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Who Are You Going to Believe, Me or Your Lying Eyes?
Here's what Candy Crowley blogged a while ago:
OXFORD, Mississippi (CNN) -- I think Jim Lehrer gave up trying to get them to talk to each other. It's even weirder in the hall -- they are no more than 8 feet apart from each other and they speak to Lehrer only. But A+ for the effort.
And CNN's own photo shows Obama looking at McCain while McCain stares straight ahead.
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On foreign policy, Obama's scored some major points but he's missed the kill shot
A laundry list of McCain Bush failures
Lebanon
Russia
Georgia
Somalia
Iran
Terror
Afghanistan
Pakistan
A Russian squadron is heading for Venezuela. Pakistan is firing on our helicopters. Russia is still in Georgia. Iraq wants our troops out
He totally took for granted that the public recalls how dismal the foreign policy record is
September 26, 2008 10:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do not think this freestyle works the best.
I also believe the moderator needs to be more on top of things when there is an out and out falsehood stated or one goes completely off target.
Was not impressed with format.
That said, Obama gave more facts and specifics, resorted much less to stump speech rhetoric than McCain.
September 26, 2008 10:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry...I'm a huge supporter of Obama, but he blew this, big time...waaaaay too specific and temptered in his answers, no resonance, no hard challenging of McCain, no specific references to the HUGE failures of the last 8 years...he may well have just lost his chance...
When I read the NYT article today about "Obama being too cool" in the face of a challenge, I thought, "BOLLOCKS!" Now, all I can say is "wow...that sucked"
September 26, 2008 10:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, like this comment is even going to post...
I think Obama missed an opportunity tonight. He could have and should have gotten into McCain's face. And he chose not to. Maybe it's a rope-a-dope strategy, waiting for the last debate. But he's got to get McCain to blow his top.
Didn't do it tonight. Based on expectations (mine, at least), I'd have to give the not to McCain.
-- ARG
September 26, 2008 11:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
"nod", not "not". Dammit.
-- ARG!
September 26, 2008 11:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
I couldn't disagree more, and I say this as someone who was dying to be there and do the old man myself, exactly as you say
The last thing Obama needed was to be disrespectful, get in McCain's face, get him to blow his stack (he was close as it was several times)and have the affair degenerate into a shouting match
Obama had to look Presidential. This was Carter/Reagan 1980 in spades. People are fed up and they are ready to go for the new guy and dump the 30 years of experience
But they need to see level headed leader material and they did
September 26, 2008 11:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
I disagree. He played it perfectly. He played the good guy, while Mc stood there and practically quivered with rage. O's got a moderately comfortable lead and climbing and Mc's campaign is imploding in slow-mo of it's own accord. Why risk a backlash by beating him up even more?
September 27, 2008 12:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
I disagree too. I was screaming lines at the TV for Obama to use to tear McCain a new one and was frustrated when he didn't say them. We were watching it on CNN and I noticed their little tracker which showed immediate responses by their groups of Dems Repubs and Undecideds. Certainly not a good sampling, but I noticed they all disapproved when McCain made a nasty statement to Obama or looked like he was getting angry. It was immediate and across the board. Obama probably should have used more metaphors and gone into less detail because it looked like people got bored when he went on awhile about specifics.
The biggest miss though is that Obama should have pointed out that McCain has been in a Republican controlled Congress for 8 years and didn't offer any legislation or leadership for his party to make the "reform" he now plans to make. If he couldn't lead his party, how could he possibly lead a country with a Democratically controlled Congress? He needed to pull a Couric and ask for RECENT attempts at legislation and successes where he got his own party to pass it.
September 27, 2008 3:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
I hear what you all are saying, and I don't disagree. By "get in his face" I meant with the same cool, calm manner, but more direct and cutting language. I wanted him to confront McCain and challenge his paternal posturing.
I spent some time pre-debate in a bar arguing with a co-worker who supports McCain. (I know, it's a waste of time!) That probably colored my view of the debates. I was looking for a knock-out punch, so that even my friend would have to concede that Obama won.
I felt Obama had opportunities to send McCain over the edge. And if Obama could stay cool, while McCain lost his nut, I think it'd be game over.
Probably wasn't a rational expectation on my part.
-- ARG
September 27, 2008 11:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
All Obama had to do tonight was tie - McCain was supposed to trounce him in foreign policy. Obama held his own and that was enough.
I would've like to see him slap McCain around but I think Obama's politeness and respect played better than McCain's sneers and "you don't understand." McCain came across as condescending and disrespectful, while Obama looked amused,calm and yes, cool, in the face of backhanded attacks.
Personality and body language count in these things and I think Obama looked more presidential.
