Rahm Emanuel Is No Likudnik
Before the netroots starts attacking Emanuel as an AIPAC stooge, Likudnik, or whatever, let me weigh in.
It's not true. His father is an Israeli and was active in the Irgun, the terrorist group founded by Menachem Begin which famously bombed Jerusalem's King David Hotel.
I don't know what the old man's politics on Israel are today (not all Irgunists were rightwingers). I suspect that, if he was still a rightwinger, he would not have produced a bunch of liberal kids. (Rahm's brother, the Jeremy Piven one, writes often on HuffPo and is a total Hollywood liberal).
Anyway, what I know about Emanuel on Israel is that he was a key player in getting President Clinton to embrace Oslo and to hold the Rabin-Arafat signing ceremony. I remember standing on the lawn and watching George Stephanopoulos and Rahm Emanuel all teary over "the handshake."
As a Member of Congress, Emanuel was not all that hawkish either. He supports Israel (so do I) but he definitely supports the peace process too. My guess: he'll be the one encouraging Obama to go for an Israeli-Palestinian deal the first year. And, when the rightwing Jews complain, he'll tell them to stick it up their ass.
And they will.












Uh, my problem with him is welfare reform. He was one of the prime movers in punishing poor women and their children. An awful choice, but I expected to be disappointed promptly.
November 6, 2008 2:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Making a remark like that at this point in the state of things says a great deal more about you than it does about Barack Obama or Rahm Emanuel. That's kind of like going to a football game and saying you were expecting to be sad about the outcome when all you've seen is the Star Spangled Banner and the coin toss. (I'm a former Detroit Lions season ticket holder, so in a sense, I may be able to relate to this analogy better than most.) Rahm Emanuel's work on welfare reform, to the best of my knowledge, has not yet impacted his work as President-Elect Obama's future Chief of Staff. But you've already decided to grade the choice based upon your own impression of something for which you undoubtedly have limited insight. And as is so typical, you didn't follow up on your negative remarks by offering anything in the way of "I would have liked to have seen _________ serve the Obama Administration in this capacity." It is one thing to be a back seat driver; it is quite another to sit and shout "Don't turn. Ever. Just drive to where I want you to go..."
November 6, 2008 2:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
I also grade the choice based on Emanuel's position on the board of Freddie Mac. We're on the hook to the tune of trillions for the scandal at that organiazation, and the CEO's were forced to resign. That is the extent of the accountability in Washington over the most monumental mortgage crisis in history. Emanuel gets kicked upstairs to the White House. Nothing has changed.
November 7, 2008 10:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, somebody swallowed the GOP talking points on Fannie and Freddie hook, line, and sinker!
What on earth does that have to do with his ability to be effective as Chief of Staff? Listen, I hate to break it to you, but this is the big leagues. If we're voting people off the island based upon their service on Boards of organizations from which CEOs have been forced to resign, Washington will be entirely populated by people who have never served on a Board of Directors. I'm having trouble getting inaugural tickets, so if we're going to make the rules that stringent, let's roll! I just hope I'm not being penalized for taking minutes and arranging the catering.
November 7, 2008 12:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
you missed the point -- that being that Congress got a complete pass over the Freddie/Fannie issue. These orgs, after all, had Congressional oversight, did they not? It doesn't matter, becase sitting members of Congress are rarely accountable to voters anymore. The same crew that created the problem are the ones yelling about Wall Street excesses.
November 8, 2008 10:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ondioline's "reply" to Brook Dataski is a little paradigm for Obama's stooges on the blogs.
"Wow, somebody swallowed the GOP talking points on Fannie and Freddie hook, line, and sinker!"
Nothing in Brook Dataski's comment echoes any "GOP talking points," but it doesn't really matter.
Obamabots don't engage in discussion. They simply flood the threads with meaningless noise, and feeble attempts at "guilt by association"... You sound like the GOP!
"Guilt by association" was supposed to be a very bad thing when Obama was "associated" with Bill Ayers and Jeremiah Wright, but when Obamabots want to exploit the same tactic to discredit anyone who dares to criticize their con-man Messiah, then "guilt by association" becomes a very good thing instead.
November 8, 2008 2:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, piss off, you little shit, and do your trolling elsewhere. You lost. Get used to it. Because you are going to keep losing for a long, long time.
"Con man Messiah"? THAT is a right-wing talking point. No one thinks Obama is the Second Coming. He only looks that way compared to the pusillanimous little turd that you people put in the White House in 2000 and 2004.
Really, just go away. No one is buying the crap you are selling.
November 9, 2008 4:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
"He supports Israel (so do I) but he definitely supports the peace process too."
One of my hopes for change as we move forward is that we can change our way of thinking about foreign policy. In other words, I want to get rid of the "but" that we so often use in sentences like the one above. I'm encouraged by the recent formation of J Street, for example, that people's public pronouncements about Israel can begin to embrace the very real, very fundamental notion that being pro-ANYTHING should inherently mean wanting to see that ANYTHING exist in conditions which allow it to thrive and grow and face challenges other than day-to-day survival and existence. I don't understand how it has been allowed to stand for so long that supporting Israel means anything less than supporting A (rather than THE) peace process, even if that inherently entails wanting to see more from one side or the other, i.e. more peace AND more process.
I am not naive about how passionately people grapple on either side of the divides that exist in our politics. I am optimistic that there are people on the other side of that divide who can view this election in a new and open way. One of the things I remember most clearly about the aftermath of 2000, was the number of Dubya-related conversations that I participated in which ended with "but I hope I'm wrong". I hope folks on the right who have been so relentless in smearing and demeaning Barack Obama will, at the very least, adopt that same attitude. The contest has been decided. The future remains open and unclear, ready to be shaped by those who would do good or harm. Let's hope that we can all come to a more enlightened understanding about what role our beliefs and our actions play in shaping that future.
November 6, 2008 2:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good points.
November 6, 2008 3:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Good points."
One stooge for Obama applauds another.
"One of my hopes for change as we move forward is that we can change our way of thinking about foreign policy," says ondioline, and all over the internet, stooges for Obama are deploying the same jolly blather.
"I am not naive about how passionately people grapple on either side of the divides that exist in our politics," says ondioline, and this meaningless noise could be a quote from any of a hundred bullshit speeches that Obama read off a teleprompter.
"Good points," says M.J. Rosenberg, "and speaking as a stooge for Obama, let me congratulate another stooge for Obama for his or her meaningless stoogery!"
November 8, 2008 12:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jacob Freeze, you need to get into an anger management program. I'm afraid you're not going to avoid having a heart attack if Obama stooges cause such internal fury. Obama won by a majority, a big majority. You've got four years more of this, probably eight, if this country turns around. We have to right the ship. The Republicans have failed. Do you have any actual ideas or only obscenities and name calling?
November 9, 2008 2:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks a lot for this, MJ. (I've posted it on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/7bt06/just_in_case_you_were_wondering_rahm_emanuel_is/). I'm still worried about his aggressive style, but A Missouri Voter has made some good points about that issue too: http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/11/rahm_emanuel_accepts_gig_as_ob.php#comment-3277690 .
And Chief of Staff isn't a policy-making position anyway. I guess that, knowing Emanuel's reputation for knocking heads together, the announcement of Emanuel just seemed to offer a moment of dissonance somehow, given Obama's own style. But maybe that's just the kind of person needed in a CoS position. And as A Missouri Voter pointed out, Obama has shown himself quite capable of analyzing any advice given to him, so my concern was probably unnecessary.
