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Israeli Hardliner: "I'm for Obama"

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I got a call from an Israeli friend the other day. He wanted to know when I'd be over. I told him and planned a nice dinner in Jerusalem together.

He then asked what I thought about Obama vs. Mc Cain. (He knows I'm for Obama, of course).

I said, "Let's save this for when I see you. If we argue about it now, we'll both decide not to get together."

He said: "Wrong. I'm for Obama."

What?

This guy is a real conservative on Israeli issues. I don't think we have ever agreed about anything. Plus, he liked Bush. What gives?

Here is what he said: "I watched Obama when he was here. And I think we need someone like him to advocate for us. I have no doubts that he's pro-Israel. McCain is too, although, like Obama, he's not a leader on Israel issues. I suspect that they would be pretty much the same as President."

So? Why Obama.

"My friends and I prefer Obama because when he defends us, people will listen. Bush is pro-Israel but when he defends us, all it does is emphasize how alone we are. All we have is Bush who is hated worldwide and commands no respect. So who cares if he defends us? Everytime he opens his mouth, we lose support."

"But when Obama goes before the UN, or the Europeans, or the Africans and Asians and says, 'look Israel has legitimate grievances too,' they will pay attention. The very fact that he is of African background makes him credible. Being defended by McCain would be like being defended by Margaret Thatcher.

"McCain can't do anything for us except make us look like a pariah, defended by an old conservative President who is identified on the wrong side of every issue."

But you believe Obama would defend you?

"Of course, I read his speeches. I heard him talk off the cuff. He knows Israel deeply. All McCain does is say 'there will never be another holocaust' like he's some 70 year old Jewish leader from America. Obama speaks a language the world understands and speaks it well. McCain does tired talking points. Being defended by McCain will be a minus not a plus."

So do most Israelis agree with you.

"No. I think it's half and half. The young ones for sure, the guys in the army, they agree.
I mean, who could be excited by McCain, especially here, where he means nothing but the continuation of Bush. Look where that got us."

What about Iran?

"McCain says he won't let there be another holocaust. Yeah, well, we have a powerful army and a nuclear deterrent. We don't need him talking about us like we're living in Germany in 1942. There won't be a holocaust, that's for sure. Talking like that, as if we are a defenseless flower on the verge of annihilation is insulting.

"What we need is someone who can come up with some new ideas about neutralizing Iran. We need somebody smart. We don't need the same old ideas that don't work anyway. I don't know for sure that things will be better with Obama but I know they won't be better with McCain. So the choice is obvious."

He concluded: "If your President makes America more credible, it makes your allies more credible too. A President who is bad for America is even worse for us."

Interesting conversation and in keeping with polls showing that Israelis have shifted their support from McCain to Obama since Obama visited. Does it matter? Not really, except for one thing. My friend has lots of relatives here -- in Ohio and Florida. He promised to e-mail them all!



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Good analysis by your Israeli friend.
He understands that we need new leadership that can build a bridge to the 21st century and command global respect in order to restore America's stature in the world. Until america regains that global stature, any American President advocating for any cause, will be ignored.

Does your friend have a name...or is he a "special" friend?

Get back on the short bus, "special" one...

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The fact is that the greatest danger to Israel is not Hamas, or Hezbolla, or Iran, or even Likud.

It's American Neocons.

Look at what happened with the bugout from Gaza.

There was a bugout because Bush and His Evil Minions™ pressured Sharon to do this because they hoped it would settle things in Iraq.

The neocon blowback has been disastrous for Israel.

@ Saroff


There was a bugout because Bush and His Evil Minions™ pressured Sharon to do this because they hoped it would settle things in Iraq.
The evidence
is that Sharon proposed a pullout from Gaza in order to lessen international pressure against his Wall and strengthen the Israeli position in the West Bank. Bush supported him.


You just made up your claim, didn't you?


