The Right Tone: Who's So Damn Patriotic?
Katie: "Your vice presidential rival, Governor Palin, said, 'To the rest of America, that's not patriotism. Raising taxes is about killing jobs and hurting small businesses and making things worse.'"Biden: "How many small businessmen are making one million, four hundred thousand--average in the top 1 percent. Give me a break. I remind my friend, John McCain, what he said--when Bush called for war and tax cuts--he said, it was immoral, immoral, to take a nation to war and not have anybody pay for it. I am so sick and tired of this phoniness. The truth of the matter is that we are in trouble. And the people who do not need a new tax cut should be willing, as patriotic Americans, to understand the way to get this economy back up on their feet is to give middle class taxpayers a break. We take the tax cut they're getting and we give it to the middle class."
The attack dog goes after the right flank. No apology, no defensiveness, but righteous indignation. Fine with me if Obama wants to run a 2-minute ad laying out the bones of an economic program--it plays stodgy to me and some friends, but never mind--but this tone from Biden is more than welcome, especially in Ohio.
What Chuck Hagel said yesterday about Sarah Palin was true, obvious, and simple common sense. It was like sipping oxygen in a noxious atmosphere. Now we have more truth telling from Joe Biden--more oxygen right from the tank. Simple truth telling is the medicine, because the the disease is non-stop bullshit--that is the root of the problem. All of this bullshit to mystify the simple truth, to mythify the simple truth, and to reify it. Enough is too much! Tell it like it is. I hunger for it.I thirst for it. I crave it. I want the simple, plain, truth. I CAN handle it. So can America.
September 19, 2008 9:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
c4,
truth is often hidden in the way journalists ask a question; to quote Couric:
Katie: "Your vice presidential rival, Governor Palin, said, 'To the rest of America, that's not patriotism. Raising taxes is about killing jobs and hurting small businesses and making things worse.'"
Blitzer, Brokaw and the whole gang frame it the same way; "raise/raising taxes".
Democrats need to reply as Biden did, embarrass the SOBs for their not making the distinction that they KNOW exists.
September 19, 2008 10:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
It isn't a tax increase. It's a tax cut for the vast majority of Americans.
September 19, 2008 12:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
JN,
of course it is, and those frikkin journalists know it, yet they refuse to phrase it that way.
September 19, 2008 12:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
You guys slay me.
Which is paid for by a tax INCREASE on the rest.
It's time to reiterate.... Who is greedier? The one that wants to keep more of their earnings, or the one that covets those earnings for himself.
Apart from all that, how many here remember that same exact promise of a middle class tax cut from Clinton? How did that work out for you? Heh.
September 19, 2008 1:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
You sound like you belong to the give me something for nothing crowd.
September 19, 2008 1:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
c4,
that's him, the kind that feels too much is never enough. The national motto, E Pluribus Unum, goes in the trash can with these people. shooter242 may actually be Phil Gramm.
We need a Fair Tax, and the only Fair Tax would be one where everyone pays the exact dollar amount. Me, Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, all pay, say, $1,000, as does the poor family down the street,as does that elderly widow living on her Social Security check.
I'm sure Bill Gates wants to keep that elderly widow out of his pocket. He works hard for his money! That's why he has so much stashed in off shore accounts.
"Two out of every three United States corporations paid no federal income taxes from 1998 through 2005, according to a report released Tuesday by the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/business/13tax.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&oref=slogin
September 19, 2008 1:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
shooter242 asks;
I'll tell you who's greedier; those that have so much wealth they can use it to buy unfair monetary/tax advantage over others with the
government.
As I said above, its the gang that feels too much is never enough.
So if I had stock in Equifax I paid for this "tax forgivness act."
September 19, 2008 2:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
http://www.ajc.com/business/content/printedition/2008/04/15/grossup0415.html
Here's the link I meant to post above.
September 19, 2008 2:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's right. If you had stock in Equifax. But apparently you don't, so it's none of your business.
September 19, 2008 3:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
shooter242,
heh, heh, heh, that's all you got Bunky?
So if you aren't paying the wealthiest's taxes then what they pay is none of your business.
September 19, 2008 4:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
If I forgave 30 percent of your tax for seven years and then stopped, that wouldn't be a tax increase. Do the math, think with your brain and not your ass.
September 19, 2008 4:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just curious...how much do YOU make, shooter? Let us know, and one of us will be happy to do the math for you.
September 19, 2008 3:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
The patriotic thing that Republicans should do is voluntarily cede control and let the adults take over.
