“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”--Joseph Goebbels

I think he may have been on to something.--Me

I fully expect last-minute pardons for everyone who could remotely be involved. Whether this will stand up without naming names is questionable.
Probably the only upside is that anyone covered couldn't successfully invoke the Fifth Amendment.

It is essential that we bring to justice those who violated OUR PINCIPLES.

Mercy is what can be extended.

If we fail to make known what WE THE PEOPLE,

Who when they pledge allegiance to THE REPUBLIC, FOR WHICH IT STANDS,

WE THE PEOPLE must have a guarantee that the REPUBLIC stands behind its commitment, to enforce, or live up to the standards.

To do otherwise, WE THE PEOPLE, who pledged allegiance, recognizing ONE NATION UNDER GOD.

Esteems it's subservient position, understanding, we apply ourselves to doing God's will.

Torturing others is works belonging to heathens, wicked ones, not of a nation wishing for blessings, as in GOD BLSS AMERICA.

It would be hard to explain to the public why these individuals were being prosecuted for the allegations against them, yet other perceived wrongdoers (for other types of executive-branch crimes; including Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld) were getting off scot-free. Prosecutions for Abu Ghraib scandal did not pass public muster and have not brought closure to those crimes.

There should be some sort of broader, long-term investigation - kind of like a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, rather than the inevitable bad-apples outcome.

The way out of the trap of punishing those doing their perceived jobs (Nuremberg notwithstanding) is to aim at the top. Condi Rice has admitted there was top-down pressure to torture, so Bush must be held to account. In order to try him fairly much testimony will be needed, and those witnesses can be offered immunity.

My gut feeling is that criminals should be prosecuted for their crimes, no matter what their motivation was. If their motivation was Godlike, then the punishment should be lessened, but the criminals are still guilty.

On the other hand, once we set the precedent that criminal investigations and trials of an outgoing administration are acceptable, then you can count on the Republican Party abusing it. They would be absolutely sure to charge an outgoing Democratic president for killing millions of unborn children and trying to execute him for that if we gave them a precedent.

It isn't an easy decision to make. If we had signed on to the International court as we should have, it would be easy. Just let that court do its job.

Can Bush pardon himself before he leaves office and with no charges yet brought against him? There is a candidate for AG in Vermont who says they are going to bring Bush to trial for murder with special assistant to the prosecutor, Vince Bugliosi, author of "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder." It's a compelling case.

Well, of course the Saudis look at the extremist Islamists through a different lens than we do--we have tended to turn them into symbols of pure evil--but to the Saudis, these are their sons and brothers and nephews and cousins--who they think have fallen under the powerful spell of misguided charismatic individuals--and after all, look at the Jonestown Masssacre, David Koresh, Heaven's Gate, Order of the Solar Temple, Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God, Fillipians and Taiping.

Are the violent Islamists all that different? Or merely further along the evolutionary plane? In terms of Islamic extremism, there has been an evolutionary pathway driven by a handful of Imams--ultimately to a fatwah that decreed it was permissible to kill the faithful in pursuit of killing the infidels. This is a very, very controversial interpretation to many Islamic scholars, but is commonly invoked by the Islamic terrorists.

It seems to me that if some of these other suicide cults had suvived, they too, may have become homicidal, as well, much as the People's Temple in Jonestown did, and Koresh and the Branch Davidians did.

When we look at the Islamic terrorists, we Americans tend to see something 'wholly other'--which makes it easier to entertain the notion of torture--when the Saudis look at them, they see their relatives, friends, and neighbors...

These people must be punished for breaking the law.If I am going 50mph in a 35 mph zone,I get a ticket and pay because "I broke the law and the law won." How can it be that these sociopaths get a free ride just because they`re the president and vice-president and their henchmen/women.We have to cut through the bullshit and hold those who break the law accountable.
That`s why Bush should have been impeached.If that had happened he would not have been able to pardon any one.There`s an abundance of political favoritism that allows our "alleged"leaders to literally get away with murder

I wish the Democrats had more of a stomach for political payback.

After the GOP dragged the nation through an impeachment on the flimsiest pretext, that travesty has only served to inoculate Bush from removal from office for war crimes because the Democrats can too easily imagine the "tit for tat" campaign ads that would be run against them.

I fear Sen. Obama has little stomach for prosecuting Bush crimes to the limit for a parallel reason, that he could then be portrayed as the black avenger for white crimes, precisely what the most racist of gun-toting America has armed against.

P.S. As I've noted via atlargely.com, I don't think it'll be Bush to issues the blanket pardons. It'll probably be Cheney, after Bush resigns in order to be pardoned by Cheney before their terms expire.

Either that, or Bush really does have a Paraguayan, extradition-free hideout waiting for after the presidency. Imagine the mischief he and his pals could continue to foment out of the public eye.

I say, arrest 'em on the way out of the inauguration. Take away the passports of anyone who made more than $38k in the White House until the investigation is complete.

P.S. I kid because I love (the US Constitution).

The Unmentionable Answer

Warning: The following post contains something called reality, and thus should be approached with caution by anyone with a beltway mindset.

If you are engaged in any activity other than demanding immediate impeachment then you are on the torture team.

That includes the sacred election, the economic uncertainty, and the luxury of this "discussion" premised on the Pavlovianly-trained notion that there is no reality, just political opinion (which is sociopathy, btw). It is no substitute for demanding action and publicly accusing those impeachophobes who are failing to act.

Think you'd be wasting time? Impeachophobia is wasting our souls. And it is defecating on the memories of the thousands of Americans from our greater generations who fought and died to forge these treaties.

Still trying to rationalize your own inaction with dreams of future prosecutions or commissions? Imagine explaining your strategery or lack of responsibility to the family of one of the innocent detainees.

Impeachment -- before January -- remains our ONLY moral, patriotic option. Without it, there is no basis for any future action.

So, are you part of the solution or part of the problem?

--

I'd like to see a Truth and Reconciliation Committee type structure, where people can come clean without threat of prosecution. It is so important to find out just exactly what went on, as a means of ensuring we don't repeat history. The problem was a systemic and institutional one. We will not be able to destroy that institution if we try and punish just a few of its bureaucrats. Of course there are people that deserve to be in jail for the crimes they've committed against humanity and against our Constitution. But we will not solve the problems they created by seeking that, in a politicized atmosphere, while a President Obama is trying to get things done for the good of the country. Those above that likened this to the Impeachment question are right on. But, politically, Impeachment is an impossibility, just as it is an impossibility to think you can prosecute Dick Cheney for War Crimes. The proper course is to move forward, shine a light on, and learn from the mistakes of the past. Terrible things have been done in the name of the War on Terror. Things that must be brought to light. Without providing immunity, you will never, ever know the depth to which we have sunk, and the damage we have done to our free society. Just my opinion. But you know I'm right.