Just like Rosenberg made up a conservative friend who supports an Obama who Rosenberg hopes and believes would FORCE Israel to accept a peace based on total withdrawal behind the 1967 lines, a peace based on complete acceptance of the Palestinian position.


Prior to this both Rosenberg and Gitlin were claiming that it was the neocons who were themselves singling out their Jewishness in order to characterize any criticism of them as anti-semitism.


Well, at least you are consistant; no honor, no principles, no truth.

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offensivetoyou says;


Well, at least you are consistant; no honor, no principles, no truth.

Your remark certainly shows you ARE consistent. heh heh heh

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I think this is pretty interesting. I don't think that Obama's race makes him a more credible messenger for Israel but his popularity sure does. He'll likely have a better working relationship with other foreign leaders and that's where Israel would really benefit.

Even if Obama and McCain have the same policies (and they do likely share a lot in common) they'll be easier for Obama to sell. McCain has to walk into the room as an extension of George Bush -- as the third term of a presidency that has repeatedly thumbed its nose at other world leaders. Obama starts fresh.

I don't see how anyone could argue that the last 8 years have been good for Israel's security. I'd expect Israelis to want a new face in American politics just like many Americans do.

But really, this isn't much about policy, is it? It's about who can communicate what.

@ destor23


I ask you to consider a few things;


First, what does Rosenberg think U.S. policy to Israel should be?
Second, is it likely that his support for Obama would be so strong if he thought Obama was not in agreement?
Third, many, many Israeli do like Bush and think he has been good for Israeli security, better than what would have been the case had his opponents won. Probably a strong majority.
Fourth, Israel is a pariah because it exists, not because of its policies. Virtually all of the Muslim world, and most blacks and browns, consider Israel to be a white colonialist state imposed on darker skinned peoples...and therefore not possessed of legitimacy. Never to be possessed of legitimacy. Whatever is said or done which appears contrary is due to military and economic weakness and is not binding.

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OTY, I know that reasonable people can disagree about this stuff. I just think we all share the same goals here. The US will support Israel and will defend Israel when it can't defend itself. Both Obama and McCain basically agree with that.

Problem is... I think bombing Iran makes things worse for Israel. Or attacking Iraq.

I do like debating with you but I wonder why you attack people's motives so often... You and MJ are off to a bad start to say the least. If you could debate with him the way you debate with me, I think everything would be fine.

Because there really are policy, rather than existential issues that need to be worked out. The vast, vast majority of TPMers started out assuming that Israel has the right to exist. We're now more interested in how to make it the best and safest country it can be.

@ destor23


Jews and Arabs cannot live together under one government, one society (don't be fooled by the current situation in Israel). There is not room to accommodate two states within the land of Palestine. Both Jews and Arabs have growing populations (Palestinian Arabs, in fact, have the highest or second highest birth rate in the world) which can be sustained only with ever increasing resources, including land. This is an unsustainable situation which can only be resolved by war - devastating, brutal, terrible.


No one likes to face this ugly reality...but I think you can, so we can agree to disagree. Rosenberg, on the other hand, is dishonest. He wants the United States to FORCE Israel to accept its own destruction and will go to any lengths - lying, mis-characterization, deception - to justify his position. So he and I can never talk.

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Well, I will always disagree with you in a friendly way when I do and will agree with you when I do and I do like discussing things with you.

I also believe that MJ is an honest thinker, whether you agree with him or not.

And I'll leave you, in an admittedly stale thread (so I'll say it again elsewhere) with the warning that every compelling demographic argument I've ever seen, especially when they're based on birth rates, turns out to be wrong.

And... maybe I shouldn't be trying to broker a peace but I'll say this, OTY... most of your comments are thoughtful enough that you should be treated better around here while at the same time, you sometimes break into ad hominems that, yes, make you bannable.

I'm glad that nobody has pressed the banning issue. I'd rather you hang around. But... you really can be the iconoclast you are around here without getting so personal. You'd probably even be more effective. But, that's just unsolicited advice.