September 19, 2008 9:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Indeed. The Republicans need a few years on the sidelines to work out their issues.
September 19, 2008 10:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
I like this. Let's consider it a timeout for bad behavior.
September 19, 2008 11:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Righteous/Indignation 2008!!
September 19, 2008 12:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Give me a break indeed! Thank god for Joe. The Dems have always been overly sensitive when it comes to national security and taxes. Dems will raise your taxes has been a Repub scare tactic for decades.
Once again the Obama/Biden ticket is asking us to think, and act, like adults.
September 19, 2008 10:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
You're right. All Republitards know is fear and smear.
September 19, 2008 4:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well that's the way that they wage the 'info war'--but when they raise insufficient receivables to meet their payables--what do they do? They borrow money from China. If you are not willing to pay for this war with higher taxes--then fine--we will just borrow the money from China--and your unborn grandchildren will pay off the debt, so tell your children to get busy and make future taxpayers--cause we don't want to pay for what we consume. You don't like taxes. Fine. No taxes. Vote for us. We will impose them on your grandchildren.
Commoner's Laws:
1. There is No such thing as a free lunch.
2. Everything is connected to everything.
3. Everything has to go someplace.
4. Nature knows best
Anybody that tells you you can have it all--government services, wars, financial bailouts, crab mating studies, seal harbour DNA science, a road to nowhere--but we don't have to pay for it--because you don't like to pay taxes--is bullshitting you.
Reagan once said: 'What has posterity ever done for me?' That is what this is really all about.
Tell it like it is. Stop the Bullshit. Somebody has to pay. Is it going to be any of us? Who then?
September 19, 2008 10:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Gotta love Biden's "bad cop" to Obama's "good cop" ... works out great: you get the truth with or without teeth.
Either way, you get the truth... and this tax issue needs to get pounded in (Obama will not raise taxes on middle and lower income workers; will LOWER them). Period.
September 19, 2008 11:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
How one can be a hawk and rabidly anti-tax in the same breath is mystifying. Income taxes in one form or another have been justified, and levied for millenia - to pay for wars. Tribal chiefs, kings, emperors, presidents...have always had to finance their wars and they've done it by taxing their citizens.
Of course trying to explain that to people who believe that their candidate for vice-president is the nation's foremost authority on energy because she "comes from an energy state" is to unnecessarily tax one's lungs.
September 19, 2008 12:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL.
And obviously that simple truth is that SOMEONE ELSE should pay my way.
September 19, 2008 12:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've always paid my way. 20 odd years ago, when I was the local chairman of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, We wore buttons that said: I'm with the BLE--And I Pay My Own Way.
I am all for raising taxes. I have no problem with it. It bugs me that there are tax loopholes and tax havens. But some people are deluded into thinking they can get away with stuff. They can't. It's a closed system. They may THINK they got away with something, but their blood and their tissues are filled with the same toxic industrial soup as you and I, and, just like you and I their roads lead to the graveyard, as well.
You can't take it with you. Accumulating captial is as useless as piling up river stones. Look at Russert. How many river stones did he pile up for what crimes against the truth. And he drops dead at his desk. What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world if it cost him his soul?
September 19, 2008 1:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Excuse me.... (snicker) Isn't demanding a tax cut funded by a tax increase on someone else, "getting away with stuff"? Aside from that, people keep telling me I get all sorts of tax loopholes, but are never able to point them out. Why is that?
I'm sorry C4 but this is just all time dumb. Accumulating capital is how hospitals are built, homes erected, charitable foundations are funded, and universities founded. Without capital accumulation you would not have had a job as an engineer, or a railroad to drive upon.It's sloppy thinking like this that allows idiots advocating class envy, to ruin economies.
September 19, 2008 1:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
In this particular case, I think Obama is advocating trying to provide some stimulus to the retail economy by giving the lower classes money to spend--maybe on gasoline. And he going to take it from the wealthy classes that won't be hurt very much when it happens--they're they guys that made all the dough going from boom to bust. (You know how Romney made HIS 300 million? He was a vulture.) And this is going to help out the overall economy, rather than sweeten the bank account of the rich, which will be sweetened anyway when the economic tide raises all boats. Something Republicans just can't understand. They think its all about being miserly and gripping every last buck. They never grasp that when the common people have wages to spend, they spend it on the commodities that make the economy go round.
