McCain Cracks Important Working Class Constituency
That would be guys like this who can afford to buy businesses that stand to earn over $250,000 annually, but decline to do so because they would face a higher marginal tax rate and not be compelled to provide their employees with health insurance. Because they'd rather be doing this.
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Ooooohhhhh! That's nasty!
October 15, 2008 11:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
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March 21, 2011 8:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh my fucking god -- PLEASE! -- destroy that photo!
Like NOW!
Moments ago!
Even earlier than that!
Won't somebody think of the children!??!!
The horror.
the horror.
October 15, 2008 11:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Warning, rant on the plumbing profession with stereotypes included:
Hey, I'd be happy to deal with crack-showing pants if the guy would only clean up after himself for the exorbitant fee (usually demanded in cash in NYC) and not treat me like I'm the maid. I'd even put up with the part where I get treated like I'm a stupid idiot and am so lucky to have him in my house 2 hours late for the apoointment.
I feel better now. And yes, rationally, I do know not all plumbers are bad people.
October 15, 2008 11:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, lighten up.
No one has a better sense of humor than plumbers. They need it
IOW, cut the crrrap.
October 15, 2008 11:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've got the prince of plumbers. Absolutely super. No he's not the one in the picture. If he wore a white shirt and tie on his jobs it wouldn't be out of character. And I'm not telling who he is. He's hard enough to get as it is.
October 16, 2008 8:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Amen. This guy's only importance to McCain was that he made a point but Obama made his own points by showing that this guy was just one of those who happened to hit the fence at a quater of a million.
I saw thru it. Just a way to make a wedge. McCain knew he couldn't help him any better.
Besides Obama said and proved there would be no fine, that there would be a tax exemption for providing insurance, and he would make sure his family had healthcare. McCain just used him but never said how he would help him with specifics.
Better buy it now, that quater million business won't be touched at that price next year. If McCain is elected maybe it won't even exist.
October 15, 2008 11:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Please note the value of a $250,000 a year business is much more than $250,000. It's the present value of an annual income stream of $250,000 (after tax) for the life of the business. And by the way, the build-up of value in the firm -- the capital gain -- is not taxed until the firm is sold, and then at a preferential rate. If the business gets much bigger and is passed on to heirs, it gets no capital gains tax and preferential treatment under the estate tax as well.
Workers often look forward to being their own boss, owning a business. A progressive tax system makes it easier to get there. The problem is on the way up, not the higher tax rate if you get on the higher plateau.
One of the biggest obstacles is the unavailability of group insurance, to the owner or the employees, at reasonable rates. Obama's plan provides a group option at no cost to the business.
Most small business people would be crazy not to support this.
October 16, 2008 8:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
AACk! OMG!!
The horror. *flailing around for my eye wash*
Lord Rotwang, I will hold you responsible when I get nightmares tonight.
October 15, 2008 11:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
MY EYES! MY EYES!
October 15, 2008 11:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
I found it interesting that the CNN focus group of undecided voters did not like McCain playing the Joe the Plumber story and they didn't like Obama addressing it on the rebound either. They dialed down during it and the anchor questioned them directly afterward about that as it was very noticeable. One woman said that it was because she was sick of such generalities, she needed specifics. It's a pretty traditonal way for candidates to address specifics, by offering an example of one person, so I didn't get how her answer applied and what she meant. Then the anchor moved on so we got no further reasons. But it was still interesting overall that for whatever reason, they didn't like it, that surprised me.
October 15, 2008 11:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well Joe the Plumber (earning $250K+ a year) is specific enough if you are Joe the Plumber. But how many people out there are in Joe the Plumber's position? I venture to say, not many. So to the Average American (AA) it looks like a waste of time debating the plight of Joe and so s/he is irritated and rightly so.
October 16, 2008 2:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Um, could be the name he picked? Joe? As in Joe six-pack?
Can you say pander? It blew up in McCains face rather badly.
