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Iran: Initiating a Holocaust To Prevent One

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Is it possible to discuss Iran and Israel without invoking the specter of another Holocaust? It seems like it isn't. Israeli officials, John McCain, and journalists all invoke the possibility of a second Holocaust with reckless abandon.

Reckless it is, too. Once the possibility of another Holocaust is posited, there can be no alternative but to take action, no matter how extreme, to prevent it. Israeli historian Benny Morris is so hysterical about the Iranian threat that he would use nuclear weapons to prevent it.

That's right. On July 18, in perhaps the most ridiculous op-ed I've ever seen in the New York Times, Morris called for a conventional military strike to prevent Iran from developing a nuclear bomb and inflicting a holocaust on Israel. He predicted the strike would fail, and concluded that the only alternative left would be a nuclear attack against Iran.

In other words, he called for a holocaust to prevent a holocaust.

The approach taken by Morris is not only hysterical; it also negates the existence of the state of Israel. After all, if Jews today remain so vulnerable to annihilation--by a second rate power like Iran, no less--then who needs Israel? If Israel's existence cannot protect Jews from holocaust, then why was Israel created in the first place?

A little Holocaust education is in order.

The Holocaust took place because the world's second most powerful nation made the destruction of the Jewish people its number one priority. The "Final Solution" almost succeeded in destroying all the Jews of Europe, some six million men, women, and children.

The reason total annihilation almost succeeded was because Europe's Jews were defenseless. They had no country of their own, no army, and--it goes without saying--no weapons. They had no ability to fight back. The Nazis were able to kill them but the Jews could do nothing or--during the course of several revolts--very little in response. The Nazis were able to destroy the Jews of Europe with near total impunity.

Imagine for a minute if the Jews of Germany, Poland, Hungary, and the rest, could have fought back. Imagine if they somehow had hugely powerful weapons that could destroy Berlin and Frankfurt and Munich. Imagine if they had an army, air force, and navy that was powerful enough to inflict on the Nazis what the Nazis were inflicting on them.

What would have happened then?

There would have been no Holocaust. If the Jews had the power to take the Nazis down with them, the "Final Solution" could not have occurred. It is only because the Jews could not fight back--because they had no army, no weapons, and, above all, no state of their own--that the Holocaust could happen.

And that, as everyone knows, is why the state of Israel was created. That is what "Never again" means. It means that never again will a defenseless, stateless Jewish people be led to slaughter. It means that any power considering annihilation of the Jews will pay a fatal price.

That is why all this talk about another Holocaust is so insulting to Israel. There cannot be another Holocaust. A powerful nuclear-armed Israel is the ultimate deterrent.

Those who insist that another Holocaust is imminent believe that this form of deterrence--known as "mutually assured destruction"--would not work with Iranians. Unlike say the Nazis, Soviets, North Koreans, and pretty much everyone else on the planet, Iranians are said not to care if their own civilization is destroyed in the process of destroying their enemy.

Here's Benny Morris in the New York Times: "Given the fundamentalist, self-sacrificial mindset of the mullahs who run Iran, Israel knows that deterrence may not work as well as it did with the comparatively rational men who ran the Kremlin and White House during the cold war. They are likely to use any bomb they build. . . . Thus an Israeli nuclear strike to prevent the Iranians from taking the final steps toward getting the bomb is probable. The alternative is letting Tehran have its bomb. In either case, a Middle Eastern nuclear holocaust would be in the cards."

In other words, the only way to prevent a nuclear war is to initiate one.

Now I may be naïve but I have yet to hear of any civilization that would choose to go down in flames just to take out the enemy. The Imperial Japanese were as fanatical as any people on the planet, but once they saw the destructive power of the atomic bomb, they surrendered. The Soviets, under Stalin ("comparatively rational," according to Morris) knew they could not defeat the United States so they decided on coexistence, preferring a cold war to a suicidal hot one. The Red Chinese, in their fanatical mode, developed nuclear weapons at a moment when they considered themselves in a life-and-death struggle with both the United States and the Soviet Union but chose not to use them. The same goes for the Indians and Pakistanis who have been engaged in a bloody struggle for fifty years. They both have nuclear weapons.