You are not distinguishing between institutions raising captital to build enterprises, verus private individuals accumulating capital for what, exactly--in many cases rich individuals accumulte more money than they can ever spend in a lifetime. They eat as well as they can eat. Travel first class. Drive the fineest cars. Live in mansions. Float on yachts. Great. But then, they still have so much money they don't know what to do with it. So they give it to their cats. Or to the Mormon church. Or to some museum or university. They could not take it with them. They died. But while they lived--could they have used some of their money to alleviate just a little of the suffering of people who were not as lucky, or not as lucky to be as smart? You think an aristocracy is better? Like with the Bushes, leave all that money to the heirs? Let them grow fat and indolent? What is the point of devoting your life to accumulating billions and billions of dollars, and then complaining about paying some little tax that lets a poor kid get dental care? Have you never read 'A Christmas Carol'. Is it all I, Me, and Mine with you?
September 19, 2008 1:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Love it or leave it. Pay your taxes here or get out. No more Phil Gramm tax shelters for the America-hating Top 1%'ers.
September 19, 2008 1:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tax shelter? What tax shelter? The top 1% are paying their share of taxes and part of yours too. You should say thank you, instead of love it or leave it.
September 19, 2008 1:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
You should pay more. Just like Herr Schindler at the end of Schindlers list. He realized he could have save more--then it was too late. Will you go to your grave thinking about the starving children you could have fed?
September 19, 2008 1:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
September 19, 2008 1:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
What do you know about the problems of the poor? Have you ever been poor? Have you ever been homeless? Quit reading the propaganda from the Heritage Foundation. I've known their expert on poverty policy for 40 years--it's all a game with them. Robert Rector, (whom I have known since he was a 18-year old card carrying communist), claims that there ARE no poor people in America. You think rich people aren't fat? You think middle class people aren't fat? Your arguments are absurd Republican mythology.
September 19, 2008 1:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, Warren Buffet (sp?) was amazed to learn that his secretary is in a higher tax bracket than he is. After reacting with a modicum of genuine shock, he even said that such a thing didn't make any sense.
And that's really the point. The tax code doesn't make any sense. It does favor the extremely rich. Justify that if you can.
September 19, 2008 1:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
September 19, 2008 2:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
shooter,
hedge fund managers pay a tax rate of 15% on the multi million dollar compensation they earn.
When you asked "who is the greedier", its people like this who can buy preferential tax treatment from Congress.
September 19, 2008 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Shooter, can you tell me the difference between a monthly dividend check and a monthly rent check? I don't have the former but I do have the latter - which I pay tax on.
Am I right that unearned income is not taxed? If so, I'm getting screwed since that income from my rental property is not earned by the sweat of my brow, yet I have to pay tax on it. I'm obviously being denied the same preferential treatment that my dividend collecting neighbor enjoys. What's the fairness in that?
September 19, 2008 3:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
OTOH when you sell your property you'll only pay 15% on the gain. Besides, aren't you enjoying all the nice tax benefits of depreciation, and real estate related expenses? As for dividends, you'll have to write your congressman, but between you and me, if you buy a nice muni bond fund you can avoid ALL the taxes. And get a better return to boot.
September 19, 2008 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I get that untaxed dividends cannot be justified - at least by you. As far as 'write-offs' on rental property go, kinda like saying aren't you glad you're deathly ill - think of all the tax deductions you'll get to take.
September 20, 2008 12:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't mean to whine, but it's time for you to give back that tax cut you were given for no reason, and pay for this war that your beloved George W. Bush started. It's called responsibility. We're throwing bull$hit thinkers like you and Grover Norquist out of Washington. Have a nice trip. (PS - Your dog is cool. But your ideas are a pile of dog crap on the front lawn of America.)
September 19, 2008 2:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hmmmm. Perhaps you aren't getting the picture. The rich already pay the vast majority of taxes. How many of you ne'er-do-wells, do you think should get a free ride?
September 19, 2008 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are wrong on the facts. Period. You are completely full of it. You probably do not know the percentage of revenue the US govt gets from personal income(43%). You probably don't know what it gets from capital gains.Capital gains are usually 2 to 3 percent of total US govt revenue. So you do not know what you are talking about. Study something before you start mouthing a bunch of bullshit.
September 19, 2008 2:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
shooter,
what percentage of the country's total wealth did they grab last year?
September 19, 2008 2:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
">Check it out for yourself.
September 19, 2008 3:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Drat. Hey site manager! How about a preview feature?!?!?
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/88xx/doc8885/12-11-HistoricalTaxRates.pdf
September 19, 2008 4:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I thought you hated all oversight? Do you always need someone to hold your hand?
