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Roosevelt-Eleanor.JPGNow that we're entering the Golden Age of Obamanian Socialism, we (you, actually) need some instruction on the concept of redistribution. The word is being thrown around loosely by addled minds on both sides of our political divide. As the only representative of the Spartacusbund on this hopelessly moderate web site, the task of providing enlightenment falls to me.

First we should note that our hero Karl Marx did not dwell on redistribution as an ethical policy to advance equity. For him the distribution of income over classes -- what most economists call the functional distribution of income -- was an analytical aspect of the laws of motion under Capitalism. Sure Marx supported obvious reforms such as a progressive income tax, but that was a subordinate feature of his work. Redistribution from rich to not-rich is a liberal and populist trip.

As for socialism, the usual definition is government ownership of capital -- the "means of production." Obama has yet to explore that terrain. George Bush is the real pioneer there. A looser definition is the heavy provision of public services. Of course all governments have services, so how much is a lot? The U.S. ranks near the bottom of industrialized nations in public spending as a share of GDP.

What is the border between socialism and not-socialism? Obviously there is none. In the past, conservatives like William F. Buckley pointed out that if you take health care and defense out of the mix, the U.S. public sector is more comparable in size to those in Europe. Do we have part-socialism already? Obviously this is a stupid debate, John McCain is a stupid man, and Republicans are a stupid party. If everybody is socialist, nobody is.

Regarding redistribution, the usual understanding is that when the tax burden is moved across income classes, there is redistribution. This is misleading because the "re" in redistribution implies some initial, primary distribution, sometimes called the pretax distribution of income (or wealth, depending on the context). Thing is, the pretax distribution of income does not exist. It presumes a distribution of income in the absence of government. But with no government, said distribution would be completely different. There is no redistribution. The Right says, "It's your money." Sorry, it isn't. Not economically, nor legally (taxes are owed as income is accrued). What's left is your money.

To be sure, a given government policy change alters the distribution of well-being from what it would be in the absence of that given policy change, and the movement could be towards greater or lesser equality, among other possibilities. Is that what Obama is doing? I would say no. Here you can find a chart of the impact of Obama's tax plan by income class. The lowest quintile gets nearly a six percent increase, the top one percent gets almost a three percent cut. Sound big to you?

In this paper you can find estimates of the distribution of cash income in 2010 (the years don't match up, but this is a blog, not a Brookings panel). The botton quintile has 3.7%, the top one percent has 19 percent. Add a six percent increase to 3.7% and you get 3.9%. Take three percent away from the top group and you come down from 19 to 18.4%. So instead of a ratio of 19 percent for a group 1/20th size of the people with 3.7%, you have 18.4 and 3.9. If this is socialism, I am Mother Jones. True social-democrats understand that fruits of redistribution derive from the expenditure side of the budget, not the tax side.

The limited action in tax policy for the past two decades or so pertains to the highest and lowest slivers of the population, in terms of income. Democrats tighten the screws on the top and loosen them on the bottom, while Republicans do the opposite. The burden on those in the middle changes much less, if at all. Any such changes, moreover, are temporary insofar as they are financed by higher deficits. The bill comes due later. Meanwhile, the distribution of "market (sic) income" -- wages, salaries, dividends, interest -- has grown much less equal, in comparison to which Democrats' tax changes are meager.

Some liberals enjoy the prospect of redistribution in Obama's tax proposals. They miss crucial angles. Redistribution, among other illusions, summons up the image of taking from one and giving to the other, perhaps to the undeserving poor. First of all, compared to current law (including the expiration of the Bush tax cuts), Obama is offering a net tax reduction. The reduction is bigger for some than for others. Secondly, Obama's infamous refundable tax credits (like McCain's), are conditioned on work. Work implies a payroll tax burden, so a refundable income tax credit is a genuine payroll tax cut, if the individual in question owes less in income tax than in payroll tax.

Second, people forget that welfare has been "reformed." There is no more Federal program called Aid to Families with Dependent Children. The Feds do not give cash to able-bodied people who don't work, unless you count George Bush. There are no more poor people. There are poor workers. The only redeeming virtue of the 1996 welfare reform, for which a toasty place in Hell is reserved for William Jefferson Clinton, is for all practical purposes to turn "welfare" into a wage supplement program. The welfare system is now one of work-conditioned benefits. We're a long way from Das Kapital.

The right-wing canard was that AFDC went to people who wouldn't work. That's gone. Even conservatives say so. Now we're giving working people a raise. That's a different political ballgame. Obama is taking advantage of it. His supporters should do likewise, rather than take pleasure in the long-awaited return of old-style redistribution via public assistance. It's not in Obama's platform.

I personally doubt that many people care about the distribution of income. Said distribution is a column of percentages. People are aggrieved when their expectations of income are not met, and especially when they cannot afford the standard of living to which they have become accustomed. They are suspicious of the promise of government assistance, I would guess for three reasons: 1) they are not confident they will be net recipients in the exercise, rather than net payers; 2) it affronts their pride in earning their own way, or their animus towards those they perceive to not be earning; and 3) they worry about the government's financial solvency.

Work-conditioned benefits are broadly distributed, alleviating problem 1. They depend on work, dealing with (2). Demonstrated budget discipline (which need not imply a balanced budget) addresses (3). Obama has made his tax firewall -- $250,000, below it you don't pay more tax -- abundantly clear to the voters. Within that comfort zone an expansion of work-based benefits is feasible. It could be argued that an emphasis on work-based benefits makes easier the provision of other benefits.

