« Cheney Rerouted the In- and Out-Boxes of White House Power | Home | Why Does The Right Call Barack "Barry"? »
Elections Matter
What do we think about the FBI investigating Acorn?
What do we think about the lawsuits in Ohio that aim to bar voters from the polls?
What do we think about the robo-calls ripping through the key battleground states with the transparent purpose of discouraging voters from going to the polls?
Isn't there a better way to run a democracy in the most widely and deeply informed large society in the world?
Advertisement
Of course there are better ways to run a democracy. The problem is that in order to get to that democracy, we have to play by the rules of this democracy. And the rules of this democracy will never let that democracy come into being.
October 16, 2008 9:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know that I'd call our country widely informed, when half of the population self-limit their source of information (if they pay attention at all) to right-wing extremist voices like Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, etc. They're not widely informed, if you could call them informed at all. That same population is the target demo for the scare tactics, so they're already preprogrammed to react to it.
As far as the Acorn investigation, that's abuse of power, and it's why Congress should have impeached years ago.
October 16, 2008 9:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
"I don't know that I'd call our country widely informed, when half of the population ..."
Me either. The notion the the US has an informed citizenry is the biggest, fattest myth ever. For irrefutable proof one needs to look no further than the state of our country on all fronts.
The question this raises is what is the source of the information that "informs" (or misinforms) us? You named FOX, but left out the rest of the MSM. I find CNN and some of the others even more dangerous than FOX, because at least with FOX, what you see is what you get (at least FOX doesn't even bother to try to hide it's corporate agenda on key issues behind a little balanced and fact-based coverage of the less important issues)
October 17, 2008 11:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Not sure what you mean by a "large" society, Reed--but I don't think I agree that the US is "the most widely and deeply informed" large society in the world, if you look at percentages of a society's population.
Shockingly high percentages of our fellow citizens are poorly informed, have a dismal understanding of how our government functions and is supposed to function, and have a deeply impoverished concept of what citizenship entails.
Some consider statements such as this snooty but there is plenty of solid evidence to establish their truth. Unfortunately.
It is only because of the above that we find ourselves in the situation we are currently in.
We as citizens have all the tools we need to put in power a government which is reasonably honest and which is, not at all moments, but over time accountable to the people it is supposed to serve. Enough of us have simply checked out, or don't use them, to let our democracy fall into a state of disrepair.
We can hope that the people who run political campaigns fix things but I think that is an unlikely place to look to for change. A great many of them would tell you that they don't have the luxury of running for office with the citizenry they might ideally like to have but must campaign for office with the citizenry we actually have.
The good news is that not only can it change for the better, but it has done so in our history for intervals, and it will do so again if and when enough of our fellow citizens make the commitment to pay more attention and make far better use of the freedoms, powers and opportunities available to us to help us get ourselves a halfway decent government.
October 16, 2008 9:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
American Dreamer says;
"Not sure what you mean by a "large" society, Reed--but I don't think I agree that the US is "the most widely and deeply informed" large society in the world, if you look at percentages of a society's population.
Shockingly high percentages of our fellow citizens are poorly informed, have a dismal understanding of how our government functions and is supposed to function, and have a deeply impoverished concept of what citizenship entails."
I couldn't agree more, its the HL Mencken thing.
Tens of millions of Americans are politically unsophisticated, easily led, and quite shallow. This is why demagogues like Sean Hannity, Limbaugh and that gang can get such high ratings.
Oh, did I mention some of the right wing websites?
Too many people are just too lazy to think.
People who exist in a world of educated, well informed people might tend to see themselves and their peers as representative of the general public, and THAT, is the Davoid Broder thing.
October 17, 2008 9:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
After the 2000 fiasco , I believe someone from an emerging democracy jokingly suggest that we have the U.N. monitor our elections. I know Americans will stomp their feet and call it absurd but the more I learn the more I am taking this idea seriously.
