Why I Voted Against the FISA Amendments Act
Earlier today I voted "no" on the FISA Amendments Act (H.R. 6304). Speaking from the floor of the House of Representatives, I noted that if this bill becomes law, it perhaps will be the only lasting legacy of the Bush-Cheney Administration overhaul of our national security policy: a Congressionally-blessed distortion of checks and balances.
You have already read my concerns that this legislation does not adhere to the principles that should be included in any reform of FISA. I would like to go beyond the original post and address some of the bill's specifics, which some readers have commented about.
This bill does have some good features. It clarifies that FISA and Title III wiretap laws are the exclusive means by which the government may conduct surveillance on U.S. soil. It also provides for Inspector General reviews of the actions of the Department of Justice, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, the National Security Agency, and the Department of Defense in President Bush's domestic surveillance program. And it contains provisions designed to improve oversight of surveillance programs within the executive branch. However, there is much in this bill that falls short.
This bill alters the basic protections of the Fourth Amendment. It permits massive warrantless surveillance. (The authors of the bill dispute this, but if we mean "warrant" in the sense defined in the Constitution and if we recognize that targets can include types or classes of people and all their buddy lists, then my statement stands). The approval is for any intelligence not just against non-state terrorists (who were the reason given for the needed overhaul of our intelligence legislation). There is no statutory standard defining how the communications of innocent Americans will be protected, just a requirement that procedures be developed. A "fishing expedition" approach to intelligence collection does not produce good intelligence and does not make us safer.
Although the bill forbids "reverse targeting" (using a permissible targeted person overseas to get information about an American person not court-approved for surveillance), it provides no specific statutory protections against it. This is a critical point that I cannot emphasize enough. Millions of Americans - whether they are at home or abroad - are talking and emailing with people all over the world. This bill permits their communications to be swept up in a giant electronic dragnet, without any statutory mechanism for recognizing and removing communications of Americans collected incidentally. Of course, we have government assurances that this would not happen. But it has happened in the past.
The previous FISA bills that passed the House contained a "significant purpose" test to ensure that surveillance not be conducted on Americans. In other words, if the significant purpose of the intelligence collection was to gather information on an American. If someone began collecting information on an American or began using information without a legitimate need to know, that would be reported or discovered pretty quickly. That language was dropped from the bill considered today.
The court review provisions are weak and narrowly defined. Some have suggested that some court review is better than no court review. That's only true if the judges' hands aren't tied in the review process, which they are in this bill.
This bill does not state explicitly that a judge can modify a surveillance order to ensure that Fourth Amendment protections are adhered. Instead this bill takes a "check list" approach to judicial review: if the executive branch-certified elements are included in a surveillance request, the judge must approve it. The list includes the targeting and minimization procedures, as well as affidavits from government officials and any supporting information. The language does not give the court the authority to investigate the truthfulness or accuracy of the affidavits required of government officials or the supporting information they certify. The court's only role is to confirm or deny that an affidavit has been submitted. That's not judicial review, it's a rubber stamp.
Additionally, under this bill, even if a judge denies a surveillance request, the electronic spying can continue during the appeals process. Under FISA and existing Title III wiretap laws, if the judge denies the order, collections stop until the government changes its surveillance approach to make it legal.
Moreover, the "exigent circumstance" provision in this bill, which allows surveillance without prior court approval, is worded in such a way as to exclude even minimal court involvement. Because surveillance can proceed without court approval if collection of information would be delayed, the court is effectively bypassed. There need not be any emergency, and the information could even be routine in nature. Because any wiretap not connected means some information is not collected, every situation could be considered an "exigent circumstance." Someone assured the negotiators of this bill that the exigent collection clause "would not be used frequently", but that is hardly a substitute for good legislative language.
Under FISA, emergency surveillance was just that - surveillance that was necessary because of an imminent threat to life and limb. This bill grants the government the kind of broad surveillance authority that the House has previously repeatedly rejected.
The bill was presented to the House with less than 24 hours to review before voting. Anything this serious, this complicated, this contentious - and with very quick review before passage - should be revisited soon. This bill could have included a one-year sunset so we could have the opportunity to revisit the implementation of these changes. Indeed, that was the one silvering lining with the discredited so-called "Protect America Act" - it had a six-month sunset provision. Instead, the bill before us will sunset in four years. This is too long, and will make it more difficult for us to easily and quickly make changes to this bill if, as I expect, major adjustments to its provisions prove necessary.
