Eine Kleine Kleinmusik
This is a hell of a good season for audacity. If you haven't tuned in to Joe Klein's fight with the smarmy bullies of the Jewish Right, here's what you've been missing. Last month, Joe Klein posted in his Time blog as follows:
The fact that a great many Jewish neoconservatives--people like Joe Lieberman and the crowd over at Commentary--plumped for this war, and now for an even more foolish assault on Iran, raised the question of divided loyalties: using U.S. military power, U.S. lives and money, to make the world safe for Israel.
Whereupon Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League promptly accused Klein of perpetrating an "outrageous assertion...reminiscent of age-old anti-Semitic canards about a Jewish conspiracy to control and manipulate government."
Now, of the efforts of Messrs. Perle, Lieberman, Feith, Scheunemann, Wolfowitz, Podhoretz, & Co. to catapult the U. S. into the crazy, hideous, and disastrous war in Iraq, there is not the slightest doubt. That the chief perpetrators of the war were not Jewish, and that they had other ideas besides "making the world safe for Israel," is also doubtless--Foxman duly pointed this out, telling Klein something that he, Klein, had doubtless figured out on his own. I wish Klein had put this directly and not hidden behind the euphemism of "raising the question of divided loyalties": As he also well knows, and has written, the problem with the neocons is not that they care about Israel but that their ideas about how to implement that care are desperately wrongheaded and dangerous.
In any event, subtlety is not Foxman's strong suit. Sailing out into non sequitur waters, he went on:
Whether or not one feels that America's war on Iraq was justified, the charge that it is being fought by the United States on behalf of Israel is both offensive and categorically false.
I missed the part where Klein "charged" that the Iraq war "is being fought by the United States on behalf of Israel." There is no such part. And so Klein rightly fired back that he "never said that Jewish neocons were the primary reason we went to war in Iraq." And then he upped the ante, charging that
there is now, in my opinion, an even more dangerous tendency among Jewish neoconservatives to encourage a pre-emptive attack on Iran's nuclear program. Their gleeful, intellectual warmongering--given the vast dangers and complexities of an attack on Iran--is nauseating.
What's more, Klein proceeded to speak unminced words that rarely bust through into the light of Time or the NYT or the WP or the NewsHour or CNN or any of the august channels where respectable opinion casts its pieties:
I find your "outrage" particularly galling because the people you defend are constantly spewing canards against those who favor talking to the Palestinians, or who don't favor witless bellicosity when it comes to Iran. Their campaign of defamation has cost people jobs, damaged reputations and careers. I am very tired of having reasonable people accused of being "soft on terrorism" or "unpatriotic" or favoring "surrender"--Joe Lieberman's favorite--by Jewish neoconservatives who seem to have a neurotic need to prove their toughness. They, and you, should know that most Jews disagree with their politics and many Jews are disgusted with their behavior. They, and you, should know that the tendency to "cry wolf" about antisemitism does real harm to the Jewish community--indeed, in this case, it is laughable.
Foxman blasted back that "if you consider the history that has seen Jews vilified as a group that keeps to itself, is conspiratorial and has dual loyalties, you will better understand our concern." (Obviously the charge that Jews keep to themselves is a canard. If only Perl, Feith, Wolfowitz, Scheunemann et al. had kept to themselves and refrained from talking up their idea of a dandy little war with Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld & Co., the guys with the troops.)
And then, although Klein had said nothing about anybody's religious views, Foxman proceed to take up his position behind a favored redoubt--the privacy of religion:
None of the issues you raise has anything to do with a person's religion or religious beliefs. None of the neo-conservatives, whether Jewish or of another faith (or no faith), has expressed his or her views about foreign policy in terms of religion.
Enough of Foxman's non sequiturs, and let's get serious. As everybody knows, there is a Jewish establishment that for years has carried holy water for the Israeli Right. It is not "pro-Israel"--it is pro-bellicosity. (That means sometimes pro-Likud and sometimes pro-bellicosity, including its Labor wing, which seems to be in Ehud Barak's care at the moment.) The ADL, which stands, or sits, mute on the routine defamation of liberal American Jews as "self-hating," plays in this league. So, disgracefully, does The New Republic, much of whose staff knows far better but which nonetheless lends itself to smears against the liberal Jewish J Street lobby and its blogger-supporters Eric Alterman, Matt Yglesias, and Ezra Klein. (See Eric's rundown here, and latterly Ezra Klein on the outrages of TNR's Jamie Kirchick. On the Joe Klein-Foxman contretemps, also see Matt , Ezra and Daniel Levy.)