October 16, 2008 9:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
ACORN is under investigation by state officials in a dozen states at the moment -- not just the FBI. the infamous Dallas Cowboy lineup is an indicator that something very strange is going on here. If they haven't done anything wrong -- they have nothing to fear from any investigation.
October 16, 2008 9:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bullshit. There is plenty to fear from any investigation even if you haven't done anything wrong. Society judges our moral infractions not just our legal infractions. And more and more, society is willing to judge made up infractions as much as real ones.
October 16, 2008 10:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Reece, we've got people on tape confessing they registered many times, because the ACORN employees told them they get paid for the numbers they turn in. If you don't think that needs to be investigated, then you are a blind partisan ideolog and not a believer in real democracy.
October 17, 2008 8:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
again: voter registration fraud IS NOT voting fraud.
nobody is denying that registration collectors turn in false registrations. this is a fraud against acorn, not against the electoral process.
this sort of thing HAS been investigated and time and time again it has been shown that there is no evidence of any widespread or systematic/coordinated effort to perpetrate voting fraud. dead people and fictional characters and duplicates of eligible voters on the voting rolls is not the same thing as dead people and fictional characters and duplicates of eligible voters actually casting ballots (except in isolated instances of inconsequential frequency).
where there IS ample evidence of a widespread and systematic/coordinated effort is in the republican party and their use of the DOJ/FBI to trot this shit out every two years as part of their efforts to smear democrats and prevent people from voting.
fraud committed against acorn absolutely ought to be investigated. but it ought to be investigated for what it is: fraud against acorn. and it ought to be investigated PROPERLY which means handling it in way that does not interfere with the free and fair elections. which means absent any evidence that the dallas cowboys' starting lineup intends to cast fraudulent ballots in las vegas on election day, the FBI and DOJ ought not be anonymously placing new stories three weeks before an election. THAT is the kind of shit that really needs investigating because it is very plain what the intent of that kind of behavior is: partisan political attempts to influence an election.
October 17, 2008 9:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
If someone working for ACORN turns in bad registrations, that is fraud against ACORN. But if ACORN has made an attempt to flag those registrations, which still must by law be submitted to the registrar, they should be seen as good guys here.
What's important to note is that submitting false registrations is not voter fraud. If someone filled out a registration a dozen times, that person still can only vote once. If I'm out to commit fraud, I can vote more easily as my neighbor than as Mickey Mouse or Tony Romo.
The White House, in coordination with the RNC, pushed by the McCain camp and amplified by right wing yakkers, is determined to make a show of this up to election day, regardless what happens after that.
October 17, 2008 9:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Acorn pays by the hour and not by the registration, so these so-called whistle-blowers are simply looking for their fifteen minutes of fame. Talking points do not indicate guilt and our system still has a presumption of innocence, despite what the media and neocons might say.
October 17, 2008 10:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Doesn't it make you wonder how many of these "fraudulent registrations" might have been done by Republican provocateurs in order to spark an investigation?
October 17, 2008 10:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Just like "Joe the Plumber" is a regular small business owner. They must think we are all idiots.
October 17, 2008 11:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
They do. They are wrong.
October 17, 2008 1:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey pinhead - don't you know there's a difference between registering and the actual casting of a vote? You're either deliberately obtuse or incredibly dim.
October 17, 2008 11:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Brook,
when a local Republican fraudently registers a few voters, is the RNC engaging in massive voter fraud?
October 17, 2008 12:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
yes, they are, and if the RNC has an official policy of fraud spread out over several states, then the entire RNC should be investigated from top to bottom and people thrown in jail. that's how you keep clean elections.
October 17, 2008 4:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
I haven't noticed any Democratic Congress* going out of its way to make voting less difficult for citizens by, for example --
Declaring election day a national holiday or requiring and funding a reasonable number of properly furnished polling places in every district.
More people are discouraged from voting by workplace demands and by polling place inconveniences and delays than by Republican Party nastiness.
