
(2) How have these been interpreted by Muslim scholars throughout the ages, and how have the average believers understood them, i.e. as the scholars taught, or on a more simplistic, literalist level?
(3) How does the average, modern Muslim understand them? Is the same as it was hundreds of years ago, or has it changed?
This leads to the main question: How do both Muslim scholars and average Muslims relate to Jews, other non-Muslims and the wave of Islamic terror we see today. Do they condemn the terror? Do the applaud the terror? Do they say "I wouldn't do it myself, but I think those who do it are good people"? Or do they say "The people doing these things are well-intentioned people, but they are going too far". If they agree with this last thing is it because (1) it is immoral to seek out innocent civilians to kill them? or (2) is it bad because it simply
gives Islam a bad reputation?
I emphasize the historical aspects because, as I understand it, Islamic law opposed opposed specifically targeting civilians in war, although collateral damage was accepted. That is to say, Muslim scholars at that time would have opposed suicide bombings targetting civilians. Today, top Islamic scholars in Egypt and Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries specifically praise such operations. So can people claim that what is done today "is not really Islam"?
December 1, 2008 8:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
...continuing my thoughts..
So how does the Muslim world react to the violence emanating from supposedly believing Muslims? Well, we know that in many Muslim countries there were public celebrations in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. How widespread were they, I don't know, but there was media coverage. Another example....a Sunni suicide bomber from Jordan killed something like 50 Shi'ites in Iraq. There was a big public celebration in his home town. Reporters asked how they could be happy about a slaughter like that. One replied "they were Shi'ites". Then the Jordanian police broke it up because it was an embarrassment to the state.
Michael Slackman in the New York Times reported from Egypt that many if not most Egyptians blame their problems on Jews. "Jews" not "Israelis". So we can conclude that the negative view of Jews in the basic Islamic sources certainly place at least some effect on how Muslims view Jews. We know that there is widespread influence of Egyptian Brotherhood Muslim extremist thinker Sayid Qutb (known as the theologian of Al-Qaida) in the Muslim world. He stated that the Jews have been constantly conspiring against the Muslim world and the Muslim world's problems are a consequence of this (he says this in his commentary to the Qur'an on the Sura "Al-Baqqara"-"The Cow"). How many people take him seriously? I don't know, but we do know that even in a bastion of toleration like Britain, there are many fire-breathing radical Muslim preachers teaching this. There is also a well-known belief in Islam that the world will eventually be ruled by an Islamic state (the "Caliphate"). How many Muslims today are actively working towards this goal? We know in Iran that its President is advocating a Shi'ite version of this. He says it quite openly. So this is not just some "fringe belief".
The fact is is that there is an international network of radical Islamic groups that preach a genocidal form Judeophobia. They are in Europe and the Middle East and even in South America. These extreme groups often receive state support from countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia. Pakistan's support for the Taliban is well-documented. The irony is, of course, is that the large majority of victims of these groups are Muslims. This, in the end, is what will eventually turn the majority of the Muslim world against them. This has even started in Iraq (the "Sunni Awakening"). But if the average Muslim around the world has at least sympathy, if not outright suppport for these groups and their ideology (and I believe that is the case) then a long, bloody struggle is in the cards.
To simply dismiss these things like MJ does, is simply hiding one's head in the sand. There is radical, violent Islam, it has widespread support, its ideology is at least partly based on traditional Islamic teachings and it is dangerous. Just as the Christian world finally got disgusted with religious wars after the 30-Year's War and they gave up trying to have Christianity , as a religion, control the world, the Muslims will have to go through the same process, 400 years later.
December 1, 2008 10:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for making your points in a way that at least leaves the door open for those who disagree can respond reasonably. I'm not going to try to do that myself because there are lots of others who are better qualified so I'll get out of the way.
I look forward to reading your comments in the future.
December 1, 2008 11:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
We don't know if the Chabad house was specifically targeted. We do know that Jihad Inc. is viciously anti-Jewish so, if they came upon Chabad by accident, the terrorists had to be delighted.