Finally, this bill includes provisions that will make it impossible for American citizens to hold telecommunications companies accountable for any involvement they may have had in the Bush-Cheney Administration's illegal surveillance program. Under this bill, if the Administration provides certifications to the court that the companies cooperated at the request of the President, the suits would be dismissed. Secret evidence may be used, and the plaintiffs are barred access to that information--even in ex parte or in camera proceedings. If enacted, the bill would make legal any illegal behavior that may have occurred. A better solution was contained in the bill that the House passed in March, which would have allowed the lawsuits to go forward and would have also permitted the companies to defend themselves by making all relevant information available in judicial proceedings with appropriate secrecy protections.
I regret that the House has again elected to grant the executive branch sweeping, unwarranted, and unconstitutional surveillance powers, and at the same time denied potentially wronged citizens their day in court. It is a decision we are likely to rue, and soon.















Thank you for voting againt the bill. Your vote does matter and we will remember it.
June 20, 2008 7:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bluebell, I hope you don’t mind me piggybacking on your comment, but I wanted to thank Rep. Holt (and you and fellow TPMers) for opposing this travesty. I also wanted to get this in above Kozmik’s misrepresentations of Holt’s and other opponent’s positions below. I’d ask Kozmik to look into Rush Holt’s work on this before lecturing him on “politics.”
Congressman Holt could be called an expert on this by now who is taking a principled and pragmatic stand, and has been trying to our protect civil liberties during the Bush reign. It is no more ridiculous to say that this bill infringes on constitutional rights as it was to say the MCA did (which the SC has now confirmed).
I believe the original bill Rep. Holt wrote to reform the PAA, which didn’t get out of committee, was probably the most reasonable bill of all with the best safeguards to protect against abuses (some of which he got tacked onto the Judiciary bill and even survived here). His characterization of this bill is not political posturing or spin but an honest assessment of what this bill really means. Again, thank you for your conscientious work Congressman Holt.
June 20, 2008 11:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's not a matter of him being an expert on the issue or how long he's been involved with it.That part is appreciated.
I agree with his intents. I'm not satisfied with how he's presented the issues here. That raises questions about his leadership in the House on this issue; given the loss, and given the problems I see in his presentation.
I want leadership that is persuasive, not just to the choir, but to build a coalition to win. Protest votes don't do much for me.
June 21, 2008 7:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm glad Holt voted against it. So would I have.
Having said that, it would have passed regardless, because of Bluedog support. So, there is the political reality.
On the one hand, I appreciate his advocacy on the issue.
On the other hand, we lost this one. So I'd like to see Holt and everyone focus on winning, on getting a majority of votes, rather than symbolic protest votes of conscience.
I hope the Senate can strip the immunity provision, though it seems rather dubious as the Senate is usually more conservative than the House due to disproportional representation of low population red states.
I would also like to see more Democrats in office so such compromises aren't necessary, which requires we all do our part to elect them, rather than just bellyaching they don't presently exist, or blaming party leadership for their inability to conjure them from thin air.
Goof balls, fifth columns, and provocateurs, who want to form circular firing squads to blame the most progressive pols for the votes of blue dogs, accomplish nothing except helping the opposition.
June 20, 2008 7:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
btw, I have to add Holt's characterization of the bill is rather exaggerated, and self serving, to make his opposition seem all the more noble. This is a complaint I've also had of Feingold, where he's imploded several times from begin too close to issues.
While I agree the retroactive immunity stinks, and overall I would like to see more restricting on domestic surveillance, we should also be honest about what this bill improves.
This bill does put doemstic surveilance back under FISA. Which, under Bush, is the best that could be hoped for as he'd surely veto anything more restrictive. Otherwise, the status quo is Bush continuing totally illegal wiretapping, with the prospect of Bluedogs and Republicans passing an even worse bill.
Holt makes the point that once surveillance is initially denied, it can continue until appeal. To put that in perspective, FISA always allowed for surveillance to be begun and then judicially reviewed after the fact. That is fairly universally agreed to be necessary for speedy response in legitimate operations. Unless Holt is arguing against appeal altogether, the premise that surveillance can continue while under judicial review, seems reasonable.
The more important question is: what happens to that intelligence if the surveillance is ultimately denied? furthermore, what putative action can be taken if the executive is found to continue abusing the process.
With surveillance once again being fully reviewed by FISA and properly tracked, once again Congressional oversight can respond to abuses. That should be #1 priority, and this bill does seem to improve that immensely.
***
Again, important improvements were made in those areas, and that's about as good as it would get considering bluedogs and Bush's veto.