November 6, 2008 2:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
The country needs someone in Chief of Staff position who is (1) smart (2)a relentless and effective multi-tasker (3) knows the ropes to get things done on the Hill (4) loyal to the president.
An added benefit is that asshole Bonehead (R-Mo) doesn't like Emanuel, that is a plus in my book. McCain, Bonehead and the Republicans will start their 'country-last' attacks on Obama and his agenda on Jan. 21, 2009.
November 6, 2008 2:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Boehner has already issued a negative statement, that already is not going over well (according to comments I heard this morning on MSNBC):
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/11/emanuel_accepts.html
The WaPo article goes on to say that Emanuel's reputation as overly partisan is partly myth.
(Sorry for the formatting - I'll never learn HTML.)
November 6, 2008 2:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Noble,
John Boehner, reaching across the aisle to "get things done."
November 6, 2008 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
I apologize for my spell check changing 'Boehner' to 'Bonehead', and for the fact he is from Ohio not Missouri. To be Blunt, I mixed him up with another guy.
Democrats should not be dismissive or hurt the feelings or injure the dignity of members of the opposing party even though they got their butts kicked in the election, and even though many of them called Democrats terrorist loving baby killing socialist atheists who hate America. You expect that kinda stuff from Republicans, but they can't take it, even a most tiny bit of it.
November 6, 2008 6:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bohner thinks he is the center ... of the universe.
November 9, 2008 2:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
The country needs someone in Chief of Staff position who is (1) smart (2)a relentless and effective multi-tasker (3) knows the ropes to get things done on the Hill (4) loyal to the president.
An added benefit is that asshole Bonehead (R-Mo) doesn't like Emanuel, that is a plus in my book. McCain, Bonehead and the Republicans will start their 'country-last' attacks on Obama and his agenda on Jan. 21, 2009.
November 6, 2008 2:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Didn't he serve in Tsahal?
November 6, 2008 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well said.
November 6, 2008 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, the "well-said" was misplaced.
November 6, 2008 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
No it wasn't. Seaton is correct.
Care to point out where someone, anyone, has called Rahm and AIPAC stooge or a Likudnik?
As if those are the only choices? The proof is in how he executes his gatekeeper duties.
It's all about the access.
He has behaved like a diva during this CoS episode.
November 6, 2008 6:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I haven't seen anyone here at TPM call Emanuel any of those terms, but I've seen it, or the rough equivalent, on other sites.
I remain somewhat uneasy about the pick too; I guess it all depends on whether Emanuel can suppress his own ambitions and instincts in service of Obama's. But I also suppose if he cannot, he'll soon be gone, since Obama seems pretty focused and determined. I doubt that he'll provide any room for a diva in his administration.
November 6, 2008 8:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wordie.
No doubt youv'e seen the terms in question around and about. They're just a bit more narrowly focused than "neocon".
OTOH, the only places I've seen people call Rahm the rough equivalent of a "Zionist Thug" (so far) are on sites like Mondoweiss and Tikkun Olam. ;>}
The extended leaking of this CoS saga and Rahmbo's demure diva act have at least served the purpose to alert those who will be monitoring his MO around the office.
Silver linings.....
I don't care much about Emanuel's political ambitions. He's well set financially so that motivation is not a factor. It's his power thang that gets my back up.
....not to mention the endorsement from his Dad in Ma'ariv via JPost as quoted by commenter "dspadrino" on this thread.
! lol.
November 6, 2008 10:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
He's been called an AIPAC stooge and Zionist thug or similar on Think Progress - a middle of the road site pretty much.
And as a Zionist thug I know one when I see one, and he isn't one. Mind you, these days, Zionist or not I'm quite pro-Palestinian.
November 10, 2008 8:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Care to point out where someone, anyone, has called Rahm and AIPAC stooge or a Likudnik?"
Brasscheck TV, for whom I have always had great respect, is pushing the issue. I agree, as usual, with MJ here, Rahm's no Zionist stooge, but he is Jewish, which inherently associates him with Israel. Instead of judging Emmanuel by the extremists he rubs elbows with, we should judge him by his moderating influence on those very extremists.
And Peace is not just a word. It is an aspiration we should all participate in.
The only beneficiaries of war anymore are the Daddy and Mommy Warbucks among us, and throughout the world, those privileged wealthy whose fortunes depend on the world war machine. They have done quite well by the Bush cabal.
November 7, 2008 10:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Boehner and his ilk have just begun. We can expect a daily tirade of fault-finding, scurrilous attacks on everything and anything the Democrats say or do. We'll weather them by basically ignoring them.
November 6, 2008 3:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not that interested in the details of Emanuel's personal politics. I was just worried that he is too much of a partisan and vindictive hard-ass to run a White House the way Obama wants it to be run. That's his reputation at least. But Obama has known him for a long time, and I assume he is comfortable with the man.
November 6, 2008 3:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
phelicity,
truly, and these are the cretins Obama is supposed to reach out to.
November 6, 2008 6:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh goody, an Israeli citizen who championed NAFTA, got progressives out of congressional races and served with the Israeli Army during the first yellow ribbon war will be the Messiah's chief of staff.
Change you can believe in, but in the wrong direction, unfortunately.
November 6, 2008 3:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don, as I understand it, those are charges (Israeli citizen, served in Israel's Army) that were made by an opponent of Emanuel's in the 2002 primary race. He was born in Chicago, and although he does apparently hold dual-citizenship, it was something he received automatically because his father was a citizen of Israel. He did volunteer for Israel in the first Gulf War, but it was in a civilian, not military, capacity.
I've had friends who hold dual-citizenship; it's not uncommon, nor necessarily a cause for concern. I'm a little worried myself that he'll turn out to be another Ross, but I can see why Obama might want someone like him in the role of Chief of Staff. It might be helpful to remember that the position isn't a policy position; it's not like Obama appointed him as a Mideast negotiator as Ross was.
November 6, 2008 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wordie,
True to your moniker you obtusely agree with me, in so many words.
November 6, 2008 11:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Was his father a terrorist? Did he have anything to do with the bombing of the King David Hotel?
November 6, 2008 4:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Was his father a terrorist? Did he have anything to do with the bombing of the King David Hotel?
November 6, 2008 4:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, he wasn't. He was a physician and an office guy.
November 6, 2008 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
What do you mean by an office guy? The Irgun office? Was he involved in the Deir Yassin massacre? We are trying bin Laden's driver for war crimes. This sounds like a double standard!
November 6, 2008 6:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
FROM WIKIPEDIA:
In the West, Irgun was described as a terrorist organization by The New York Times newspaper,[3][4] and by the Anglo-American Committee of Enquiry.[5] Irgun attacks prompted a formal declaration from the World Zionist Congress in 1946, which strongly condemned "the shedding of innocent blood as a means of political warfare".[6]
November 6, 2008 6:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
M.J.(a person I greatly respect) POSTED ABOVE:
His father is an Israeli and was active in the Irgun, Menachem Begin's "boys."
MJ: Are these "boys" you refer to Irgun terrorists. Begin was an Irgun terrorist. I believe he participated in the terrorist bombing of The King David Hotel in which 91 innocent (mostly British) people were killed.
November 6, 2008 6:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good point. I'll change the post.
November 6, 2008 7:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Over the past couple of days I have made several posts supporting Rham as Obama's Chief of Staff. I had no idea his father had been a member of the Irgun.
FROM WIKIPEDIA:
Some of the better-known attacks by Irgun were the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre (accomplished together with the Stern Gang) on 9 April 1948.
MY ADDITION: The Deir Yassin massacre was the slaughter of all of the inhabitants of the Palestinian village of Deir Yassin by Jewish terrorists. If I recall correctly, more than 300 innocent Palestinian men, women and children were killed.