September 19, 2008 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
A preview of the upcoming Biden-Palin debate. By the end, there will be little bits of sock puppet all over the stage.
September 19, 2008 1:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
While Bush has been president we have had numerous tax cuts aimed at the wealthy, which required the middle class to pay an ever larger share of the taxes. Obama is correcting that injustice. Now, isn't that a simple way to look at it, and doesn't it accurately state the facts?
Republicans clearly have low IQ's, or they would be able to figure out that cutting taxes every year is the inverse of a pyramid scheme. To help those low IQ folks understand this, when you do that you eventually have a government with no source of revenue, thus a government that can operate only with borrowed money. And, that only works if in the future the government allows a big devaluation of the dollar to make the resultant debt shrink to manageable size. But, when that happens the entire economy tends to collapse. (See Germany in the late 1920's)
September 19, 2008 1:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh brother. I believe McCain wants to keep tax rates where they are, not lower them. For those folks with superior IQ's, tax revenues are like Walmart's revenues. They charge less and make it up in volume.
Oh and while I'm at it, Bush's tax cuts made the income tax MORE progressive, not less. Don't believe me? Try and prove your original assertion without running across that factoid.
September 19, 2008 1:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're paradigm bound. It's a waste of time to engage you. Somewhere in our disagreement there is a nugget of information you could care less about. It's cool with me. Everyone is their own judge jury and executioner. May you find happiness in the still of the night.
September 19, 2008 1:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh please. You just want someone else to take care of you and whoever else YOU think is deserving. Sorry bud, but I'm not your "daddy" or anyone elses's.
September 19, 2008 2:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've never had anyone to take care of you. There are certain facts of your own existenc you seem unaware of. Do you live in a city? Do you enjoy police and fire services? A court system? Traffic lights? Air traffic control? Customs? Disease monitoring? Pilot licensing at seaports? Sewerage and water treatment plants?
Who is going to pay for these things? Did you go to public schools? Who paid to turn you into a fucking idiot? They should ask for their money back. It was wasted. You live in a country that absolutely must deal with other nations, maintain an army, and all the other systems that keep the country able to support capitalist enterprises--and then, when people propose that revenue is collected to pay for all this stuff--you accuse them of wanting to be taken care of. You want to be taken care of. You are projecting. Do you live in the wilderness with an axe and a gun. You, my friend, are completely full of shit. You talk the talk, but you do not walk the walk--just like all the other weak minded fucking Republicans. You want something for nothing. Or let the guy with the least resources get stuck with the bill. You thinking is fucked.
September 19, 2008 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I still think you aren't getting the picture. The rich already pay almost all the taxes. Something like a third (guess) pay nearly none. From what I can see, you think the top twenty percent or so, should pay for the remaining eighty percent.
My question is, what makes you so special that someone else should cover most of your bill? that is the current state of taxation today.
September 19, 2008 2:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are awfully brave to be making claims about who isn't getting the picture. According to the 2006 economic census, the number of families in the US making more than 250,000 is 1.5% of Americans. That is 1,699,000 households out of 300000000 Americans. 12% of Americans make less than 10,000 a year.
You simply do not know what you are talking about. Really. Do some research. You are embarrassing youself. Really. You, are an ass.
September 19, 2008 2:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
And what precisely does any of that have to do with who pays the freight? Not a thing. Do us both a favor and study this table of ">who pays what.
Be sure you check the part where the top twenty percent pays 86% of the income taxes while making a considerably smaller portion of the earnings. They also pay 70% of all the Fed taxes including SS, which is still a larger percentage than they earn.
There is NO measure by which they don't pay more than anyone else. Yet you say they should pay even more than that. That makes you the greedy one. Don't like it? Too bad. Write your congressman.
September 19, 2008 3:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
You pitiful creature. No wonder your thinking is so fucked. You've been getting agitprop from the NTU. Oh My God. I am afraid there is little hope you will ever grasp reality, my friend. NTU has a nice reltionship with Big Tobacco--just like Ken Starr. I wouldn't trust their figures to place in the outhouse to substitute for corn cobs.
The NTU is funded by Phillip Morris and The Tobacco Institute.
September 19, 2008 3:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
In the absence of anything better it will have to do. Do you have something to offer? No? Heh.
September 19, 2008 4:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
The crystal ball is clearing. I, I see your future. You will be a victim all your life. Born to grow old and never know, but talk a lot of guff every time you open your ignorant mouth.
September 19, 2008 5:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
shooter,
you're being too slick by far.
How do you arrive at the top 20% as an example?
