OMG: We're homogeneous, but are we that extreme?

Here's another potentially big problem with the Big Sort (again, the phenomenon, not the book). Sorting can make the electorate, as a whole, look more radicalized and polarized than it really is.
Is the public more politically polarized, across the board, than it used to be? Could be, and I wish I knew. That question is at the center of a big and unsettled debate within political science. But this much is certain: just because you and I are sorted into more homogeneous communities, it doesn't mean that you and I, as individuals, are more likely to disagree, or that we disagree more strongly. Maybe these things are true, but sorting, by itself, doesn't make them so.
At the same time, sorting can create an illusion of greater overall disagreement. Why? The simple reality of aggregating preferences and attributing, ultimately, one preference to one location. Which, for many purposes in any democracy, is just unavoidable. You can only elect one House member. And the media legitimately need some kind of handle to describe you.
Suppose, for just a moment, that every person in America could safely be labeled "a moderate liberal" or "a moderate conservative". Then suppose that, over time, the moderate liberals all wind up in the same place; likewise with the moderate conservatives.
Almost any way that you choose to average the preferences, you will see trends that suggest that "liberal town" and "conservative town" are moving ideologically apart from each other. And you can't easily disprove those claims. If those claims work to your political advantage, you use them. Under these circumstances, it's indisputable that the mythical "average" resident of "conservative town" is more conservative than she used to be.
While this is going on, it's possible that not one person has changed his or her mind about anything. And they're saying, "geez, I don't feel more radical".
Look at the graph published by Morris Fiorina and Samuel Abrams earlier this year*:

This graph reports percentages of different responses to political ideology questions on a seven-pont scale using the General Social Survey.
The graph is a little hard to read, but notice that more people call themselves "moderate" than any other ideological category, by a wide margin. You probably expect as much. But it's also rock steady, even as The Big Sort has unfolded.
Now, this self-identification could misrepresent what people really believe, but it's a puzzle. Especially given what we know about the increased polarization and increased ideological distance between elites and elected officials. Not to mention all the evidence about sorting from Bill.
Here's a test you might think about in your own legislative or congressional district: if you wanted to win office, which is more decisive: the primary or the general election? At the point when the primary election matters most, a lot changes. Even if voters haven't become more extreme.
Finally, it's still entirely plausible that sorting often, and maybe always, provokes greater disagreement because it kicks off a chain reaction of social processes. Bill discusses the ways that social networks, groupthink, and the spiral of silence among ideological minorities, can all radicalize individuals.
My suspicion is that those additional social forces are really important, but they unfold more in some places than others. And if you look for other places that are both homogeneous and where people are legitimately wondering, "OMG, it doesn't seem like we're that extreme", you can find them.
* Fiorina, Morris and Samuel J. Abrams, 2008. Political Polarization in the American Public. Annual Review of Political Sciencee, v. 11, p. 571.














Read my post under Mr. Smith's "Not the Marketing model". They are along the same lines as your ideas here.
July 23, 2008 2:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
I saw your comments on that post. I think you're referring to the general need to isolate and specify sorting, apart from other variables and processes.
If you meant something else, please pass it along; I'm not sure if I'm making the link you have in mind.
July 23, 2008 3:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not good at getting across what my sense of the conversation. I guess I'm not convinced that sorting is really useful exercise to study political movements. For me, so much of these kinds of political surveys are dependent on what questions you ask and how you ask them. Not only that, but what you choose look for. If you get it wrong, and you think you got it right, then you can send yourself on tangent that waste valuable time. Finally, I'm not convinced we fit into neat political piles. Its easier to look at tangibles like income brackets for stratification. After all there are quite a few wealthy leftist and at least as many poor conservatives. No one even mentions zoning laws for instance and how they work to guide people to certain areas based on income. Just a thought.
July 23, 2008 6:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
I guess I'm having difficulty with the idea that people are choosing to nest based on largely political grounds.
July 23, 2008 6:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think everyone here agrees that people don't decide where to live on the basis of politics. Maybe occasionally, and maybe you know someone, but no one in this forum, including Bill, assumes that people do this.
The truth is, sorting doesn't require ANY self-conscious desire for similarity in neighbors and tastes. Those desires might spur the process, but they aren't necessary.