***
I support Holt's advocacy for this issue, and would like to see him succeed. But, I don't appreciate his hyperbolic characterizations of this loss, or that of some demagogues like Barbara Lee. It's pandering, and really isn't helpful. It misinforms our politics, and ultimately comes back on us later.
I'd ask Holt to continue his advocacy, but to play it straight.
June 20, 2008 7:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Holt fairly acknowledges the improvements, which are few in number. He was right to oppose the bill, as you said, but he opposed it honestly and as presented himself honestly here. You have such a fear of people using issues for rhetorical or political gain that you seem to have no sense of when people are playing straight with you.
Either that or you're trying to keep the heat off of Obama, which I understand but you're misguided.
June 20, 2008 8:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just pointed out specifically what I disliked about Holt's coverage of this issue. It's right there. Learn to read Destor.
June 20, 2008 8:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Another example of hyperbole that's probably not going to win Holt many converts in the House, and may very well be counterproductive by making him seem overly zealous:
No. To act as though it's a cut and dried Constitutional issue and those opposed to him are shredding the Constitution. That's hyperbole.
It's a technical issue rooted in this century and the nature of electronic communications regarding the breadth of warrants and defining reasonable searches. There are existing warrants which allow a certain breadth of surveillance that most people would consider reasonable.
For example, suspected mobsters may have phones wire tapped pursuant to a particular case, and then conversations monitored to determine if they're relevant. There are restrictions on that to prevent fishing expeditions, but on the other hand, the surveillance does have a degree of breadth as well.
It's not a cut and dried Constitutional issue, nor is it reasonable to say the 4th Amendment is being "altered." Obviously the 4th amendment didn't foresee email and such. It's more appropriate to say we need to interpret the principle of the 4th Amendment to electronic communication. Email and such is a new dilemma that must be addressed reasonably to find a balance.
***
I happen to agree with with Holt overall. I don't think the sort of data mining and casting of wide nets, such as is being conducted, is reasonable. Even worse, the sort of data mining being done in the private sector, by companies like Choice Point, which is then sold to law enforceemnt, is absolutly atrocios circumvention of the law. Surveillance has gone way too far and exploited the possibilities of electronic surveilance without due consideration for how it may be abused.
***
But again, Holt acting as though this is a simple 4th Amendment issue is just hyperbole and pandering to whip up support. I don't like that because it ultimately hurts our politics and makes the electorate more prone to sensationalism and pandering.
It's really not that cut and dried.
While it may gratify Holt and followers to wrap themselves in Constitutional certainty, it's apparently not helping convince Bluedogs or win.
It's complex and requires leadership wiling to educate the public and negotiate politically, not just preach to the choir.
June 20, 2008 8:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
It always fascinates me how Bush's veto is this magical power that supposedly automatically gives him the high road for voting against a piece of legislation that he strongly opposes.
All we're asking is that Democrats do the same. "Veto" a bad bill. Don't vote for it. Take a stand on principle. And maybe, someday, some of that magical power will come back to our side.
June 20, 2008 7:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's nonsense. The reality Bush has a veto, bludogs and Republicans support this bill or something worse, and the status quo is really awful.
There's nothing magical about it. It's about as cold hard facts as it gets.
If you can't grok that, you shouldn't even be discussing politics cause you have no grasp on how it functions.
Our choices are:
1) Maintain the status quo which is unfettered surveillance, while delaying or otherwise waiting for Republicans and Bluedogs to pass this bill or something worse. Perhaps with Pelosi blocking it for a short term, thereby handing Republicans a political majority and victory in a public battle.
2) Take the best compromise and improvement we can get can get now, and then amend it later with a larger majority, after November, with Obama in the WH and with a larger and more progressive majority in Congress.
There's no 3rd option where bellyaching and tantrums makes everything good, changes the power differential, removes Bush's veto, or makes the Bluedogs vanish. That would truly be magical!
June 20, 2008 7:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Or, let the old bill expire in August, go back to the original FISA regime and vote on a new FISA bill after the elections.
June 20, 2008 7:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's option #1 Destor. And it's pretty delusional, showing an ignorance to how politics actually work in reality.
Pelosi couldn't block this that long against bipartisan (Bluedog and Republican) support.
Get real. Back to earth Destor.
It would be a disaster if she tried. Her leadership would be totally undermined, a wedge driven in the party, and many other issues would suffer as a result. As important as FISA is, there are lots of issues that will come up between now and Jan 2009, that are just as important.