Just don't call it socialism. Save that for the really good stuff.


87 Comments

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You make it sound as if wealth is some stuff lying around the ground of which there is only so much and the REALLY BIG PROBLEM (RBP) is to determine how it is distributed. Wealth is created and nobody sitting on their fat ass pontificating about what Karl Marx would say is creating anything of the kind.

So it is quite simple wealth should be DISTRIBUTED (note not RE-) according to what you produce that is of value to society as a whole: as to what has some utility.

Granted given the vagaries and accidents of nature, some people might not be able to produce much of any value. THEY have to be taken care of by the rest. But those who sit on their fat asses collecting "dividends" are not creating any wealth but sucking the blood from the working man's labor.

As per Karl Marx's little formula "to each according to their needs from each according to their abilities", there is something to be said for that, but not much. One way to read it is that he who practices from a young age to become a useless sloth needs to be taken care of by he who labors mightily to improve the human condition. Another—more benign-- way to read it is that those who cannot do for themselves need to be taken care of by those of us who can. There is a blur there somewhere.

The state of the American Social Contract (ASC) is a raw deal for the average person indeed and it is only stupefying habit and a constant infusion of opiates (of which religion is only a minor part these days) that keeps the victims from rebelling.

Adam Smith was Blind as a Bat (BAB) and because of that he hallucinated the existence of an "invisible hand" which nobody could see but that was morally omnipotent.

A full throttled socialist meritocracy would DISTRIBUTE wealth according to how much a person contributes to THE PRODUCTION OF REAL WEALTH (which is not to be confused with the production of paper money at the mint), and adjustments will be made in this distribution to compensate for the unequal distribution of capacity to produce.

Not really rocket science, really

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. . . it is quite simple wealth should be DISTRIBUTED (note not RE-) according to what you produce that is of value to society . . . .

How do we determine what "is of value to society"? Clearly, it can't be based on the amount of earnings (only a part of Stan O'Neill's and Dick Fuld's earnings were of "value to society"). And certainly, the earnings of fraud perpetrating mortgage brokers were not socially valuable.

So, what facts should we find before we apply your distribution formula?

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Clearly bankrupting the country is NOT valuable to society and the CEO's responsible for it should not be rewarded with Golden Parachutes

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May I assume that your "ought" is really "is" with some minor tweaks -- that is, you're leaving it up to the market (the "invisible hand") and only seeking an adjustment at the extremes?

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I am a firm believer in social control. So No, I don't believe that things work themselves out by themselves without any "social engineering".

Capitalist are always extremely anxious to instill the notion that government is the problem and that's because they don't want social control and that is because they are holding a royal flush and are not in the mood to reshuffle the deck.

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It's called "voting". For example, my ballot will ask me if I want to increase my taxes to pay for my local schools.

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So you're the guy who voted to give Stan O'Neill a $159 million severance package in 2007. Thank God we have the franchise.

Did you also vote in favor of his $48 million 2006 compensation?

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To the extent that we rely upon an income tax to fund government expenses, fairness of after-tax income results has at least as much to do with what gets taxed as it has to do with what tax brackets income earners are placed in.

Three decades of current tax policy has resulted in the privileging of corporate income and individuals' investment income over workers' wage income. When was the last time any of us heard anyone debating the proper rate of depreciation and depletion allowances; or the proper pricing of assets transfered between sister companies; etc.? When did the question of why capital gains are so very privileged rise to the level of political consciousness?

The time is right for a debate and a major change in the way we tax the fruits of workers' efforts which now go to a rent-seeking class whose proven immorality should make readjustment among classes highly attractive.

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Sha! Right!

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exactly Ellen!

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Is the person who buys housing at a low price and later sells it at a high price "creating" wealth? How about the person who buys stocks at a low price and is lucky enough that people are soon willing to buy it at a higher price - is he "creating" wealth? My answer is no. Nor, is the person who buys a lot of gold Krugerands, and gets lucky when people become willing to pay more for them than he did "creating" wealth. My opinion is that those people are just gamblers, and gamblers certainly don't "create" wealth. So, who does "create" wealth?

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Would you agree that the founders of successful business enterprises along with early investors (venture capitalists, for example) "create" wealth?

If so, should the taxing of their rewards (upon the sale of their ownership interests to others) be treated differently from the rewards which go to uninspired, uncreative johnny-come-lately so-called investors?

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Seems this discussion needs a definition of wealth to avoid all sorts of misunderstandings or sophistic arguments. I don't agree that these are all-inclusive or exhaustive, but here are the relevant portions of the definition from MW's 11th Collegiate:

"2) valuable material possessions or resources
4) all property that has a money value or an exchangeable value; all material objects that have economic utility, especially : the stock of useful goods having economic value in existence at any one time"

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I have a better (I believe) definition: wealth is the ability to achieve one's desires.

This definition has a far-reaching consequence: decreasing one's desires increases one's wealth, and one who achieves the Buddhist nirvana (the abolition of all desires) becomes infinitely wealthy.

Others are, of course, free to reject my defintion. :-)

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Yes CT, that is entirely so. That's when a single pine needle holds the wealth of the entire universe...