I make no apologies for terrorists, ever. That is why I have no problem condemning Hamas, Hezbollah, AQ and the radical settlers of Hebron and the outposts. Religion-based hate is the scourge of the world. I can't imagine a situation where killing kids is acceptable (even at Hiroshima and Dresden, let alone buses in Jerusalem or in Beirut or Gaza). When it comes to killing kids or parents trying to protect them, one standard fits all.
December 1, 2008 11:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
Of course they targetted the Habad House. You know that. They knew exactly what they were doing, the attacks were planned long in advance. These loosely-linked international Muslim extremist groups "hitchhike" on the local grievances (i.e Kashmir in India, the US presence in Iraq, US support for Israel, French influence in Algeria and Morocco) to ensure local support for their atrocities. But you will notice that all these attacks, including the Al-Qaida attacks in East Africa in the 1990's, the attack on the USS Cole, 9/11, 7/7, Mumbai, Madrid, etc, are never accompanyed by demands or official claims of responsibility. The idea is for the world to come to fear Muslims and to capitulate to the ultimate political goals of these groups...the conquest of the world by political Islam, i.e. the Caliphate..Again, I do not know how many Muslims really view this as a practical goal, but enough are believing in it to wreak death and destruction on a large scale.
Wikipedia article on Qutb....note what is stated about the Jews:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb
Here is a lengthy article about Qutb and his philosophy:
http://members.cox.net/slsturgi3/PhilosopherOfIslamicTerror.htm
December 1, 2008 12:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think suggesting that Jews were not targeted in the Mumbai attack borders on criminal naiveté. Eight of the 22 known foreign victims are Jewish, and bodies recovered from Habad House show clear signs of torture.
This does not diminish the atrocities committed against other foreigners and the Indian victims; nor do I mean to lay the blame at the feet of a theology. But it is absurd to believe Jews were not a target in this attack. As for whether the motives were political or religious, I think we need to check our western baggage at the door and understand that in other parts of the world there is no clean disctinction between the two.
December 2, 2008 7:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know the geography of Mumbai (at all), but I would think it would take some advance planning to find the Chabad House in ANY city. What, do they have a big neon Magen David outside their storefront? ('Course, knowing them somewhat, they probably do!) So, the idea that they might have just stumbled onto the Chabad House doesn't seem likely. Possible, but not likely.
December 2, 2008 5:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sadly, you are wasting your breathe. It is an uncommon vitue to support common humanity.
December 1, 2008 1:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
A few quick thoughts on this:
1. Islam is the world's second largest religion. About one in five people are Muslims, roughly 1.5 billion people or about 20% of all human beings alive today. If Islam were inherently violent, we'd see much more Islamic violence than we do today simply because there are so many Muslims.
2. Most Islamic populations are concentrated in a band from North Africa through the Middle East and into South Asia. Most of the areas Muslims live in were recent (mostly British) colonies. They remain in political turmoil as a result of the aftermath of colonialism. Much of the violence we see in the Muslim world is political violence wrapped in a veneer of Islamism.
3. Compared with sub-Saharan Africa--the other large region where European colonisation ended relatively recently--the Muslim world is actually far less violent. Africa has been racked with wars (the current war in the Congo is the most violent conflict of the past decade), ethnic conflicts, and even large-scale genocides.
4. The Muslim world borders Europe and remains important both strategically and economically to the West. This means there is far more interaction between the Muslim world and the West than there is between Africa and the West. This tends to result in comparatively more conflict and tension between the Muslim world and the West as well.
5. Islam and the Islamic world have a proud history. Revolutionary and liberation movements in the Muslim world (especially in the Arab and Persian Muslim world) can look to an idealized past as a model for the present. Islamic militancy develops from this backward looking romanticism and provides a useful ideology to motivate Muslims who are unhappy with their present to join revolutionary or anti-Western movements. Islamism is a powerful veneer in which to wrap political resistance. It's success in Iran (against the US-backed Shah) and Afganistan (against the Russians) has increased its appeal.