October 15, 2008 11:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Joe the Plumber needs to kick coin slot dryness to the curb:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCF8ZOYVXF8
October 15, 2008 11:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
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December 16, 2010 6:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
Jooooooe the Plumber!!!
Can he fix it?
Jooooooe the Plumber!!!
NO WE CAN'T!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZnYzD-LnSU
October 15, 2008 11:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain sewed up the important Plumbers & Parents-of-Autistic-Children voting blocs.
Tomorrow he's going to focus on Typesetters and People-with-lockjaw blocs.
He's going to do this, bloc by bloc, until he has this thing won. In 2076.
October 16, 2008 12:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Great shot... I think Obama could have looked at McCain and said if Joe the Plumber is making more than a quarter of a million a year, that puts him in the top 5% of the tax bracket then yes his taxes will go up, but he will get tax credits, or tax reduction when he hires new employees.etc...
October 16, 2008 12:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bob Sheifer was the best moderator by far, but McCain did have his thinking cap on too. Remember when Sheifer began a new series of questions and started by saying something like, “let’s talk about climate control.” McCain having just showed up Obama by demonstrating he was really, really handy with a pipe wrench knew right away that Sheifer must be trying to trick him with a tougher question about heating and air conditioning.
McCain, shaking his head and pointing in Moderator Sheifer’s direction interrupted saying, “you mean climate change.” Yes, that was the turning point moment the nation has been waiting for the last 2 years to finally hear.
Now we know which of the two candidates to elect as our next President of the United States and which one is the guy to get on that leaky basement pipe and clean the furnace filter before winter.
Yes, sorry to say that because of Sheifer’s misspeak, I will probably have to pass on calling Joe the Plumber. You betcha instead, I’ll be telling all my friends to call John McCain, he feels our pain of having a wet basement and proved he understands our HVAC too!
October 16, 2008 6:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, I get the joke and I question why it is funny for college-educated masters of the universe to make fun of people who work with their hands. Isn't there another way to mock the effect of the type of Repulican trickle-down economics on working people touted by Senator McCain last night?
I know, I know, I should lighten up. I have real affection for a number of you on this thread, so please forgive me for this. No apologies to you Rotwang. Way to dig a deeper hole with this beauty of a thread comment:
"I've got the prince of plumbers. Absolutely super. No he's not the one in the picture. If he wore a white shirt and tie on his jobs it wouldn't be out of character".
What the f*** does that even mean? I see two asses in this post.
October 16, 2008 8:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
bslev, ass cracks are always funny. That's just a well-known scientific fact. Learn some science.
What you may not have realized is that the person in the photo above is actually a particle physicist, taken working to repair the Large Hadron Collider. There--now don't you feel silly?
October 16, 2008 9:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
If it helps, my eyes burn when it's Britney Spears' ass crack too :) But point taken.
October 16, 2008 9:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry if you were offended by my comment, Bruce, but for me, it's not about skilled people working with their hands. I'm fine with carpenters, electricians, and telephone line workers. Plumbers have their own longstanding subculture, due I suspect to the apprentice process involved, and I don't happen to like the attitude of that culture to customers. As always, of course, the stereotype does not fit every member of the group. I imagine you know better than me that not all manual labor unions are alike. BTW, I respect their learning, they are highly trained craftsman, its all about how they use the power of that over their customers. And I meant what I said about not caring in the least if they happen to have low rider pants (that is actually still quite fashionable in my home hood, you get used to it.)
October 16, 2008 11:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Aw geez, please don't apologize to me AA. Now you're making me feel like the third ass in this thread. You and dijamo above you are two of my heroes. And good 'ole bunnycat, is one of the folks I have an ongoing love/hate relationship with, but I can't even help having a soft spot in my heart for him or her.
I know you get it and I know most people get it. As so often happens, now I wish I would've just kept my pen shut.
Cheers. And I do know a coupla great plumbers in NYC, although I don't think they do residential, sorry. :)
October 16, 2008 11:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Precisely. Arrogant bastards. My piddling little jobs aren't good enough for them. :-)
October 16, 2008 12:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
bslev,
HEY, I'm an electrician, what am I, chopped liver????