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I have a better (I believe) definition: wealth is the ability to achieve one's desires

I would say that power and they are not equivalent

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I would say that "power" is the subset of "wealth" that applies to "the ability to get people to do what you want without the use of monetary rewards". When you use money (by which I mean any "medium of exchange") you are using the kind of wealth most people refer to most of the time when they use the unqualified word "wealth", but there are other kinds (usually qualified). For instance, there is genetic wealth, which results in good health and/or a long life, vs genetic poverty. One can have a wealth of friendships, which is sort of a soft version of political power, or a wealth of "political capital" that gives one political power. All of these are forms of that nebulous thing I call "wealth".

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That's because contrary to popular belief wealth is not created at all. Wealth is merely a measure of status bestowed upon an individual in various ways by the rest of society. Wealth provides privilege and is the key to power over others. It is a finite entity. Democracy is the great "equalizer" in the hypothetical sense. It mediates the struggles for power and allows peace to flourish and civilization to exist. These arguments are as old as civilization. You'd think we would learn but alas it's not going to happen.

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True; but individuals need not wait for society to "bestow" status upon them. They can buy it with that other type of "wealth" -- i.e., cash.

So, let's return to talking about who's got the gelt and whether we should let them keep it.

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I equate wealth with utility. Period. Clear enough for you?

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But, wealth is dependent on utility. Ask the Chief of the tribe.

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I think the problem of calculating how useful a person is in creating wealth is not an insurmountable problem and is not an occasion to despair and embrace fictitious paper schemes such as we have been engaging in with Greenspan and Bernake.

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I think we're thinking along similar lines.

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I meant is not dependent....

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The chinese philosopher Mo Zi would be your best friend. ;o)

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As Such Adam Smith might have written a prior book called "The Wealth of Nature" describing the wonder of the abundance of fresh air and oxygen around the planet.
Wealth if equated with utility is not equated with such social artifacts as money and Credit Default Swaps. Nature is full of Wealth.

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I guilty I guess. I'm defining wealth narrowly as token of power or privilege in the capitalists sense. Obviously, as you point, out the word is a metaphor for many things. I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be snarky either, it's just that this is a very serious topic for me.

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Presuming that humans have the same powers of intellection across societies, then, "wealth" equals the capital held by society -- that is, knowledge, infrastructure, machines, legally enforceable rules, and those societal values which increase efficiency (personal honesty, networking, absence of class, race, and gender bias).

How society would go about identifying and rewarding those who increase that capital -- that "wealth" -- is the subject of this thread -- and we haven't gotten very far.

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I might add that "wealth" is not created by laborers who, whether white, pink, blue, or brown collared, are accurately described as ants, drudges, drones, and sheep.

"Wealth" is created by human imagination ("inventors") whose products and procedures are deployed within society only insofar as some members of that society are willing to defer gratification ("savers").

Example: a new highway which adds to infrastructure. It is built not by the firm which bid on it or the workers who worked on it. It is built by the "savers" who paid for it.

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You make an assumption that those who labor are distinct from those who innovate and imagine.

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Yes, I do.

While the drones and drudges do, on occasion, produce on-the-job ideas that add to "wealth," these ideas are few and modest in effect. For purposes of discussion they can be disregarded.

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Well Ellen, I'd argue that ideas alone are worthless without the "drones and drudges" to carry them out.

Everyone has great ideas, they're like bodily orifices..

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I suppose the next thing you'll be telling us is that it's the bat that hit Barry Bonds' home runs.

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....and you'll be saying he could do it without the bat. He just needs to think of the concept of hitting home runs to be successful?

Yeah, whatev

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Ya know, maybe you're right. In which case, Bonds should have to give up 90% of his salary to the guy that "invented" baseball, or since he's dead, his heirs. After all, the only thing Bonds did was swing the bat.

Right?

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Those courageous and inventive individuals who thought of and developed the pharmaceuticals that Bonds used should get at least half of the credit. I salute them!

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Clever way to make the point, Hoppy. To claim that the "drones" don't create wealth, is to simply redefine the common meaning of "wealth". Maybe Ellen is treating us again to her reverse sarcasm. Leaving us to read her mind - that she is intending the opposite of what her words mean. Nice shirt.

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Thomas Jefferson believed that there was no Natural Right to possess ideas and inventions.

It has been pretended by some, (and in England especially) that inventors have a natural and exclusive right to their inventions, and not merely for their own lives, but inheritable to their heirs. But while it is a moot question whether the origin of any kind of property is derived from nature at all, it would be singular to admit a natural and even an hereditary right to inventors. It is agreed by those who have seriously considered the subject, that no individual has, of natural right, a separate property in an acre of land, for instance. By an universal law, indeed, whatever, whether fixed or movable, belongs to all men equally and in common, is the property for the moment of him who occupies it, but when he relinquishes the occupation, the property goes with it. Stable ownership is the gift of social law, and is given late in the progress of society. It' would be curious then, if an idea, the fugitive fermentation of an individual brain, could, of natural right, be claimed in exclusive and stable property. If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property. Society may give an exclusive right to the profits arising from them, as an encouragement to men to pursue ideas which may produce utility, but this may or may not be done, according to the will and convenience of the society, without claim or complaint from anybody.