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Right, Destor. But it sure doesn't hurt to have this guy, with his background, defending Israel (only when it's right, of course).
Right now, Israel is a pariah. He can change that -- with Israel's help, of course.

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Here's a look at Mccain's foreign policy advisors;

Randy Scheunemann, Max Boot, James Woolsey, William Kristol, Robert Kagan, Mark Salter, John Bolton, Gary Schmitt, Ralph Peters, Joe Lieberman, Daniel Mckivergan.

Most on that list are neo-cons, and some are signatories to the goals of The Project for a New American Century which is funded in part by such organizations as the Sarah Scaife Foundation, the John M. Olin Foundation and the Bradley Foundation.

Maybe they will be able to get a President McCain to invade Iran.

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John, don't bother with that Offensive guy. He has as much interest in the United States and what's good for Americans as a random farmer in Tajikistan.

@ Rosenberg


In 1947, George Marshall, one of our greatest Secretaries of State, the architect of our overwhelming victory in WWII and probably, through his far-sighted reconstruction policies in Europe, of the Cold War as well, strongly opposed the creation of the state of Israel. I mean SRTRONGLY! No one who witnessed it could remember a President being addressed as rudely as Marshall addressed Truman.


But Truman sided with the Jews...apparently on the grounds of common decency. Certainly, he cited no other justifications...and all the reasons Marshall cited in opposition, and in support of American interests, have come to pass.


Marshall was a great man, tested and proved in war and peace, brilliant and honest. But so was Truman.


You, on the other hand, are a cowardly pig and have no business speaking about Israel's interests or America's interests, or any interests except your own.

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Keep it up, and you are out of here.

@ M.J.Rosenberg


John, don't bother with that Offensive guy. He has as much interest in the United States and what's good for Americans as a random farmer in Tajikistan.


You, on the other hand, are a cowardly pig and have no business speaking about Israel's interests or America's interests, or any interests except your own.


Keep it up, and you are out of here.


Perhaps, you'll wipe the thread...as was your previous preferred method of dealing with serious opposition?

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Actually, Vlad, I should get you banned but I won't because your manner and utter lack on interest in this country successfully discredit your positions. So keep writing.
Haters have their place.

@ Rosenberg


I thought I could show you, through the actions and thoughts of Truman and Marshall, how honourable men could come to completely different conclusions about what constituted the interests of this country.


I was wrong.

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offensivetoyou,

I understand the guilty pleasure of reading M.J. Rosenberg.
He's the biggest fool among all left bloggers.
However, I suggest you don't waste time with this idiot, don't create traffic to his pages.
Let's him and his readers engage in echo chamber of anti-Semitic and anti-Israel rant.

@ tnathan


guilty pleasures


Motivations are often a tangled mess. People will pursue money, sex, excitement and revenge to almost any lengths...and avoid fear and shame with the same energy.


Rosenberg and the anti-war, anti-Israel Left, have a large audience. Their motives are hard to assess, as I said. Some are, without doubt, believers in a better world. Others are dominated by jealosy and anger. I think it worthwhile to challenge them on all levels.

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You can't engage them in reasonable discussions. They are too dogmatic.
Don't generate income for M.J.

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Cowardly Pig? What sort of creature makes insults like this instead of trying to argue persuasively? Certainly not a Courageous Man.
Save such talk for when you want to invite someone to a duel or need to curse at your T.V.

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MJ said:

John, don't bother with that Offensive guy. He has as much interest in the United States and what's good for Americans as a random farmer in Tajikistan.


I know, but I like to poke him with a stick now and then. Its fun to aggravate him and watch the number of his posts rise in proportion with his anger.

heh heh heh.

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MJ.

Who does your friend favor for Israeli PM?http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/tpm_siteimages/button_send.gif

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Tzipi Livni

MJ

I am heartened by your friend's thoughtful analysis. Thank you for sharing this piece with us.