September 26, 2008 11:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's what I was trying to say. Debates are not about policy details. They are about emotional response. People remember 30 second snips not 2 minute answers
September 26, 2008 11:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
I listened to the whole thing--my web connection was too slow for good streaming video--and McCain's condescension came across to me. Also, it seemed many times that he was running long and Obama tried to interject or retort, but McCain kept jabbering. I don't recall that helping Gore too much 8 years ago.
So I don't know about looking presidential, but Obama sure sounded more presidential and in command of a wider variety of facts and circumstances than McCain.
September 26, 2008 11:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain lied about 10 times. Most of the time Obama smiled and tried to correct, but McCain kept steamrolling.
Obama needs to say "John, you're doing it again. That is just not true. Here's the truth..."
He needs to say that every time McCain lies, and say it loudly enough that he is heard. It has to be about not believing McCain anymore.
September 26, 2008 11:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, if only Obama had said: "Now there you go again!" That would have been wish fulfilling...
September 27, 2008 1:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
c4,
I thought Obama had an opportunity when McCain listed all the past wars and other military actions, going back to Reagan and Beirut, he so fervently spoke of. Obama could have mentioned how McCain lives in the past and is part of the past, and being there, he cannot be a force for change.
Obama could also have added that McCain's seeming obsession, admiration?, with military actions might be a cause for concern as we know he has a temper and angers quickly.
September 27, 2008 9:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Republicans are Spartans, which explains their obsession with Gay Sex--and Democrats are Athenians.
Like the Ancient Egyptians said: nothing ever really changes. We have always had a crazy old warrior trying to become the new emperor.
September 27, 2008 10:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
I would have also liked something along the lines of, "Yes, John, I agree. You have never met a war you didn't like."
September 28, 2008 8:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am old vote for me and our troops would have been home already if Obama had his way ....
The election is over
September 26, 2008 11:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
McCain's argument was a sophistical--Socrates pointed this out well over 2,000 years ago--argument from authority. "Trust me." It's a basic logical fallacy taught in philosophy 101.
But, unfortunately, it can be a useful rhetorical device, whose force has been lessened for McCain when you look at his erratic behavior of the last couple of days.
September 26, 2008 11:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, but Obama could have STILL pointed out that the 'argument from expertise' is a rhetorical trick.
This is supposed to be a wrasslin match, after all.
September 27, 2008 9:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
It doesn't matter who won because McCain announced the winner this morning (Friday) in the Wall Street Journal. The paid ad shows McCain posing in front of the flag with a big grin and the words "McCain Wins Debate."
Chris Cillizza (Washington Post) took this screenshot of the premature ad.
September 26, 2008 11:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Josh is close to getting what Debbie and I are getting at
September 26, 2008 11:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's what McCain wanted viewers to come away with. That was so obviously his standard he had to blurt it out several times so we'd be sure to get it
By that standard, he failed miserably
September 26, 2008 11:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
What I came away with is that McCain is lost in the past. He seemed like he was standing on his age and very little else.
September 27, 2008 12:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Obamba got a few shots in. McCain was angry and kept talking to long,interrupting ,I think Obama did fairly well.Didn't see anything from McCain that would change minds.
September 26, 2008 11:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama didn't have to get in John "Wayne’s" face.
He totally called McCain out when he presented his own bracelet.
Cut the patriotic BS.
And oh by the way did you know he was a POW?
And basically John blew it with his attitude " Sonny, I've also been everywhere. NaNaNaNa nana
John McSame' answer to America's financial meltdown?
MORE TAX CUTS!!!! Scream out loud.
600 BILLION DOLLAR BAILOUT PLAN, 10+ BILLION DOLLARS A MONTH EXPENDITURE IN IRAQ,
But give tax cuts and make middle class workers accept program cuts.
September 26, 2008 11:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
A noun, a verb and POW.
September 26, 2008 11:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
My only regret is, as I said above, that Obama failed to convey just how badly the US has fallen and failed under McCain/Bush. He didn't tell folks straight up just how dire things have become - from peace, prosperity, to economic collapse, and worldwide decline.
If he'd told it like it is, though, people would think him defeatist not realist
September 26, 2008 11:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think most Americans are well aware of those things (except the delusional 30% who still approve of Bush), so Obama didn't have to do the in your face. But yeah, like I said above, it would've been fun if Obama had gone after him full throttle.
September 26, 2008 11:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, he certainly could have itemized the major problems the next president inherits and given a one sentence vision for where he would like to take the country on each point. It would have taken one minute of rhetoric.
There is just too much detail in these things. It's theatre. Shakespeare has been showing these guys how to do it right for 400 years!