Thomas, Jefferson, Letter to Isaac Mcpherson, Monticello, August 13, 1813

If IP is not a Natural Right the moment it has been shared with another, but is instead entirely derived as a gift from the state, then any claims of property made through the Fifth Amendments Takings clause, and the Fourteenth's Due Process clause, are only legitimate after they have been granted. Copyrights and Patents cannot legitimately be rescinded after the fact, as that would be ex post facto legislation, yet there is no impediment to Congressional Acts which would limit or even eliminate their being granted.

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"Example: a new highway which adds to infrastructure. It is built not by the firm which bid on it or the workers who worked on it. It is built by the 'savers' who paid for it."

-grins- That is so funny. First, because without the physical labor, the providers of which you denigrate, the highway would remain a figment of human imagination. Second, because nothing excludes those workers from the class 'savers' unless you insist that their wages be so low as to make saving impossible.

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Then, those workers become the "savers" I'm referring to.

It is possible for a single individual to occupy more than one societal or economic role, and identifying those roles and their attendant contributions is necessary before we can discuss what part of an economy's income that individual -- acting in any particular role -- "ought" to receive.

N.B. Ask the workers qua workers how long they'd be willing to work on the highway if savers weren't prepared to transfer their savings to them.

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Ask the workers qua workers how long they'd be willing to work on the highway if savers weren't prepared to transfer their savings to them.

Well, sheesh, Ellen. I'm not an economist; I write fiction. But it strikes me that a fair question to ask is this: Is it really true that to increase the taxes on investors will cause them to invest less? (True they won't have as much money to invest.) Isn't there something to be said that the very wealthiest investors regard it as a game, not as a way to score better-looking mistresses. If you increase their taxes, they will still play the game. They play because they like it just as I write because I like it.

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Yeah I'm not an economist either but it seems to me that an investor is someone who makes money by investing so if an investor is not investing he is probably eating into his principal.

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lol

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Ellen can faithfully be trusted to speak up for the poor weak idle gin drinking class every time.

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Ellen, how does the concept of legal versus actual ownership of intellectual property fit into your concept of wealth creation?

Ownership of wealth is a complex topic given the various terms in the various types of contracts for various goods and services.

Are you advocating a one-size fits all standard of wealth distribution and/or re-distribution?

Are those with the greatest leverage over intellectual property more often the creators or those who pay for or finance its development and production?

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I think you put the quotes around the wrong thing.

The essence of this discussion is What is "wealth".

As soon as you abstract value from labor, the rest of the argument is destroyed. The creation of value independent of labor and the subsequent market this facilitates eliminates any possible equal distribution of "wealth" based on the "simple" value of labor in said market. This enables intellectual labor whose direct value cannot be measured in a (output value)/(wo/man hour) ratio. When an engineer designs a part, who creates the most value - the assemblers who may build thousands or millions of that part, or the sole engineer?

You are then left with who controls the rules of the game - feudalism, capitalists, dictatorships, communists, fascists. These ideologies define who creates/controls the value system.

while others advocate state control of capital within the framework of a market economy.

Sounds like a good way to make the government ever more so subject to corruptive influence. After this current... crisis, I guess we shall see how it goes. Having just watched The Counterfeiters I cannot help but believe that the value of currency is but another method of control along side the military. It is a coercive power and regardless of who is in charge, the power that comes with it is absolute and therefore absolutely corrupting.

Looking at it from that direction, I guess we did elect a president who thought being a dictator was easier. Twice. Serves us right. Irony may not be able to encompass the enormity that this bait and switch has shown itself to be.

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The issue of Intellectual Utility is not a mystery. Its quantity can be calculated to the lasdt penny. It is a total bogus argument. But the guy who sits on his ass and moves money around the Market is not creating jack shit.

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Would you like to provide a demonstration of how we'd go about making this calculation?

It needn't be to the "last penny," either; I'm sure we could accept results calculated to the last several thousand dollars.

N.B. If you can't meet that test, then, your argument which bases itself upon value added devolves into an incoherent fantasy.

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The value of Intellectual Property is protected by patent. All you need is enforce patent law.

Ellen, on the bigger point, I have to say that you are not getting it. Sure there might be a guy who sits in his cave and dreams of an artifact (we now call a shovel) and makes drawings of it. He goes on to dream about bricks and mortar and ducts and wires and all sorts of nifty things in his cave. He is a GENIUS, no doubt about it. He can dream up the whole process of building a modern office tower all by himself back then in his cave say circa 500 BC. In fact there are cases such as the case of Leonardo de Vinci who had some drawings of a primitive helicopter way back when. But nothing will get done unless there is the manpower to PHYSICALLY CREATE IT.

You devalue manpower and are overawed with intellectual power. But they go hand in hand Ellen. We can rephrase Kant slightly and say "Intellect without manpower is impotent and manpower without intellect is blind".

It is true that intellectual power is a lot scarcer in this world than a strong back. It is also true that intellectual power has the potential of creating a lot more wealth than brute force. Therefore, I agree that the guy who invents in his mind all these things should be handsomely rewarded and protected by Intellectual property laws. But the guy who contributes to the realization of our homo intellecticus' scheme is not superfluous but essential in the entire process.

Are there more strong backs than bright brains: yes Does that mean that strong backs are just expendable "ants"? Gee that's so elitist! I see harmony where you see contempt. That seems to be the difference.

And mark this: it is homo intellecticus who cooks up these worthless Ponzi schemes to defraud the people in his wicked little brain. So while brain power has the potential to have a bigger effect than the shovel, the effect can be destructive and that's the downside to that particular species. The guy with the shovel could never create as much destruction as the crooks that thought up this latest economic crisis.