November 6, 2008 8:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are right. Deir Yassin was a joint slaughter committed by the right-wing Irgun amd LEHI (the Stern Gang). I think 254 Palestinians were slaughtered. It was a horrific crime.
The Deir Yassin massacre was condemned by the official Zionist army (Hagana) and the divisions between the right and left on this issue still exist.
November 6, 2008 9:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
I stand corrected!
Deir Yassin massacre
From Wikipedia,
The neutrality of this article is disputed.
The Deir Yassin massacre was the killing of between 107 and 120 villagers,[1] the estimate generally accepted by scholars,[2][3] during and possibly after the battle[4][5] at the village of Deir Yassin (also written as Dayr Yasin or Dir Yassin) near Jerusalem in the British Mandate of Palestine by Jewish irregular forces between April 9 and April 11, 1948. It occurred while Jewish Yishuv forces fought to break the siege of Jerusalem during the period of civil war that preceded the end of the Mandate.
Contemporary reports, originating apparently from a commanding officer in Jerusalem of one of the irregular forces involved (the Irgun), Mordechai Ra'anan[6], gave an initial estimate of 254 killed.[7] The size of the figure had a considerable impact on the conflict in creating panic and became a major cause of the 1948 Palestinian exodus.[7][8]
SOURCE- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre
November 6, 2008 9:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
MORE ON THE IRGUN
From the 'The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict' PUBLISHED BY JEWS FOR JUSTICE IN THE MIDDLE EAST:
Shamir proposes an alliance with the Nazis
“As late as 1941, the Zionist group LEHI, one of whose leaders, Yitzhak Shamir, was later to become a prime minister of Israel, approached the Nazis, using the name of its parent organization, the Irgun (NMO)…[Their proposal stated:] ‘The establishment of the historical Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis and bound by a treaty with the German Reich would be in
the interests of strengthening the future German nation of power in the Near East… The NMO in Palestine offers to take an active part in the war on Germany’s side’….The Nazis rejected this proposal for an alliance because, it is reported, they considered LEHI’s
militarypower ‘negligable.’ ”
SOURCE- http://www.cactus48.com/TheOrigin.pdf
November 6, 2008 11:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Due respect, does any of this have anything to do with Rahm Emanuel, the Clinton operative, congressman, and partly responsible for the Democratic House victory in 2006?
November 7, 2008 1:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
About as much as Obama's "association" with Bill Ayers made him a Weather Underground terrorist.
November 7, 2008 8:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Those were violent times. I'm hopeful we can avoid that.
November 9, 2008 2:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, anyone who says "ef the Republicans" in public can't be a Likudnik by definition. And I'm glad he wasn't a refusenik either. I'm very happy he accepted the offer.
I think Emanuel's biggest contribution to the Obama administration will be his ability to make deals with the Democratic majority in Congress (where there are an abundance of aisles to reach across also).
Other than that, I think he only cusses because he's got a sawed-off middle finger. If folks think he's too aggressive, send him a prosthetic finger (about the size of Uma Thurman's thumb in "Even Cowgirls Get the Blues."
November 6, 2008 4:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jerry Garcia had a chopped-off middle finger and he was allright by me. We miss our "Captain Trips."
November 6, 2008 6:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
If he said F the republicans he cant be all bad :)
Morning Joke (Joe) is already pumping Boners line on his show. They aren't wasting anytime. I think Ed Rollins had the best take on the COS slot. Obama needs someone he trusts, someone to watch his back, someone who can get the job done while avoiding the gaffes that characterized the Carter and Clinton transitions. Of all the Right Wing Talking heads I have come to appreciate Ed Rollins for his honesty and reluctance to take a cheap shot. Its too soon to be dissecting Obama's choices anyway.
November 6, 2008 5:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wasn't it Ben Franklin that supposedly said "keep quiet and be accused of not knowing much; flap your jaw and relieve all doubt that you are stupid" - or something to that effect. Some of the "sour grapes" GOoPers posting here prove Franklin correct.
November 6, 2008 6:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, woe is me! Obama is a failure as president. We still have economic problems, are still in a mess in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the White House is still occupied territory.
November 6, 2008 6:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Also, Rep. Bonehead (R-OH) says he is afraid Obama is being mean and that guy Rahmbo will say naughty words or try to fight Bonehead and make him cry 'uncle'!
November 6, 2008 7:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
You say that you don't know what his old man's politics on Israel are today. I suspect this might provide a clue:
"In an interview with Ma'ariv, Emanuel's father, Dr. Benjamin Emanuel, said he was convinced that his son's appointment would be good for Israel. "Obviously he will influence the president to be pro-Israel," he was quoted as saying. "Why wouldn't he be? What is he, an Arab? He's not going to clean the floors of the White House.""
(From The Jerusalem Post) (link: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1225910047157&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)
That being said, I don't know about the veracity of this quote, but I was disturbed enough to want to post it.
November 6, 2008 6:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
1. No one should be judged by what his or her parents did. Haider of Austria was justly denounced not because his parents were Nazis but because he acted like one. Talk about this new chief of staff, not things that happened many years before he was born.
2. Whatever lingering conflicts of interest might arise out of Emanuel's having worked on an Israeli military base during the Gulf War, they pale by comparison to members of the current administration with RESPONSIBILITY for Mideast policy in that administration having had much more significant ties to the Israeli military. Whereever the line should be drawn in working for foreign militaries -and it SHOULD BE drawn and more clearly than it usually is- this appointment is clearly much further away from the wrong side of that line than those in the Bush Admin. that elicted hardly a peep of protest.
3. On the list of items that could cause problems for the Obama presidency this looks like being a long, long way down from the top. How many Americans can name a single chief of staff of a single president? Done right, the job should render the holder almost invisible.
November 6, 2008 6:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Welcome to the Zionist Thug club, MJ.
Meanwhile, I'm digging how Chicago is about to become the liberal capitol of America.
November 6, 2008 7:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're no Thug Zionista, despite your claim.
November 6, 2008 7:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nu, who doesn't enjoy a little sarcasm now and then?
November 7, 2008 8:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
So Bar Kafka and Zionista are one of the same! Who knew?
November 6, 2008 7:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Uh huh, MJ.
One of the posters you lumped in with Greenbaum and davai in your own private Deadzone.
November 6, 2008 10:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
And the sum of both is less than the parts.
November 7, 2008 11:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hope youre right about Rahm. I live in Chicago and surprisingly I never paid attention to the guy.
Then again, how often did people talk about Andy Card when he was around for Bush? How often does Josh Bolten get brought up?
Probably this is cuz bush doesn't do anything anyways...hahaha...but at the same time, I am hopeful that this intense focus and overanalyzation on Rahm is just because it's Obama's first decision/appointment as president. Best case scenario would be that he fades to the background on 1/21/09 and starts kicking ass and taking names behind the scenes.
I'll be happy with that.
November 6, 2008 7:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Oslo Accords resulted in the slaughter of a hundreds of Jewish civilians, so it is easy to understand why Rosy remembers them so fondly.
"He supports Israel (so do I)"
Right. In the same way that Ahmadinejad supports Israel. The fact that after all this time you feel it necessary to claim (albeit falsely) you support Israel says it all.
"My guess: he'll be the one encouraging Obama to go for an Israeli-Palestinian deal the first year. And, when the rightwing Jews complain, he'll tell them to stick it up their ass.
And they will."
In your dreams, sweetheart. Pro-Israel Jews do not take orders from pro-Hamas Jews.