Q: What do you call a plumber working in a electrical panel?
A: Dead!
October 16, 2008 6:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
P.S. An hour or so ago I watched part of Joe The Plumber's impromptu "press conference" in his driveway. He expressed some very conservative Republican sentiments about taxes, Social Security (he doesn't like it, resents having to contribute to it,) and what he sees as anti-American criticism of the U.S. currently as it is. For me, this sort of expressed a bit of plumber culture, they are either self-employed or wish eventually to be self-employed, and have a "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" attitude because they happen to be trained in a skill that is highly desirable, and don't "need" to work well with or depend on others. Unlike the self-employed in markets with too many competitors, others need them, sometimes desperately, and they know that. I think of many of them more as elitist in a way than workingpersons who aren't getting adequate respect.
October 16, 2008 12:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, maybe that's a quality plumbers share with owners of S&Ls.
=D
October 16, 2008 12:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your reply helped me remember that the women responding on the reason also said something about the Joe Plumber story was not responding to the seriousness of the economic situation for all small business, and that it's not so simple as this story, and she wanted to hear it taken more seriously.
So you probaby have the reason spot on.
October 16, 2008 1:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, there's Bruce doing his Tom Joad thing, picking up for the little guy. Go to it.
I lost my sailor boy avatar when they changed servers; only half made the transition. Anyone else have that problem?
October 16, 2008 6:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
In the construction trade, Plumbers only had to know 4 things.
I received that information from a Plumber
IT FLOWS DOWNHILL
THE BOSS IS AN #SS
PAYDAY IS ON FRIDAY
DON'T BITE YOUR NAILS
October 16, 2008 9:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
Long time reader of TPM, first time writer.
I just joined because I badly want to get heard on this point: Joe Plumber doesn’t understand NET versus GROSS.
Obama needs to be making this distinction – “Joe, regardless of what your BUSINESS makes, until YOU are taking home 250K, you will not have your taxes increased.”
Not true that this is not an important constituency. There are millions of small business owners across the country that need to hear this distinction and don’t understand it.
I am a small business owner and I can tell you most plumbers (I am a contractor, so close enough) don’t get the tax code -- especially if they’ve been W2 their whole lives.
On Public Radio recently, a small business owner called in to say that his restaurant grossed 300K but little of it made it's way into his paycheck. He assumed that because he was grossing 300K that he was above Senator Obama's 250K cut-off for no tax increases.
The show's host did not correct the misunderstanding and I don't believe he understood correctly either.
None of you seem to understand the distinction, and you’re a smart bunch.
Whether or not Obama understands this– he’s certainly not getting the point out to this constituency.
October 16, 2008 9:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Great point, and welcome, felicity.
October 16, 2008 10:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ditto what Bwak said. Welcome aboard.
October 16, 2008 10:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Well, Joe, I'm sure you're a great plumber, but how are you as a tax accountant?"
October 16, 2008 12:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
The misunderstanding is more than just a confusion of net (earnings) and gross (revenue). The typical wage slave has no idea what business expenses are, even labor expenses. If you have a small services business, e.g. plumbing, your basic tax strategy is to get your business to net as close to 0 as possible. Expenses are the primary means that you use to extract money from the business. The money either comes to you in the form of salary (W2 form), non taxable benefits (health insurance, company match to FICA, employee fitness program, life insurance, etc.) or reimbursed employee expenses (mileage, free meals, travel). A small business with a revenue stream of $250,000 will probably not produce more that $150,000 of taxable salary. Most wage slaves may not realize it, but large companies log one to three dollars of labor overhead expenses for every dollar they pay out in salary.