6. The political and economic instability of the Islamic world (in part the result of the weak, artificial states left behind by the colonialists and continued Western intervention) creates an abundant source of discontent to fuel revolutionary and liberation movements--or to simply stimulate violence among disenfranchised groups or bored youths.
7. The creation of a Jewish state within the Muslim world with the backing of the US and Britain has increased tension between Muslims and Britain, the US, and Jews considerably. Muslims view the removal and disenfranchisement of the Palestinians as ethnic cleansing, a grave injustice, and an insult that sends a message that the West believes Jews are more worthy than Muslims. This motivates more Muslim violence against English-speaking Westerners and Jews. At the same time, pro-Israeli groups and pundits in the West have a motive for demonizing Muslim resistance movements like those of the Palestinians and exaggerating their threat to all Westerners. This results in powerful anti-Muslim propoganda in the US combined with a general lack of promotion of Muslim perspectives.
December 1, 2008 10:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
"This motivates more Muslim violence against English-speaking Westerners and Jews. At the same time, pro-Israeli groups and pundits in the West have a motive for demonizing Muslim resistance movements like those of the Palestinians and exaggerating their threat to all Westerners. This results in powerful anti-Muslim propoganda in the US combined with a general lack of promotion of Muslim perspectives."
How's about the exaggeration of the threat Israel poses to the Muslim world...and the exaggeration of the insult and the grave injustice? Muslims may see it that way, but Israel is a fraction of a postage stamp compared to the size of "the Muslim world." And who says that every scrap of land from the Atlantic to the Indian Ocean is ordained "Muslim land" to begin with? Good brief.
December 1, 2008 1:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I dont' know. Plenty of people where I live claim that Arabs on squatting on land given the Jews by God.
In reality, the Jew are squatting on land given to the Canaanites by Baal.
Yes, these religious claims are silly.
December 1, 2008 3:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Muslims murder unarmed Jewish civilians, and you respond by condemning Martin Peretz?
Pathological Jew hatred is a mental illness, Mister Rosenberg. Please seek help.
December 1, 2008 2:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
May I remind you who killed Rabin? It wasn't a liberal "self-hating Jew."
December 1, 2008 3:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, here's a reasonably good piece of news from Jenin that involves Jim Jones...
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/12/world/middleeast/12jenin.html?_r=1&ref=world&pagewanted=all
December 1, 2008 4:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is good news. Note that when the IDF is not involved, America is, and the Europeans help (Blair) good things can happen. The illusion is that the IDF is a force for good in the Palestinian territories. It never was. And it never will be.
BTW, take the land-aquatting Brooklynites with the last IDF-er when they pull out.
December 1, 2008 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I'm not sure the IDF is not involved in anything that happens in Israel, actively or passively. I'm not sure, either, that it's argued that the IDF is there as a force "for good."
As to the Brooklynites...
The Brooklynites feel a stake in Israel for the same reason that Muslims from the Atlantic Ocean to Indonesia feel a stake in Palestine. Regardless of the theological validity of any of the claims, one cannot say (reasonably) that it's okay, fine, understandable for Algerians and Saudis and Pakistanis to feel a stake in Palestine--a stake that "motivates more Muslim violence against English-speaking Westerners and Jews"--and not say it's okay, fine, and understandable for Jews in Brooklyn to feel a stake in Israel. Doesn't wash.
December 1, 2008 10:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tintin, you are comparing apples to oranges.
This statement is undoubtedly correct: "The Brooklynites feel a stake in Israel for the same reason that Muslims from the Atlantic Ocean to Indonesia feel a stake in Palestine."
The next statement then goes off the rails: "Regardless of the theological validity of any of the claims, one cannot say (reasonably) that it's okay, fine, understandable for Algerians and Saudis and Pakistanis to feel a stake in Palestine--a stake that "motivates more Muslim violence against English-speaking Westerners and Jews"--and not say it's okay, fine, and understandable for Jews in Brooklyn to feel a stake in Israel. Doesn't wash."