You are right about one thing. The Obama administration does intend to sodomize the Jewish people. If it succeeds, you will certainly be one happy jihadist.
November 6, 2008 8:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Enjoy the next 8 years, "Bob Lane." It's a new world.
The America you believed you lived in is gone!
Praise the Lord.
November 6, 2008 8:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Any relation to the Bobby Lane who played QB for the Detroit Lions back in The Day?
November 7, 2008 9:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wow. I wonder if Israel has killed any Palestinians since 2000? From your post, the answer would appear to be none.
P.S. In the real world, things are quite different.
November 7, 2008 12:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
One more thing. 22% of Jews voted GOP for President, which is the precise # of Jewish Republicans.
I've got no problem with that. I believe in the two-party system and Republicans are just Republicans.
But the number of Jewish Dems your friends were able to bring over to McCain by the kind of libelous bs you put out all the time was.....none!
We even carried all the old folks condos in Dade and Broward counties.
Enjoy. Maybe you should convert.
November 6, 2008 8:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Immediately following Obama's victory, Hamas launched missiles towards Jewish civilians in Israel. You will be disappointed to learn that no Jews were killed, but your terrorist allies obviously got the message of the election. Hamas will enjoy the next eight years, as will you. People who do not yearn for the murder of Jews will experience less joy.
Insofar as converting to liberalism is concerned, the requisite progressive brown shirts clash with my baby blue eyes.
November 6, 2008 9:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
quoting bob lane:Immediately following Obama's victory, Hamas launched missiles towards Jewish civilians in Israel. You will be disappointed to learn that no Jews were killed, but your terrorist allies obviously got the message of the election. Hamas will enjoy the next eight years, as will you. People who do not yearn for the murder of Jews will experience less joy.
are you intentionally ignoring the even more horrendous fact that a few hours before obama's victory ,while all the world was completely hypnotized by the climax of the elections , the i.d.f broke a cease fire agreement and launched an air strike inside Gaza , killing five man , who are said to be militants but the identity of three casualties is being concealed ,(suspecting in digging a tunnel for gun moving).
well you probably missed that and probably you would ignore it if you knew' because it'll shake your comfortable world view.
lets not forget the fact that the order to execute these "targeted killing" jobs ,using missiles that cost millions of dollars on the Israelis expense, is based almost solely on suspicion .in fact the code is - suspects in participating in any terror activity are a killing target(the definition of terror activity is very very broad).it happens that suspects are being suspected to hide in a suspicious Palestinian family house.there is a term called "human shield" , as if the terrorist is using a shield made by human.the heroic Israeli commanders , understand the term literally
and blow the "shield" up .leaving civilian casualties and sometimes also hitting the suspect and destroying the families self made home. (its funny that since 1948 just a couple of thousands of building permits were given to the Palestinians .like their population never grow(and it grows...).so they have to build houses and extensions "against the law" and then the i d f comes with huge d-9 bulldozers and take the houses down.
i am Israeli and i am ashamed. as long as Israel will keep on oppressing a whole nation , wrecked and humiliated,in sub conditions , violating human rights with out conscious , threatening everything in 360 degrees while screaming for self acknowledgment , holding 200 nuclear warheads and being one of the only countries who didn't sign the salt2 agreements , keep its own nation in a constant feeling of threat , unsecured , make it seems logical to spend on our expense billions of dollars on weapons while our social economic structure is falling apart . the country is run by an oligarch who keep on privatize every inch of our tiny cities.
Israel isn't a democracy and doesn't have the slightest permission to criticize others 'especially if it is TRYING to produce atomic energy or by suspicion , trying to produce one god damn atomic bomb ,that doesn't even exist yet ,yet all Israelis already afraid from an atomic holocaust ,while the whole north of the country is a huge dump for toxic waste and there is an atom bomb factory under the civilians feet . its a banana republic ran by bunch of really really ignorant vision less cowards.
Israel doesn't have the right to ask for self acknowledgment until shell open hands for the Palestinian nation and acknowledge their suffer their holocaust their "nakba".until she doesn't show true strength which is good will ,a true desire for peace ,she doesn't have the right to criticize and blame the other side in rejection of agreements that are always missing anything really fair for both sides.
just about less then 12 hours ago a bunch of "golani" elite soldiers uploaded to youtube a video where they are shown humiliating a Palestinian prisoner (a random suspect) forcing him to say things like , golani will make you take it up the a hole and all sorts humiliating stuff,thats while the prisoner got his eyes covered and he is crying.
but you wont see it anywhere on surface easily ,heres a link to haaretz in hebrew(who turned also to just another populist newspaper)http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/1035126.html
the Israeli security agency "shin bet" is tracking down left wing activists and marks them.
these people are taking part in non violent activities only.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1035176.html
for me ,obama's victory is a hope that the u.s will stop playing the Israeli politicians game and make it very very clear what should be done and sacrificed in order to achieve true peace.
Rahm Emanuel acknowledge the 68 borders and he knows very well that Israel must retreat accordingly (you can see watch a video of him speaking on his website) , plus he's a tough guy ,hopefully the type of guy that wont moderate himself in front of the Israeli government.
as far as it takes...embargo ,sanctions.
israel is making too much fuss in the international arena while increasing the threat and instability around the world.
the u.s spends at least 3 billion dollars a year on Israel.
obama said that the united states is not the guardian of the world but its the world's job to protect itself .well, i know that when he say that he include Israel ,at least in the long run
i hope good times ahead..
November 7, 2008 1:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bob Lane,
Well, duh! Hamas is dedicated to its opposition to any peace process, so Hamas is reacting to any improved odds for resolution with increased conflict. You ought to be able to sympathize.
November 8, 2008 9:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
ofer chrissakes, zionista. Do you swallow every single piece of codswallop some rightwing nutter writes because if it's a fucking lie about A-RABS it doesn't matter?
Such a good Zionist, who doesn't even know that Islamic Jihad claimed the Qassams in retaliation for an IDF operation that killed 6 in Gaza and that Hamas is taking the initiative to track down rocket launchers.
Would you prefer that Hamas desist from such activity in order to keep up your golem-esque POV rather than deal with the complex realities that Israel is confronting? Do you even know there's been a fucking ceasefire in place for months that BOTH sides are struggling to maintain?
You should be ashamed that this goy knows more about Israel than you do.
November 8, 2008 9:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Converting to liberalism? I meant to fundamentalist Christianity. With 78% of Jews voting for Obama and the rest voting for McCain because they are low-tax Republicans, you are all alone out there.
What does YOUR Jewish community consist of? How many hundreds are you who buy into this racist BS.
Your Jews have abandoned you. They were dancing in the streets about Obama. What to do, "Bob Lane," start talking about Hitler!
Enjoy the next eight years.
I feel you, bro!
November 6, 2008 9:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was pleasantly surprised by the resistance of Jewish voters here in the US to the idiotic smears that so readily suckered the Evangelicals and other low information voters. The only disappointment was that nearly 80% of the US voters living in Israel (mostly Orthodox) voted for McCain. (Adelson's money?) I suppose it's understandable. Haaretz certainly gave Obama fair (or better) coverage!
November 6, 2008 10:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Right. Israeli Israelis were split. American Israelis (the ones who "cling" to their US passports) are mostly Orthodox and were for McCain.
November 6, 2008 10:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Converting to Christianity?
I knew you reminded of someone famous.
Torquemada.
Same emotional profile.
Same humanitarian instincts.
What would you do without the term "racist"?
Anyone who disagrees with you about anything is "racist", even in a context where race is totally absent.
To end on a conciliatory note, I will refrain from "talking about Hitler" since you are adamant that he was framed.
