« The Wall Street Big Boys Are Scared of Shorts: Naked and Otherwise | Home | Tzipi's Choice »

The Right Tone: Who's So Damn Patriotic?

user-pic

Joe Biden with Katie Couric:

Katie: "Your vice presidential rival, Governor Palin, said, 'To the rest of America, that's not patriotism. Raising taxes is about killing jobs and hurting small businesses and making things worse.'"

Biden: "How many small businessmen are making one million, four hundred thousand--average in the top 1 percent. Give me a break. I remind my friend, John McCain, what he said--when Bush called for war and tax cuts--he said, it was immoral, immoral, to take a nation to war and not have anybody pay for it. I am so sick and tired of this phoniness. The truth of the matter is that we are in trouble. And the people who do not need a new tax cut should be willing, as patriotic Americans, to understand the way to get this economy back up on their feet is to give middle class taxpayers a break. We take the tax cut they're getting and we give it to the middle class."

The attack dog goes after the right flank. No apology, no defensiveness, but righteous indignation. Fine with me if Obama wants to run a 2-minute ad laying out the bones of an economic program--it plays stodgy to me and some friends, but never mind--but this tone from Biden is more than welcome, especially in Ohio.


75 Comments

| Leave a comment
user-pic

What Chuck Hagel said yesterday about Sarah Palin was true, obvious, and simple common sense. It was like sipping oxygen in a noxious atmosphere. Now we have more truth telling from Joe Biden--more oxygen right from the tank. Simple truth telling is the medicine, because the the disease is non-stop bullshit--that is the root of the problem. All of this bullshit to mystify the simple truth, to mythify the simple truth, and to reify it. Enough is too much! Tell it like it is. I hunger for it.I thirst for it. I crave it. I want the simple, plain, truth. I CAN handle it. So can America.

user-pic

c4,

truth is often hidden in the way journalists ask a question; to quote Couric:

Katie: "Your vice presidential rival, Governor Palin, said, 'To the rest of America, that's not patriotism. Raising taxes is about killing jobs and hurting small businesses and making things worse.'"

Blitzer, Brokaw and the whole gang frame it the same way; "raise/raising taxes".

Democrats need to reply as Biden did, embarrass the SOBs for their not making the distinction that they KNOW exists.

user-pic

It isn't a tax increase. It's a tax cut for the vast majority of Americans.

user-pic

JN,

of course it is, and those frikkin journalists know it, yet they refuse to phrase it that way.

You guys slay me.

It isn't a tax increase. It's a tax cut for the vast majority of Americans.

Which is paid for by a tax INCREASE on the rest.
It's time to reiterate.... Who is greedier? The one that wants to keep more of their earnings, or the one that covets those earnings for himself.

Apart from all that, how many here remember that same exact promise of a middle class tax cut from Clinton? How did that work out for you? Heh.

user-pic

You sound like you belong to the give me something for nothing crowd.

user-pic

c4,

that's him, the kind that feels too much is never enough. The national motto, E Pluribus Unum, goes in the trash can with these people. shooter242 may actually be Phil Gramm.

We need a Fair Tax, and the only Fair Tax would be one where everyone pays the exact dollar amount. Me, Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, all pay, say, $1,000, as does the poor family down the street,as does that elderly widow living on her Social Security check.

I'm sure Bill Gates wants to keep that elderly widow out of his pocket. He works hard for his money! That's why he has so much stashed in off shore accounts.

"Two out of every three United States corporations paid no federal income taxes from 1998 through 2005, according to a report released Tuesday by the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/business/13tax.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&oref=slogin

user-pic

shooter242 asks;

Who is greedier? The one that wants to keep more of their earnings, or the one that covets those earnings for himself.

I'll tell you who's greedier; those that have so much wealth they can use it to buy unfair monetary/tax advantage over others with the
government.

As I said above, its the gang that feels too much is never enough.

On tax day, it's the kind of benefit almost any worker would love. But this one is reserved primarily for the corporate world's top dogs.

Here's how it worked for Richard F. Smith, the chief executive of Atlanta-based Equifax.

In 2006, the newly appointed CEO of the credit reporting company earned a compensation package worth more than $7 million. Included were $80,000 for private club dues, $189,000 for relocation expenses, a $47,000 security system, $20,000 for life and liability insurance, and $13,000 for financial planning.

The Internal Revenue Service considers such perks to be taxable income.

Equifax's directors did what many boards do these days. They awarded him yet another benefit —- "grossing up" his pay by $171,935 to cover the taxes on the perks.

So if I had stock in Equifax I paid for this "tax forgivness act."

user-pic

That's right. If you had stock in Equifax. But apparently you don't, so it's none of your business.

user-pic

shooter242,

heh, heh, heh, that's all you got Bunky?

So if you aren't paying the wealthiest's taxes then what they pay is none of your business.

If I forgave 30 percent of your tax for seven years and then stopped, that wouldn't be a tax increase. Do the math, think with your brain and not your ass.

Just curious...how much do YOU make, shooter? Let us know, and one of us will be happy to do the math for you.

The patriotic thing that Republicans should do is voluntarily cede control and let the adults take over.

Indeed. The Republicans need a few years on the sidelines to work out their issues.

I like this. Let's consider it a timeout for bad behavior.

Righteous/Indignation 2008!!

Give me a break indeed! Thank god for Joe. The Dems have always been overly sensitive when it comes to national security and taxes. Dems will raise your taxes has been a Repub scare tactic for decades.

Once again the Obama/Biden ticket is asking us to think, and act, like adults.

You're right. All Republitards know is fear and smear.

user-pic

Well that's the way that they wage the 'info war'--but when they raise insufficient receivables to meet their payables--what do they do? They borrow money from China. If you are not willing to pay for this war with higher taxes--then fine--we will just borrow the money from China--and your unborn grandchildren will pay off the debt, so tell your children to get busy and make future taxpayers--cause we don't want to pay for what we consume. You don't like taxes. Fine. No taxes. Vote for us. We will impose them on your grandchildren.

Commoner's Laws:

1. There is No such thing as a free lunch.
2. Everything is connected to everything.
3. Everything has to go someplace.
4. Nature knows best

Anybody that tells you you can have it all--government services, wars, financial bailouts, crab mating studies, seal harbour DNA science, a road to nowhere--but we don't have to pay for it--because you don't like to pay taxes--is bullshitting you.

Reagan once said: 'What has posterity ever done for me?' That is what this is really all about.

Tell it like it is. Stop the Bullshit. Somebody has to pay. Is it going to be any of us? Who then?

Gotta love Biden's "bad cop" to Obama's "good cop" ... works out great: you get the truth with or without teeth.

Either way, you get the truth... and this tax issue needs to get pounded in (Obama will not raise taxes on middle and lower income workers; will LOWER them). Period.

user-pic

How one can be a hawk and rabidly anti-tax in the same breath is mystifying. Income taxes in one form or another have been justified, and levied for millenia - to pay for wars. Tribal chiefs, kings, emperors, presidents...have always had to finance their wars and they've done it by taxing their citizens.

Of course trying to explain that to people who believe that their candidate for vice-president is the nation's foremost authority on energy because she "comes from an energy state" is to unnecessarily tax one's lungs.

LOL.

All of this bullshit to mystify the simple truth, to mythify the simple truth, and to reify it. Enough is too much! Tell it like it is. I hunger for it.I thirst for it. I crave it. I want the simple, plain, truth. I CAN handle it. So can America.

And obviously that simple truth is that SOMEONE ELSE should pay my way.

user-pic

I've always paid my way. 20 odd years ago, when I was the local chairman of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, We wore buttons that said: I'm with the BLE--And I Pay My Own Way.

I am all for raising taxes. I have no problem with it. It bugs me that there are tax loopholes and tax havens. But some people are deluded into thinking they can get away with stuff. They can't. It's a closed system. They may THINK they got away with something, but their blood and their tissues are filled with the same toxic industrial soup as you and I, and, just like you and I their roads lead to the graveyard, as well.

You can't take it with you. Accumulating captial is as useless as piling up river stones. Look at Russert. How many river stones did he pile up for what crimes against the truth. And he drops dead at his desk. What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world if it cost him his soul?

I am all for raising taxes. I have no problem with it. It bugs me that there are tax loopholes and tax havens. But some people are deluded into thinking they can get away with stuff. They can't.

Excuse me.... (snicker) Isn't demanding a tax cut funded by a tax increase on someone else, "getting away with stuff"? Aside from that, people keep telling me I get all sorts of tax loopholes, but are never able to point them out. Why is that?

You can't take it with you. Accumulating captial is as useless as piling up river stones.
I'm sorry C4 but this is just all time dumb. Accumulating capital is how hospitals are built, homes erected, charitable foundations are funded, and universities founded. Without capital accumulation you would not have had a job as an engineer, or a railroad to drive upon.

It's sloppy thinking like this that allows idiots advocating class envy, to ruin economies.

user-pic
Excuse me.... (snicker) Isn't demanding a tax cut funded by a tax increase on someone else, "getting away with stuff"? Aside from that, people keep telling me I get all sorts of tax loopholes, but are never able to point them out. Why is that?

In this particular case, I think Obama is advocating trying to provide some stimulus to the retail economy by giving the lower classes money to spend--maybe on gasoline. And he going to take it from the wealthy classes that won't be hurt very much when it happens--they're they guys that made all the dough going from boom to bust. (You know how Romney made HIS 300 million? He was a vulture.) And this is going to help out the overall economy, rather than sweeten the bank account of the rich, which will be sweetened anyway when the economic tide raises all boats. Something Republicans just can't understand. They think its all about being miserly and gripping every last buck. They never grasp that when the common people have wages to spend, they spend it on the commodities that make the economy go round.



I'm sorry C4 but this is just all time dumb. Accumulating capital is how hospitals are built, homes erected, charitable foundations are funded, and universities founded. Without capital accumulation you would not have had a job as an engineer, or a railroad to drive upon.
It's sloppy thinking like this that allows idiots advocating class envy, to ruin economies.

You are not distinguishing between institutions raising captital to build enterprises, verus private individuals accumulating capital for what, exactly--in many cases rich individuals accumulte more money than they can ever spend in a lifetime. They eat as well as they can eat. Travel first class. Drive the fineest cars. Live in mansions. Float on yachts. Great. But then, they still have so much money they don't know what to do with it. So they give it to their cats. Or to the Mormon church. Or to some museum or university. They could not take it with them. They died. But while they lived--could they have used some of their money to alleviate just a little of the suffering of people who were not as lucky, or not as lucky to be as smart? You think an aristocracy is better? Like with the Bushes, leave all that money to the heirs? Let them grow fat and indolent? What is the point of devoting your life to accumulating billions and billions of dollars, and then complaining about paying some little tax that lets a poor kid get dental care? Have you never read 'A Christmas Carol'. Is it all I, Me, and Mine with you?

Love it or leave it. Pay your taxes here or get out. No more Phil Gramm tax shelters for the America-hating Top 1%'ers.

Love it or leave it. Pay your taxes here or get out. No more Phil Gramm tax shelters for the America-hating Top 1%'ers.

Tax shelter? What tax shelter? The top 1% are paying their share of taxes and part of yours too. You should say thank you, instead of love it or leave it.

user-pic

You should pay more. Just like Herr Schindler at the end of Schindlers list. He realized he could have save more--then it was too late. Will you go to your grave thinking about the starving children you could have fed?

You should pay more.
Considering that the biggest problem facing the poor is obesity, your concerns are misplaced and frankly laughable. Aside from that, you're fitting my definition of greedy to a 'T'.
user-pic

What do you know about the problems of the poor? Have you ever been poor? Have you ever been homeless? Quit reading the propaganda from the Heritage Foundation. I've known their expert on poverty policy for 40 years--it's all a game with them. Robert Rector, (whom I have known since he was a 18-year old card carrying communist), claims that there ARE no poor people in America. You think rich people aren't fat? You think middle class people aren't fat? Your arguments are absurd Republican mythology.

user-pic

Well, Warren Buffet (sp?) was amazed to learn that his secretary is in a higher tax bracket than he is. After reacting with a modicum of genuine shock, he even said that such a thing didn't make any sense.

And that's really the point. The tax code doesn't make any sense. It does favor the extremely rich. Justify that if you can.

And that's really the point. The tax code doesn't make any sense. It does favor the extremely rich. Justify that if you can.
No problem. Buffet doesn't have as much taxable income as his secretary. His money is in dividends and capital gains. Since we're on the subject, how much of the income tax take, do you think the various classes pay for? For instance, how much of all the income tax revenue do you think the top quintile (20%)pays for? How many people do think pay no income taxes at all?
user-pic

shooter,

hedge fund managers pay a tax rate of 15% on the multi million dollar compensation they earn.

When you asked "who is the greedier", its people like this who can buy preferential tax treatment from Congress.

user-pic

Shooter, can you tell me the difference between a monthly dividend check and a monthly rent check? I don't have the former but I do have the latter - which I pay tax on.

Am I right that unearned income is not taxed? If so, I'm getting screwed since that income from my rental property is not earned by the sweat of my brow, yet I have to pay tax on it. I'm obviously being denied the same preferential treatment that my dividend collecting neighbor enjoys. What's the fairness in that?

OTOH when you sell your property you'll only pay 15% on the gain. Besides, aren't you enjoying all the nice tax benefits of depreciation, and real estate related expenses? As for dividends, you'll have to write your congressman, but between you and me, if you buy a nice muni bond fund you can avoid ALL the taxes. And get a better return to boot.

user-pic

I get that untaxed dividends cannot be justified - at least by you. As far as 'write-offs' on rental property go, kinda like saying aren't you glad you're deathly ill - think of all the tax deductions you'll get to take.

I don't mean to whine, but it's time for you to give back that tax cut you were given for no reason, and pay for this war that your beloved George W. Bush started. It's called responsibility. We're throwing bull$hit thinkers like you and Grover Norquist out of Washington. Have a nice trip. (PS - Your dog is cool. But your ideas are a pile of dog crap on the front lawn of America.)