Iran is different, the hawks say. Sounding like Ahmadinejad describing the Jews, Israel's minister of transportation and candidate for prime minister, Shaul Mofaz, says that "the Iranians are the root of all evil."

Morris agrees. There is no one like the Iranians. Only Iranians are willing to give up their cities, their children, and their civilization to destroy the enemy. (Believing that one's adversaries don't love their children is nothing new. In every war it is said that the other side is willing to sacrifice its own kids which proves that they--unlike us--are essentially not human.)

I don't buy it. I don't believe that the Iranians would sacrifice Tehran to take out Tel Aviv. Yes, they would sacrifice soldiers at the front (look at the mass carnage of the Iran-Iraq War) but not their civilization. And certainly not their children.

Those who insist that they would are precisely the same people who told us that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and that, in the words of Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, we must invade Iraq rather than wait for a "smoking gun" which would likely be a "mushroom cloud."

It's hard to believe that anyone would heed these people twice.

There can be no doubt that the Iranian threat has to be addressed. Although President Ahmadinejad has to answer to the mullahs, his obscene threats need to be taken seriously. But that means using every means at our disposal to contain the Iranian threat, starting with diplomacy without pre-conditions. The worst thing that can happen is that no agreement would be reached and other plans would have to be made. But to assume, as Benny Morris does, that we need to trigger the apocalypse in order to prevent it is nothing short of nuts.

I'm not saying Morris wants a nuclear war, only that he thinks that there are worse things--like diplomacy (an option he never mentions in his op-ed). Here is what he says about nuclear war: "It is in the interest of neither Iran nor the United States . . . that Iran be savaged by a nuclear strike, or that both Israel and Iran suffer such a fate. We know what would ensue: a traumatic destabilization of the Middle East with resounding political and military consequences around the globe, serious injury to the West's oil supply and radioactive pollution of the earth's atmosphere and water."

"Traumatic destabilization." "Serious injury to the West's oil supply." And "radioactive pollution of the earth's atmosphere and water."

That's all! He doesn't even mention the dead.

Imagine this is what a noted historian thinks is preferable to talking to Iran. As for Israel, the Promised Land to which Jews have dreamed of returning for 2,000 years, it supposedly would survive both nuclear devastation and the world's awareness that it triggered nuclear war. What planet does Morris live on?

The good news is that there is a Jewish state. It is strong. It has nuclear weapons. And it isn't going anywhere. Declaring otherwise to advance the same neoconservative agenda that has already done America, Iraq, Israel, and the world so much damage is inexcusable.

And this time it's not working.


114 Comments

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Benny Morris was anything but hysterical...and atomic weapons have completely changed the military landscape. As usual, you are completely wrong about everything.

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Crazy OTY, you'd have us all die to defend your personal agenda. Bad news. It's not going to happen. The neocons are finished.

Another thing, OTY, how about volunteering at a veterans hospital. The war you helped instigate has caused 4000 American dead (but who are they to you?)

You're really dishonest, Rosenberg.


Benny Morris is not my puppet, nor is the Israeli government, nor the American government. Nor did Bush consult me when he made the decision to go to war.


I'm already a volunteer director at my local hospital (the only hospital within a hundred miles). What do you do other than cry crocodile tears for those who serve while characterizing the government which they've volunteered to serve and its policies as crazy and criminal?

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Why don't you join either the IDF or the American military. You certainly seem sprightly enough to fire off missives as a member of the 101st keyboarding brigade. Why not fulfill an obligation for service. Too old? Well, maybe you served in the military as a youth? But it seems doubtful.

But more precisely, the invocation of the second holocaust is both utterly ridiculous and insulting. Israel is bar none the most powerful military in the middle east and it faces no existential threat from anyone, especially Iran. Not only do the Iranian's not possess the capabilities to adequately destroy Israel (they don't have nuclear weapons), they would never do so. Notwithstanding the imbecilic insistence that Iran is a suicidal enterprise, the reality is they have no interest in causing their own obliteration through an attack--as would be the response if they launched a nuclear attack.