November 6, 2008 9:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Regards to Rev Hagee.
November 7, 2008 8:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
The thing that concerns be a little is the idea that there is this idea that Obama and his staff has to moderate or centrist. I agree that in governing he must be able to heal the divide and encourage participation from both sides, allowing for some bipartisan successes. However, Obama is a Democrat and we elected him as such, and while I don't expect a far left agenda, the term liberal should not continue to demonized.
November 6, 2008 9:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry about that typing hack job.
November 6, 2008 9:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rosenberg wants you to trust him on judging Emmanuel's character.
This is the same Rosenberg who said about Paul Krugman "I no longer trust him" on April, because he was angry that Krugman liked Hillary's health care plan better than Obama's.
Today, Krugman holds a Nobel Prize while Rosenberg remains an obscure TPM Cafe writer.
November 6, 2008 10:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Whom you keep reading....so much for obscurity.
November 7, 2008 11:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, what a change! An Israeli agent in and out of the Oval Office every day, and I imagine that before long MJ will be sleeping in the Lincoln bedroom. Oy vey!
November 6, 2008 11:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nice. I guess being vocally anti-AIPAC is the same as being vocally pro-AIPAC. You are painting with a pretty broad brush.
If I get within a block of the Lincoln Bedroom, you will know that the Age of Aquarius has arrived and the occupation is long over. I'm optimistic, but I'm not on drugs.
November 7, 2008 12:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
MJ Rosenberg,
A couple questions: How does your own medicine taste? And, as Dylan sings it, "How does it feeeeel..."?
November 7, 2008 9:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
MJ I am willing to suspend judgement on your word. If you and Obama think he is OK then I will hold back. Emanuel does sound like a pragmatist and is perhaps not driven by ideology (ie west bank expansion in a zionist program). If so,then he could be a very good choice. I do hope this is the case. However, if he turns out to be another Dennis Ross, I and also many others will be deeply dissappointed.
November 7, 2008 12:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
Syvanen, thanks but PLEASE don't take my word on this one. The only thing I'm doing at this point is trusting Barack Obama. It comes down to the fact thay I don't believe he or Michelle would allow anything resembling a neaocon or Likudnik near US foreign policy making.
Do I know that for a fact? No. But it's been two days. I trust BHO but I don't mean to vouch for Emanuel or anyone else.
I did see him at the Oslo signing. I know that he played a key role back then.
As for those who criticize Oslo, had it been adhered to, the Palestinians would have had a state in 1999. Not much of a state but a start at independence. But the Israeli right killed Rabin. Barak negotiated in bad faith. And then Ariel Sharon decided to take a stroll on the Temple Mount to get himself elected PM and, incidentally, set off the intifada.
Arafat was far from blameless. But the sins of the powerless and the powerful are weighed on different scales.
But, to get back to Emanuel, I don't know much. I don't like that awful JP quote, which could be a fake, and I trust BHO and MRO. So that's it for now.
November 7, 2008 12:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
MJ thanks for your response. It sounds like you went through the same process of dissillusionment I exprerienced through the Oslo process, to Camp David, to the "there is no one to talk to", through the second intifada. I really hope that Obama, with Emanuel's help, can move us towards a real two state solution. I remain skeptical but hopeful.
November 7, 2008 12:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
MJ
"I don't like that awful JP quote, which could be a fake,"
Tell you what. Since the original interview with Rahm's pop is in the Hebrew Ma'ariv, perhaps you could translate the whole deal and share it.
November 7, 2008 2:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Come on guys. The architect of the Oslo Accords? Is anyone aware of the reasons Oslo broke down? The final status of the so-called Palestinian State was a bunch of little islands, so-called autonomous zones. Thats supposed to be a state huh? Really?
As for his dad not being rightwing or whatever, he surpasses rightwing and turns the corner on being a complete racist.
From today's Jerusalem Post:
In an interview with Ma'ariv, Emanuel's father, Dr. Benjamin Emanuel, said he was convinced that his son's appointment would be good for Israel. "Obviously he will influence the president to be pro-Israel," he was quoted as saying. "Why wouldn't he be? What is he, an Arab? He's not going to clean the floors of the White House."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1225910047157&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/Printer
Not to mention Rahm served in the IDF during the 1st Gulf War and supported invading Iraq this time around.
Don't expect any occupations to end on this guys watch.
November 7, 2008 12:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
We have a very good understanding for why the Oslo accords broke down. What MJ is talking about now is whether or not Emanuel can help us get beyond that fiasco. You are a few years behind in this discussion. But keep on studying, your heart is in the right place.
November 7, 2008 2:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
MJ, thanks for this post. There was a post on HuffPo today by an Israeli young woman whining about McCain's loss and saying that Israeli's supported McCain because Obama can't be trusted to protect them the Bush has. (WFT?) I wanted to thow My laptop across the room. Is that truth or bullshit?
November 7, 2008 12:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
quoting bob lane:Immediately following Obama's victory, Hamas launched missiles towards Jewish civilians in Israel. You will be disappointed to learn that no Jews were killed, but your terrorist allies obviously got the message of the election. Hamas will enjoy the next eight years, as will you. People who do not yearn for the murder of Jews will experience less joy.
are you intentionally ignoring the even more horrendous fact that a few hours before obama's victory ,while all the world was completely hypnotized by the climax of the elections , the i.d.f broke a cease fire agreement and launched an air strike inside Gaza , killing five man , who are said to be militants but the identity of three casualties is being concealed ,(suspecting in digging a tunnel for gun moving).
well you probably missed that and probably you would ignore it if you knew' because it'll shake your comfortable world view.
lets not forget the fact that the order to execute these "targeted killing" jobs ,using missiles that cost millions of dollars on the Israelis expense, is based almost solely on suspicion .in fact the code is - suspects in participating in any terror activity are a killing target(the definition of terror activity is very very broad).it happens that suspects are being suspected to hide in a suspicious Palestinian family house.there is a term called "human shield" , as if the terrorist is using a shield made by human.the heroic Israeli commanders , understand the term literally
and blow the "shield" up .leaving civilian casualties and sometimes also hitting the suspect and destroying the families self made home. (its funny that since 1948 just a couple of thousands of building permits were given to the Palestinians .like their population never grow(and it grows...).so they have to build houses and extensions "against the law" and then the i d f comes with huge d-9 bulldozers and take the houses down.
i am Israeli and i am ashamed. as long as Israel will keep on oppressing a whole nation , wrecked and humiliated,in sub conditions , violating human rights with out conscious , threatening everything in 360 degrees while screaming for self acknowledgment , holding 200 nuclear warheads and being one of the only countries who didn't sign the salt2 agreements , keep its own nation in a constant feeling of threat , unsecured , make it seems logical to spend on our expense billions of dollars on weapons while our social economic structure is falling apart . the country is run by an oligarch who keep on privatize every inch of our tiny cities.
Israel isn't a democracy and doesn't have the slightest permission to criticize others especially if it is TRYING to produce atomic energy or by suspicion , trying to produce one god damn atomic bomb ,that doesn't even exist yet ,yet all Israelis already afraid from an atomic holocaust and the whole north of the country is a huge dump for toxic waste and there is an atom bomb factory under the civilians feet . its a banana republic ran by bunch of really really ignorant vision less cowards.