Confrontations like these between Joe Klein and Abe Foxman are going to become more frequent, even more intense, as the Bush lockdown on the Middle East expires. Who knows, it might even happen that some liberal Jewish money might embolden itself to fight the regnant alternative--the blowhard billions of the right-wing gambling tycoon Sheldon Adelson and friends. Should Obama get to the White House, factions will gather, hover, contend, and clash by day and night. The absurdity of a united "Jewish community" will break down--as it needs to. That's not anti-Semitism, it's politics.
For now, congratulations to Joe Klein for stepping up and out. I have not always agreed with him over the years, but who cares?


Klein may or may not have raised the question of Jewish neocon divided loyalties...but someone did. Guess who? Just google the question for an answer. Start with, for example, Steve Clemons and see who replied and what they said.
July 31, 2008 11:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Dear Offensive...I'm not sure why raising the question of Jewish neocon's divided loyalties is wrong or bad...the group of Neocons who helped push us into the disastrous and immoral occupation of Iraq are the same group who are now raising the banners for war with Iran...which would be even more disastrous.
Clearly the group pushes the theme that whatever is good for Israel is good for the US, even when the opposite is true.
Could you please explain clearly to me why Perl, Lieberman, Feith, Scheunemann, Wolfowitz, Podhoretz, & Co and their distortions of US policy to fit their own world view DOES NOT REFLECT DIVIDED LOYALTIES?
I'm waiting to hear your tortured explanations Vlad...
July 31, 2008 11:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
@ wagonjak
Well, clearly the Jewish neocons don't agree with your characterizations of their policies or your view of the consequences of their policies.
So what? Nothing wrong with honest disagreement. That's what politics is all about.
But accusations of disloyalty and traitorous behavior are something else entirely. Get it?
@ Gitlin and Rosenberg
See? Its not the neocons who are raising the issue, and Joe Klein is irrelevant. There are only two groups which benefit from the charges of divided loyalty directed at the Jewish neocons; the anti-war Left and overt anti-semites. I say it was the former who first made the accusation and have since gathered many of the latter into the fold...or were already themselves anti-semites (anti-Jew) because of the Israel/Palestine dispute.
@Gitlin
This is all so obvious. You are either a fool or dishonest by trying to create a smokescreen with faux outrage over how Klein is being treated. I vote for the latter.
July 31, 2008 11:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
So far, the only dishonest poster on this thread is you. And you know that.
July 31, 2008 11:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
@ Gitlin
Here we have an example of that most pathetic and common of political animals; the true believer, someone who absolutely cannot be moved by rational argument, someone who will hang onto his beliefs to the death.
We both know how Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, P.T. Barnum, and other famous tyrants, manipulators, and con-men felt about such people.
But not all politicos are like that. Some are good and honest men. Like Daniel Patrick Moynihan. The question is...to which group do you belong?
July 31, 2008 12:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Old Grouch says to OTY:
"So far, the only dishonest poster on this thread is you. And you know that."
Some things never change.
July 31, 2008 12:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, P.T. Barnum
OK, this is one for the ages. O2U wins the thread.
July 31, 2008 12:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
@ Berube
Ah. You're back...and reading my posts. That's a surpise.
I used Hitler, Stalin, etc. because they were such obvious examples. I could have used many examples from Wall St., which I am sure would have met with your approval,...or even the old Britannica salesmen who used to peddle their wares door-to-door (I have first hand experience with that from my college days).
July 31, 2008 12:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Todd:
As a gentile, I see these same patterns over and over when Jews speak about Israel to gentiles - it's a surprise that now Honest Abe Foxman employs them on fellow Jews.
"Sure we're knocking peoples homes down - dispossesing them, but hey IT WAS DONE TO US so we have a unique understanding of this you can't access with your white priviledge..." This is the "woe is our history" argument.
Here's my version: "Catholics in England were tortured and executed in Elizabethan times - that's why we Catholics have a special right to torture and execute - it was done to us."
It's helpful for the world's winners to feel the pain inflicted on them 60 years ago - or 600 years ago. That way they can still claim victimhood, even as their jackbooted thugs knock at your door.
The broader lesson is the myth of the racial monolith - in fact this myth is the essence of racism: Negroes are dumb and lazy, Micks drink whiskey and fight, Wops are all mobsters.