* As a demonstration of its disinclination, see, Rep. Rush Holt's "Federal Funding for Voting System Changes" bill which failed 239-178 (4/15/2008)
October 16, 2008 10:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ellen
Why do you think both parties, resist enacting the idea of a national holiday or more polling places?
October 16, 2008 10:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Why do you think both parties, resist enacting the idea of a national holiday or more polling places?"
I'll take a crack at this:
I don't know. Hard question because Bill Clinton rushed the citizenship of millions--many who probably didn't have adequate time or education to understand Democratic values or what they were voting for--and practically drove them to the polls before one of his elections. (he didn't bother with the required criminal background checks, either) So some candidates will do anything to get more people to vote.
Normally though, citizens who take the time to assess candidates and then vote are also the ones who tend to pay some attention to what Congress and the president are doing once in office. I'm certain that some in government would prefer that fewer citizens pay attention. And the media helps with this as it seems many who do vote just check the box in the booth, then leave it to the punditocracy, religious leaders or someone else to tell them what to think about the how their candidate is doing his or her job.
It seems certain that when citizens can't find time time to evaluate candidates and get to the polls to vote, they are not paying as much attention to what is happening in government. And when enough citizens aren't paying attention, those who take office don't have to worry about being accountable to the larger public.
I guess the greater the voter apathy and confusion, the greater the free-for-all any untrustworthy members of Congress or the executive branch can have with all that tax money, those civil rights, and the military, etc.
Obama has shown that one way for an outsider candidate to have a chance of winning against established, status quo candidate who already has a loyal constituency (e.g. Hillary) is to create new voters from the large pool who would otherwise not have voted. I like his choice here and think that was a great, respectable strategy.
Do the newly inspired voters stop paying attention after they vote? Easily led by the corporate media? It will be interesting to find out.
October 17, 2008 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
...and who do you think are causing those polling place inconveniences and workplace demands?
October 16, 2008 11:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
. . . and that's why prophylactic laws should be enacted -- eh?
October 17, 2008 12:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Whoa everybody. Every state I have looked at gives individuals the right to take time off from work to vote. Many states mandate that time off to vote is paid. Check your state's rules.
I know in Missouri, you can have up to 3 hours to vote on election day if you request it in advance, but your employer gets to specify which 3 hours. That's pretty good. It doesn't have to be a problem. It doesn't have to be confrontational. Just talk to your boss.
Other states have similar rules, often without that degree of precision. Again, check your state's rules.
October 16, 2008 11:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
I know in Missouri . . . .
What are a Missouri voter's rights if their workday ends at 5:00 p.m. and the polls in their district are open until 8:00 p.m.?
I know almost nothing about these laws but it is my impression that they apply to very workers. Here's a list of worker-voter rights as appearing in the applicable state statutes (accuracy unknown).
October 17, 2008 12:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
That was supposed to be "very few workers," and here's the repaired link.
October 17, 2008 12:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Polls in Missouri are open until 7 pm and not later unless there is a court order requiring that the polls stay open past 7. That actually happens quite regularly in St. Louis.
If your normal day ends 3 hours before the polls close, there isn't really a problem is there? I don't understand what you think is going to happen. Somehow someone who gets off at 4 needs an extra three hours to get to the polls? Doesn't make sense to me.
October 17, 2008 7:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
And why do you think polling hours are "quite regularly" extended* in St. Louis?
Why do I get the impression that you're one of those guys who take an extended lunch and wander into your upscale neighborhood polling place around 2:00 p.m.?
* These extensions wouldn't be factored into the Missouri statute's three hour window, would they?
October 17, 2008 8:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
There is if voting machines have been removed from your precinct/city/area in order to create a bottleneck, as they were in Ohio in the Columbus area........ Do you think that "it's not a problem" when you're made aware that people waited past midnight to vote in Columbus (6-7 hour waits) ?
October 17, 2008 10:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Workers also have the right to join and form unions without reprisals, but anyone with half a lick of sense knows that the worker that is foolish enough to openly advocate a union let alone join or organize one is more than likely going to be immediately fired. So let's get real shall we?