An earlier comment in another thread mentioned economist Thomas Schelling; look at his work, and these kinds of sorting problems will hook you for life.
Having said all this, I have a non-scientific, and slightly off-topic, curiosity about modern movements that encourage migration decisions in pursuit of a political goal. The Libertarian Free State movement, encouraging Libertarians to move into New Hampshire, illustrates the idea. I once heard they got about 600 Libertarians. You Libertarians in the house: what's going on with this?
July 23, 2008 2:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's a test you might think about in your own legislative or congressional district: if you wanted to win office, which is more decisive: the primary or the general election? At the point when the primary election matters most, a lot changes. Even if voters haven't become more extreme.
Not necessarily. In a de facto one party district, the primary is the election for local and most state offices and nothing changes.
July 23, 2008 7:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
It is true, of course, that the nature of voting tends to make everything look extreme. For President, we can only vote for one of two people (ignoring the odd third-party candidate now and again). So the choices are two-fold, one versus the other. Voting makes everything look stark, and thus extreme.
Nevertheless, extremity is evident in the patterns of voting. When you live in a place that votes in a landslide, then you live in a place where everybody votes the same. Certainly, nuance gets erased. No doubt about that. But the end result is a geographic area in which all nuances converge on one result. The nuances don't divide between two results. They lead everyone to the same vote.
What we have today are geographic clusters that split out this way. Not just red and blue clusters. Rather, overwhelmingly red vs. overwhelmingly blue clusters. That's extreme. People no longer live where voting is diverse; people now live where voting is uniform. On an aggregate basis, looked at across geographies, that means extremity -- one group that is all one way vs. another group that is all another way.
And as Bill takes pains to show in his book, the result of living in places where every nuance leads to the same outcome is ever more extremity of views within those geographies. Sure, nationally, these extreme views average out -- that's what national polls show. But within these communities, there is no averaging out. Extremity rules. That's the danger of "the big sort."
July 23, 2008 10:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Doesn't all this depend on who is doing the sorting? It may not be the voters who are self-sorting, but the legislators who are gerrymandering districts to produce the exact sorting they need and desire.
We have always self-sorted into communities of similarities - Italian neighborhoods, Jewish neighborhoods, Irish Catholic neighborhoods, rich neighborhoods, poor neighborhoods what seems to be different is that we no longer have the ward heelers who sorted the voters, but a computer program that is even more precise in assuring votes for candidates.
July 23, 2008 11:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Two points:
First, if we've always sorted — and this phenomenon is nothing new — then why have the measures of political segregation increased markedly since the mid-70s? Why does geography matter more to the vote now than three decades ago?
Second, these figures are based on county boundaries, so they won't be affected by gerrymandering. Moreover, there is no evidence that gerrymandering is the reason congressional districts are growing more homogenous.
July 23, 2008 2:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Re: First, if we've always sorted — and this phenomenon is nothing new — then why have the measures of political segregation increased markedly since the mid-70s?
Why not go back a bit further than the 70s? Remember the Solid South? Or for that matter the old solidly Republican New England? Maybe the post-WWII generation was the exception not the rule, a period when the country was sufficiently up-ended by social and economic changes to mix people together more than was the norm.
July 23, 2008 9:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
There's no evidence? Oh my gosh, I think there's plenty of evidence. All one has to do is look at how districts are drawn to encapsulate the proper proportion of desired voters. Admittedly, this is based on some general perusing of one state's political boundaries, but I suspect it holds for any state where politicians choose their voters. I mean, where they control the redistricting process.
It may be that no studies have been done. I dunno. I haven't researched it that much.
But I do know that when the district in which I live was redrawn in 03, it was drawn to be more white and more conservative. As many of the minorities as could be were drawn into another district designed to elect a Democrat. Now if that's not drawing a district so it is more homogeneous, then I'm perhaps misunderstanding what you mean.
July 24, 2008 1:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
I've only had a chance to skim Morris and Abrams, but it looks like there may be a flaw in the studies that they're citing, at least with the GES and NSS data. They describe both as using Likert style questions with respondents self-rating. Bad idea.