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Just to add to your point, Strat. Let's look multigenerational. Genius of Generation A invents a sewage system. GenA "Drones" build it. Genius of Generation B - who is saved from cholera by the sewage system - goes on to create something else fabulous. The same game runs for most basic services without which no one can get out of bed.

The drones I want to cut out of the loop sit fat & happy in the intermediary roles, or spinning nonsense money webs.

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That was my point exactly. Those who simply gamble using the stock market are not creating anything for society. They often buy in the morning, sell at noon, and by something else at coffee break. Their role in society is little different from those who jerk the levers of slots in Reno.

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Right.

But on a slightly different note: these worthless drones that are really leeches on society are venerated and envied in capitalist (and general) culture.
That might be just because we are all greedy by nature and dream of living off the fat of the land while others slave away. That is a distinctively ANTI social element in our natures that needs not to be reinforced and venerated but kept in check.

You can argue from an evolutionary point of view that the instinct for getting something for nothing has had survival value and as such should not be suppressed for the sake of the health of our species. (I don't make that argument but I think Spenserians and (ironically) fundamentalist Christians might).
But the irony of evolution is that we have evolved as a species to such an extent in terms of intellectual capacity and material abundance, that these primitive instincts are more of a hindrance than an asset in our lives. Our intellects have outpaced some of our more primitive hard wired genetic dispositions*. The struggle for survival (as say Hobbes describes) is a distant echo of our former selves as we sit here in cyberspace exchanging ideas.

We don't need our fangs anymore!

And with the advent of intelligent robotics, we might not need Joe the Plumber or Jim the ditch digger either anymore. Then what?

* that in itself poses a danger given that we live in an age where nuclear weapons and mass destruction in general is a technological reality.

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" The creation of value independent of labor and the subsequent market this facilitates eliminates any possible equal distribution of "wealth" based on the "simple" value of labor in said market."

This idea is key in your statement. "Cash" is a vehicle for wealth that can be manipulated.

The other idea you bring up that's important is intellectual capital. Modern society values intellectual capital far more than labor because labors are in over supply. This goes back to my premise that the elite would eliminate excess labor by eliminating people. This situation is evolving slowly with respect human lifetimes but rapidly with respect to history.

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To add, the over supply of laborers is party caused by the advent of new technologies created out of intellectual capital.

Ellen, as to who has the wealth and how much should they keep, well engineers and designers are decidedly not in the same league as millionaire money changers. In fact, I would argue that intelligence is actually moving into over supply with the advent of globalization. I think the system has become top heavy with the money changers holding most of the wealth. They have to give up some in order for the system to stabilize. I'm hardly as eloquent as others at expressing my thoughts, but hope this makes sense.

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Re: globalism
I found John Ralston Saul's The Collapse of Globalism and the Reinvention of the World most thought provoking and informative.

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The man with a shovel creates wealth.

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The man with the shovel performs work which he or someone with power over him uses to obtain an increase in wealth or power. The "powerful" exercises wealth and determines the utility of work.

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I don't disagree with the facts of what happens. I'm making a philosophical argument. The guy with the shovel LITERALLY creates wealth. His boss compensates him for that creation in wages. So far, there is no problem. The boss also creates wealth (i.e. utility) by making sure the entire construction project gets completed and the building is erected and so on. He deserves compensation too.

If what you are saying is that there is exploitation going on in that the boss does not pay the worker what his labor is worth, we have to get into discussions of "theory of value" which I don’t think is an insurmountable problem.
But I don't think you would disagree that both the ditch digger and his boss are creating wealth in a cooperative mutually agreed upon enterprise, would you? So that's not where the root problem lies. The root problem in my opinion lies in the money changers who are basically parasites on the system

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Since you and I are not discussing hunter gatherer societies, the utility of labor is not as important to me as the value of that labor placed upon it by those with high status or power in society i.e. the "wealthy", which is basically what you just said.
In early civilizations, the priests to superseded the rule of chief or king in determining the value of labor. Utility at that time was still a function of need. Now, utility is now long tied to the needs of people because technological changes disrupt the usual valuation schemes. The priests are now represented as the literati, those with knowledge, are in control of the valuation of labor and the determiners of utility that labor. This is important because the intellectual elite are no longer in touch with the basic human needs of laborers. Technology degrades the utility and thus the value of the labor people provide to the elite. That must be addressed directly. Either the elite acknowledge the humanity of the poor or we are headed to a very nasty place.