***
I've said it before, many of your views are so disconnected from reality, you may as well be a Freeper.
That you call yourself a "libertarian Democrat" doesn't surprise me as Libertarians are almost universally goof balls, right or left. Libertarianism is itself a simplistic ideology that appeals to those seeking simple answers.
The only Dems I've met who sound like you in the real world, are always hippies and goof balls, wondering why they've been such a disaster over the last few decades, and taking zero responsibility for it.
June 20, 2008 8:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tired of your lectures, Koz.
You're exactly the kind of appeaser who should take responsibility for the Democratic party's worst failures.
June 20, 2008 8:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tired of your bumper sticker mentality. Lose that, and i won't have to lecture you.
June 20, 2008 8:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's been nice having you as my personal troll honeybunch, but I'm dumping you over your excessive wankery in this thread. Have a nice life.
June 20, 2008 9:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't forget to take your ball with you.
June 20, 2008 9:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your excuses for Obama and the Democrat's inexcusable support for this circumvention of the Constitution is now devolving Koz into shameless namecalling. You don't need to go there. Better that you just quit trying to make excuses for this horrendous, deplorable action on the part of the Democrats and our glorious leader Obama.
June 20, 2008 9:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah whatever. Feel free to refute the points I laid out.
In the meanwhile, you can keep up the blather of "capitulation" and such nonsense, I'll continue to call that bumper sticker mentality as no substitution for serious policy discussion and de facto Freeping or just plain goofy, and you can keep pissing and moaning about it.
June 20, 2008 9:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Again, with no justification your argument devolves into namecalling. You really have no call for that behavior. All of the excuses and rationale you come up with for Obama's... yes capitulation on telecom immunity just don't stand up. You're better off stopping at making your excuses for his actions and not resorting to namecalling. I haven't noticed anyone calling you names even now. Please... chill. Obama is wrong on this one and no excuse of yours or his can make it otherwise.
June 20, 2008 10:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Again: Feel free to refute the points I laid out.
Or, keep whining about your hurt feelings and calling me names for calling you stupid.
June 20, 2008 10:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Koz,
As far as I can tell you aren't making any points. You are simply condemning those you disagree with and calling them names and hurling insults. Nobody is doing that to you. You need to be more mature and stop that. We get that you can live with the "compromise" that many of us consider a betrayal of trust and a capitulation to the demands of the Republicans and their co-conspirators in the telecom corporations. Many of us disagree with that point of view because we believe the Constitution should not be subject to the political calculations of the fools who, based on similar logic, enabled the illegal invastion of Iraq. You are saying you think that revisiting this tactic is the smart thing to do and the realistic thing to do. Many of us disagree and believe that it is not only not smart, but it precisely the cause of so much of the misery and difficulties we are experiencing now both from a political point of view and with respect to most of the difficulties that Democratic enablers have allowed to happen since Bush seized power in 2000. We disagree. Srongly. Despite this, there is no call for your less than grown up personal attacks.
June 20, 2008 11:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Again: Feel free to refute the points I laid out about the parliamentary process and the possible options under the circumstances.
June 21, 2008 1:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
The behavior of the Democrats over this whole FISA and government secrecy stuff makes me think they're covering their own asses because they too complicit in it themselves. Bush has them by the short hairs and can make them cave, over and over, because they're guilty, too.
That's real politics, too, Koz. Corruption.
June 21, 2008 9:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
OK, let's hear your solution.
What alternative course of action would you have preferred? It has to be viable and result in a better outcome. It can't be wishful thinking.
Ok: Go! Let's hear it.
June 21, 2008 8:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama--as a matter of principle--should have come out against any bill that has retroactive
immunity. Period. That might not change the outcome in the end but it would signal that he has some balls and some integrity.
Anyone can vote with the majority and say "It would have passed whether I voted for or against the bill , so I voted for it"... That's not logic, that's crap
June 22, 2008 1:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
. It is actually worse. Obama is saying something like "I am against retroactive immunity but because the bill would have passed with that retroactive immunity even if I had voted against it, I will vote for it". That's horseshit.
June 22, 2008 1:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
You were holding your own, possibly even winning this argument as far as I'm concerned, until you went for the ad hominum.
June 21, 2008 3:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
The way we make the bluedogs vanish is to stop voting for them. Obama can vote with the bluedogs or he can vote with the progressives. It's his choice next week and it's my choice in November.
June 20, 2008 7:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
What are you even talking about? Talk about speculating out of your butt.