I have never advocated the attachment of Algerians to Palestine. I apply a very simple, general human rule: If you are born in a land, you have a right to live there. No magic. The obvious corollary of that rule is that millions of Israelis have been born in the State of Israel since 1948. And they have a right to live there. Similar corollary: Palestinians born there have a right to leave there. No exceptions.
But some dude from Brooklyn who graduates his Lubavitcher school and thinks he can move to the West Bank and harass Palestinians, no, I don't recognize any legitimacy to he "claims" at all.
December 2, 2008 10:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Okay, I see your point. I was actually responding to Purple, but got confused because you responded to my response to Purple.
This is his quote and it's telling and shows why these discussions often off the rails:
"The creation of a Jewish state within the Muslim world with the backing of the US and Britain has increased tension between Muslims and Britain, the US, and Jews considerably. Muslims view the removal and disenfranchisement of the Palestinians as ethnic cleansing, a grave injustice, and an insult that sends a message that the West believes Jews are more worthy than Muslims. This motivates more Muslim violence against English-speaking Westerners and Jews."
So here, Purple is not talking about the West Bank and Gaza. He's talking about the creation of a Jewish state "within the Muslim." (A new unit of sovereignty, I guess.) And he sees this as a motivation for things like Mumbai or Goldenberg Deli or the attack on the JCC on Buenos Aires, etc. IOW as a reason for Muslims everywhere to rise up against Jews everywhere. And 9/11 is often cited as an act of payback for the U.S. support of Israel. The argument has migrated to the conflict in the West Bank and Gaza and the terrible things going on there, but 9/11, under this interpretation, is not about the West Bank and Gaza; it's about Israel per se.
So I understand you weren't making this argument; Purple was. Now, truth is, I suspect Purple isn't advocating this violence. But it's also true in these discussions that there is a thin line between analysis, understanding, and prescription. As in: "Of course, Muslims everywhere are killing Jews everywhere--there's this Jewish state within 'the Muslim world'." As in: "Wouldn't YOU do it too if you were in their shoes?"
I like your rule about having a right to live in the place where you were born. I guess I wish more people had respected that right with regard to the Jews.
December 2, 2008 12:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
All we can do is advocate general rules of human decency in our own time. We can't change the past.
As one of my Jewish friends told me (in reference to my Palestinian wife): "We can't go back to the Bible and the Palestinians can't go back to 1948."
That is a sentiment that I share.
December 2, 2008 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think if the two sides could hold that thought and keep it in mind, a solution to the conflict would come reasonably easily.
It's not the details, IMO, it's the will to have peace that is the missing piece.
December 2, 2008 5:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Note the presence of the IDF from the article:
"From that rubble, now newly trained and equipped Palestinian security officials have restored order. Israeli soldiers have pulled back from bases and are in close touch with their Palestinian colleagues. Civilians are planning economic cooperation — an industrial zone to provide thousands of jobs, mostly to Palestinians, and another involving organic produce grown by Palestinians and marketed in Europe by Israelis. Ministers from both governments have been visiting regularly, often joined by top international officials. Israeli Arabs are playing a key role."
December 3, 2008 8:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
We don't know for sure if the Jewish center was chosen, but it seems like too much of a coincidence to me.
Here's a good analysis from the WSJ. Couldn't have said it better myself
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122816892289570229.html
December 1, 2008 8:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's part of the continuum of disruption that emerged with the creation of Pakistan, which in turn led to the creation of Bangladesh.
Imagine the disputes that would occur if the U.S. were divided by general political boundaries, e.g.
It doesn't help things in South Asia for the U.S. to be inextricably involved in the politics there. The advantages of the tried and true stratagem of divide and conquer used so often by interlopers has apparently not been lost on the Americans.
December 2, 2008 4:22 PM | Reply | Permalink