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Andrew,
I'd say the tableau of the ditch-digger and his boss is a useful scenario, but we need to expand upon it to reflect what's actually going on in our crazy "marketplace."
First, the ditch-digger does not have a shovel. He has a $50,000 backhoe which he purchased on credit with the basic idea that he could get a lot more digging done in a shorter period of time.
Second, he does not "work" for the boss. He is more likely than not an independent contractor with a 1099, and he assumes all the risk of operating a small business. No healthcare, no job security, no pension. His negative life savings are wrapped up in that backhoe, and a big fat insurance policy to cover any screw-ups on his part.
The boss is probably not "the boss". She is most likely a subcontractor herself. As a sub, she may have been hired to run this one aspect of the project, a footing for an office building, let's say. Her value in the project is as a manager and planner and salesperson, assuming the risk involved in making sure the job gets done to spec, and acting as a sort of rep for, in this case, maybe a concrete manufacturer. That manufacturer sets her prices, access to materials and does business with her as long as she keeps orders rolling in.
She is, however, no one's employee. She is "independent." She doesn't work for the general contractor, she doesn't work for Consolidated Concrete. She has worked hard to qualify for an enormous line of credit with which she pays the Ditch-Digger and everyone else she has contracted to set this footing. Chances are she may have leveraged her car or house to qualify for this credit line. Her business owns little in terms of assets save for a closely guarded rolodex but she pays for a huge insurance policy to cover the risk of doing the job. Again, she is responsible for all the expenses of running a small business, just like Ditch Guy, but has very little to show for it.
Meanwhile, this scene plays out ad infinitum across the construction site, into offices and schoolyards and battlegrounds. The past 20 years has made the old capitalism quaint. All the workers who may have been unionized a generation ago have been made into little tiny capitalists.
We work for ourselves and are beholden to insurers and usurers to pay for it. Meanwhile the companies that used to actually make and do things are just sort of big risk-averse paper-wielding money collectors.
And we're all running around fighting over the crumbs that occasionally fall from the big muffin that is American Capital.
What flavor of Muffin, you ask? Why it is a Financialization-Insurance-Healthcare-Nut Muffin.
It seems to me that a radical shift in our distribution of wealth would be a re-distribution of Risk and Reward!

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Primo comment. You inject reality into this thread. Especially this:

The past 20 years has made the old capitalism quaint. All the workers who may have been unionized a generation ago have been made into little tiny capitalists.

What's interesting in this regard is China, and where they might be going as to this whole thing. They've got a huge old-style labor force cranking out all that stuff on those factory lines right now, but at the same time they seem to selling them on the "be your own boss" thing with the the "to get rich is glorious" thing.

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This is Jacob Hacker's argument--well made--in his book The Great Risk Shift, which I have tried to draw greater attention to at this site. Yours is one of the more richly descriptive short-version renderings of it I have come across.

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Another side of that is that it is part of many human's nature not to like having big corporations or big governments or big unions, for that matter, in control of their lives and choices.

What popped into my mind is all the screeds I see on "the big corporate media," and how small bloggers are supposedly the antidote. That argument often has a lot more in common with what's beneath "Joe The Plumber's general beef and beliefs than might first appear.

Likewise, one of the classics of the "American Dream" includes owning a small piece of land to live on so that one is not subject to the power of a landlord. (Sort of anti-ruling-class capitalism?) Which brings us to predatory mortgages... :-)

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P.S. Perhaps "anti-elite capitalism" would have been a better choice of words on my part than "anti ruling class."

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I do not disagree with any of the facts you present. But it is useful when dealing with basic concepts to keep it simple. I could have said that the ditch digger is also a money lender on the side and is digging the ditch as a nifty way to both keep in shape and earn a little extra money outside of his money lending business. But why would we want to complicate the picture at this point? Someone said you are injecting reality in my simple little harmonious picture, and that’s true, but is it helpful in our discussion of the fundamentals or is it a muddying of the waters for no particularly good reason? I wonder.

I am concerned with fundamental relationships that lie at the root of the creation of human wealth (which I equate with utility).
The messy details can be discussed separately. Sure the ditch digger can be a little capitalist with his own sophisticated earth moving equipment and so on and so forth. But let's keep it simple: the division of those who actually do the physical labor to produce the wealth and those who are part of the superstructure that guide the productive process towards maximum effect. Both these elements are productive elements in the creation of social wealth. That's all I'm saying.

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In reply to:
"Someone said you are injecting reality in my simple little harmonious picture, and that’s true, but is it helpful in our discussion of the fundamentals or is it a muddying of the waters for no particularly good reason?"
Please pardon my turbidity. I feel that our contemporary economic universe is so wacked out that poor Marx might be a bit confused stepping out of his time machine.
My point, simply, is that there really are not many ditch-diggers left. There are no more crews of unskilled shovel-slingers along our nation's highways. Even the construction or landscaping or housekeeping jobs which employ our most underpaid workers are highly mechanized, so you don't get the huge aggregations of workers on jobsites or factory floors that may have existed in previous decades. People don't work together as much; it's more like workers are competing with each other.
Put another way perhaps, it's a lot harder to organize when you clean houses or sit in the cab of a backhoe by yourself all day.
And because of this general disorganization among these millions of makers and do-ers, middlemen make a killing. My point in laying out the scenario of the indebted machine operator subbed out by the over-leveraged contractor is that the elephant in the room is CREDIT. The hyper-financialization of our economy has sold everybody on the idea that we are all entrepreneurs when in fact we are actually suckers.
Instead of getting paid to wield a Company Shovel, our Ditch-Digger gets the same wage but takes on ridiculous debt and risk in order for that stupid ditch to get dug. Therefore a large portion of the value and wealth of his industry goes to lenders and insurers who basically speculate at a profit on all of our real work.
That is a unique facet of our moment in history. Each piece of tangible wealth in our economy comes to you encrusted in the barnacles of "innovative financial instruments."

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I am concerned with fundamental relationships that lie at the root of the creation of human wealth (which I equate with utility).

I think your problem may be that you are looking for an absolute and I think there is none. "Wealth" is nothing but what people consider valuable at the time.