This hasn't even come to the Senate or been reviewed or amended by them yet. You do realize Obama is a Senator, not a Representative, and this was before a vote the House... right?
For you and Destor to be bellyaching about this now and trying to pin it on Obama, again, it's either incredibly goofy, or deliberate Freeping and provocateurs.
Considering you both claimed to be Hillary supporters before and always seem to be alligned with whatever is dividing Democrats or poisoning the well, not surprising.
June 20, 2008 8:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Koz is very funny. Anybody who doesn't debate using Koz approved language is a "freeper" or something. Okay. The Kozmonaut must deliver his lectures, I guess. It's a tiresome routine.
June 20, 2008 8:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I said why I consider your posts de facto Freeping, either deliberate or from sheer uninformed goofiness.
For example, you continually seek to poison the well or advocate for strategies that would produce spectacular failures. I've laid out examples, in detail.
June 20, 2008 8:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have noticed over the years that the only strategy that never gets tried is being real Democrats and standing up to the reactionary forces in our government and society. Always there are those gloomy voices giving the sage advice not to fight too hard, not to be too principled because of the doom that awaits you if you actually stand for something and stand your ground on any issue. This is what I hear coming from you Kozmik and I think it's too bad too because this is the very strategy that has created all the defeat, capitulation and surrender on the part of Democrats for nigh on 30 years now. I submit that since your strategy spells defeat in any event that we go whole hog and instead of going out with a whimper we either win the day (for once) or at least we go down standing on our two feet like free men and women instead of on our knees as your strategy would keep us for another 30 years! It's time for our side to stand for something and not back down.
June 20, 2008 10:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, I'm touched by your poetry, and slogans. Truly.
Feel free to discuss real world policy issues any time.
June 20, 2008 10:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wold be most interested if your chronological age matches the level of your personal attacks which seem to be in the adolescent range friend. Your attacks are unwarranted and pointless. You seem to resort to it out of frustration when others do not concede that you are right. Pity.
June 20, 2008 11:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Again, feel free to put forward a more viable strategy and option than bumper sticker talk of "courage."
June 21, 2008 1:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sometimes Koz, courage is more than a bumper sticker. Sometimes it is what counts. This is one of those times. Why waste words when this one says all one needs to say about what Democrats need instead of lies and deception? Cowardice rules the day trying to disquise itself as "compromise" with respect to this bill and that's all there is to it.
Courage could have won the day, but that entails standing up for something in the face of right wing criticism and the threat of cutting off the corporate money spigot Congressional Democrats are dependent upon. Courage clearly is something most of our Democratic members of Congress lack including Pelosi, Reid, Emmanuel, Obama and a lot of members who are not blue dogs. They are simply cowards who would rather enable tyranny than stand for freedom, the Constitution and the rights of our people. It pays better. Just look at their campaign coffers. You'll find the sad truth there.
June 21, 2008 12:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
More vague rhetoric.
Still waiting on you to propose a better scenario, that's viable, and produces a better outcome. Any time now. Why still dodging?
June 21, 2008 8:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama was quick to brag that he was against the authorization vote and that that was a MAJOR reason people should vote for him. Namely, that he is not afraid to be in the minority and vote his conscience,
You Kozmik are saying that if he votes against a bill that allows retroactive immunity, he would be involved in a colossal defeat. That's pure crap. It would show the people of the United States that he is a man of principle like Feingold and others. Instead he is an illogical bullshitter.
I suspect he is going to vote for such a bill simply because he is afraid of rocking the boat. That's CHANGE YOU VANNOT BELIEVE IN. IT is the same old crap.
June 22, 2008 1:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have to add, the bellyaching and whining is terribly detrimental and counterproductive.
We need to get into the habit of thinking strategically, seriously, to WIN these battles.
Not just stand up symbolic protest votes, or pander, or belly ache, and piss and moan about how "courageous" we could be, and pat ourselves on the back for fighting the good fight while ultimately losing.
It's not about "courage" or symbolic protest votes. It's about winning a larger majority in Congress and retaking the WH.
Some people on the left who think we're going to accomplish that without pragmatism, or taking some some losses along the way, or overnight without incrementalism, are utterly delusional.
All great leaders have made the point first and foremost: If you want to be a help to a movement, you have to elevate yourself first. Get informed on issues. Spread the word. Be pragmatic and smart about issues, acting wisely not randomly or emotionally. Take some responsibility for outcomes.
Don't just whine and agitate and then piss and moan when nothing changes.
June 20, 2008 8:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's hard to win the battles when your only strategy is preemptive unconditional surrender.