No one debating here but you is using that example, most here are speaking of the top 1 to 5 percent. For simplicity, we'll just focus on the over-$250,000 group. Those reporting adjusted gross income of more than $250,000 to the IRS are projected to make up 2 percent of households next year, when the new president will take office.
Using the top 20% as you do is bullshit when arguing the wealthy pay too much in taxes because by counting the top 20% you're including many people who aren't wealthy.
September 19, 2008 3:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Market should take care of itself, Right? unless everyone loses everything then there will be nothing for anyone. You are a pretty fart smeller.
September 19, 2008 4:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
The TV NewsModels and bloviating Bobbleheads are smarter than the "regular" people. They know that under Obama's plan they will have to pay more of their $million salaries in taxes - boo hoo!
September 19, 2008 1:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think you are absolutely right.
September 19, 2008 1:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think you are absolutely right.
September 19, 2008 1:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wait, you mean you still beleive in the LAFFER CURVE??? WTF are you like trapped in 1982 or something?
September 19, 2008 2:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
As for you, which part of charging less and making it up in volume are you having trouble with? Should I presume that you think charging more in taxes during a downturn is a good idea?
For that matter if you don't like the Laffer curve, what do you have to replace it with?
September 19, 2008 3:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
shooter asks:
Why would something so useless need to be replaced?
http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2008/01/the-new-laffer.html
September 19, 2008 4:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Now that's an excellent rebuttal. I think time will tell who is right, particularly if Obama wins and raises taxes.
Recall hat the Phillips curve was doctrine right up until the .com boom disproved it.
September 19, 2008 4:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
shooter2442,
Which proves you should stop believing in bullshit.
September 19, 2008 5:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't say I believed your version. Just that time settles all arguments. That was your cue to gracefully agree to disagree. Too subtle?
September 19, 2008 6:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
shooter242 says:
The "Laffer Curve" you refer to was introduced in the Reagan years, so its been floating around for about 25 years. I just posted what you called "an excellent rebuttal" and yet you want more time to "settle all arguments."
September 20, 2008 10:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm having trouble with the lying part. It's not true. Boy did you ever swallow what Reagan unloaded on you.
The ultra-rich didn't pay their fair share of taxes for the last 28 years since Reagan took office. And the deregulationists were allowed to destroy the stock market by removing all intelligent rules and limitations. Now the public owns several private companies for the price of $600 Bilion (Krugman) up to $1 Trillion (Paulson).
Not a fair trade.
Face it: You just broke the most powerful/important human wealth builder of all time. You also killed the middle class.
Thanks, Republitards! (bubbalewy Hussein O'Bamarama)
September 19, 2008 4:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
So let's talk about patriotism and treason, Governor Palin.
Even Richard Cohen of the Washington Post, a long time McCain admirer, had to conclude "His opportunistic and irresponsible choice of Sarah Palin as his political heir -- the person in whose hands he would leave the country -- is a form of personal treason."
The whole piece is at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/15/AR2008091502406.html
September 19, 2008 3:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, snd BTW let's privatize Social Security and let the market be responsible for our retirement. I guess I'll keep driving my truck until I drop dead. No need for retirement. Thanks, Republitards.
September 19, 2008 4:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey PooP Shooter, you're doing a fine job.
September 19, 2008 4:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
FWIW I liked the stodgy two minute video.
September 19, 2008 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
The direct Use in the word "Patriotic" in Biden's reply is missing. They should own the use back, the Republican colloquial on patriotism should be re-acclaimed, and can be done by using the noun itself.
I think it should be said even in a clearer way:" Your actions and your doings are not patriotic; this is not patriotic conduct etc. "
Stress more and more who is the real patriot.
this is to strengthen the bond between the lower middle class- the offended, as the poor, to Obama/biden- their protecters and true delegates of interests.
They should feel they have a clear back, what should redefine patriotism (maybe to its original meaning..) - which means to operate truthfully to the well being of the citizens.
So more Clearly: ' McCain and Palin are saying their the real patriot, but their conduct and plans is not patriotic at all.'
In a related subject- why do they call McCain "my friend." isn't it confusing about whose doing damage and whose a liar? why must they be his "friend". can't they be just college to the public delegacy , or something like that.
September 19, 2008 6:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was a bit puzzled by Obama's two minutes of wonk.
But after seeing his news conference in Florida today, I think he is playing presidential while McCain and Palin continue to squawk.
It's good for the moment and a lead in to the debates where he will try to expose McCain's temper.
September 19, 2008 11:44 PM | Reply | Permalink