@all


FDR, the Holocaust, and the Promised Land


I urge everyone interested in this thread and this subject to read the first 7 pages of this book (all that is available through this source).


You'll find that none of the current arguments and positions is new, but that, in historical context, motivations are arguments are of much greater clarity, as are consequences.

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Obama and Tzipi could have the best chance of getting stuff done as long as the old advisors and liasons are shuffled off to the side.

New blood is required to deal with the new facts on the ground in the ME.

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It is to be hoped that the friend's US relatives are receptive to the wake-up calls, and willing to act on them. America's mideast policy has been probably been wrecked over the past 7 years beyond the ability of any single US president to fully repair the damage, but this kind of clear-headed thinking is welcome all the same.

@ destor23


every compelling demographic argument I've ever seen, especially when they're based on birth rates, turns out to be wrong.


This is the most interesting of claims. How in the world did you arrive at it, given the undoubted huge rise in population over the last 200 to 500 years, and the undoubted finite size of the earth and its resources?


Sure, Malthus and Ehrlich were wrong in both their timing and reasoning, Germany didn't die despite its failure to gain lebensraum, and European populations - excluding third-world immigration - have stabilized.


But so much in human affairs has been driven by the need/desire to acquire new resources, especially land. It has been possible to attribute shortages to mal-distribution, organizational failure, inadequate science and engineering, rather than absolute physical limits. But, quite frankly, I view much of that attribution as rationalization.


In the case at hand it's theoretically possible that both Arabs and Jews will find a way to put their cultural and religious differences aside and form a united government. History does not look kindly at that possibility. It's also possible that both will decide that stabilizing population is their highest priority. There's absolutely no evidence for that. How about technological fixes...new water sources, substitutes for petrol, better crops? Those are world-wide problems, with Israel at the forefront in finding solutions and Arabs at the back of the pack, and it's far from certain that they can stave off devastating climate change, energy deprivation, starvation, disease, drought, multiple extinctions.

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But is the area really incapable of supporting a reasonable 2 state solution? I think they can work that out, they'll just need help. Clinton nearly got there. Obama might be able to go further with Arafat out of the picture. McCain, I'm afraid, even with the best of intentions will muck it all up with his warmongering.

@ destor23


But is the area really incapable of supporting a reasonable 2 state solution?


If Arabs and Jews were able to arrive at a federation which stabilized population and equitably partitioned resources, of course a two-state solution would be possible.


But that sort of agreement has not been achievable anywhere on earth.

MJ.

While I completely agree with your friends assessment of an Obama presidency, it seems disingenuous to call him a hard-liner if he is support a centrist candidate. Thoughts?

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"Jews and Arabs cannot live together under one government, one society (don't be fooled by the current situation in Israel). There is not room to accommodate two states within the land of Palestine."

Posted by offensivetoyou
August 6, 2008 8:18 PM

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"In the case at hand it's theoretically possible that both Arabs and Jews will find a way to put their cultural and religious differences aside and form a united government."

Posted by offensivetoyou
August 7, 2008 6:39 AM

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heh heh heh

"Interesting conversation and in keeping with polls showing that Israelis have shifted their support from McCain to Obama since Obama visited."

MJ...MJ....MJ...dear, sweet, clueless MJ:

"Since Israelis absorbed intense media coverage of Barack Obama’s visit to their nation late last month, their opinion of him has improved, but only slightly.

A new poll finds 38 percent of Israelis still would rather see Obama’s Republican rival John McCain elected U.S. president, compared to 31 percent for Obama, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12277.html

@ Bob Lane


He's not clueless. Far from it, he's dishonest. He makes his living peddling a line of crap and cannot afford to deviate from it, or admit he's seriously wrong, without endangering his income.


It's a disease common to the pundit class, a problem similar to that of movie stars trapped in type casting.