Joe Klein Won't Back Down -- Keeps Hitting Those Neocons!
Everybody predicted that TIME's Joe Klein would have to publish a major mea culpa after writing that the neocons played a major role in getting us into the Iraq war.
But he's not doing it. He is not allowing ridiculous charges of anti-semitism to stop him from saying what everybody knows: that although the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld crowd led the charge for war, they were supported and buttressed by neocons in the administration, on the Hill and the media.
This is a narrative some very powerful people do not like. They claim to fear that, because most of the neocons are Jews, Americans will conclude that the war on Iraq was pushed by the Jewish community.
Of course, that is not so. Although most neocons are Jews, few Jews are neocons. Every poll taken of Jewish opinion shows that, after African-Americans and non-Cuban Latinos, Jews have been the segment of the population most strongly opposed to military action against Iraq and Iran. This is no big surprise considering that 80% of Jews are Democrats, and the same percentages supported Gore, Kerry and will, no doubt, support Obama.
But the neocons aren't worried about the Jews. They are worried that any focus on the campaign they waged for war with Iraq will (as it should) utterly discredit them.
They are, in fact, one of the two groups that push the "neocons equal Jews" meme. The first is the anti-semites. Anti-semites want Americans to associate Jews with a hated war.
The second is the the neocons themselves. They want Americans not to follow the trail of war-mongering that leads not to Jews but to THEM.
Anyway, bravo to Joe Klein for fighting back. As for Feith and Perle and Kristol and Bolton and Wolfowitz and Wurmser and Brooks and Krauthammer and Wieseltier and COMMENTARY and THE NEW REPUBLIC and the WASHINGTON POST editors and the rest of that crowd, they should shut up and volunteer at Walter Reed. For the rest of their lives.
God love him!
July 30, 2008 1:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Joe's learned a lesson and he's not going to get bullied into saying anything that might be construed as support for a war in Iran.
As for the neocons, not only do they want to misdirect the anger of war critics, they want to be able to paint those critics as anti-Israel and ultimately as anti-Semites. How convenient. It's like a diversionary scapegoating. A new twist on an old and horrible rhetorical technique.
July 30, 2008 1:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Be sure you read the Telegraph article Rosenberg links. If you can read better than he can your in for some surprises.
July 30, 2008 3:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
There's nothing I find that surprising. Klein is making the legitimate argument that the Neocon worldview, which might be well-meaning in its attempts to secure both Israel and the United States is nonetheless misguided and is thus bad for both Israel and the US.
That's a point of view shared by Rosenberg and by a lot of people, Jewish or not, on the left.
The Telegraph writer ends with the question of why Klein is pointing the finger specifically at Jewish neocons. Why not John Bolton or Pastor Hagee? I'm not convinced that Klein is guilty of that. I'm sure Klein thinks that Bolton and Hagee are just as wrong as Charles Krathammer on these issues.
This whole issue of who is and isn't Jewish is just a distraction. We need to know who has the best strategy for keeping Israel and the US safe. That's the debate here.
offensivetoyou, what am I missing?
July 30, 2008 4:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
@ destor 23
This whole issue of who is and isn't Jewish is just a distraction
Exactly, the Jewish neocons are just some guys who think the Iraq war is in America's best interest.
Of course, Joe Klein may or may not have claimed to be a mind-reader, mystic, or Freud re-incarnated who could divine their intentions better than they themselves did. But we're all rational men who discount such nonsense.
So who keeps making an issue of their Jewishness? Why does it keep coming up? Why are they singled out from the other powerful men who proposed and pursued the same policy, and from the millions who supported, and continue to support, those men.
July 30, 2008 5:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Are you truly as obtuse as you appear?
July 30, 2008 6:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
@ coralsea
How would I know what you can see if you don't tell me?
July 30, 2008 7:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
But... is Joe Klein really singling out Jewish Neocons? Seems to me that he's not and is really talking about Neocons who believe they are acting in the best interests of Israel and the US but aren't. Klein's enemies are accusing him of singling out Jewish people in order to discredit him. But, that's not what he's doing.
July 30, 2008 10:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
@ destor23
That's how Ami Eden sums up Klein's position. But then he/she goes on to say
But what’s still unclear (at least to me) is why he insists on using “Jewish” to modify the term neoconservative.
Interestingly, Daniel Levy says Mersheimer and Walt find "lobbies to be as natural to Americans as apple pie". Ditto dual loyalties since virtually all Americans are descendants of people who only recently got here.
Nonetheless it is the Left who has accused Jewish neocons of not just dual loyalty but disloyalty. I haven't decided whether Rosenberg has gone quite that far but he's come awfully close...while at the same time being less than candid about the relationship between the IPF and Labor/Meretz.
July 30, 2008 11:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
July 30, 2008 4:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
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July 30, 2008 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
@ ohiomeister
Translation;
I'm right about everything so anyone who posts anything I don't like is clearly wrong and probably inexcusably rude.
July 30, 2008 6:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
gee, that's a pretty terrible translation. but then i prefer it in the original english anyway...
July 30, 2008 11:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
tnathan,
I think I can say with confidence, you ARE NOT a PhD.