(not mentioning that through the last 3-4 years maybe 8 high ranking politicians including the prime minister and the former president are under investigations because of fraud ,spending our money on private vacations , sex harassment(the president wtf??)and the list goes on and on and on
Israel doesn't have the right to ask for self acknowledgment until shell open hands for the Palestinian nation and acknowledge their suffer their holocaust their "nakba".until she doesn't show true strength which is good will ,a true desire for peace ,she doesn't have the right to criticize and blame the other side in rejection of agreements that are always missing anything really fair for both sides.
just about less then 12 hours ago a bunch of "golani" elite soldiers uploaded to youtube a video where they are shown humiliating a Palestinian prisoner (a random suspect) forcing him to say things like , golani will make you take it up the a hole and all sorts humiliating stuff,that's while the prisoner got his eyes covered and he is crying.
but you wont see it anywhere on the surface easily ,here is a link to haaretz in Hebrew(who turned also to just another populist newspaper)http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/1035126.html
the Israeli security agency "shin bet" is tracking down left wing activists and marks them.
these people are taking part in non violent activities only.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1035176.html
for me ,obama's victory is a hope that the u.s will stop playing the Israeli politicians game and make it very very clear what should be done and sacrificed in order to achieve true peace.
Rahm Emanuel acknowledge the 68 borders and he knows very well that Israel must retreat accordingly (you can see watch a video of him speaking on his website) , plus he's a tough guy ,hopefully the type of guy that wont moderate himself in front of the Israeli government.
as far as it takes...embargo ,sanctions.
Israel is making too much fuss in the international arena while increasing the threat and instability around the world.
the u.s spends at least 3 billion dollars a year on Israel.
obama said that the united states is not the guardian of the world but its the world's job to protect itself .well, i know that when he say that he include Israel ,at least in the long run
i hope good times ahead..
November 7, 2008 1:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
The problem is not that Rahm Emanuel is a committed Zionist with antecedents that include the Stern Gang and LEHI - but that he will be a key member of the new administration. That is a huge shock for those of us around the world who support President elect Obama. It is also a long overdue explanation of that extraordinary meeting with AIPAC at which the totally unexpected and uncalled for promise was given not to allow East Jerusalem to be the capital of a future Palestinian state. Everything has an answer if you wait long enough and now we know that the US will continue to uphold Israel's hegemony in the Middle East and that there will be no peace. How one's hopes have been dashed so quickly - in just a mere 24 hours!
November 7, 2008 3:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Don't freak out.
Obama never promised, as you claim, "not to allow East Jerusalem to be the capital of a future Palestinian state."
At AIPAC, he talked about the city remaining "undivided." Not, as others have vowed, "the undivided capital of Israel."
Obama quickly clarified that the status of the city is entirely a matter for negotiation. Jerusalem can be the capital of two states without a wall running through its centre.
Finally, important as it is, chief of staff is not a policy position. Neither Rahm Emanuel nor his father will set U.S. Mideast policy.
November 7, 2008 5:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
With the appointment of Emanuel, Obama shows that he wants to run a very tight ship with a very clear chain of command: Emanuel is a pit bull (hold the lipstick).
There are many people who are very together, focused, very tough and efficient that don't have a reputation for being mean. Obama has chosen someone who has the reputation of being mean. The message that Obama sends with Emanuel's appointment is intimidation: be afraid, and if you are not afraid of me, be afraid of my creature.
When ruminating on this appointment a very strange name popped up on my screen: H.R. Haldeman. Haldeman formed with John Ehrlichman, what was known as Richard Nixon's "Berlin Wall". Wikipedia describes their role thusly:
I guess Haldeman's name popped up in my mind because it seems obvious that Rahm Emanuel is taking the role of "Obama's son of a bitch".Of course, Obama needs someone tough, knowledgeable and efficient to run his White House. Emanuel is probably all of those things, but what he is most known for is for being is a prick.
Why does Obama feel he needs a prick for chief of staff?
A world class son of a bitch like Nixon's needing people like Haldeman and Ehrlichman around was seen as a portent of much of what brought him down.
But before we get too deep into psychobabble, perhaps this is just Chicago's mayor Daley calling in an I.O.U.
November 7, 2008 3:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting that you mention Haldeman. It is true that he was brought down by Nixson's paranoia but he is credited with pushing Nixon into supporting some major environmental legislations. Based on memory, there was the EPA and the Clean air and water acts. Not a bad legacy in my opinion.
November 7, 2008 4:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Syvanen,
You must really be a beautiful soul to have a good word for H.R. Haldeman!
November 7, 2008 4:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Great posting and thanks for the history brief.
I am not that familiar with Chicago politics.
I guess Im going to have to bone up.
I sort of assumed Obama was sending a signal to the Republicans and the Democrats. That he is tough enough to play this game.
November 7, 2008 7:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
"We can expect a daily tirade of fault-finding, scurrilous attacks on everything and anything the Democrats say or do."
True enough, which is why I'm glad that Obama chose a street fighter and not a conciliator as chief-of-staff. The Republicans would like nothing more than Obama to act like Jimmy Carter redux, leading with his noble chin. Obama is not Nixon, dripping resentment and paranoia, he's got an excellent nose for what it takes to win, and now that he's not campaigning, he's got to win his agenda. He'll make his deals from a position of strength.
Basically I'm glad he chose Emmanuel for the same reason I was glad he turned down public financing. It tells me Obama is in it to win it.
November 7, 2008 4:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Like any president, Obama needs a tough, experienced, organized and loyal chief of staff: there is no doubt about that.
However, Rahm Emanuel is known to be much, much more than that. I think the discussion would be about what that "that more" is.
Personally, I think this is all about Richard Daley calling in his chits... He wants to keep close tabs on his star pupil.
November 7, 2008 6:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
MJ wrote:
-------------------------------------------------
My guess: he'll be the one encouraging Obama to go for an Israeli-Palestinian deal the first year. And, when the rightwing Jews complain, he'll tell them to stick it up their ass.
----------------------------------------------
As usual, MJ has it wrong. They are going to have to stick it to the Palestinians, because they are the intransigent party. MJ keeps repeating the mantra of the "progressives" that says "everyone knows the outline of the agreement" and that the Palestinians have supposedly agreed to it and it is only a matter of forcing the Israelis to accept it and Obama is the one who is finally going to do it.
WRONG. Yossi Alpher, one of the "progressives" who was behind the scenes at Oslo wrote on 4 October in the Jerusalem Post that "there is no agreement on ANYTHING". The Palestinians are making non-negotiable demands that the most Leftist-government in Israel will not be able to accept.
Whether Obama is President for 4 or 8 years, there will still not be a Palestinian state when he leaves office BECAUSE THE PALESTINIANS AND THE REST OF THE ARAB WORLD DON'T WANT ONE.
November 7, 2008 8:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Pure gold: " They are going to have to stick it to the Palestinians, because they are the intransigent party."
Yes, watching their olive groves being leveled and their farmland confiscated is proof of their intransigence.