But back to reality, they do not possess nuclear weapons and according to both the NIE and the IAEA, they likely suspended their "weapons" program (different from uranium enrichment). So in the absence of such a reality, it becomes clear that the invocation of a second holocaust is dishonest and meant to instill a wholly illogical fear. Despite the psychobabble about Ahmadinejad and his rantings, he is merely a staw man. Of course he exercises no power over nuclear and foreign policy, rather he is just another in a long list of Middle Eastern blowhards with no intention of actually destroying Israel (remeber Nasser, the man who sought American assistance and acquiesced to Israel babbling about 'throwing the jews into the sea'. Just like Iran, he did not have the capability by any means and was using bluster to hide his relative powerlessness).

So this begs the question why, if Iran posses no existential threat to Israel, do they continue pretending so. Well, just as they have for sometime, Israel is gunning at Iran to remove their creeping regional prowess in the ongoing game of geopolitical power politics. They want to knock out Iran so they can hobble Syria and Lebanon to be compliant client states, devoted to the service of Israeli political aims and timid to their territorial expansionism and mistreatment of the Palestinian populace which they occupy.

But back to the holocaust card. It is so disgusting that the holocaust gets brought up by Israel at every historical bend ('48, '56, '67, '73, and every subsequent Palestinian issue since). By constantly invoking the holocaust when there is no such threat, it cheapens the historical relevance and lives of the millions that suffered and were slaughtered during the Holocaust. It also diverts attention from real genocides in the present, which we should be foremost concerned with as opposed to manufactured threats for political aims.

As for Benny Morris, nothing new here. Great historian who successfully challenged the mendacious exodus-style work masquerading as scholarship, revolutionizing the prism through which we view the conflict. But also a class A ethnocentric racist with the moral compass of Eichmann (kinda like our friend here). He considers the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to be necessary and continues to advocate for their full dispossession from the lands of eretz israel. Therefore, it is no surprise that he wholeheartedly supports the murder of thousands in Iran for no reason other than to expand Israel's military hegemony in the Middle East. And let us be clear: advocating for an attack on a country when it possesses no threat to you is not "preemption" but willful slaughter. I just wish tough guys like OTY might put their keyboards down and take up arms.

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k-town,

excellent post, well written. I'm now wondering if OTY will reply or hide under his desk.

@ k-town


Israel...faces no existential threat from anyone, especially Iran


The word from on high, is it? Compared to your pontification the beliefs of some of Israel's highest military and civilian leaders, and leading intellectuals are nothing?


I didn't bother reading further given the self-evident fact that you are an ignoramous.

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he hid.


Let's see if we can make the case for the "existential threat" theory.

Iran is enriching uranium.

That with breeder reactors capable of producing plutonium is a key step towards building a nuclear weapon.

As we see with North Korea, Pakistan etc, once Iran has a nuclear weapon, much of the conventional options have to be radically recalculated. (Say if Israel were to contemplate an air strike of the enriching facilities in Iran while Iran had say even one nuclear weapon that can be delivered to Israel, the calculation would be a lot more riskier than it is now. Therefore, if Iran continues to enrich it is probably likely that it will have the capacity and the incentive to build a deliverable bomb with it to position itself in a strategically better position Is vis-à-vis Israel.

Post nuclear Iran changes the entire equation.

For one, after the first bomb, it becomes much easier to build a larger stockpile without fear of a strike by Israel or the USA. Eventually Iran can and probably will try to achieve parity with Israel's arsenal.

Then--since MAD prevents a first strike nuclear option on either side--it becomes an arms race of the conventional kind.

Israel cannot win a future conventional war against Iran; especially if Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas and even the PLO join the fight.

Therefore if Iran goes nuclear, it poses an existential threat to Israel.

Note: by existential threat I don't mean a Holocaust (assuming that MAD does not get initiated), but a threat to its existence as a nation.

Therefore, even Rosenberg would have to concede that this would be very bad for Jews. (MJ stresses that for the Jews to have a state that allows Jews to fight back is better than to be at the mercy of historical anti-Semitism and persecution.

And you are a chickenshit.

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Your faith that Iran will never have nuclear weapons is touching. Are you risking our life and that of you entire family on that faith?

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Ughh, if this is a response to me, I must say I come away a bit bewildered. Nowhere do I mention that Iran will never have nuclear weapons. So I would suggest a reread on your part, for I pity your reading comprehension skills.

As far as my children: No, I would not risk my children's lives to butcher another people who pose no risk to my country or any other.