June 20, 2008 8:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, and it's pretty hard to win battles when the deepest though you've had on a subject fits on a bumper sticker, or when you're continually trying to drive wedges in the party and poison the well, as is the case with you and Destor.
June 20, 2008 9:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Like Tonto said to the Lone Ranger, what do you mean by 'we' white man? Frankly, it is you who is the fifth columnist here, since you appear to put the interests of the Democratic party above the Constitutional rights of all Americans.
Despite your caricatured stereotyping of those many who disagree with you here, many of us have been on this issue from the beginning, not just 'bellyaching and whining,' but by writing our elected officials, supporting the EFF, contributing to pols on the right side of this issue, etc. Your elitist attitude and arrogant dismissals carry more than a whiff of why many left-leaning people don't want to get mixed up with the Democratic party.
It's especially laughable when you act as if 'thinking strategically' is what would have won this bill--I guess you have to say something when you are unwilling to accept that this bill was bought and paid for by the telco industry, against strong public opinion. You also hide behind wonky arguments about FISA, yet are mum about the TI provisions, which would make Nixon blush. Are you really so earnest as to believe that Mukasey et al are going to have even one second of hesitation before sending 'get out of jail free' cards to the telcos that no one but the judge will ever see?
Speaking of Constitutional issues, you sure seem dismissive of these concerns, however, your opinion opposes those of Jonathan Turley, among many others, whose resume surely dwarfs your own, and whose opinion cannot be so easily dismissed as mere hyperbole.
Stockholm syndrome's a bitch, huh? Good luck keeping the other prisoners in line, and the deck chairs in order.
June 20, 2008 9:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
More blather.
The democratic process, the art of politics, is the basis of our constitutional democracy, you twit.
You can't say you want to uphold democracy and the constitution without any understanding of the way in which it actually functions. (duh!)
June 20, 2008 10:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
The 'art of politics?' Whatever, you DNC lapdog. I suppose if you're sucking off the Washington teat that it's in your interest to pretend that this bill was on the up and up. Otherwise, it has to be your internal strategy to avoid cognitive dissonance, and pretend that your lame champions didn't take the pipe and run with the green.
Speaking of that, I will grant you an earlier point--Pelosi is not really a Blue Dog, but a Green Dog--like the other Dem cavers, she went with the money and keeping her spot at the trough. Being a cuckold ain't so bad when you're getting paid, right?
For bonus points, why don't you tell us why Kucinich's impeachment bill is so impractical and counterproductive?
Finally, please inform us barbarians what the compromise is here, since Boehner and other Rs have already been crowing that this is 'more that the White House hoped for?'
June 20, 2008 11:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
TRANSLATION:
Anything posted here that doesn't agree with me is "blather" and bumper sticker slogans.
June 20, 2008 11:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Still waiting on any one of you to put forth a better scenario towards a better outcome. And not one of you can.
All you guys have is bellyaching.
June 21, 2008 8:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Scenario: Obama cvomes out against the bill .
Bill Passes anyway
Obama shows he is capable of going against the whores.
People respect Obama as a strong leader.
I will repeat the best interpretation you can give to Obama's crazy reasoning why he said he will vote for the bill even if it has retroactive immunity in it. "Well, duh, the bill is going to pass even though I'm against it. I don't want to be a loser, so I will vote for the bill even though I'm against it". What a freaking joke!!
June 22, 2008 1:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Representative Holt,
Thank you for following through with what you said you were going to do. Your opposition matters. Would that your colleagues had the same courage and understanding.
June 20, 2008 7:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
That was stilted. How about just... "thanks."
June 20, 2008 8:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you Reps McCollum, Oberstar, Ellison and Waltz. I will remember in November.
June 20, 2008 8:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Congressman,
I agree with your statements about this terrible piece of legislation. Clearly these problems and more are true of this horrendous bill. But if that is true, please explain why any member of the Democratic Party and specifically the nominee for President can, with a straight face, so boldly spin the weak tale they are telling about how this "compromise" aka capitulation is the best we can do?
I'd really like to know why so many Democrats are so spineless and care so little about our country and our Constitution. I'll anxiously await your response.
June 20, 2008 9:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, you've demonstrated you don't want to know, and lack intellectual curiosity about how politics function, or what goes into the calculus of these decisions.
What you've demonstrated is that you want to spout bumper sticker indignation, stomp your feet and cry, and pat yourself on the back for your courageousness.