It can be simplified, and has been:
Value is created by
a willing buyer and a willing seller, neither being under any compulsion to buy or to sell and both having reasonable knowledge of relevant facts.

That includes labor. Labor is "sold" or traded ever since we started societies. Value or "wealth" changes constantly, it's in the eye of the beholder.

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Well, the redistribution can't come too soon for me. I've been paying the bills that rich p[eople should have been paying for a long time. Now they can step up to the plate, crying, kicking, and screaming to be sure. Ask me if I care.

Now -- about that $250,000 thing. Just because your W-2 reads $250,000 doesn't mean you're going to get socked immediately. Don't you remember what your tax return looks like? It gets whittled down in several ways. First of all, if you're pulling down the big bucks you better be putting the max into your 401K. Then you'd better cut loose with some nice donations on schedule A...how about the humane society? Battered womens shelter? Local food bank? You're not missing any meals, try to remember those who do.

Then, of course, there's personal exemptions...only then do you arrive at your TAXABLE income, which will be less than $250,000. See how easy that was? of course, you're going to get hit with the Alternative Minimum tax, but don't blame that on us. That's a cute little republican idea called "revenue enhancement", with more frills added by Bush '41 who said "Read My Lips!! No New Taxes!!"

Of course, he was lying, like all republicans do.

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Seems to me tht back in the 90s, my hard work enabled a fairly decent lifestyle in which I was able to afford to put a substancial amount away for retirement and college, afford to eat out occasionally, and have a day off or two a week. Now I work longer and harder, have nothing leftover to save, and even the funds I did manage to save have disappeared into the black hole that is wall street.

Wealth re-distribution? I'd say there has been massive wealth re-distribution. My paltry, modest amount of wealth into the pockets of those that have too much.

Enough, already! Historically, Americans looked down on massive wealth as a society because it tended to mean ill-gotten gains at the expense of others. I'm for taxing it away as it was back before Kennedy gave the wealthy a break.

90% on anything over 5 million, and that will solve all the countries problems. In a heartbeat.

Yeah, I'm a socialist and proud of it. I am also an American, and I'm with Joe Biden. Let these bastards who have run this country into the ground step up and show their patriotism.

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Alas, the 90% tax rate (which was in place for a while; anyone here remember the 1950s?) tends to produce more tax fraud than tax receipts.

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I agree. And it has nothing to do with trickle down, either, which I don't believe.

To want that is like being penny-wise and pound foolish. 90% is irrational revenge economics, it gets all kinds of bad results those desirous of it didn't intend, and the government doesn't even get the money they intended to get out of it, either.

The smartest way is not to go over something like 50% or perhaps 60%, because you're going to get vast diminishing returns of all kinds of avoidance at something like 90%, avoidance of great magnitude. With 90%, you also get into the problems of Soviet type of general attitudes towards wanting to do something innovative or something for society itself. With 90%, you have flight from a country of ideas, intellectual property, capital and even people with special skills (an example: otherwise liberal-minded entertainers and are notorious for this. But think also of someone like a surgeon who creates a new and very desirable procedure. There is not much incentive to stay in the operating room all day unless the off hours are somehow cushy, either by high income, or by being elevated to preferential status in a totalitarian society.)

bwakfat says the 90's were good. Well, the top Clinton administration income tax rate was finely calculated to maximize returns from upper income levels without the other depressant effects. Wasn't it 39%?

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39.6%, to be exact. (Federal rate, anyway. I lived in Calif at the time and paid a pretty steep state marginal tax as well. Add in Schedule SE FICA tax for consulting work, and even well below the the 39.6% Federal rate I was paying 40% on marginal dollars in 1993. Once one maxes out the FICA tax, though, the marginal rate drops quite a bit—not that I had any hope of doing that in 1993.)

One good thing, in my opinion anyway, about the capital gains and dividend tax cuts was making the two rates the same. The precise rate for these "non-income" taxes is less important than keeping them from diverging wildly, as they had in the early 1990s. When dividends are taxed at high rates while capital gains are taxed at low rates, stockholders have incentive to get management to retain cash and use it to buy back stock (sometimes referred to as "greenmail") so that they can convert what would have been dividend income into capital gains, and thus receive favorable tax treatment. This is ultimately a bad thing (good in the short term for those who sell into the buybacks, bad in the long term for the company and the shareholders).

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One good thing, in my opinion anyway, about the capital gains and dividend tax cuts was making the two rates the same. The precise rate for these "non-income" taxes is less important than keeping them from diverging wildly

Also, divergence in rates insures work for tax lawyers and accountant for the rich, to figure a way to shift their money into wherever it is taxed lower. I.E., create a corporation to put it into, or take it out of a corporation and make it personal income, whichever has the more beneficial rate. Of course, sometimes, but not always, Congress enacts such as incentives because they want the rich to shift their money in a certain direction. Most often I haven't seen it work out as intended, though.

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Let me also add: an income tax with a high marginal rate (like 90%) is probably—I have no historical examples to provide—less effective than a graduated net worth tax would be, even with substantially lower marginal rates. Such a tax is, in effect, a "dynasty tax": those who control large family fortunes will be compelled to put them to large productive work to maintain them. Leaving them idle/unproductive will result in the tax eroding them away, moving the net-worth into other, presumably more-productive hands.

So, I believe you should work for a "net worth tax" rather than an "income tax". (But beware loopholes in defining "net worth".)