November 7, 2008 11:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
it always has been that the peace talks between Israel and the Arab world included a refuse from Israel's side to completely withdrew back to the borders of 67 according to the 242 resolution.
the Oslo agreement was a disgrace for the Palestinians since Arafat was securing his status on the expense of not only the question of the Palestinians rights , a subject that didn't even came up but also a very limited and partial withdraw from the west bank and Gaza which are conquered lands.
it meant also the right of Israel to conduct military activity within the Palestinian land as much as needed plus control over natural resources ,leaving the Palestinian authority only the control over its people who are poor miserable hungry and angry.
the Israeli government control the water supply inside Gaza and the west bank since the kineret lake and all roads are on the Israeli side.
people inside their divided villages cant afford a shower or even drinking as much as they want since they get limited water supply which they collect with pots and plastic cans not from the tap.
the idea that Israel will control all natural and essential resources she'll find important are implemented in the Alon program from 68 and the Oslo agreement is based on it.
the 2000 camp David summit is a complete joke as well.the terms are more or less the same except that Ehud barrack is willing to give all Gaza strip and some of the west bank (claiming it will expend with years).if you know the map of the region 'Gaza seats on the seashore and the west bank is on the other side.so a Palestinian state will be divided into two regions with Israel in the middle and maybe a single secured road connecting them.
another demand by Israel is a road dividing the west bank ,from north to south.Palestinians will be able to use the road only by permission and Israel has the right to close it for Palestinians for security reasons.
thus , this road have an ethnic ranking.giving more rights to Israelis
this road exist... and its barley in use from the evening hours.Palestinians have to use a broken stony bumpy roads , around the Israeli road ,which make their daily journeys to work , hospital , schools ,visiting families and so on much much longer. taking into concern also a roadblock or a check point every so and so.
in camp david ,the Israeli negotiators denied responsibility to the refugee problem and their right of return.
Israel demanded complete control over Palestinian airspace , stationing army in the Jordan valley , deploy troops inside Palestinian territory for security reasons.
then , ehud barack came back to israel all smeard with righteousness , saying that "the Palestinians aren't interested in peace.
they aren't willing to compromise.
lets see him or you or me living in their conditions and giving up land and self dignity.
they compromised enough.when will Israel will compromise?
since the occupancy of the west bank Israel never agreed on a full retreat.when Sadat,the former president of egypt , who is the only man in the history of the region who showed good will ,agreed in 1971 for peace in return of the conquered territories , Israel was "pleased" but repel the suggestion since she wont retreat back to the 67 borders.
only when Sadat suggested to come to Jerusalem to discuss peace ,Israel agreed to talk and except giving back the Sinai peninsula to Egypt, nothing good came out of the 78 camp David accords.
to say that ALL ARABS don't want peace , like "the Arabs" is one huge multiple headed monster ,is complete ignorance.you obviously full of prejudice and know nothing about the history of the region.
im Israeli and its in my interest to see the u.s forcing (for a change) Israel to do the right thing for the sake of everyone in the region.
as im realistic ,it is somthing i hope for my future kids and grand kids . our security and existence is dependent on that.its either this or unending bloodshed that will blow up either way
November 7, 2008 2:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Congs. Rahm Emanuel will be a good person for Obama - he'll keep both Obama and Congress in check with their egos.
As for the evolving staff selection, my final bet is on Tres Sec Summers:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15391.html
"Economic insiders consider Summers and Geithner the most serious contenders. “I’ll fall out of my chair if it’s not one of the two,” said a former senior Treasury official."
And that weasel and cheating husband, Antonio Villaraigosa (Mayor, City of Los Angeles), wiggled his way into Obama's economic meeting, after the quid-pro-quo for the Hispanic vote.
November 7, 2008 10:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Be careful of the 78% figure of American Jewish support for Obama based on exit polls, unless you are certain--which I'm not--that Orthodox Jews are proportionately represented in those exit poll samples. Anyone looking at results from Monsey and Borough Park Assembly Districts in NY--areas of Orthodox voter concentration-- will see much more than 22% support for McCain.
Michelle Obama is an accomplished woman and will make a great First Lady, but she's not going to decide I-P policy. Barack Obama will, aided by former Ambassador Ross who was Bill Clinton's Mideast expert and who did infinitely more than anyone posting here to try to fashion a lasting two-state solution.
November 7, 2008 11:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
AIPACman,
Dennis Ross is a great public servant. When he worked for James Baker, he worked with Bush/Baker to bring down Shamir and bring in Rabin. And to block the loan guarantees.
When he worked for Clinton, he was less aggressive because Clinton and Albright were.
If he works for BHO and MRO and whoever the Secretary of State is, he'll do what he is told to do.
That is how it works. To imply that he will do Bibi's bidding is to suggest that, like Eliot Abrams, his loyalties lie elsewhere. They do not. Ask Jim Baker. Or George HW Bush. Or Bill Clinton.
November 7, 2008 11:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm positive Dennis Ross is a wonderful public servant, I'm just not sure who he's serving. His profile on RightWeb shows he's in deep with some of the primary groups and think tanks of the Israeli Lobby, including the Project for the American Century and WINEP, Washington Institute for Near East Policy. And there's this choice morsel from his bio on Wikipedia (not exactly known for proffering a radically subversive agenda):
"According to Aaron David Miller, a member of the Ross-led US negotiating team in 1999-2000, under Ross they frequently acted as "Israel's lawyer." According to Miller, 'With the best of motives and intentions, we listened to and followed Israel's lead without critically examining what that would mean for our own interests, for those on the Arab side and for the overall success of the negotiations. The "no surprises" policy, under which we had to run everything by Israel first, stripped our policy of the independence and flexibility required for serious peacemaking. If we couldn't put proposals on the table without checking with the Israelis first, and refused to push back when they said no, how effective could our mediation be? Far too often, particularly when it came to Israeli-Palestinian diplomacy, our departure point was not what was needed to reach an agreement acceptable to both sides but what would pass with only one - Israel.'"
There was a chance for this country to dissolve our unhealthy, joined-at-the-hip relationship with Israel, and with appointments like Emanuel and Ross, as well as suggesting Jane Harman as CIA chief (!), that possibility is dissipating. We must, finally, remember: Israel is a sovreign nation, one with its own goals and priorities, its own policies and prerogative - as it should be. The United States has its own - and they are NOT the same as Israel's, regardless of how much that country's American proponents would have it so.
November 7, 2008 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
You have a very simplistic view of how power is exercised, Mr. Rosenberg.
Dennis Ross will not do what he is told to do unless he agrees with that policy, he will be central to formulating that policy, and there is absolutely no evidence that he told Baker and Bush to threaten the Israelis in 1991. There is plenty of evidence, including his books and his interviews on Charlie Rose, that he does not agree that your brand of diplomacy--i.e. prescribe the terms of a settlement and tell Israel to take it or else-- will be effective in persuading a weak Israeli Government to take calulated risks for peace.
November 7, 2008 12:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dennis Ross diplomacy will end in failure...unless the Palestinians agree to relocate to the moon. He's is much a "good faith mediator" as Karl Rove is an independent political analyst.
If BHO want to succeed in ME diplomacy, then Ross needs to stay home.
November 7, 2008 4:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
And how many hours of your life have you spent working for the US gov't?
None, I'll bet (or else you'd be poor like me and unable to be the #1 richest TPM donor to Obama).
So I'll tell you.
In government -- and I was a Clinton political appointee -- only ONE person does not follow the boss's policy (the President, for obvious reasons).
Dennis Ross, if nominated to a top position, will carry out policy, whatever it is, and he'd be the first to tell you that. You see, this is a democracy and that's how it works. Don't they teach you that at the Policy Conference?
November 7, 2008 9:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Above was for AIPAC dude, not mythbuster.
November 7, 2008 9:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, Mr. Rosenberg, I spent quite a few hours working for the federal government and learning how power is exercised in a democracy from the great Morrie Amitay. Morrie knows more about Mideast diplomacy than you ever will.
November 8, 2008 4:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
As chairman of the House Democratic caucus during the Bush administration Rahm was in a position guaranteed to make him unpopular with most Republicans as well as a good segment of the Democratic party. If he wasn't a tough guy he would have been slacking on the job. That does not mean he is going to take the same style into the White House. He is going to have to adapt to Obama's needs and agenda, and he probably will.
On the other hand he brings with him some of the key ingredients needed in a WH COS: loyalty to the Chief, a lot of experience working with Congress, and a personal relationship of trust going way back, and mostly he will not suffer fools who want Obama's ear.