And don't you know all the Jews want to kill all the Arabs?
Thanks Joe - and thanks Todd.
Here's me applauding this new 'discovery' of hetergenous "jewry" in America. Glad to meet ya.
July 31, 2008 2:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
These are encouraging signs that the problem of divided loyalties is starting to gain traction in the MSM, first Jeffrey Goldberg and now Klein. Kudos to Todd, MJ and others at J street for helping push that ball along.
July 31, 2008 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
@ syvanen
Does this mean that you think that the Jewish neocons put the interests of Israel ahead of those of the United States? When you thank Jeffrey Goldberg, Klein, Todd and MJ are you doing so because you believe they share your views?
July 31, 2008 2:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jewish neocons may think they are putting the interests of Israel ahead of those of the United States but in actuality they are hurting both Israel and the USA and helping radical jihadis.
July 31, 2008 3:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
@ markg8
That's pretty clear.
So you believe that Jewish neocons are traitors who 've knowlingly and covertly sent American soldiers to die for the benefit of another country.
I'm sure you don't know any of them so how did you arrive at such a damning opinion?
July 31, 2008 4:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
From their words and actions you moron.
July 31, 2008 10:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
And there was nothing covert about it. These gibbering fools wanted to invade a country like Iraq since the downfall of the USSR to prove American military supremacy and to make the world safe for Likudnik apartheid policies against the Palestinians. Like any of that was ever gonna work. Read Wolfowitz's white paper he wrote in 1992 that Bush 1 had to disavow. This clown wanted to threaten Japan and India for cryin out loud to make the point to the whole world there's gonna be a Pax Americana for the forseeable future and to show we would not countenance any challenge to our authority.
Read their PNAC open letter to Clinton in the summer of 1998. Read anything Michael Ledeen's written before or after the invasion. He lost his security clearance in the 1980's for rifling thru files he had no business even looking at. "Liberal wimps" like George Schultz and Ollie North didn't trust his loyalties. And for good reason, one of his pals sold advanced avionics to Israel that wound up on Chinese fighter jets.
These people are seriously deluded, John McCain's top foreign policy adviser Randy Scheunemann was Project director at PNAC and one of Chalabi's handlers. You remember Chalabi don't you? All these twits loved him because he dug up charlatans to tell them exactly what they wanted to hear (without the torture!) and is now persona non grata with the US military for giving Iran classified information.
offensivetoyou I think your days of hijacking guest posts at TPM ought to come to an end. I have no say in the matter but you add nothing of value to any discussion you interject yourself into and are a textbook example of a troll. In short get lost little boy, you're impressing no one.
July 31, 2008 11:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
@ markg8
The Jewish neocons argued for the war. They didn't take us into it. That was the work of the President of the United States, his two closest advisors Cheney and Rumsfeld, any others, both Jew and gentile, who the President allowed to influence his decision, and the various Senators who voted to support him, and their advisors.
To prove that Jewish neocons were treasonous you would have to prove their motivations and arguments were different from those of the gentiles, something which you haven't done.
Deluded, even seriously deluded, isn't treasonous. You, for example, are really seriously deluded. Nuts I would say. You don't seem to realize that there are many, many other interpretations of every event you cited which are as good or better than the ones you take as gospel, as the word of God on High brought direct to you via Naom Chumpsky, Alexander Counterterpunch, Juanita Crybaby, and that whole crew.
August 1, 2008 10:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
@ markg8
For starters why don't you read "America's Secret War" by Dr. George Friedman, written in 2003. Friedman founded and runs Stratfor, the best private intelligence service on the planet. I'm not saying that his interpretation of events is correct, only that, at the time, it was as good or better than anyone else's.
Also, I worked for the RAND Corp. from 1961 to 1965 so I have pretty good, first-hand knowledge of how intelligence is obtained and by who and how it is analyzed.
Keep in mind, please, that I'm writing this for all the other readers, not for you. Even thinking about you turns my stomach.
August 1, 2008 10:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe you can cite some good reasons for selling highly classified avionics technology which then winds up in Red Chinese fighter jets. Let's hear you justify seeking out and promoting liars like Chalabi to sell the American public on a war we never should have fought. How about Perle trying to make a bundle in direct contravention of US policy and interests with the Kurds?