The issue here is what each person answering the survey considers their peer group. If you and all your friends are liberal, you rate yourself relative to your friends. Oddly enough, you choose moderate. With a conservative group the same thing applies - you probably fit into the moderate category for your own peer group. The problem is in assuming that the peer groups are equivalent. In many cases, they aren't.
Here's a nice short overview of the issue as applied to cultural norms in two different countries. Despite real cultural differences, both groups tended to report that they were 'moderate':
Heine, S. J., Lehman, D. R., Peng, K., & Greenholtz, J. (2002). What's wrong with cross-cultural comparisons of subjective Likert scales?: The reference-group effect. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 82(6), 903-918.
July 23, 2008 2:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good catch, and you could extend a critique of this kind of data much further (e.g., do people call themselves moderate only because they don't know what else to say?).
Here's one thing I find surprising, though: "conservative" is a word with a lot of demonstrated positive affect for many people, and that affect, I'm pretty sure, has grown since the 1970's.
I would want to understand, apart the reasons you mention, why the percentage of conservative self identifiers hasn't really budged. Your point explains a lot, but does it explain the flat lines?
July 23, 2008 2:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obviously, if you have two sets of mixed As (say "conservatives") and Bs (say "liberals") and you move all As into set-A (Maricopa County) and all Bs into set-B (San Fransisco) the difference between the average attitudes of the members of the two sets will now be greater even though no individual member changed his/her attitude.
Isn't there a method to correct for what looks -- to a non-mathematician like myself -- to be a straightforward computational (stochastic statistical?) problem?
July 23, 2008 2:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sure; there's much great economics and poli sci literature that looks at migration, all with a fair amount of mathematical sophistication. Bill's book cites a lot of it. Measuring the political consequences is still really hard, for several reasons.
The two biggest, I think, are a) the data aren't good, (which isn't unique to this topic) and even more importantly b) migration is so gradual, even though it's persistent.
About 14% of Americans move annually these days, but only 3% move far enough to change their Congressional District, for example. In the time that a significant sorting effect has taken place, a lot of other things have happened: the issues have changed, to one degree or another, the social interactions, or the places themselves, have shaped or changed the preferences of recent arrivals. People get older.
As they say, measuring these effects can seem like putting gas into a moving car.
There are strategies for dealing with these problems, but they are challenging.
July 23, 2008 3:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Then, if migration is not significant, can't we say that changes in the set's average attitude is explained by group self-reinforcement ("extremicizing") of attitudes?
July 23, 2008 3:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ah, but migration IS important; but it's effects aren't easy to measure, and in most places, the effect accumulates over some time.
As I mentioned in my second post, there are places in the country that are growing insanely fast, and these places (I think) have untapped power for testing theories.
And...it seems plausible that migration interacts with the self-reinforcement you describe. A great out-of-print book from the 1980's by Thad Brown (Migration and Politics) notes that movers skew in the direction of young and, therefore, impressionable.
Are places like Forsyth County near Atlanta that is a) growing insanely and b) very conservative producing this effect? This would mean that migration increases the power of Forsyth County's socializing effect.
July 23, 2008 3:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd really need to see the questions as they were asked on the original survey. The difference could be between a 'how would you rate yourself' question where the moderate answer would be expected, and a potentially more informative 'how would you rate a person described as 'very conservative', 'conservative', 'moderate' 'liberal' and 'very liberal', which would call for 5 separate responses. Not surprisingly, it costs more to do five questions than one. Given the realities of survey research, I'd guess that the 'self rating' question would be more likely.
I'm not sure if this is 'the' answer, just a possibility. Easiest way to check of course would be to write Morris and ask what the deal is with the data. :-)
July 23, 2008 3:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's even easier than that: the General Social Survey is published on line. It's a product of the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago. Here's the site: http://www.norc.org/projects/General+Social+Survey.htm
July 23, 2008 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well...I've reached a point in my life that allows me to relocate geographically. As important to my consideration as rewarding geographic and geologic specifics are to my search, they are no more so than the political ideals of the local residents I would be sourrounding myself with.
Half a lifetime of being surrounded by reactionary nutjobs and evangelical elephants is long enough for me.
Coppenhagen here I come. Maybe.
July 24, 2008 12:35 PM | Reply | Permalink