The word is mightier than the spear.


"But back to the holocaust card. It is so disgusting that the holocaust gets brought up by Israel at every historical bend ('48, '56, '67, '73, and every subsequent Palestinian issue since)."

k-town

In 1967 Eguptian President Gamal Nasser and his friends publicly proclaimed their intention to drive Israel's Jews into the sea--if that wasn't evidence of a desire to foment a second Holocaust, then nothing will persuade you.

You are a disgusting bigot, k-town, and I thank G-d that neither President Obama nor President McCain, will pay any attention to your vile views.
Israel had a right in 1967 to defend its citizens from Nasser, and it has a right to defend itself from Iran. If and when Israel attacks Iran, Barack Obama will support Israel. Trust me. Fuck you.

By the way, Rosenberg, did you ever look at the clock of the Atomic Scientists? It's never been more than 15 minutes from midnight and, for most of its existance, was 5 minutes or so from Armaggeddon. That's how confident the most knowledgeable people on the planet are about the deterrent power of MAD.

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You are a Good German.

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That last was my last reward to you for the week. Post away. (And sometimes think about THIS COUNTRY. You live here, pal).

Surprised I'm already a volunteer, I see. And you didn't respond to my request for any service you might perform...so I take it your public service is equal to that of your military service - zero.


No response to the position of the Atomic Scientists either. Here's their Doomsday Clock for those who are interested in facts.


And I see you've no compunction about freely resorting to name-calling and slurs when reason fails you.


By the way, I'm not your "pal" and you're certainly not a tough guy. Stop pretending. It makes you look ridiculous (well, more ridiculous).

You can say you're a volunteer. Why would we choose to believe you, when everything else you write is a lie (including the words "and" and "the")?

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You can bomb nuclear sites but you can't bomb knowledge.

Eventually Iran will figure out how to make a bomb. Once they figure it out it only a matter of will power and money to make and test a bomb.

I don't see how bombing will deter that will, espesially bombing from such a hated enemy. I feel it will just harden the resolve of Iran.

@adamchaz


You're right when you say you can't bomb knowledge. That was the argument of the scientists who developed the bomb, the reason they rued the day they did so, and the reason the Doomsday clock is always so close to midnight.


However, both the Germans and Japanese have that knowledge and have not used it. Without doubt, it's because they lost WWII.


You have the mentality of a loser. That's why you think winning is impossible, why you think bombing will "just harden the resolve of Iran". Tell me, if Iran destroys Israel and its population by doing what Rosenberg thinks is unthinkable do you think it will only harden Jews' resolve to retaliate (I say Jews because there will be damn few Israelis left)? Have you even asked yourself that question?


Look carefully at MAD. An Iranian first strike using atomic weapons will completely annihilate Israel and its people. How damaging can Israel's response be? Iran has a population of around 80 million and is bigger than France. Can Israel wipe out 40 million and most of its cities? That's assuming Iran fires off a first strike in its own name. Suppose the strike comes from Hizbullah in Lebanon, or from some other, similar group located elsewhere in the Middle East?

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offensivetoyou says:

Look carefully at MAD. An Iranian first strike using atomic weapons will completely annihilate Israel and its people. How damaging can Israel's response be?

Offensive seems to be suggesting Israel is too unsophisticated (stupid?) to consider an enemy first strike and how they (Israel) can ameliorate/retaliate.

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The death of 10 million Jewish people and the death of 10 million Iranian people are equally terrible.

You argument is that because there are only 10 million Jewish people than there deaths are somehow more important than the death of 10 million Iranian people.

That is a flawed argument.

@ adamchaz


My argument is that the Iranians can completely destroy Israel with a few atomic weapons while Israel can only severely damage Iran. In war that's called winning.

My argument is that the Iranians can completely destroy Israel with a few atomic weapons while Israel can only severely damage Iran.

Depends entirely upon your definitions of "destroy" (do you mean entirely depopulate or destroy leadership and infrastructure to the point that the nation may no longer function coherently?) and "damage," but this is likely true--with only "a few" nukes, Israel would be trashed whereas Iran would survive, although it would not likely be a regional power any longer.