I don't care if the neocons think they are doing good for Israel and/or the USA while making cash on the side. The fact is their policies are terrible. They have accomplished the opposite, they've damaged both Israel and the US and they've done it illegally and unethically.
And when anyone calls them on their perfidy they scream "anti-semite!" as their last line of defense hoping to sidetrack the argument. No one I know of exempts Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld from blame, but imagine them trying to claim anyone who criticizes their Iraq strategy is anti-christian.
Regardless of race, creed or color they're all despicable incompetent ideologues from Bush on down who should never again get anywhere near the levers of power in our government, Israel's government or any other.
August 1, 2008 11:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
@ markg8
You remind me of a broken sewage pipe in a high rise - spraying shit in all directions, ruining everyone's plans, disgusting.
August 1, 2008 12:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Todd,
Good for you, and good for Joe Klein. I'm one of the people who regularly gives him a hard time in his comments section, but his stock went way up with me when he stood up and took on the neocons. It requires a Jewish voice to say what us goyim can't say- we get dismissed as 'anti-semtic.'
The way I figure it, Iraq provided a synergistic moment for the Israel hawks and the oil guys like Bush and Cheney. Their interests aligned perfectly.
July 31, 2008 4:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
One of the real difficulties in discussing the role of the Jewish neocons in pushing us to war, is that the basic question -- ie why did we go to war against Iraq? -- remains, in my opinion, unanswered.
Oil had to be a factor, at least in the minds of some of the players, but there is scant evidence that corporate oil backed this war.
Imperial hubris, the old let's go out and just kick some ass, that was so well articulated by Friedman.
The role of the Christian zionists was significant, especially in getting congress to go along.
And in this mix was the afore mentioned group that had moved into positions of incredible power and just guided things along along with their allies in Israel.
July 31, 2008 5:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
@ Gitlin
Here it is right in front of you. Say something, coward.
July 31, 2008 5:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here is a simple question that can be used to determine any Jews loyalty.
Do you think Jonathan Pollard should be released from prison?
July 31, 2008 6:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
@ Loviatar
A liberal for a loyalty test? My, my, my, just look at what's coming up from the sewers.
July 31, 2008 7:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
O f u,
Why is it considered coming up from the sewers to ask your opinion on Jonathan Pollard freedom?
You started this thread by indicating that it was offensive and wrong to question the neo-cons loyalty, that of course they were all loyal to the US and our anger at them was a result of their policy positions which stemmed from "honest disagreement" I happen to disagree with that comment.
I've found that that when I ask a neo-con my question about Jonathan Pollard I usually get one of two answers:
One is the dishonest answer; they get angry and defensive and refuse to answer while screaming anti-Semite at the top of their lungs.
or
Two is the honest answer; they tell you that they think he should be freed for all the usual reasons i.e. Israel is an ally, what he did wasn't that bad, he served long enough, etc.
So O f u,
Which answer are you going to give?
I think I know ;>)
July 31, 2008 10:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
@ loviatar
My answer is that you do not deserve freedom, that you have no business living in this country.
July 31, 2008 10:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are becoming a caricature of yourself ofu. Sort of a sepia tone asshole.
July 31, 2008 11:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
@ markg8
Jonathan Pollard was convicted of spying. Spying is a very serious crime often punishable by death, as it should be.
But our legal system, developed over centuries of struggle and at great cost, recognizes that no law is perfect, no crime is simple, and no human being is either purely innocent or purely guilty. So we have an elaborate system whereby each individual is allowed to present his case in public before a carefully chosen jury of his peers, and then the verdict is reviewed, if review is judged wise, all the way up to the Supreme Court, and beyond that to the President who can grant clemency is he thinks that affairs of state warrant it. Jonathan Pollard and his supporters have the right to make their case, just as anyone else does. That is my answer.
Loviatar, however, thinks he's devised a loyalty test which no Jew can pass [loyalty tests always have that aspect, which is why the historical left, the left when it actually had some relationship to decency, opposed them]. He smirks about it, and you support him. That renders you both, inhuman, unhuman, unfit to participate in human affairs, carriers of a disease which should long ago have been eradicated but which, evidently, and to my great surprise and shock, is loose in the Left, an epidemic which probably cannot be contained without the destruction of the Left itself.
August 1, 2008 9:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
I said nothing about Jonathan Pollard but I'm curious, anybody know what percentage of American jews think Pollard ought to be released? Be my guess you'd get at least a 50% response fro "Jonathan Who?" Among non-jewish Americans you'd probably get 80%.