Joe the Plumber's real situation is that he works for a two man company with reported revenues of around $100,000. Joe's real W2 income is probably around $40,000 or less and he may be supplementing that with another $20,000 or so of "off the books" income. Since Joe had a lien on his house for unpaid medical costs, he probably doesn't have and medical insurance. He also has a lien on his house for unpaid taxes, possibly because he got caught not reporting income. Unless Joe inherits some money, he will not be able to come up with the cash to buy a company with a revenue stream of $250,000 in today's credit market. Joe is just a typical republican who has a lot of difficulty separating fantasy from reality. He can't even afford to go to the ball park, but he thinks he was born on third base.
October 18, 2008 12:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
And you wonder what's the matter with Kansas. What's the matter with you?
Your instant reaction is to heap scorn and ridicule on a whole profession because one plumber and his question got used by the opposition?
October 16, 2008 10:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
So maybe I'm not crazy after all. Thanks Emma. Well-said.
October 16, 2008 10:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
de rien
Sorry I didn't see your comment upthread before I posted. All I saw after the picture was red then I left for a few hours. If not for the new dashboard, I doubt I would have found my way back. I am glad I am not the only one who did not appreciate the 'humor' of the picture.
October 16, 2008 7:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Republicans constantly seek to obfuscate on taxes, while Democrats have nothing to say about it and then wonder why men don't want to vote for them. McCain's like a pig in poop over Joe, but I think he's handing Obama an opportunity to address a serious and long term Democratic stumbling block.
October 16, 2008 11:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Is it too late to plug Jane the Plumber for Obama's campaign? Say she works for Joe and needs healthcare and a tax break?
October 16, 2008 1:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, well, after seeing part of Joe The Plumber's press conference this morning, I can easily visualize him having some unhappy employees and also it is possible he's the type that he might have photos like your link posted above his desk or tolerate them from employees even if he doesn't partake himself. Don't get me wrong, he seemed like a quite reasonable guy, not a raving winger, but pretty much an anti-government social conservative who doesn't like things like Social Security taxes, and "government butting in where it doesn't belong" (back to your link--the kinda guy who thinks things like sexual harassment suits are pesky buttinsky government stuff in normal human relations.)
October 16, 2008 2:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
No sexism intended -- just going with the flow of being humorous. I might add you might consider lightening up a bit, and while I have no such photos hanging in my home, I wonder if you have any nude paintings hanging in yours, seeing you are an art appraiser? Or is beauty something to be ashamed of?
October 16, 2008 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have never yunderstood this "marginal tax" argument, because it runs contrary to normal human nature. I had the opportunity this year to earn an extra 30K. Doing so has boosted me into the top tax bracket. No way did I say "No" to that opportunity because it meant I'd pay some more taxes! After all, I still come out ahead even if the Feds grab 40% (IRS+FICA) of that 20K. Maybe the tax rates could be so high that I would say "Forget it" but we are a long way for that point.
Would anyone here turn down 30K because they didn't want to fork over 12K of it to the Feds?
October 16, 2008 8:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good point -- I think Obama needs to be tutored (briefed sounds better I suppose) on tax, either that or he didn't go into details on purpose, which was obviously a mistake if that was the case.
Keep in mind also that since we are talking about Joe being a business owner, if he ran into a situation similar to yours, he could decide if he wanted to to load up some "business" expenses that weren't truly business expenses, the ones that the IRS can't proove aren't business expenses, in order to bring down his rate, if he wanted to. Get a mercedes as the company car to make the "sales calls," etc.
And there are of course a lot of tax loop holes and tax strategies as well that I am sure his CPA, if he has a good one, would recommend to him.
October 17, 2008 12:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
It was reportedly earlier today that 'Joe the Plumber' owes the state of Ohio about $1,200 in back taxes (not $12,000 I mistakenly posted elswhere)....
Here's the video transcript:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/15/debate.poll/index.html#cnnSTCVideo
October 16, 2008 8:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
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These Republicans are amazing. Can't they pick on some other group to exploit for their own nefarious purposes? Does it always have to be Jews and Israel that they incessantly mouth off about? Why do we have to be their wedge ? Do they know, or do they not care, that using Jews as a wedge issue -- intentionally pitting us against the majority -- has a rather ugly history?
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