July 30, 2008 5:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
@ tnathan
If you never publish another thing, if you are banned for posting this, remember that you've given at least one guy something to laugh about for a long time.
July 30, 2008 5:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why would tnathan be banned for posting what he did?
The post did not denigrate any particular class of folks nor was hateful, threatening, or libelous.
July 30, 2008 8:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
@ chris brown
How do I know? Ohiomeister addressed his post to nathan. He must have thought it had some relevance.
July 30, 2008 8:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've been waiting for you to weigh in this. I saw it last night at Atrios' place. I would like to see Marshall come out of his cave more often and take this issue on.
I must say that I'm glad to see MSM people take on this issue. This is huge, in my view, as what the Neocons are doing is exactly what will foment anti-semitism in this country over time. Like these so-called "fundamentalist" Christians from my background, these Neocon fools are gonna destroy the "brand," so to speak, and create a backlash that might not appear among the intelligentsa, so to speak, but will appeak among the common people.
We need to support Joe.
July 30, 2008 8:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
@ Tony Shifflett
Would you care to expand on that? What is it that the neocons are doing that would foment anti-semitism?
July 30, 2008 8:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
July 30, 2008 9:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are right, Tony. The idea that America was pushed into war by people whose prime interest is Israel does produce antisemitism. The fact that these neocon/IsraelFirsters are a tiny % of the Jewish community can easily be overlooked especially because the neo/IF crowd is so loud.
July 30, 2008 10:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
@ Rosenberg
The idea that America was pushed into war by people whose prime interest is Israel does produce antisemitism
Would you make that clear please? Are you saying that the Jewish neocons, and the people who run AIPAC, put Israeli interests BEFORE American interests?
I've never been clear about your position. Sometimes you seem to say that. Other times you've said that the AIPAC position represents a recognition of the commonality of interests of the American and Israeli war parties.
Also "IPF was created, as Kenneth Levin notes in The Oslo Syndrome, "at the behest of Israel's Labor-Meretz coalition government and placed under the leadership of … Jonathan Jacoby, who had earlier in his career signed a New York Times ad accusing Israel of 'state terrorism.'". Doesn't that make you an agent of an Israeli political party?
July 30, 2008 10:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
MJ used to work for AIPAC. His position has never been that they put Israeli interests before American interests. He has said, on occasions, that AIPAC has been mistaken about what is in the interests of both Israel and the US. But that's all. He has always assumed that they have the best of intentions and he has sometimes concluded that they have made errors in judgment that make their intentions harder and harder to fulfill.
July 30, 2008 10:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
@ destor23
Here's a Rosenberg argument that really bothers me
July 30, 2008 11:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
blockquote should only apply to the first paragraph.
July 30, 2008 11:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think that Tony is right.
The Jewish "brand," so to speak was irreversibly damaged when very tiny minority of Jews killed Jesus Christ. The fact that these Jesus Christ killers were a tiny % of the Jewish community has been overlooked for 2000 years.
July 31, 2008 12:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
More on Joe Klein and NEOCONS
http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/07/jeffrey-goldberg-has-a-great-interview-with-joe-klein-on-his-blog-where-klein-stands-by-his-criticism-of-jewish-neocons-as-h.html
July 30, 2008 10:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Joe Klein has a right to condemn people like Feith and Wolfowitz and Perle without being labeled anti-semitic, but does Joe Klein believe that Israel should wait to see what Iran will do with some nukes? I know he doesn't want the U.S. to strike Iran preemptively, and he may be right, but has he laid out a persuasive case for Israel to wait?
July 30, 2008 10:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Um... I might be wading into contentious territory here but... Israel is our client state. We've given them enormous amounts of financial, political and military support. They really shouldn't attack anyone without our permission.
July 30, 2008 10:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
"but does Joe Klein believe that Israel should wait to see what Iran will do with some nukes?"
I think he'd favor diplomacy (i.e talking) first. A preemptive attack on Iran is no more warranted than one against China, Pakistan or any other of the scary states that develops nukes. So, yes, you wait. And talk.
July 30, 2008 10:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Juan Cole has a terrific piece on tomorrow's Salon:
Why Bush folded on Iran
Reality, of the military and petroleum-based variety, forced the administration to change course. Now Bush sounds like Obama.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/07/31/iran/
July 30, 2008 10:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
@ coralsea
Do you believe that when one idiot says another is brilliant it becomes true? When two or three or five say so?
July 31, 2008 10:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
I know what you say, Mr. Rosenberg. What does Klein say?
July 30, 2008 10:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Anti-semites want Americans to associate Jews with a hated war.
Which hated war? -- I've become an anti semite - because JEWS ARE the force behind the last 3 hated wars.
AND I was not privy to the reasoning because Jews [yes, Jews] have controlled the message in America since 1948.
Anti semitism is the moral high ground.
Even Liberal Jews don't betray their ethnocentric biology.
The world has gaggles of geese, herds of sheep, a murder of crows - and, yes, Virginia - a hive of Jews.
July 31, 2008 1:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
@ santafe21
Do you know many people who share your views? If so, who are they? I mean what are their politics, their backgrounds, and how did they arrive at their present positions?
July 31, 2008 2:27 PM | Reply | Permalink