Nobody, and I mean no one at all, uses the legal provision to go vote during work and get paid for it. It is a meaningless law. Utterly meaningless. In Missouri and every other state with such a law.
October 17, 2008 2:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, oleeb, let's get real. Any employer who does not allow workers to vote is breaking the law. It's not the employer's fault if you foolishly choose to follow their preference rather than the law. These laws are often specifically written to allow voters to sue for wrongful termination if the employer retaliates or violates the law. There is no reason to not use it.
October 17, 2008 7:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Reece!
Your naivety is astounding.
October 17, 2008 8:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
This isn't naievete, Ellen. It's a refusal to be cowed.
October 17, 2008 7:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Re the Democrats in Congress, if Obama wins, the excuses will have been removed. I'm sick and tired of living in a Banana F'ing Republic when it comes to elections and I for one expect action from the Democrats in the next Congress. I know they'll have a full plate but they have to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. That's why they have Committees, for heaven's sake. This goes for making it easier for people to vote and for restoring integrity to our election systems.
I haven't seen attempts to determine how many people do not vote because they are convinced that the system is rigged and/or do not believe their vote will be correctly counted. I'm not sure if that is an answerable question.
If in fact there has been Republican nastiness in hacking vote counts in recent elections--and this has not been proven, although the circumstantial evidence suggests it as a strong possibility--then this excuse for voting, however unjustifiable I think it is and others may as well, is indeed partly attributable to the consequences of Republican nastiness.
Again, that is not a legit excuse to not vote IMO. But there is also no excuse for having the elections mess we have, where it is not unreasonable, depending on where one lives, to have less than 100% confidence one's vote will be counted, and counted correctly.
After having read Loser Take All, I'm not at all convinced that Rush Holt has it right when it comes to how to deal with the great vulnerability of the systems in place in many states and localities to electronic hacking of results. This can come about through the use of electronic voting machines but also thru opscan devices counting or recounting hard-copy ballots, as I understand it. This all according to the folks who know the technology and do the technology for a living. It would good to have Rush back at the cafe to field questions after the elections.
The argument in Loser Take All is to go back to paper ballots (they don't say this but there may be a continuing need for electronic voting options with a paper trail to help ensure people with disabilities and others with special needs are able to exercise their right to vote)--that any other approach will not get it done. Not having heard the best counter-arguments, I'm not yet convinced on that point. But the book makes a good case for that argument, one that it seems to me needs to be examined closely and publicly.
I think Holt's heart is definitely in the right place and it sounds as though he's willing to push hard for federal funds to help do what is necessary. But this issue desperately needs well-publicized Congressional hearings and public discussion, starting next year.
Regardless of whether there turn out to be huge problems on Election Day and beyond next month. We're just dodging bullets at this point, inviting disaster.
October 17, 2008 9:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
American Dreamer says:
"Re the Democrats in Congress, if Obama wins..."
If Obama wins, it may be the Republican party's worse nightmare, not becasue they lost the White House, but because it may be the start of the death knoll for racism.
October 17, 2008 9:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Election day should be a national holiday -- I think you are on the right track Elen with the voter registration day. But why not make election day a national holiday (except those working in the election system have to work of course,) *and* allow voters to register on that day as well as vote -- same day registration?
I think that would increase voting quite a bit. I am guessing it would make for more Dems? (Just an IT guy here,) if so, the GOP will try to stop it of course.
October 17, 2008 12:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
The ACORN thing scares me. It's something that the White House can give false legitimacy by putting the weight of the FBI behind it. Because ACORN is involved in community organizing and helping, primarily, African Americans (ACORN has had a big presence in post-Katrina New Orleans) it can be used to attack Obama on two fronts.
As I understand it, ACORN hires people to register voters. Some of those registrations are invariably faked, maybe by the employee, maybe by the person "registering." By law, ACORN has to submit eve