June 20, 2008 10:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
The only one I see stomping their feet and crying my friend is you. What I'm reading is a lot of people who are angry that they have been betrayed. Most of the people here are commenting on what has happened in Washington and you comment only on how you think the people who disagree with you are wrong.
June 20, 2008 10:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
"my friend" ??
Let out your inner McCain, freeper.
June 20, 2008 10:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think he meant it the same way...
June 21, 2008 1:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Given your habit of namecalling and general discourtesy, I can understand that you are not used to being addressed as "friend" but try it out. You might actually get used to civilized discourse... friend.
June 21, 2008 1:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why are so many Democrats spineless and care so little about our country and our Constitution?
Maybe this is a question best asked of voters since we're the ones who decide which reps we put in office and how long they stay there.
This voter says that the our representatives will find a way to get things done or scram when they know they'll be held accountable if they abandon the interests of the electorate.
Instead, we have given our representatives permission to fail us on every front. (see as evidence our empty treasury, pay-more-and-die-earlier-health-care, money in elections, global warming on steroids, third-rate k-12, tainted food and products, IOU's to China, wide-open borders, etc.). What's the consequence? A little voter whining and most get reelected.
Many reps would quickly figure out how to win an occasional fight if more voters actively monitored them and voted them out when called for. There is just no good excuse for the chronic government failure we've got when the great majority of Americans have similar interests and agree upon many basic issues.
Perhaps we should focus much more on the Democratic leadership and what Democrats in Congress deliver as a group. In this case, the Democrats as a group gave enough votes to deliver what the telecoms wanted. They do this a lot and the pattern says plenty, even if you don't subscribe to the idea that results are the best evidence of intentions. Pelosi as leader must be held accountable for this. It is nothing more than a suspicious cop out to repeatedly "fight" with a sure-to-lose minority instead of finding a creative way get something done.
What are the chances a Congress run like ours even attracts real leaders who know how to fight for anything. The record shows that most in Congress just do as told by the donors who suck their dignity and power. It's like having a drunk at every wheel on the road. How should any leaders we do have make changes without the help of a knowledgeable electorate that takes in more than 15 minutes of CNN misinformation a day?
All that said, I appreciate Holt's detailed, informative post here. He's done exactly what a smsart representative would do before it is too late: empower voters with key facts so we are better able to ensure decent results.
I conclude that publicly funded elections and voter education is the only answer.
"A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce, or a tragedy, or perhaps both."
---James Madison
June 21, 2008 10:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Esteemed Rep. Holt:
Thank you for your vote. I won't be giving any money to the DCCC anymore, so I'll divvy that up with people who stand FOR the constitution, the rule of law (as opposed to a dictatorial, corrupt AG) and against the creeping authoritarianism that the House leadership is so terribly fond of these days.
It seems hubris is a bi-partisan affliction. I don't know how the 105 Dems who voted for this bill can call themselves Democrats (or democrats for that matter) with a straight face, but somehow they manage to. Time for new leadership!
Thanks again.
June 20, 2008 9:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can you explain the behavior of the House Democratic leadership?
Why would they push this legislation through even though a majority of the Democratic caucus opposed it?
The behavior of the leadership and Nancy Pelosi's strange wishy-washy comments undermine a clear party identity based on principle.
June 20, 2008 10:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Because a lot of conservative Bluedog Dems were siding with Republicans to vote for it. So, leadership could try to obstruct it, which would have been a fiasco, or take the best possible compromise.
June 20, 2008 10:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
obstruct it,.. or take the best possible compromise.
Or the third option, send the bill to the appropriate committee, *have hearings, and invite the telecoms to chat. This option has the attractive attribute that it accomplishes transparency whatever the outcome of the floor vote.
We may still, I suppose, hope that Leahy understands this option.
*That, after all, is what deliberative bodies do.
June 21, 2008 1:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
An excellent idea for a teaching moment to lay out how far we've progressed in converting a garrison state into a security state and how far we are from the goal of establishing a police state -- if we're not there already.
But Chairman'd by Rockefeller (cowering behind his scrawled memo of 7/17/2003) and Reyes ("Al-Qa'eda is what – Sunni or Shia?"), the idea never had much of a chance.
June 21, 2008 7:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
"You're talking about predominately?" the congressman then asked, before venturing: "Predominantly – probably Shi'ite."
Hey, he had a 50-50 shot. On the SAT, they always tell you to guess if you can get it down to one out of three.