September 26, 2008 11:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama had a chance to really make the point, by asking McCain, are tax cuts more important than middle class programs.
Which ones do you think we should freeze?
John if we go into a Depression, how will middle class Workers, Unemployed workers pay for health care? Food, heating costs, kitchen table issues.
As a middle class American, I am not going to shed a tear for someone who has an income of 250k+ or has a savings account, or my neighbors kid, cries from being sick, or has no milk, and my neighbor is unemployed and has no shelter,
I don't believe my rich neighbor needs a tax cut
That is currently my opinion.
September 27, 2008 12:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed, everything McCain said was an opportunity get get Socratic on his ass. Too many earmarks? Which ones would you cut? Crab mating in Briston Bay? A road to nowhere on a remote island? Seal DNA studies?
This canard on earmarks gets on my nerves. If senators don't bring home the bacon they will not get re-elected. The question is whether their is a broad benefit to America at large--if we are talking about a bridge over the Mississippi, I would say the answer is, Yes.
September 27, 2008 1:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
I too get annoyed at McCain for this cheap shot.
I am from Arizona and McCain knows full well the problems we face in the State.
Yet as a Senator he has watched Arizonanans pay taxes, and yet he has not really helped to bring us a refund in the form of asking for some of it back, in the form of earmarks for the State, So who does John Mccain really work for. I suspect he really works for his own self promotion and not the constituents who elected him to do their bidding.
John would rather chase windmills, (COMBATING THE DREADED EARMARK) as did the insane Don Quixote
September 27, 2008 1:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Don Quixote. Good call. And check this out:
Sarah Palin = Sancho Panza.
September 27, 2008 9:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
c4,
All McCain has is the Surge and Earmarks. Obama tried to explain how little the earmarks account for, $18 Billion. He didn't mention how little this $18 Billion was compared to 2009 federal budget of $3,100 Billion.
Lets see, isn't that like
$18.00 in a $3,100 budget?
September 27, 2008 9:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
you left out I'm a MAVERICK! and Victory with Honor.
He is SO psychologically crippled that to ME he is the most contemptible proposition for POTUS in MY lifetime--and it's all the more perverse because of his war record of suffering. And Sarah Palin--The whole thing is like something out of a surreal satirical novel.
I keep asking people--what if you were watching a movie and all this shit was happening on the big screen? You'd be laughing your ass off! It would be so Absurd.
September 27, 2008 9:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think Obama played this perfectly.
If he had scored too many "zings," then he would be accused (albeit in a subtle manner) of being uppity (press would use words like "combative" or "tense') or generally might have turned off certain independents who are looking primarily for tone and personality.
Instead, he pretty much matched McCain who really had the burden of proof given that he runs on the I-am-a-war-hero-with-experience ticket.
In fact, the "experience" factor has been off the table for a few weeks now, for good reason with Palin in the house representin', so I was shocked to hear McCain use this as his primary thesis for every response/argument.
I think we're going to see the analysis scrutinize McCain's game of chicken, ultimate turnout despite lack of congressional consensus, and inability to p0wn Obama.
September 26, 2008 11:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
How about the fact that McCain would not even look at Obama? Why is John McCain so cold that he won't even make eye contact with the person whom millions of Americans feel is ready to become POTUS. I mean Obama addressed John and tried to engage him eye to eye. Where I come from you talk to a person in the eye and Jim Lehrer asked them to talk to one another which I think was a stroke of genius by the way. If America is going to restore its legacy and live up to its greatest dreams which seems to be the hopes of both the left and the right, then you are going to have to be able to talk eye to eye with those you have differences with in order to find common ground. This is what Obama talks about and Reagan talks about when mentioning the US as a "Shinning City on a Hill" (Sorry about the Reagan reference)
The other thing that stood out to me was towards the end and I can not remember the specific question, but I believe John McCain said something to the effect "... we need to strengthen our interrogators so they don't torture ...." and after he finished Obama mentioned " ... I agree with John that we should not torture..." Maybe it is a stretch but did McCain just say during a debate that US interrogators under the Bush Admin "tortured" people in their custody?
September 26, 2008 11:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, McCain did finally admit that the US has tortured. Good for him for saying it.
When McCain wouldn't make eye contact all I could think was when someone's lying to you or about you, he won't look you in the eye.
McCain reminded me of Nixon tonight - all hunched over and scowling; he even has the jowls.
September 26, 2008 11:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Angry, angry, angry. Part of the key here is that McCain is clearly miffed that he even has to debate or run again[st] Obama. He thinks it's an insult." --Josh Marshall
Spot on.
I really don't know how that it will affect vot