However, Israel doesn't have "a few" nuclear warheads; it likely has between one and two hundred. And I'm guessing that's enough to right proper fuck Iran.

(http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/)

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MJ asks:

Is it possible to discuss Iran and Israel without invoking the specter of another Holocaust?

MJ, I don't know the answer to THAT question, but I know the answer to THIS question;

"Is it possible for MJ Rosenberg to discuss Iran and Israel without being attacked by right wing champions of the warlike neo cons who warp what Rosenberg says?"

The answer is, No.

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In other words, he called for a holocaust to prevent a holocaust.

I other, but inaccurate words. I oppose a strike on Iran, from Israel or the U.S., but a nuclear attack on a hardened site does not mean a holocaust. There is quite a bit of difference between an attack on a clear military target and a deliberate campaign to exterminate an ethnic group.

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Any nuclear attack will have signifigant radiation damage for a very very long time.

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Significant lingering radiation is not a Holocaust. No matter how you spin it, a targeted strike on an isolated military site is not the same as a strike on a large city and is certainly not the same as a targeted extermination of an entire ethnic group.

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John, the good news is that the neocons' agenda is now so transparent.
And the good guys are waking up. That war resolution the neo's were pushing in the House has stalled and the Senate's version is almost innocuous by comparison.
It's getting better.
I don't even think that Mc Cain would go to war with Iran, although I sure don't want to find out. At least not for another 100 years.

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It is talk like this, threatening to use Israel's nukes (which it won't admit it has) against a country which doesn't have nukes and hasn't threatened Israel, that would lead to a justifiable Iranian nuclear weapon capability. Who could blame them? And then the Saudis would need nukes, and so on throughout the Middle East.

So the only real answer is to free the Middle East of nuclear weapons, and that means Israel.

@ Don Bacon

It is talk like this, threatening to use Israel's nukes (which it won't admit it has) against a country which doesn't have nukes and hasn't threatened Israel, that would lead to a justifiable Iranian nuclear weapon capability.


But this sort of talk is very recent, while Iran has had a nuclear program for a long time, which the Left has had no problem justifying. Just read the thread on the issue; on every one you'll find posters saying Iran has every right to defend itself in the way others have...Russia, Pakistan, and particularly Israel, have nukes so Iran has every right to have them. On and on like that.


For me, the new Left's hatred of Israel is transparent, as transparent as the old Left's hatred of the United States.

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The left has no problem justifying Iran's nuclear program because it is entirely legal and in conformance with the NPT. "Nothing in this Treaty shall be interpreted as affecting the inalienable right of all the Parties to the Treaty to develop research, production and use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes without discrimination and in conformity with articles I and II of this Treaty."

Israel is a renegade nuclear power, a non-signer of the NPT.

Again, Iran has threatened nobody with military attack, but has been threatened with attack by the US and Israel.

@ Don Bacon


Look again.


The Left has defended Iran's right to possess nuclear weapons.
There are legitimate doubts about the real nature of Iran's nuclear program. Very, very strong doubts. Every nation and the United Nations have their own intelligence services. They do no all agree and all have records of very big failures on very important issues.
You are as bad as Rosenberg, citing intelligence reports when it suits you, distorting those reports by quoting only those parts you like, and criticizing the services for their failures when they've come to conclusions you didn't like or were proven wrong.
The same criticm applies to your use of legalisms.

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Do you mean to say that if some lefties think that Iran should have nukes, that this is a reason for Israel to attack Iran? That's crazy.

There are no doubts, strong or otherwise, about the real nature of Iran's nuclear program. Iran's program is subject to a full, continuous and comprehensive IAEA surveillance, and the IAEA has found no deviance from a peaceful program. If anyone has doubts it is a result of US propaganda and has nothing to do with what is actually happening. But that's not a new situation, is it?

@ Don Bacon


In your original post you claimed that it was talk like Morris' which would justify an Iranian nuclear weapons program. In response I pointed out that many on the Left have been justifying such a program long before Morris, or anyone of similar views, spoke.


I want to be clear. You really believe that there are no doubts about Iran's nuclear program? You share k-town's view that everyone, particularly the Israelis, knows with complete certainty that Iran is not working on weapons, and that all claims to the contrary are just an excuse to allow Israel and the United States to expand their powers?