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"A full throttled socialist meritocracy would DISTRIBUTE wealth according to how much a person contributes to THE PRODUCTION OF REAL WEALTH"

Egads. It's anti-labor party propaganda straight out of early 19th century Harvard. Let me scramble to figure out where my bootstraps went now.

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The thing about the $250,000 figure is that its the bottom of where the tax increase starts; being left out is that its also a tax increase for Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and Dick Cheney and the ex head of EXXON Lee Raymond and his $400 million golden parachute......plus the millions he made as head of EXXON.

HARUMPH! the only parachute I ever received was white, not gold.

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Yours was a matter of life or death. Theirs isn't. Which is "worth" more?

Our whole value system is pretty messed up. The fact is, folks don't honor labor. "Idea" people are ridiculously overvalued, (by themselves, mostly).

Oh well, they say the bigger they are the harder they fall. I'd think the gold might weigh them down a tad. Wealth being such a burden, it's time the ultra wealthy were relieved of a small bit of it. It would mean life or death to some. It won't make much difference to them.

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I can quibble over that: Those who have great ideas, should be amply rewarded, just as those who bring the ideas to fruition should be rewarded. It is those who only shuffle buy and sell orders that I have major problems with. They deserve to be paid wages just as other laborers are.

In my opinion there are two paths we need to follow, as best we can. One is assuring that those who contribute to generating wealth should all be rewarded accordingly. The other is that our country needs to always have a distribution of money that keeps all of us living useful lives with enough money left over to buy the products that the creators of wealth have made available. Without that second thing, the wealth created isn't wealth, just things with little value. Socialism, in the highly diluted form that we are really discussing should be used to be sure that we all do have the money to be the customers that in the end are responsible for wealth being wealth.

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Sure, the folks that have the "great ideas" SHOULD be amply rewarded, just as those that make those ideas a reality should be.

Ask this guy 'bout that.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95545761

I don't disagree with what you say, I'm just scratching my head trying to figure out how you got that out of my comment. It ain't generally the idea makers that are under compensated, is it.

There's this little thing called "reality...."

=D

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I was reacting to this, ""Idea" people are ridiculously overvalued, (by themselves, mostly)." I see idea people as including engineers, one of which I was, when working, and rarely were my peers anywhere near overvalued. When I retired most of us idea people were paid less than the people we supervised, who had an effective union. I didn't mean to imply that you were on the wrong side of the issue, just that not all idea people are overvalued.

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What is missing from your conception is that Big Idea People (BIP) can also cause Big Fuck Ups (BFU) in the world. Hitler had Big Ideas. In and of themseleves Big Ideas can be good or bad for society. We can all agree that they are generally MORE CONSEQUENTIAL (at least potentially so) than little ideas.

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I think there is sublime irony in the top 1% getting Joe the Plumber's Assistant and other 'useful idiots' to fight against the greatest inequality in wealth concentration since teh Gilded Age. This is part of the systematic propagandization we've been subjected to in this country since the Railroad Age that venerates the capitalist and denigrates the collective of workers, aka unions. Of course, Stalin was bad, however, it should be apparent that anti-communist frenzies were, and are, largely a tool of self-protection by the capitalists. Today, we see this attitude in our govt's official response to Bolivia, Venezuela and other Central American countries who have the temerity to buck the American capitalist system.

Unionization is the natural balance to the capitalist management class, and by 'drowning it in the bathtub,' the capitalist class has freed itself to kill the golden goose with its own excesses.

Capitalism favors expensive solutions, which are then used to justify capitalism. It is a feature of capitalism that capital and management are omnipotent, while labor is disposable. This imbalance has led to the flight of our manufacturing base in this country, while allowing management and capital to maintain their own excesses and inefficiencies.

I'd like to hear some of the arguments upthread applied to the food industry, and how it has evolved, or rather, devolved in this country according to the dictates of capital.

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Ellen, I was at a tool & die company this week and they had in their lobby an interesting metal jigsaw puzzle. It was interesting in that after I fit all the pieces together, there was still one piece left over and a void yet in the puzzle that did not fit with the left over piece. They had developed a puzzle that could be fit together hundreds of different ways, but only one solution actually worked as the designer had designed it. As I read your post, it reminds me that puzzle.

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Jesus Christ, I knew I should have taken some economics courses in college! You guys are way over my head. A thousand times ouch!

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Whew...anybody got some Yen Koans? I need a fix.

Georges Bataille - theory of expenditure.

All earthly organisms produce more than they consume (energy). That part that cannot be used for growth becomes "the accursed share" - destined for waste - luxury or war.

Take those damned Birds of Paradise. All that evolutionary energy and growth in order to grow feathers that will get you a date. Oh, yes, we like to argue that nature's genuis invented this to insure the species is strong and able. Strong and able for what? To be able to grow feathers that wil get you laid, that's what!

And to the human; we have all these folks who spend more on their backyard landscaping projects - waterfalls, faux mountain ranges and might lakes full of hundred dollar carps - than the GDP of a small Pacific island. And they don't even have to file EIRs.

The accursed share. Waste. And talk about commodity fetishism, I'm really pissed that I won't get my 52" plasmodic tell-us-vision set this year.

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Obama socialism? It seems to me that the government nationalizing everything these days is the Bush/Paulson government. ie, the current Republican gang, er, party. Obama isn't the president yet.

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Ah, but he soon will be.

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