August 1, 2008 10:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
@ markg8
This whole exchange is a response to Loviatar's proposed loyalty test, you dishonest piece of excrement.
What do it prove if Jews in large numbers do support Pollard? That they all have dual loyalties? Over 90% of blacks support Obama. Does that mean they have dual loyalties, or are you going to insist that Pollard is a convicted spy and Obama is not? Maybe Jews don't trust the legal system in this matter? Maybe they think Pollard's motives justify his actions? Maybe, maybe, maybe. Without asking you'll never no and it really is impossible to ask definitively, which is why we have trial by judge and jury and not by poll, newspaper, mob.
But I will tell you what I think, and I'm a Jew. I don't care about the fate of spies, I don't care about Pollard. Not because he isn't worthy of care, he most certainly is. But I don't have the time to care about everything and the fate of spies is very low on my list. Every country spy's. They all must. It's like garbage collection or water purification. Nasty jobs...but if they aren't done there are terrible consequences. And they spy not just on their enemies but on their friends, as they should. Nations don't have the same interests, friends can turn into enemies, and every nation has factions. So there are spies...and spies sometimes get caught and suffer their fate. What fate is that? Depends on their motives, the damage that they've done, who their friends are, the usual things.
But I do care about Loviatar, and I do care about you, and all those who think like you. You are what I've said you are; a threat to freedom far, far greater than all the Jonathan Pollards, all the Aldrich Ames, all the Rosenbergs.
August 1, 2008 11:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
This whole exchange is a response to Loviatar's proposed loyalty test
Well no this whole thread is about the jewish rightwing bullies trying to silence Joe Klein despite what you think.
What do it prove if Jews in large numbers do support Pollard? That they all have dual loyalties?
Do you think Pollard was convicted in a fair trial? Do the vast majority of American jews you think support or even know about Pollard think he was convicted in a fair trial? Do you and your unproven majority of jews think there should be an exception or leniency for spies from friendly countries who are caught spying on America? If you answer yes to those questions, especially the last one I'd say you have divided loyalties.
As a US taxpayer I'm pretty much a stickler for holding accountable those who damage our interests or cost our treasury money. In the 1980s Toshiba sold advanced machine tools they knew were on the excluded list to the Soviets that allowed them to make their submarine propellers almost as quiet as ours. The US Navy had to spend a lot of money upgrading our sonar sets to locate their boomers again. Around the same time GE who makes all our nuclear bomb triggers heavily lobbied congress to prevent nuclear disarmament agreements with the USSR. I haven't bought a Toshiba or GE product since.
And Pollard should rot in prison for the rest of his days. Hurt my country's interests and/or cost my treasury money and you go to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200 dollars.
ofu we didn't beat the Soviets by being more ruthless than the KGB. We won't beat radical jihadis by being more barbaric than Al Qaeda. Anybody who thinks we can torture our way to freedom is wrong. Anybody who thinks we can win the war of public opinion in Iraq and Afghanistan by simply killing more jihadis than kill us is wrong. Anybody who thinks we can spread democracy while giving it up at home via election fraud and government spying on our own people is wrong. And that is the great threat to freedom we face.
August 1, 2008 12:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
@ markg8
I said exchange because I meant exchange. If I'd have meant thread I would have said thread.
The thread is about Jewish neocons and how they should be characterized. Since you had no problem saying that they put the interests of Israel above those of the United States, and no problem supporting someone who wanted to administer loyalty tests to ALL Jews I discount everything you've said in your last post. Complete garbage.
August 1, 2008 6:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
From the Wikipedia article: "An FBI summary of a 1970 wiretap recorded Perle discussing classified information with someone at the Israeli embassy," writes Paul Findley (They Dare To Speak Out, Chicago, Ill, Lawrence Hill Books 1989)." This would not be a normal duty of an aide to a US Senator. However, Perle's primary loyalty would seem to be to himself as his government positions and business interests have been entangled.
August 1, 2008 1:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
@ zeno2vonnegut
If someone thinks Perle committed treason let him present his evidence and let Perle be tried if the evidence is judged to warrant it.
The Left is full of you vile vermin, isn't it?
Ugh.
August 1, 2008 9:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
@ zeno2vonnegut
I was seen talking to your mother. Does that mean I slept with her?
Excuse me, I must shower.
August 1, 2008 9:41 AM | Reply | Permalink