As for Rockefeller, when his girlfriend took that cellphone picture of him with the ball gag in his mouth, and IMed it to her cousin who was "vacationing" on a yacht that was docked in Dubai, the jig was up. (Well, maybe if she hadn't encrypted the damn pictue, it wouldn't have attracted attention. She probably hadn't heard how they can bust any encryption by freezing (literally, with liquid nitrogen) the disc head.)
Now that Cheney has that picture framed in his top desk drawer, he also has Rockie's stones in a jar.
June 21, 2008 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
A sad day for our democracy.
And Koz, fwiw, sometimes fighting for/on principles is the pragmatic thing to do.
More corporate capitulation by the D's. Every time I start to think the party is on the right track I watch them derail.
June 21, 2008 1:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Koz? You a Joe Lieberman fan? My Junior Senator tends to be politically expedient too...
You seem willing to sacrifice our freedoms for partisan political reasons.
June 21, 2008 1:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
I too just want to thank you for voting against this.
June 21, 2008 3:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm just typing my concerns about the bill passed yesterday mainly to see if kozmik will type something wacky in reply. Everyone else stay focused on the main issue - our 4th amendment rights - while I divert the koz.
June 21, 2008 12:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
One important question:
If you were now the Democratic nominee for President of the United States, would you stand on principle when this vote comes up before the Senate? Or would you stay focused on winning the election even if it meant losing support among voters on the left?
June 21, 2008 12:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
winning the election or pissing off the left is not the choice.
It's just the scenario that is convenient for the cowards to use as an excuse when they have betrayed their principles and their past positions. We've seen this excuse a million times before. The Democrats have, time after time, misplayed the whole "war on terror" and "national security" thiing.
This exact set of excuses is what enabled Bush to invade Iraq illegally.
The congressional Democrats who supported the illegal invastion claimed that while they would have preferred something a bit better, they got a good compromise "with safeguards". Their rationale was that if they didn't captiulate to Bush and Rove then the issue would be used against them in the fall election that year. This scenario is no different and no less disasterous in terms of further enabling the police state direction the nation has been headed in now for seven years.
It's all too obvious that is what is going on. Some choose to act as though it is not, but just as the foolish choice these same Democrats made about the Iraq war authorization is now universally recongized as bad, so this outrageous capitulation to evil will be recognized as well. Same fundamental political problem, same bad solution offered (unconditional surrender before even engaging in battle), same excuses given, same disasterous outcome on it's way.
June 21, 2008 1:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, we know. You're a principled Democrat with unmatched personal integrity and you're pissed. The question remains, however.
June 23, 2008 3:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah. Not one of the complainers have put forward a viable strategy towards a better outcome. It's just whining and vague rhetoric.
Over the years, I've noticed some posters are more interested in process and informing themselves on the facts to form viable strategies, while other posters are more concerned with vague bumper sticker rhetoric and stirring up shit.
I find the latter group always turn out to be Freepers or Naderite types, are always bellyaching and poisoning the well, while claiming to be so heroic and courageous. AFAICT they never accomplish anything, not positive anyways.
While the former group tend to indicate the direction of politics and real reform and coalition building to actually pass legislation.
June 21, 2008 8:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, there's no doubt from your self-serve attitude that you count yourself among the latter group--goody for you; Now, please tell us what 'real reform' has been wrought by the Pelosi/Reid leadership? Your points about the FISA bill passing could be said to be true about any of the Dem's failures of the past few year--from this point, however, it's not pragmatism, but appeasement.
So, from all this appeasement, what political capital has been gained by the Dems, in exchange for their capitulation?
Call us what you want--from my perspective, you're suffering from Alan Colmes disease; the earnest wonk who shows up at a knife fight with his 'Robert's Rules of Order' tucked into his shirt pocket.
You're also a 'good Democrat' because you have a gift of eloquence in explaining why it's all so logical that the Dems lost...again. Great job skill, but what does it do for the people of this country who your party is letting down?
June 21, 2008 11:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I would also like to that you for your vote, and, if time permits, I would like you to see why I disapprove of this bill.
I can't thank you enough.
June 22, 2008 8:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
there seems to be a theme here that i'm seeing...idealism vs realism...when idealism wins, the result is quite ugly...
do you really think W or anyone else in the gvmnt gives a cr*p about listening to your conversation with uncle mo in toledo? seriously? do you realize how few people there actually is who listen to intercepted calls? they can't keep up with real terrorist threats, forget about you calling in 100 bucks on the broncos or calling your weed guy for a bag...
why did the intel cmtee (controlled by dems) vote 11-2 in favor of immunity?
come on people, WAKE UP!
June 24, 2008 12:10 AM | Reply | Permalink