November 7, 2008 11:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Note to Josh:
"I swore to never be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides, Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim, silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented."
Elie Wiesel, in spirit, on Prop 8.
November 7, 2008 2:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rahm Emanuel is no Reason for Hope or Celebration
by Rabbi Michael Lerner
Election night tens of millions of us wept for joy. We sang the songs that we had sung as young men and women when we were fighting segregation in the south and then in the North, some of us being beaten, others jailed, some even killed. For the first time in three decades we could sing "Imagine" and "The Times They are a'Changing" without feeling that we were holding onto utopian fantasies that had been
buried by the cynical realists who have shaped public discourse.
How exciting to believe again in the possibility of America as the potential embodiment of our ideals for social justice, peace, and ecological sanity. We could hardly believe our own eyes-we were living through the rebirth of a nation and its attempt to heal its racist past.
So no wonder why many of us were shocked and deeply disappointed when we learned on Thursday that Congressman Rahm Emanuel was to be the Chief of Staff in the Obama White House.
Emanuel, for those who don't recall, was the Congressman who traveled the country in 2006 finding "suitable" candidates in "swing districts" to run against Republican incumbents, and in many instances he succeeded. But his theory of how to succeed was destructive: he sought the most conservative possible candidates in each district, insisting that local Democratic Party organizations reject more liberal candidates who, he feared, might not win.
There were many among the House Democrats who deplored this tactic. The main issue on the mind of the electorate was the war in Iraq, and public opinion had moved so far in opposition to that war that the Democratic leadership in the House was pushed to proclaim that it would cut off funding for the war if Democrats won control of Congress. Well, the outcome was that Democrats did win control, but since the candidates that Emanuel picked were more conservative and militarist than the mainstream of the Party, they were not reliable allies when it came to voting against war funding. Instead of cutting fund for the war, Nancy Pelosi's House increased the funding, explaining that they had to appear "responsible" in order to solidify their control of Congress in 2008..
Clever? Not for the people, Americans and Iraqis, killed or wounded in the meantime.
This was no mistake on Emanuel's part. Rahm Emanuel has a long history of militarist ideology behind him. His father was a member of the ultra-right-wing terrorist organization Etzel that killed British civilians as part of their anti-British struggle in Palestine in the 1940s. Emanuel, himself a citizen of Israel as well as the United States, [and who actually joined the Israeli Defence Force] has been one of several Congressional leaders enforcing the "Israel Lobby" concensus on the Democrats, in the process shutting out the peace voices that believe Israel's security would be better served by the U.S. putting pressure on Israel to end the Occupation, move the Wall to inside the pre-67 boundaries, and remove the settlers from the West Bank or tell them to live there as Palestinian citizens.
It's not just the pro-peace and reconciliation forces that are unlikely to be given a serious hearing in a White House in which Rahm Emanuel controls who gets to talk to the President. Emanuel will almost certainly be protecting Obama from all of us spiritual progressives and those of us who describe ourselves as the Religious Left-so that our commitment to single-payer universal health care, carbon taxes for environmental protection, a Homeland Security strategy based on generosity and implemented through a Global Marshall Plan, will be unlikely to get a serious hearing in the White House.
When these issues were avoided by Obama during the campaign, most of us spiritual progressives told ourselves, "He's just being political, but once elected he'll reveal himself committed to the values that he whispered into our ears privately over the course of the past many years." The Rahm Emanuel selection is an early warning that the peace and justice agenda dropped by Obama after he won the Democratic nomination may be permanently on hold, and the progressives themselves may have to settle for "access" and flowery words at an inauguration address rather than the substance of change. For many of us, just the fact of having a brilliant young black man in the White House will be such a healing experience that we won't care about this newly emerging reality: unless Obama creates some other path to access and to public input into his policies by those of us who helped build his electoral success, or unless we organize to do so outside the framework of his campaign organization, we may be in for lots of disappointments.
Rabbi Michael Lerner is editor of Tikkun Magazine www.tikkun.org, chair of the Network of Spiritual Progressives www.spiritualprogressives.org, author of 11 books (most recently the 2006 national best-seller The Left Hand of God) and as a member of Rabbis for Obama recently debated Bill Kristol about how Jews should vote in the election. RabbiLerner@tikkun.org
November 7, 2008 7:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, jerk, Rahm Emmanuel, along with David Axelrod and Joe Biden (one of Israel's greatest champions in Congress), will help prevent President Obama from turning into President Carter--a one term failure.
November 8, 2008 4:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Benjamin Emanuel:
"Obviously he will influence the president to be pro-Israel... Why wouldn't he be? What is he, an Arab? He's not going to clean the floors of the White House."
His son is a hardliner
Simple.
November 8, 2008 12:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Dennis Ross is a great public servant."
Here's...
some...
context.
November 8, 2008 12:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thought Robert Fisk's artical in the Independent today's issue might be of interest:
www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-obama-has-to-pay-for-eight-years-of-bushs-delusions-1001092.html
rachid
November 8, 2008 6:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Listen to me very, very, clearly: Barack Obama will not do to Israel what Fisk, Rosenberg and you want him to because he knows--and the people closest to him know-- what happens to presidents who fuck with my friends and me. They get dis-elected.
Of course, there will arise tactical disagreements between President Obama and the democratically elected leader of the State of Israel. There were disagreements, believe it or not, between Sharon and later Olmert and George W. Bush. But when those occur, I am confident Barack Obama will know how to resolve those without public scolding and diplomatic ineptness. That's why I supported him.
November 8, 2008 4:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
FROM MONDOWEISS-
My friend Rupa Shah sent me this piece from Wayne Madsen's website (for subscribers only): Madsen says that Obama may face a security issue with Emanuel since "informed U.S. intelligence sources [say] that prospective Barack Obama White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel has an active FBI counter-intelligence file maintained on him... Questions about Emanuel's links to the Israeli intelligence service, the Mossad, were allegedly so great that President Bill Clinton was forced to dismiss Emanuel from the White House staff in 1998."
SOURCE- http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/11/my-friend-rupa-shah-sent-me-this-piece-from-wayne-madsens-website-for-subscribers-only.html
November 8, 2008 11:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama, McCain campaigns' computers hacked for policy data
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Computers at the headquarters of the Barack Obama and John McCain campaigns were hacked during the campaign by a foreign entity looking for future policy information, a source with knowledge of the incidents confirms to CNN.
The source said the computers were hacked mid-summer by either a foreign government or organization.
Another source, a law enforcement official familiar with the investigation, says federal investigators approached both campaigns with information the U.S. government had about the hacking, and the campaigns then hired private companies to mitigate the problem.
U.S. authorities, according to one of the sources, believe they know who the foreign entity responsible for the hacking is, but refused to identify it in any way, including what country.
SOURCE- http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/11/06/campaign.computers.hacked/
November 9, 2008 2:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
HAARETZ COMMENTER-
Title: Good Irgun stock?
Name: Bronxite10
City: NY State: NY
Rahn Emanuel may be a fine choice. Hopefully, he is more astute than William Daroff, the director of the Washington office of the United Jewish Communities who said Emanuel came from "fine Irgun stock". No one in the Jewish mainstream is ready to rehabilite the Irgun.
You have to excuse Daroff. In order to survive, the ill-paid denizens of Jewish institutional America have to placate the machers who fund them. I wonder who Daroff was trying to stroke with that particular off the wall comment.
SOURCE- http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/ResponseDetails.jhtml?resNo=4088553&itemno=1035128&cont=2
November 9, 2008 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink