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The Absent Presence

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Let me begin this second round by noting an event in a parallel universe: Thomas Sowell's attack yesterday on Obama in National Review Online. The column is entitled "The Galbraith Effect" and it's not, alas, about my book. Here's how it begins:

"Many years ago, when I was a college student, I took a course from John Kenneth Galbraith. On the first day of class, Professor Galbraith gave a brilliant opening lecture, after which the students gave him a standing ovation. Galbraith kept on giving brilliant opening lectures the whole semester. But, instead of standing ovations, there were now dwindling numbers of students and some of them got up and walked out in the middle of his lectures. Galbraith never got beyond the glittering generalities that marked his first lecture. After a while, the students got tired of not getting any real substance. Senator Barack Obama's campaign this year reminds me very much of that course from Professor Galbraith."

Thomas Sowell graduated from Harvard in 1958. It's therefore likely that the course he took was a chapter-by-chapter preview of The Affluent Society, published that year. Such was JKG's teaching habit, in those days. The book was an epic bestseller and is still in print.

Sowell's fatuous little opening is of course a parody of the "brilliant opening lecture" that never gets "beyond the glittering generalities." Notice how, unlike his contemporaries, he sat through it all, observing carefully the empty seats. Notice also how he can read the minds of his fellow students, so eager for "real substance." My father's failings as a teacher must have been quite a topic, late at night in those Harvard dorms.

One could go on to discuss the stupid claim Sowell tries to make against Obama's economics, in defense of lower taxes on the very rich: that "experience has shown that the government typically collected more revenue from a lower capital-gains tax rate than from a higher rate." He does not bother to cite evidence, and the case has been exhaustively debunked (calling Brad DeLong!) since long ago. But that's not my reason for raising it.

Rather, what's interesting about this snippet is what was not said, but what is missing, what Peter Dale Scott calls the "negative template." Does Sowell make any claim that a low capital gains tax supports investment, saving or work effort? No, he does not. That topic has disappeared. The claim he does make, is about tax revenue. Since when was this a priority for a conservative? Hasn't he heard of starving the beast?

And this is followed, after a bit, by a passing reference to "lower levels of economic activity and fewer jobs." That reference is unmistakably Keynesian. Well, who brought Keynes to America? My father, who went to Cambridge in 1937 to study The General Theory, has a pretty strong claim. Maybe, just maybe, Tom Sowell did learn something in that class, over fifty years ago.

In any event, the reference should remind us, by its presence and their absence, of the more recent supply-side fallacies that he has obviously, conveniently, and wisely forgotten.

****

Michael Lind challenged me to say a few words about the origins of the liberal surrender to the market mind-mush. Several comments already took this up, and made valuable points. Clearly the Cold War liberals did realize that they had to defeat the Soviet Union by developing a more effective economic model, and with the experience of the Depression fresh in their minds they did not delude themselves that this could be done through free markets. So they remained substantially loyal to the New Deal. The last New Dealer was Lyndon Johnson, a protean figure who becomes more interesting with every biography.

The Cold War liberals also took a New Deal outlook, at least in principle, toward the developing world: just for instance, Walt Rostow's Stages of Economic Growth was a Cold War document, subtitled, "A Non-Communist Manifesto;" the message (for better or worse) was that everyone could take the American path. Much later, the impending end of the Cold War made the Third World safe for the neoliberal "Washington Consensus," with consequences well-told by Joe Stiglitz and by Naomi Klein. The rise in inequality throughout the world since 1980 emerges in detail in my own research, on the web-site of the University of Texas Inequality Project (if you're interested, just click on the world map).

But what happened in economics and in the 1960s and 1970s is what I know best, because it was the world I grew up in. My father was already a senior adviser in 1960 - at 52 he was old enough to have started work in Washington in 1934 and to have played a major role during the Second World War. The avatars of the New Economics - Samuelson, Solow, Tobin - were younger. And the split in the Kennedy administration was between that group on one side, who favored tax cuts to stimulate the private economy, and my father on the other, who favored an expansive program of public spending and investment designed to realize the program that was implicit in The Affluent Society - which was, after all, a critique of basing the economy on private purchasing power.

JKG observed (in a remark rediscovered by Bruce Bartlett) that tax-cut Keynesianism would prove fatally attractive, converting Hooverite Republicans to Keynes and seducing liberals by the speed and efficiency with which the economy could be goosed toward full employment. This argument was replayed in every debate over stimulus packages ever since, including in the offices of Henry Reuss, where I worked from the mid-1970s through the early 1980s. Early this year, I helped persuade John Edwards to denounce the "stimulus package" Congress passed, on the ground that it would buy a little time but solve no fundamental problems, while making those problems more difficult to face up to next year. But JKG lost the argument in the 1960s (partly because he was in India, where Kennedy needed him for foreign policy reasons), and the Galbraithians have lost it pretty much ever since. That should change.

In the 1960s, academic economics was a discussion among what seems, by modern standards, an almost incredibly diverse collection of intellectual giants. Paul Samuelson was at the peak of his influence. At MIT there was also Bob Solow, at Yale there was Jim Tobin, at Harvard in addition to my father there were Wassily Leontief and Simon Kuznets, at Chicago there was Milton Friedman. There was also a recognized dissident tradition: radical economics, loosely drawing on Marx. At the other Cambridge, there were Nicholas Kaldor and Joan Robinson, both of whom closely linked to Keynes.

But the early 1970s were an academic disaster for the mainstream American Keynesians - the New Economists of the Kennedy Council and their associates and friends. This is an old story by now, of how they had built an intellectual edifice on a flimsy empirical contraption -- the Phillips Curve trade-off between inflation and unemployment -- and how they collapsed when it did. It is difficult now to reconstruct just how powerful and devastating the Friedman-monetarist critique of standard American Keynesianism seemed in those days; doubts about Friedman's logic and evidence lay in the future.

The result was the right-wing takeover of academic economics, which predated the rise of Reaganism and provided a deep economic bench for the political right when it finally took power. But now the Old Keynesians were the recognized opposition - if any opposition was to be tolerated at all, it would be them. And they devoted much of the rest of their careers - Tobin and to his death and Solow to this very day - to the fight against the academic far right. In this, they did great work. But they also had little tolerance for theoretical deviations on their left. And the great diversity that economics had enjoyed, largely disappeared. Leontief and my father left almost no academic successors, and a great figure like Robert Eisner received less attention than he deserved.

By the end of the 1970s, the old Keynesians were an exhausted group: beaten in academic life, and beaten in politics. I don't think very many of them were all that sad to retreat to the academy, or to Brookings, when Carter was forced from office in 1980. Their chief intellectual descendants now are Joe Stiglitz and Paul Krugman - both very brilliant, and both brought up in the tradition of "don't look left." Paul, in particular, has been hit with some harsh knocks here, and back in those days we too had our tiffs.

These days, I'm a Stiglitz - Krugman loyalist, to the last breath. For two reasons. First, both Joe and Paul were mugged by reality. For Joe, this happened at the Council of Economic Advisers, and then at World Bank. For Paul, it happened when he found himself, in the gray dawn of the Bush era, sitting on the world's most valuable piece of newspaper real estate, a column at the New York Times.

Both rose to history. Joe Stiglitz issued a magnificent critique of neoliberal economics on the developing world, and has followed that with a fine book (with Linda Bilmes) on the costs of the Iraq War. And Paul has been, year in and year out, the relentless voice of us all, facing down every sort of abuse. So even if we were still in fundamental disagreement over theory, I would have buried those disagreements for the length of the war.

The second reason, is that both Joe and Paul have changed their views, at least up to a point. The financial crisis, especially, imposes a New Deal viewpoint on the world. It moves one away from the textbook formulae of the financially-stable 1960s, toward the monetary-theorist Keynes of the 1930s. And, the reality of the predator state is something that both have observed, first-hand.

For these reasons, I'm almost optimistic. Economics may have a future. To answer Sid's question: yes the shackles of the predator state can be broken.

Finally: a word of thanks to Sid, Maggie, Susan, Mike, Tom and Max. Of course. Certainly no author ever got better treatment. So far, anyway.


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I'm glad you brought up Sowell's article. I read it over at Free Republic a few days ago and wondered how you'd respond.


In any event, the reference should remind us, by its presence and their absence, of the more recent supply-side fallacies that he has obviously, conveniently, and wisely forgotten.


But lots of things have been forgotten.

Struggle as the New Deal did, it could not bring back the employment levels of the 1920's. The United States, until 1941, was to be plagued with wholesale unemployment and the need to administer a huge relief program.

from Donald R. McCoy's "Coming of Age" (1973)


So I wouldn't be too anxious to hold up Keynesian liberalism as a glorious remedy for the failings of supply-side economics.

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But isn't deficit war spending intrinsically Keynesian--doesn't your point illustrate that the only problem was the Roosevelt was being Keynesian enough?

@ vorkosignan1


Obviously, spending on armaments and soldiers enabled us to return to full employment, just as it worked for the Nazis 6 or 7 years prior. AND. The near total war-time destruction of Europe enabled us to maintain full-employment for years after the war ended.


The trick is to do that without wars. So far, it hasn't been possible. Not all the tricks funny money and deficits and inflation have been able to put humpty-dumpty back together again.

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Sowell thinks McCain is liar so I guess he gets an A for insight. And Sowell seems to agree with Wesley Clark on McCain's war experience vis vis the Presidency.....maybe much to Bob Scheifer's chagrin.

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"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."


John Kenneth Galbraith

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
This is one of the all time semantic swindles. Selfishness is not self interest. Self interest is the star around which every persons life revolves. Your occupation is a matter of self interest, saving for the future is a matter of self interest, the kind of person your spouse is, is a matter of self interest.

If you have a valid argument, smearing the speaker as a bad person isn't required to make a point. Galbraith obviously does not have a valid argument.

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Shooter,

An equitable (defined somehow) distribution of the country's wealth is a matter of self interest, without it, people start sharpening the guillotine.

Not to mention a rising crime rate.

Galbraith obviously does not have a valid argument.

His argument may be different than yours, but that doesn't mean its not valid.

Shooter, An equitable (defined somehow) distribution of the country's wealth is a matter of self interest, without it, people start sharpening the guillotine.
It's telling that you reach back almost three centuries to a repressive monarchy as a cautionary example. Worse, you acknowledge that an "equitable" system isn't even defined. No, there will not be any guillotines. Nor is there any hue and cry for income equality.
Not to mention a rising crime rate.
Do you have a cite for that assertion? I thought that the crime rate, like global warming was diminishing. Interestingly, the crime rate for a given location has been linked to section 8 housing, not income inequality. I'd give you a cite, but that seems to trigger a quarantine by the blog. Google "section 8 crime"
His argument may be different than yours, but that doesn't mean its not valid.
Yes it does. It's equivalent to saying something like... Modern philosophy is revolves around the liberal penchant for totalitarianism.

It makes an unproved assertion while smearing liberals as tyrant wannabees. That, is not a valid argument.

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shooter says:

It's telling that you reach back almost three centuries to a repressive monarchy as a cautionary example.

Russian Revolultion. 1917

China take your pick, I'll go with 1949

Irish revolution 1916

Interestingly, the crime rate for a given location has been linked to section 8 housing, not income inequality.

That argument is laughable.

As to the rise in crime I mentioned, it was an opinion based on the idea that as more and more of the country's wealth is concentrated at the top
one would expect a rise in crime due to people having less than an abject poverty existance, and avoiding that would be a matter of "self interest."
The Irish Republican Army was a classic example of this.

Isn't this what Victor Hugo's Les Miserables was all about?

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oops. I forgot to blockquote the end.

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The most devastating argument FOR economic planning is the primary engine of the US economy: the Pentagon. Half of our taxes go to some kind of military boondoggle or another.

That is completely planned, 'command and control' system.

BTW: Offensivetoyou:

Read JKG's biography. In it you will discover a few 'inconvenient truths' for the GOP mythmakers:

The New Deal programs were working like a charm - really, they HAD to. Unemployment was falling quickly. Until the GOP in congress pressed for "fiscal discipline" in 1936 and they cut the full employment 'forced spending' model.

In fact, the WWII example is just another example of Keynes ideas working exactly as advertised.

See, during WWII, they nationalized industry and the government formed a command and control economy with price controls. This wasn't a 'free market' in any way.

And yet conservatives cite WWII efforts as evidence of the 'free market' taking over from the New Deal.

The fact is, the whole nationalization of the US economy of WWII was just an example where full employment was combined with 'forced saving' (rationing and buying bonds) and it totally proves Keynes and Galbraith RIGHT.

@ King Elvis


In the latter days of communism there was a saying among the Russians


"We pretended to work. They pretended to pay us"


See Elvis, those who live under a system generally know more about it than left-wing, sheltered academics.


Unemployment
Unemployment Data at the bottom of the page. When you add in those employed by various government make work projects unemployment hardly dropped between 33 and 41.


The point is that FDR and the NEW DEAL were unsuccessful in restarting the private economy so few new jobs were generated. Obviously you can fake it by providing all sorts of make work, some useful, some not, some efficiently run, most not...and you can do it until the money runs out because most of these jobs do not generate profit for the employer.


Now maybe someone can figure out a system where all work is truly useful, where everyone's efforts can be traded for everyone else's efforts at mutually acceptable rates. So far, no one has. A few people have skills that generate ideas and products useful to everyone. A lot of people have some skills...and a large number - perhaps 20 or 30 percent of the population have nothing that anyone else wants enough to pay for.

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offensivetoyou:

One other thing you never hear about the '30s economy was that worker productivity really went through the roof.

We've experienced similar productivity gains in the past 15 or so years, but shouldn't that benefit go to worker pay? No it hasn't. The 'free market' as we know it does not reward virtuous hard work - or even just highly productive labor.

In fact, when you consider that the banking de-regulation (Glass Steagal repeal) was done in the name of the 'free market' what it did was actually just take money from homebuyers and give it to the Wall Street vampires.

This profit was simply the fruits of the 'labor' of the Wall Street go-go boys putting the arm on the congress (+ B Clinton) for goodies. Hardly Adam Smith's pin factory.

@ kingelvis


I don't know anything about '30s productivity...but modern productivity has certainly taken off because of advances in technology. Those who work in that area have been handsomely rewarded, many becoming rich or fabulously rich. Those who were displaced by that technology, and there were many, have joined millions of others whose jobs were exported overseas. They are now eating shit. However, those overseas workers are doing very well. You have only to look at China and India for proof.


It's clear we are in a new era. No one knows how to best adapt. The new economy will be some kind of hybred, some mixture of government and private enterprise, whose nature will be determined by experiment, by trial and error.


So forget that tired old leftist crap. It's like studying phrenology, or necromancy, or alchemy, or astrology. You can make a life of it...but why would you want to? Give up the constant search for rich thieves to blame for your troubles (They exist, of course, but so do poor thieves) and do something more creative.

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And here's what that tired old history lead me too:

According to Nobel Laureate and Washington University Professor of Economic History C. Douglas North's book, "Structure and Change in Economic History", the fall of the Roman Empire resulted from the concentration of wealth and power. Wealth and power became extremely concentrated; the wealthy and powerful then used their influence to avoid paying taxes. Rome was unable to fund large enough armies at a time when size would have made a difference. A civilized empire of 50 million people with all the resources of western civilization fell to roving bands of barbarians resulting in a 500 year dark age.

The amazing thing about this is the people who had the most to lose by the collapse of a state that recognized property rights, the wealthy and powerful, were the ones least willing to fund its perpetuation.

The same phenomena occurred in medieval Japan, except in this case, there was no external threat existed. The state just collapsed. At first the wealthy hired mercenaries, but at some point the mercenaries helped themselves to the wealthy's estates. The result: a 200 hundred year feudal dark age.

After 1025, A similar situation brought the demise of the medieval Byzantine Empire before the battle of Manzikert handing all of Anatolia to Turks and triggering the crusades.

This pattern manifests as early as the collapse of ancient Egyptian kingdoms and cast a shadow over the collapse of Hapsburg Spain, Bourbon France, Romanov Russia – and the onset of the Great Depression which lead directly to Hitler's rise, World War II and the Holocaust.

As Churchill suggested in 1940 in his "Finest Hour" speech, a new dark age was narrowly averted. I want to emphasize this last point: Republican policies in the 1920s lead directly to the Great Depression, the rise of the Nazis, World War II and the holocaust.

Now those reckless policies are in vogue again and we're are seeing the rapid collapse of American power as a result. Consider that only 10 years ago Russia was at it's post war nader, in part because of the embrace of Neoliberal economics under Yeltsin while the United States was at an historical epigee - not just for the United States, but for all of history. Now ten years later, a Russia revitalized, in part for turning it's back on neoliberal economics in favor of more pragmatic approaches, marches into Georgia with little respect or concern over the opinions of now hobbled United States.

The real problem for the United States is that it is based upon only one principle: Free Contract.

In such a society bargaining power is everything. Anyone who has seen there own bargaining power ebb and flow know this intrinsically. Indeed everything that goes on around us, from personal grooming to advertising and lobbying in congress has to do with various individuals or groups trying to advance their bargaining power.

Prior to the Civil War, the U.S. had about the broadest distribution of wealth in world history, even with slavery in the south (the slaves having no bargaining power). Despite fighting the civil war to end slavery, 25 years after the war ended the distribution of wealth was concentrated at unprecedented levels.

Some of this has to do with the closing of the fronteer. But most of this has to do with the invention of the modern limited liability corporation during the civil war years. Corporations are a collective, and as such, they have bargaining power advantages over individuals. The United States will continue to flirt with disaster of epic proportions as long as it doesn't have a remedy for the bargaining power disparity created by the limited liability corporation.

During the New Deal era, this was solved by Industry Trade Unions. However this solution no longer holds. The Japanese have found an alternative model: Company unions + Employee Tenure. Japan has the broadest distribution of wealth amongst all major economies as well as perhaps the most competitive organizations. It should be noted that this model alters corporate behavior - while ostensibly both Japanese and American corporations function under the rule of shareholder primacy, in practice American corporations are 'executive primacy' and the Japanese are 'employee primayc'. As it turns out employees are a better proxy for long term shareholders interest then the American model because they both seek long term market share expansion.

On a final note, it should be pointed out that in his 'Finest Hour' speech, Churchill suggested that if the English could prevail, not only a new dark age averted, but a new golden age might appear. Between 1945 and 1973 global productivity more than doubled. In less than 30 years, where liberal economics was wide spread, the world economy grew more than it had the prior 10,000 years.

The track record of wealth concentration is one littered with epic disasters through out the entirety of history and geography. The track record of liberal economics is stupendence. Thanks to the likes of JKG, Churchill's 'Finest Hour' speech proved truly profound and prophetic. The 30 years following World War II, in art, science, literature, learning, economics, engineering, was the most golden of history's golden ages.

The ever-repeating pattern of concentrated wealth and an accompanying unwillingness to pay taxes to sustain the state are characteristics that have preceded most epic collapses in history. Most remarkable, those with the most to lose, the wealthy and powerful, are consistently the least willing to sustain the state.

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Tim,

excellent post, thanks.

I'll check back to see if anyone disputes your analysis and how convincing they sound.

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Thanks.

There won't be any substantive counter arguments - only collateral counter arguments due to sloppiness on my part. I appologize to all here for that, but I am a man of limited resources and commenting here is just a hobby - I save my good stuff for more important things, like when I'm being paid.

The point about the Romans is disputed. Some say that it's collapse was the result of the collapse of Rome's commercial economy. I would argue that that is the same thing. When wealth concentrates, demand collapses, and when it does, so does the commercial economy. The only few people with disposable money create boutique levels of demand. Additionally there is revisionist history being undertaken by the intellectual foot soldiers of the far right. But to conclude anything else to be correct, other than what I have said here, means you have to take things out of context. That context suggest that Rome controlled all the resources of the Western world, and at the time the Western world began in Armenia, and included all of North Africa, Anatolia and the Levant. There's no way that wondering bands of landless people should be able to prevail - also consider that Rome in the time of Hannibal, restricted to only the resources of the Italian pennisula, at a much earlier time, was able to throw massive army after massive army at Hannibal. The concentration of wealth did to Rome what it does to Banana Republics - strip them of their will to fight.

Incidentally, another point I forgot to make is that Islam is, in part, a reaction to concentrated wealth in the city of Mecca in the 6th and 7th century. In fact it's one of the few successful internal reactions to concentrated wealth (the New Deal is another example, but it appears to only have been a temporary gain - in fact the United States as a super power was a byproduct of Roosevelt's gift, something this nation will learn in the next 20 years if McCain manages to win).

The point here is that concentrated wealth always leads to epic societal disaster. In many cases entire civilizations disappear as a result. As Roosevelt said, "It's not just immoral, its bad policy too" (paraphrased from memory).

If there is one subject people should have to learn in school in order to be a citizen, it is civics. If there is one point in civics that people should have to learn its the sad history of concentrated wealth (the second would be the sad history of conjoining religion and civics).

Free contract is a good principle. But in all instances where freedom and liberty are concerned, the principle is worthless without fairness.

Wiesenthaler, I think said it correctly, 'without justice there is only tyranny.'

Freedom with out fairness is neither. Freedom with out fairness makes for the tyranny of might makes right.

In the case of economics, free contract is good only if bargaining takes place on a level playing field. That's what the history of the last 150 years is all about.

The economic arguments here have to do with ways of compensating for the fact that the bargaining field has become unfair and tilted towards one side. When this happens all the marbles slide to one side. When that happens we step into the Romans' shoes. Republicans, even learned or educated ones, don't seem to care. They don't have to stretch back to the ancient Egyptians, they can just look at their own short history. R

Republicans see the 1920s as Pollyanna. Like salmon swimming upstream, they are swimming back to 1929. To do so they have to swim past World War II, the holocaust, the rise of Hitler, all things that their policies helped to trigger - and they simply ignore it all.

They way I like to see it, the more wealth concentration occurs, the more it's like standing up in a canoe. Sooner or later sudden, epic, collapse will occur when the canoe tips over. However, fairness is the outrigger that takes a highly unstable cannoe and makes it immensley stable.

How we achieve stability of fairness is what this discussion is all about, but the real problem I think is getting people to realize the importance and role the principle of fairness plays. Republicans simply, and joyfully, ignore it - setting in motion the seeds of their own, and unfortunately, our own destruction.

By the way I think the sub-Prime loans debacle is a micro-example of this phenomena, where suddenly wealthy individualist realize socialism isn't so bad after all. At that point it's socialism for them, parsimony for everyone else.



Hey, I put up the shares of the tax burden link up, and haven't heard a peep out of either of you. I should think you'd be happy to find out the wealthy are carrying their end of the log and a good bit of yours too.

The ever-repeating pattern of concentrated wealth and an accompanying unwillingness to pay taxes to sustain the state are characteristics that have preceded most epic collapses in history. Most remarkable, those with the most to lose, the wealthy and powerful, are consistently the least willing to sustain the state.
Oh brother. You'll be glad to learn that this isn't a problem in the US. Herethe rich as defined by the top 20% of households paid 86% of the income tax, 69% of all Fed taxes (including SS and Medicare) while earning 55% of the income.

Obviously, any claims you care to make that the wealthy aren't paying taxes, is laughingly bogus.

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The claim isn't the rich aren't paying taxes.

The real problem is concentration of wealth.

That occurs from an imbalance in bargaining power.

That creates unnecessary suffering and squalor for our fellow citizens - many have families, children, parents, to support.

I find it shocking that you don't acknowledge the problem this represents. Obviously, you just don't care about other people. As Roosevelt said, "it's not just immoral, but it's also bad econonomics."

When wealth is well distributed, people can afford to feed, house, cloth, educate their families. They can more than provide, they can take them on vacations, spend more time with them, you then have a less disfunctional family.

Even more, when wealth is distributed, not only do the poor get richer, but every body get's richer.

And when every body is richer, the Rich do not have to share as much of the tax burden simply because they have all the money - every body bears a little more of the tax burder so the wealthy don't have too.

And regardless as to your statements, I've read in multiple places in the past that Warren Buffet pays about the same amount of tax, perhaps a little less then, his secretary.

I also have a friend who is rich. He lives off of $70k a year, and pays about $700 in federal taxes. That's it. Even he realizes that our system is bad and wrong.

So a more stable society where every body lives better, what's not to like?

Oh, maybe its that you have to share power with lowly people, some of them being brown, black or hispanic. I can see no other reason for embracing regressive economics.

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Uh oh.

I thought I'd engage with offensivetoyou, and it only took him two posts to make it about how I'm a loser.

Thanks buddy. I thought, "I'm going to respond to this guy in good faith"

Then it became about how I'm poor or something.

Fuck off dick. Seriously. Fuck your ass.

@ KingElvis


After all this time you still don't get it.


I quote something from Prof Donald R. McCoy's book, written in 1973, and you responds with

'inconvenient truths' for the GOP mythmakers:

I know damned well you don't have a clue as to the identity of McCoy (Prof. Donald R. McCoy, among other things Fullbright Professor at the University of Bonn in the '50s or '60s) so where do you get off characterizing him that way?


You follow with

See, during WWII...

speaking down, as if to a retarded child


And then, even though, I've parodied you in my response, trying to tell you to stop, you say

the Wall Street vampires


If you want a serious argument, you've got to be serious. People who characterize this administration, or the Israelis, or anybody they don't like as Nazis, racists, chimps, etc. are going to get it back from me in spades.


True, rude slander is coin of the realm in politics. True, everyone does it. But then don't pretend you don't, and don't complain when someone gives you a ration of the same shit.

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The New Deal programs were working like a charm - really, they HAD to. Unemployment was falling quickly. Until the GOP in congress pressed for "fiscal discipline" in 1936 and they cut the full employment 'forced spending' model. KingElvis

In 1936 the Republican Party held less than 25% of the House; they held 25 of 96 Senate seats.

Can you explain how this "powerful" bloc managed to force "fiscal discipline" on your hero?

@ Ellen


Good catch. I wondered about that too. If Galbraith really made that claim then Sowell was being generous.

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KingElvis's central point, which you have not chosen to dispute, was that the New Deal programs were extremely successful and that the failure some attribute to them really stems from their having been jettisoned against FDR's wishes. Attributing the sabotage of these programs to conservatives is just icing on the cake for KE. You and Ellen seem to think you've achieved some rhetorical triumph but it's just standard rightwing misdirection (or perhaps you don't realize you missed the point).

And as for the 25% figure, if a legislative move is backed by 100% of the republicans and 33% of the Democrats, to whom do you attribute its success? The Democrats, the majority of whom were opposed? I assume this is beside the point -- that it was really actions of the Supreme Court that were decisive -- but citing this figure does not even prove your point against KingElvis.

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As I've said before in response to all these FDR groupies ---

But I should add that Rex Tugwell was wrong if he was implying that the programs actually worked.

@ David Houghten


First of all, I did dispute Elvis' central point by noting that unemployment didn't really drop until WWII started. How come you didn't notice?


Second, it depends on what you mean by really successful. When FDR took over the country was on the verge of falling apart. He prevented that...and that counts as great success. He also put millions to work on infrastructure projects, most of which turned out to be of great use to subsequent generations...another great success. Those two alone qualify him as one of our great leaders. In addition he funded many interesting arts projects, and I'm sure many other worthwhile projects, and orchestrated our entry into and conduct during WWII masterfully. All in all, a great, great President.


But he didn't solve the problems of the depression, he didn't make our economy function.

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First of all, I did dispute Elvis' central point by noting that unemployment didn't really drop until WWII started. How come you didn't notice?

Oh, right. I stand corrected.

On the other hand, I don't think your argument on this point is too strong. Government employment should be counted as unemployment for the purposes of counting the unemployed? You seem to think there's *some* value in the work these unemployed suckers were paid for -- art and scenic overlooks and such. Is everything they did non-work because the motive for hiring them was tainted? I didn't realize economists took such things into account. Do they do this for all employment or just government jobs? If some sad sack is hired by his uncle out of pity, do the statisticians ferret this out?

@ david houghton


We gotta work with the data we have and, as you note, a lot of it isn't too hot.


The assumption is that an employer hires someone because it increases his profits. If it doesn't he's engaging in charity.


It gets more complicated when the government does the hiring, especially when the purpose is to create useful infrastructure. But the idea is the same; if the employees don't create something which generates more revenue than costs, it's charity, not employment.

@ David Houghton


I say it gets more complicated because the government is charged with a lot of tasks that are not meant to be profitable; legislating, judging, regulating, policing, protecting, conserving.


Analyzing the financing of such tasks is no easy matter. Some of them ARE charity. Some are insurance. Some are simply part of the cost of doing business, of running a society with rules, laws, order, various sorts of protection.


But either the government takes in enough to cover the costs of these activities...or it doesn't.
If the latter, there will ultimately be big, big, trouble.

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Can you explain how this "powerful" bloc managed to force "fiscal discipline" on your hero?

You are right and King Elvis wrong. It was the still conservative Supreme Court, not Congress, that shut down many New Deal programs.

[T]he Supreme Court of the United States repeatedly invalidated elements of his New Deal by decisions finding those elements unconstitutional, including the Agricultural Adjustment Act in United States v. Butler et al (1936) and the National Recovery Administration in Schechter Poultry Corp. v. United States (1935).

And even with his landslide victory, FDR could not convince enough people to support his .

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oops...lost the link.

FDR's court-packing bill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary_Reorganization_Bill_of_1937

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I lost a link like that last night. Note: if readers roll over the period, they can get to the link.

Do you have any idea of what we did wrong -- if anything?

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Do you have any idea of what we did wrong -- if anything?

Not a clue.

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Emma --

IIRC the cases you mention are "Contract Clause" cases. They should not have had much, if any, effect on KingElvis's "full employment 'forced spending' model."

On the other hand it might be argued that Roosevelt himself backed away from the "model" unsure of how the New Deal was being received out on the hustings and fearful that he would be painted too leftist in the upcoming election.

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Ellen,

what do you think the public thought of FDR?

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Ask FDR what he thought the "public thought" of him before the results of the 1936 election came in.

You may be surprised at his answer.

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Ellen replies;

Ask FDR what he thought the "public thought" of him before the results of the 1936 election came in.

You may be surprised at his answer.

Ellen, why not simply say "I don't wish to answer your question?"

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For a bright guy, JohnW1141, sometimes you're awfully slow.

We are arguing over what actions Roosevelt took in 1936 to bolster his reelection hopes. Since he was the actor in question it is his beliefs which are material. The public's (say, 60% plus for FDR) are of no interest.

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Ellen says:

For a bright guy, JohnW1141, sometimes you're awfully slow.

We are arguing over what actions Roosevelt took in 1936 to bolster his reelection hopes.

Ellen, you disappoint me. You didn't comprehend that I changed the argument with my question.

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If you want to "change the argument," JohnW1141, you are required to establish your own thread or subthread.

It's only good blog-commenting manners.

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Ellen says;

If you want to "change the argument," JohnW1141, you are required to establish your own thread or subthread.

It's only good blog-commenting manners

tsk, tsk, tsk. If that was the standard, we'd have only 3 or 4 replies to every article.

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fearful that he would be painted too leftist in the upcoming election.

LOL

Too leftist? Besides Alf Landon,the Republican candidate, FDR ran against

- a Socialist
- a Communist
- the Union Party.

The Union Party was a fusion of Franics Townsend, Father Coughlin and Gerald Smith, Huey Long's Share the Wealth partner.


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Exactly my point.

In 1936 FDR went out of his way -- as it turned out (but he couldn't have known it at the time) way out of his way -- to grab the center by moving rightward.

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With those guys to the left and the American Liberty League to the right, FDR had a broader range within which to maneuver than most presidents.

The majority of Democrats nowadays are happy to be considered fiscally conservative or libertarian. Sometimes I long for a new Huey Long for no other reason than to stir things up, to challenge conventional wisdom and open up the economic Overton window. I would, however, prefer his next incarnation be less of a megalomanical demagogue than the last.

The fact is, the whole nationalization of the US economy of WWII was just an example where full employment was combined with 'forced saving' (rationing and buying bonds) and it totally proves Keynes and Galbraith RIGHT.
Oh brother. It was also right to drop two nukes on Japan. That doesn't make it good. Citing a wartime environment as justification for peace time coercion is just inane. Jeebus.
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Not too good at this stuff, are you, shooter?

who cares what uncle tom sowell says

sowell is a hypocritical token repuglitard who has no concept of reality

so let uncle tom sowell spew his propaganda

like I care that your father's course was too complicated for uncle tom sowell to grasp

you could fill a whole bunch of books with the stuff uncle tom sowell can't inderstand

@ free patriot


Disagreement is common among economists because it is not yet a science. However there is no doubt Thomas Sowell is a brilliant man. His "Ethnic America" was the best book on the subject at the time and still rates very, very highly.


In any case it is certain that a moron like you is incapable of judging him. Why don't you stick to a task more suited to your abilities...like keeping your fingernails clean.

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offensivetoyou bloviates;

"blockquote> In any case it is certain that a moron like you is incapable of judging him. Why don't you stick to a task more suited to your abilities...like keeping your fingernails clean.

More in-depth analysis and commentary from OTY, heh heh heh.

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Were I offensivetoyou I wouldn't be replying to free patriot's contentless typing exercises.

And were I you I wouldn't go after him unless I was willing to be fair enough to go after free patriot, as well.

Unless, of course, you find free patriot's comment -- insightful. Do you?

@ Ellen


Forget it, Ellen. I replied to Free Patriot because that "Uncle Tom" slur really pissed me off. Johnwjackass is in the same class. A couple of threads ago I took the time to find out who he was. Now I just ignore him.

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Ellen says:

Were I offensivetoyou I wouldn't be replying to free patriot's contentless typing exercises.

And were I you I wouldn't go after him unless I was willing to be fair enough to go after free patriot, as well.

Unless, of course, you find free patriot's comment -- insightful. Do you?

Ellen, to "be fair", I usually "go after" offensivetoyou because of his vicious personal insults to people who post here, usually not because of the opinion he offers on the subject matter of the moment. And to "be fair" to freepatriot, he didn't throw any vicious personal insult at OTY now, did he?

As I said to OTY in a recent post (paraphrase)I never ran into anyone online who was so vicious and full of venom as he is.

free patriot gave his opinion of Sowell, and its not any more or less "contentless" than many opinions expressed by offensivetoyou tossed at "lefties" or, in particular, at MJ Rosneberg.

Now, is that fair?


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free patriot gave his opinion of Sowell

I guess you're right. As they say, "Opinions are like ______s; everyone has one.

Of course it would be nice if they were occasionally supported by a fact or two.

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Ellen,

permit me an afterthought;

Look at this post by FTY, and take note of the second paragraph


@ free patriot


Disagreement is common among economists because it is not yet a science. However there is no doubt Thomas Sowell is a brilliant man. His "Ethnic America" was the best book on the subject at the time and still rates very, very highly.


In any case it is certain that a moron like you is incapable of judging him. Why don't you stick to a task more suited to your abilities...like keeping your fingernails clean.

Posted by offensivetoyou
August 13, 2008 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink

Ask yourself why he felt the need to add that second paragraph, or, what kind of person would feel the need to add that second paragraph.

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King Elvis wrote:

"Now maybe someone can figure out a system where all work is truly useful, where everyone's efforts can be traded for everyone else's efforts at mutually acceptable rates. So far, no one has. A few people have skills that generate ideas and products useful to everyone. A lot of people have some skills...and a large number - perhaps 20 or 30 percent of the population have nothing that anyone else wants enough to pay for."

The notion that 20 or 30 percent of the population has "nothing to offer that anyone else wants enough to pay for" assumes that the way we value labor is based on some rational scale of what labor is worth.

There is a different,very simple way of looking at labor that puts people on a level playing field: the time dollar. One dollar equals one hour of labor.

I am not suggesting that this is an answer to how we should value labor. (Galbraith is provocative on how a predator state values labor, and if I can I'll write about that later this week).

But I do think that the time dollar serves as a useful thought experiment which underlines the fact that the value of the dollar itself is imaginary, while the way we assess how many of these imaginary dollars should be awarded for a particular service is largely "whimsical" (This is the word that some on the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission have
used to describe how we decide how much to pay specialists for different services.)

A community that uses time dollars to barter for goods and services doesn't try to differentiate between the time it takes for an elderly woman to bake a cake, "from scratch," and the time it takes a plumber to fix her plumbing.

They simply exchange services--as they do in Ithaca New York, where the time dollar is called "the Ithaca dollar".

This is a system that recognizes that the amount we pay plumbers in conventional dollars is, to some degree a function of the fact that when one needs a plumber, one really Needs a plumberm and the fact that licensing has had the unintended conseuqence of keeping the supply of plumbers always just behind the demand for plumbers

By contrast, the value of a cake baked, even if "from scratch," in a home kithcen is work that generations of women have done for free. Those women are I suppose, part of the 20 percent to 30 percent of the population that has" nothing to offer that anyone wants to pay for."

If the cake came from a bakery or restaurant that had been well-advertised and promoted, it might have great value: prestige commands dollars.

But in a community that recognizes "time-value dollars" there are, in the words of the man who invented the concept: "no throw-away people" (For links to a fuller discussion of the concept, see www.healthbeatblog.org/2008/07/finding-the-mon.html

Let me add that there are, indeed, people who are too infirm, or to frail, physically or mentally to produce goods and services. But this group does not comprise "20 to 30 percent" of the population.

The time-value-dollar system can work in relatively small communities (like Ithaca, New York) where there are a fair number of people with more time than money (many students as well as relatively low-income people, some of them older) who can help each other.

The last I heard, merchants in Ithaca were taking time dollars for a small percent of their sales (perhaps 15 percent).

This is a system that is preferable to "community service" becuase it is a system which recognizes that many people, and many different types of labor, have value.

It also leads one to question our dollar-based system.

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Interesting idea. I will have to read more. Does Ithaca have any way of assigning degrees or difficult or maybe "yuck" factors to the value of their dollars? I think plumbing has a bigger yuck factor to it than cooking, don't you?

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:-)

@ maggie mahar


In my world there are good plumbers and bakers, and bad ones. If I need one I hire the former.

@ maggie mahar


If the cake came from a bakery or restaurant that had been well-advertised and promoted, it might have great value: prestige commands dollars.


Yeah.


You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time...


But, geez, maggie people aren't complete idiots. They can tell quality despite what advertisers say...and they don't need the help of self-appointed "wise-men" with academic degrees...


...but they do need protection from false advertising and concealed defects - because some things only become apparent AFTER purchase.

@ maggie mahar


There are also lots of drug addicts, irresponsible and criminal types, and talentless dopes. Lots and lots of them.

A community that uses time dollars to barter for goods and services doesn't try to differentiate between the time it takes for an elderly woman to bake a cake, "from scratch," and the time it takes a plumber to fix her plumbing.
And this is precisely the basis for the failure of communism. The effort to bake a cake, in no way equates to digging a ditch for water lines, or cleaning out a septic tank, or being responsible for directing the flow of water, when a mistake can cause serious damage to a house. Stossel provides an even better example...http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnStossel/2007/11/21/the_tragedy_of_the_commons&Comments=true

Auctioning of one's services is the fairest way to determine that value. If the best one can do is a minimum wage job, it's up to the person to make himself more valuable, not the state to artificially inflate a wage.

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My mother was proud of something my grandfather said, "The man is who picks up the garbage is as necessary as I am." Alva Weedn built and ran 3 hospitals in little towns near the Red River, was president of the Oklahoma hospital association, and was practical and thrifty enough to amputate several of his own fingers when radiation burns from holding X-ray plates occurred. He was a mensch; someone who thinks 20-30% of his fellow humans have no socially useful function to perform is sadly deformed.

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That was TPM's resident troll offensivetoyou, not me.

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The fact is, the whole nationalization of the US economy of WWII was just an example where full employment was combined with 'forced saving' (rationing and buying bonds) and it totally proves Keynes and Galbraith RIGHT. KingElvis

Right -- pull 15 million men out of the workforce (unemployment solved); enslave them in the military and buy them arms (juice the economy with government spending); turn the remainder of the population into drones (no strikes) and put them on enforced subsistence (ration books); and for those that disagree (pacifists) put them in jail or in a gulag if they have yellow skin.

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You mean to tell me that there were no strikes after 1941?

I recall otherwise.

On the otherhand, when there's a labor shortage, and one has bargaining power, what need does one have for strikes?

Oh brother. It was also right to drop two nukes on Japan.
Thanks for clearing that up, shooter242!

Now he's linking to 1. townhall.com posts by 2. John "Chest-garden" Stossell!

Thanks, shooter242!

One could go on to discuss the stupid claim Sowell tries to make against Obama's economics, in defense of lower taxes on the very rich: that "experience has shown that the government typically collected more revenue from a lower capital-gains tax rate than from a higher rate." He does not bother to cite evidence, and the case has been exhaustively debunked (calling Brad DeLong!) since long ago. But that's not my reason for raising it.

Stupid? You're reduced to calling Sowell stupid? I notice that neither you nor your cites produce any evidence for your views either. Why should I believe you?

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Clinton cut cap gains taxes by almost a third, and the budget goes to surplus shortly thereafter. Coincidence? I think not.

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I agree that Jamie's citing the DeLong article is problematic -- in other words I don't see that DeLong denies that a cut in the capital gains tax will unlock some long-term gains to the government's revenue benefit -- at least in the short run.

But -- the real issue is one Sowell tap dances around -- or doesn't even mention.

What are the benefits to the economy -- if any -- in the short, medium, or long-term which a capital gains tax rate reduction produces?

Hi Ellen, I agree with the question and have twice sent you links with real live numbers attached, that have been quarantined for review(?). As I mentioned to JG, Clinton's cap gains cut coincided with the surplus, I think most would consider that beneficial.

In case you're still around here's a series that may prove useful. Isn't it interesting how the effective tax rate seems to grow independent of the nominal rate?

Regarding formatting, this setup is pretty awkward. I've had to resort to an html test page to see if I've done anything weird. I also now have to assume three cites is not allowed by the posting software. And don't get me started about having to reread the entire thread to see if someone replied somewhere.

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I didn't call Thomas Sowell stupid. I called his claim stupid.

Consider the following elementary proof that current capital gains tax revenues are actually negative.

H1, from Sowell: "experience has shown that the government typically collected more revenue from a lower capital-gains tax rate than from a higher rate."

H2. The lowest possible capital gains tax rate is zero. Current rates are above that. Therefore, according to H1, current rates must typically generate less revenue than would a zero rate.

H3. Anything times zero is also zero. A zero rate would generate zero revenue.

Implication: Current capital gains rates must be generating negative revenue.

Of course, we could look up the numbers. But, since this is logically persuasive, why bother?

Of course, Sowell could have qualified his comment in many ways. But they would have, in all cases, required presenting evidence in support of particular numbers. This, he chose not to do.

JG

Thirty plus years ago I read Sowell's books, no change in approach; great writer but infused with meaningless ideology. When he presented numbers the overall did not change much. In sum ideology seeking practical application, don't believe he ever was too successful in this quest!!!!

@ Galbraith


It isn't logically persuasive. It's sophistry. Sowell is making an empirical claim in a non-technical forum, one which doesn't require him to cite statistics. The only way to refute him is to cite those missing statistics, not make a reducio ad adsurdum argument.


Granted, his claim is not causative...and that leaves room for lots of alternate explanations of the phenomenon, if it exists.

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Humans need contact. Some humans need an inferior other as a contrast to their superiority. Their conversations will be a succession of @'s. If their deficiencies are not satisfied by thoughtless disagreement, they may need to talk about sleeping with your mother and needing a shower. In the old days of alt.tasteless, SW allowed setting an ignore filter. Modern SW needs to incorporate this feature.

@ James Galbraith:

Sowell did qualify his statement with the word "typically". He is claiming that the slope of the tax revenue /tax rate curve is negative over a "typical" range. Your refutation assumes that the slope is negative all the way to zero. But that is not necessarily the case.

Consider this. A tax rate of zero will yield zero tax revenue. But a tax rate of 100% will also yield zero tax revenue. So somewhere between a tax rate of zero and a tax rate of 100% there is a tax rate yielding maximum tax revenue. For higher tax rates the slope of the tax revenue / tax rate curve will be negative.

In one of his last Mathematical Games columns for Scientific American, Martin Gardner waded into this controversy with the common sense observation that the real economy is so complex that the tax rate yielding maximum tax revenue is unknowable. It is the practical impossibility of quantifying the tax revenue /tax rate curve that moots Sowell's claim.

I didn't call Thomas Sowell stupid. I called his claim stupid.
That's true, my criticism was misplaced. OTOH you called another comment "fatuous" and commended him for not mentioning supply side. I think it's fair to say your opinion of Sowell is not good.
Consider the following elementary proof that current capital gains tax revenues are actually negative.

I'm really hoping this is what passes for sarcasm in academia. Surely you aren't seriously trying to demonstrate that a tax is the same thing as a subsidy?

Of course, Sowell could have qualified his comment in many ways. But they would have, in all cases, required presenting evidence in support of particular numbers. This, he chose not to do.

I'm sorry I must have missed the numbers you've provided, can you direct me to those? Meanwhile when mine get of quarantine we can talk about them. And I notice you've sidestepped away from my example of Clinton's tax cut fueling the surplus. Tsk.

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Thanks to all for an especially interesting discussion. And special thanks to Ellen and JohnW1141 for attempting to rein in offensivetoyou's over-the-top ad hominen habit that often derails otherwise interesting lines of discussion.

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Yes, of course my little proof is sophistry.

The point about assuming the slope is negative all the way to zero is exactly on target. But it was Sowell's sloppy writing that permitted me to make that assumption.

Clearly, the slope must turn positive at a very low rate of tax. Let's say we agree that it's probably positive at five percent. Well then, how about ten? And if ten, how about fifteen? That's still pretty low. But it also happens to be the current long-term rate.

If Sowell had said, "A reduction in capital gains tax rates perceived as temporary usually produces a temporary surge in tax revenues, as investors liquidate their holdings to take advantage of the tax holiday. Of course, this comes at the expense of revenue later, because the gains, once taxed, cannot be taxed again..." then he would have had a point.

But it wouldn't have been a strong point in favor of low capital gains tax rates, and certainly not worth berating Barack Obama about.

Since Sowell is clearly not a stupid *man,* one is entitled to infer that he is playing his readers for fools.

JG

@ Galbraith


You've seriously misinterpreted Sowell. His purpose in writing the article was to show that Obama was neither knowledgeable nor particularly interested in economics and he used Obama's response to a particular question posed to him by a particular journalist as illustration. He was nowhere attempting to make an economic argument.


None the less, the question of capital gains taxes is worth exploring.


You say

Does Sowell make any claim that a low capital gains tax supports investment, saving or work effort?

which, of course, is the money question.

He does
Economists may say that higher capital-gains tax rates can translate into lower levels of economic activity and fewer jobs

which, without too much of a stretch can be restated as

Economist may say that lower capital-gains tax rates can translate into higher levels of economic activity and more jobs

Notice that Sowell uses "may" and "can" rather simply omitting the two and using "translates" instead of "translate". In other words the relationship is approximate.


Now that's the important part. If the relationship is only approximate then it will sometimes hold and sometimes not. Do economists have a handle on the deciding factors? Can they be manipulated to our advantage? Is the manipulation politically possible?


I suspect the answer to all 3 is "no"...and that all this stuff is driven by greed, jealosy, and lust for power.

This is getting really tiresome. Are you going to address the point about Clinton's cap gains tax cut and following surplus or not?
Are you going to provide some factual backup for your own claims or not? Should I assume that this is how academia conducts itself? Here's some relevant numbers, perhaps you can use these to prove your point rather than trying to snark your way through.

Does Sowell make any claim that a low capital gains tax supports investment, saving or work effort? No, he does not. That topic has disappeared. The claim he does make, is about tax revenue.
So what? Taxes by definition take away from the taxpayer they do not add. No tax supports anything productive, it's a TAX. If more money is raised by lowering a tax, obviously the current rate is too high and merely confiscatory.
If Sowell had said, "A reduction in capital gains tax rates perceived as temporary usually produces a temporary surge in tax revenues, as investors liquidate their holdings to take advantage of the tax holiday. Of course, this comes at the expense of revenue later, because the gains, once taxed, cannot be taxed again..." then he would have had a point.
And doesn't this make some points you are conveniently ignoring, beginning with the recognition that some tax rates are high enough to be unproductive? You're also ignoring tax avoidance and plain old velocity within a taxing system.

I wanted to sell the property my business was on, and had to decide how to handle the gains. I could pay the 15% and run, not sell the property and leave it to my heirs with a stepped up basis, or avoid the taxes altogether with a 1031 exchange. At 15% it was worth paying the tax and moving on. At 30% I would have taken the 1031 exchange route, and you as tax collecter would get bupkis.

Now which of those scenarios would you prefer, tax paid or no tax paid? That's the velocity argument, you might end up with a smaller bite, but make it up in volume. Or better.
More importantly, the entire idea of a lower cap gains rate is to free up capital assets making them available to people that are going to use them, rather than leaving them to lie fallow.

Since Sowell is clearly not a stupid *man,* one is entitled to infer that he is playing his readers for fools.

Indeed, I think that is precisely what he does (not just in this one case, but repeatedly). I gave up reading his columns long ago when I found that even where I agreed with his basic premise, all his "supporting evidence" (if he bothered to provide any) was either wrong, unrelated, or otherwise useless.

@ Tim


Nobody's bothered to respond because your stuff is so scattershot and off-topic. Consider

That context suggest that Rome controlled all the resources of the Western world, and at the time the Western world began in Armenia, and included all of North Africa, Anatolia and the Levant. There's no way that wondering bands of landless people should be able to prevail - also consider that Rome in the time of Hannibal, restricted to only the resources of the Italian pennisula, at a much earlier time, was able to throw massive army after massive army at Hannibal.


How do you expect someone to respond to such a generality? Do you know the size of these massive armies? Weren't they citizen soldiers, farmers called up for an emergency? Rome suffered through a century of brutal Civil War at the time of Augustus and still was able to absorb the loss of 3 legions. Hadrian withdrew from the conquests of Trajan - at the absolute height of Roman power - not because he was defeated but because he felt he was over-extended. The Chinese did something similar 12 centuries later. Most historians felt the Western Roman empire should have collapsed 2 centuries before it actually did. The Mongols, wandering bands of landless people, conquered EVERYBODY.


I'm tired and I haven't even begun to deal with your stuff. It's just a hodge-podge tied together (barely) by the ideas that concentration of wealth is the source of collapse and Republicans are the root of evil.


How novel! Where have I heard that before?

@ Tim


As I suspected


The army that faced the Carthaginians was rather different from the armies of the early Roman Empire. Above all, it differed in being a citizen army of non-professional soldiers. Instead of making a career in the army, most of those who served had been called up by the levy, and looked forward to retiring to their family farms, preferably with some booty picked up in the wars

from "Chronicle of the Roman Republic".


My feeling is that the Western Roman Empire collapsed from exhaustion. By the time of its collapse it was Roman in name only (plus a few traditions). The Romans had been mostly killed or absorbed, their spirit and culture dissipated and bastardized. Christianity, an Eastern religion, displaced their ancient beliefs during the time of Constantine who moved the capitol to Byzantium, the Greek speaking part of the empire and its far wealthier and more stable component. The legions, as often as not were barbarian mercenaries.


In fact, you might as well say the fruits of dissolution were sown by Hadrian who called a halt to expansion. No society has proved stable without it. It is expansion which has provided a relief valve for INEVITABLE SOCIAL TENSIONS, for INEVITABLE CONCENTRATIONS OF WEALTH.


Looked at that way, the Republicans of the '20s did the right thing, and the Republicans of today are doing the right thing. Doing their best to expand at the expense of others. It's the only way.

We have more medicines,but less health maple story account

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